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Is Ben Carson Right? #183798
05/25/17 09:33 PM
05/25/17 09:33 PM
T
The Wanderer  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2022

Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 545
Central Alberta
I hope this is the right forum section to post this in? I did my best guess. Please move if it actually is in the wrong section. smile

It appears that Dr Ben Carson is placing the blame for "being poor" on the poor.
Quote:
On Wednesday night, Housing and Urban Development Secretary Ben Carson — whose budget to help low-income households would be cut by more than $6 billion next year — added his own thoughts. He said in a radio interview that "poverty to a large extent is also a state of mind."

Carson — who himself grew up in poverty to become a widely acclaimed neurosurgeon — said people with the "right mind set" can have everything taken away from them, and they'll pull themselves up. He believes the converse is true as well. "You take somebody with the wrong mind-set, you can give them everything in the world (and) they'll work their way right back down to the bottom," Carson said.
Being Poor Is A State Of Mind??

To what degree is Carson right? To what degree is Carson wrong? Is there some happy "middle road" here? Would the Bible support Carson's statement on "being poor?"


"The worst foes of my spiritual life have never been hostile circumstance."

"There is always a little bit of light" (Micah 7:8)
https://www.lightintheclouds.net/word

Sincerely, IN Christ; and THROUGH The Spirit


- The Wanderer
Re: Is Ben Carson Right? [Re: The Wanderer] #183810
05/26/17 09:25 AM
05/26/17 09:25 AM
E
Elle  Offline
Active Member 2019
Died February 12, 2019

2500+ Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
That's a typical Arminian-SDA mindset. Not surprised. Nevertheless, we should pray for Carson to come to the Lord's understanding.

My view of poverty.... it is the Lord that makes the poor via His judgment that brings calamities on the land and by putting Beastly Empires over us that "eat grass" (==men) (Dan 4:25,32,33; 1Pet 1:24 "for all flesh is as grass").

Like the last Beastly Empire is Mystery Babylon who created this amazing DEBT system.....that made all Nations extremely POOR. Carson wants to blame it on the people??? I guess he still doesn't understand how the current economic system works. see discussion & video here.


Blessings
Re: Is Ben Carson Right? [Re: Elle] #183811
05/26/17 01:53 PM
05/26/17 01:53 PM
T
The Wanderer  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2022

Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 545
Central Alberta
Originally Posted By: Elle
That's a typical Arminian-SDA mindset. Not surprised. Nevertheless, we should pray for Carson to come to the Lord's understanding.

My view of poverty.... it is the Lord that makes the poor via His judgment that brings calamities on the land and by putting Beastly Empires over us that "eat grass" (==men) (Dan 4:25,32,33; 1Pet 1:24 "for all flesh is as grass").

Like the last Beastly Empire is Mystery Babylon who created this amazing DEBT system.....that made all Nations extremely POOR. Carson wants to blame it on the people??? I guess he still doesn't understand how the current economic system works. see discussion & video here.
So you are disagreeing with Carson and saying that "poverty" is not a state of mind?

Myself, I certainly do not agree with him. he seems really out of touch on the issue.


"The worst foes of my spiritual life have never been hostile circumstance."

"There is always a little bit of light" (Micah 7:8)
https://www.lightintheclouds.net/word

Sincerely, IN Christ; and THROUGH The Spirit


- The Wanderer
Re: Is Ben Carson Right? [Re: The Wanderer] #183817
05/26/17 03:32 PM
05/26/17 03:32 PM
E
Elle  Offline
Active Member 2019
Died February 12, 2019

2500+ Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
Originally Posted By: Elle
That's a typical Arminian-SDA mindset. Not surprised. Nevertheless, we should pray for Carson to come to the Lord's understanding.

My view of poverty.... it is the Lord that makes the poor via His judgment that brings calamities on the land and by putting Beastly Empires over us that "eat grass" (==men) (Dan 4:25,32,33; 1Pet 1:24 "for all flesh is as grass").

Like the last Beastly Empire is Mystery Babylon who created this amazing DEBT system.....that made all Nations extremely POOR. Carson wants to blame it on the people??? I guess he still doesn't understand how the current economic system works. see discussion & video here.

Originally Posted By: The Wanderer
So you are disagreeing with Carson and saying that "poverty" is not a state of mind?

Correct. I disagree with Carson... He's basically saying that it's the people fault if we are poor....because we didn't make the right decision like he experienced. Carson believes anyone can get out of poverty like he did. He came from a poor family and "choose" his way to being a Neuro Surgeon.

This is a typical Arminian mindset that we SDAs are champion of. There's some truth to this. And yes Carson did come out of poverty however, thanks to his mom and the Lord's work. Without the Lord intervening Carson wouldn't of been the exception or one of "the chosen one" (well at least chosen to get thru the 1st veil...there's still 2 other veils to go thru).

I agree with the Wanderer that he's not balance nor realistic in his outlook because he is not embracing the whole truth about this. The first one, by which is inexcusable and shameful....since he's in a leadership position in the US Government in helping the poor --- he should have gotten the a basic knowledge on how our economic system really works. From his respond....he doesn't even have that preliminary understanding. And he's in that seat of responsibility to help the poor???? He needs our prayers!

The other biggest truth Carson statement ignores is that the Lord Sovereignty is above man's daily choices. (Rom 9)

Originally Posted By: The Wanderer
Myself, I certainly do not agree with him. he seems really out of touch on the issue.
Ok??? you didn't explain to us why you do not agree with Carson. How is he out of touch on this issue?


Blessings
Re: Is Ben Carson Right? [Re: The Wanderer] #183825
05/26/17 08:15 PM
05/26/17 08:15 PM
T
The Wanderer  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2022

Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 545
Central Alberta
It might take me a day or so to get back to this topic. I will look forward to it.


"The worst foes of my spiritual life have never been hostile circumstance."

"There is always a little bit of light" (Micah 7:8)
https://www.lightintheclouds.net/word

Sincerely, IN Christ; and THROUGH The Spirit


- The Wanderer
Re: Is Ben Carson Right? [Re: Elle] #183829
05/26/17 09:10 PM
05/26/17 09:10 PM
K
kland  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

5500+ Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,416
Midland
Originally Posted By: Elle
This is a typical Arminian mindset that we SDAs are champion of. There's some truth to this. And yes Carson did come out of poverty however, thanks to his mom and the Lord's work. Without the Lord intervening Carson wouldn't of been the exception or one of "the chosen one" (well at least chosen to get thru the 1st veil...there's still 2 other veils to go thru).

Are you saying the reason people are poor is because their mom and the Lord fail to intervene?

Re: Is Ben Carson Right? [Re: kland] #183830
05/26/17 09:42 PM
05/26/17 09:42 PM
E
Elle  Offline
Active Member 2019
Died February 12, 2019

2500+ Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: Elle
This is a typical Arminian mindset that we SDAs are champion of. There's some truth to this. And yes Carson did come out of poverty however, thanks to his mom and the Lord's work. Without the Lord intervening Carson wouldn't of been the exception or one of "the chosen one" (well at least chosen to get thru the 1st veil...there's still 2 other veils to go thru).

Are you saying the reason people are poor is because their mom and the Lord fail to intervene?

No I said that Carson path was that. Not many experienced "getting out of poverty" like Carson have. Actually, most did not.

Poverty is increasing in all nations and will increase further as the current economic system further crashes and if the DEBT can get's kick further down the road without being address. Reality is ... all Western countries are in DEBT above their eye balls no matter if some individuals inside the country stricked it rich and has a successful story like Carson.

My point is Carson view is very narrow and not balance and I've listed 3 reasons in the above 2 posts up to now why I think Carson view is not balance and not realistic.

But you kland, from what I recall from other discussion....you probably agree with Carson. That's ok. We don't need to agree on every thing.


Blessings
Re: Is Ben Carson Right? [Re: Elle] #183833
05/27/17 12:35 AM
05/27/17 12:35 AM
T
The Wanderer  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2022

Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 545
Central Alberta
Originally Posted By: Elle
Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: Elle
This is a typical Arminian mindset that we SDAs are champion of. There's some truth to this. And yes Carson did come out of poverty however, thanks to his mom and the Lord's work. Without the Lord intervening Carson wouldn't of been the exception or one of "the chosen one" (well at least chosen to get thru the 1st veil...there's still 2 other veils to go thru).

Are you saying the reason people are poor is because their mom and the Lord fail to intervene?

No I said that Carson path was that. Not many experienced "getting out of poverty" like Carson have. Actually, most did not.

Poverty is increasing in all nations and will increase further as the current economic system further crashes and if the DEBT can get's kick further down the road without being address. Reality is ... all Western countries are in DEBT above their eye balls no matter if some individuals inside the country stricked it rich and has a successful story like Carson.

My point is Carson view is very narrow and not balance and
I agree; and I think the multi-million dollar mansion he has recently purchased has softened him up the wrong way. He has obviously lost touch with the reality of poverty. And why does he have to call them "poor people?" Why not just say "low income" people or some such thing that does not denigrate.


"The worst foes of my spiritual life have never been hostile circumstance."

"There is always a little bit of light" (Micah 7:8)
https://www.lightintheclouds.net/word

Sincerely, IN Christ; and THROUGH The Spirit


- The Wanderer
Re: Is Ben Carson Right? [Re: The Wanderer] #183834
05/27/17 01:40 AM
05/27/17 01:40 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
There is no reason to use the freedom of speech on a Christian forum to simply bash someone who is not here to defend himself. His words are sufficiently general and open to interpretation that you cannot know of a certainty what he meant with them. However, I have a mind to be supportive of him for multiple reasons.

1) My grandfather, in the wisdom of his later years, used to say "poor people have poor ways." I didn't immediately understand this. Life experience has taught me how wise he was.

2) Oprah Winfrey had a case some years ago to put the theory to the test. I do not remember all of the specifics, particularly the monetary amounts, so forgive me if I turn out the wrong figures--but the story itself should still have merit. She, being black herself, wondered at the poverty of most black people, and wanted to help them somehow. She had no intention of conducting a social experiment--she simply wanted to make a difference. In any case, she thought they were poor simply because they had insufficient funds to make a good start. So she found a family upon whom she chose to exercise her philanthropy, and gave them well over $100,000--maybe half a million (but, again, I don't remember the figure clearly). It was far more money than the family had ever had access to before, in any case. If I recall, Oprah was chagrined to find that in a short time (under two years?), that family was dirt poor again.

3) I have personally witnessed people on food coupons buying microwave dinners and snack foods. It goes without saying that such foods are neither the most healthful, nor the most economical. Frugality seems foreign to them. You will notice that virtually all such "poor" people have a television and some satellite or cable subscription. Many have a nice car and/or a home upon which they must make monthly payments. Credit cards get used to buy things they think they must have right now, with the interest required later keeping them in their state of poverty.

4) Consider the lottery winners. How many are still wealthy ten years later? On the other hand, some millionaires have lost everything and gained it all back afterward. "Poor people have poor ways."

Dr. Carson was once poor. He likely has friends and family among the poor. He has had plenty of time to consider their condition. Middle class folk passing judgment on him without any consideration for his reasons for saying what he did does nothing to cast mud on him. The mud sticks to the hands of those who have attempted to sling it.

The Bible says many things about the poor. Among them are the following:

Originally Posted By: The Bible
Save when there shall be no poor among you; for the LORD shall greatly bless thee in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance to possess it: (Deuteronomy 15:4, KJV)

"However, there will be no poor among you, since the LORD will surely bless you in the land which the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance to possess, (Deuteronomy 15:4, NASB)

He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the LORD's, and he hath set the world upon them. (1 Samuel 2:8, KJV)

For he shall deliver the needy when he crieth; the poor also, and him that hath no helper. (Psalms 72:12, KJV)


He shall spare the poor and needy, and shall save the souls of the needy. (Psalms 72:13, KJV)

Yet setteth he the poor on high from affliction, and maketh him families like a flock. (Psalms 107:41, KJV)

He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth the needy out of the dunghill; (Psalms 113:7, KJV)

I will abundantly bless her provision: I will satisfy her poor with bread. (Psalms 132:15, KJV)

I know that the LORD will maintain the cause of the afflicted, and the right of the poor. (Psalms 140:12, KJV)

...so much to Elle's thought that God makes the poor poor. God wants to bless, not impoverish. Of course, God does say this too:

Originally Posted By: The Bible
The LORD maketh poor, and maketh rich: he bringeth low, and lifteth up. (1 Samuel 2:7, KJV)


I would take that in about the same context as Isaiah 45:7 where God takes responsibility for light and darkness, good and evil, because the Bible is clear that the poor have some responsibility for their own condition.

Originally Posted By: The Bible
He becometh poor that dealeth with a slack hand: but the hand of the diligent maketh rich. (Proverbs 10:4, KJV)

There is that scattereth, and yet increaseth; and there is that withholdeth more than is meet, but it tendeth to poverty. (Proverbs 11:24, KJV)

The ransom of a man's life are his riches: but the poor heareth not rebuke. (Proverbs 13:8, KJV)

Poverty and shame shall be to him that refuseth instruction: but he that regardeth reproof shall be honoured. (Proverbs 13:18, KJV)

Love not sleep, lest thou come to poverty; open thine eyes, and thou shalt be satisfied with bread. (Proverbs 20:13, KJV)

He that loveth pleasure shall be a poor man: he that loveth wine and oil shall not be rich. (Proverbs 21:17, KJV)

The rich ruleth over the poor, and the borrower is servant to the lender. (Proverbs 22:7, KJV)

For the drunkard and the glutton shall come to poverty: and drowsiness shall clothe a man with rags. (Proverbs 23:21, KJV)

He that tilleth his land shall have plenty of bread: but he that followeth after vain persons shall have poverty enough. (Proverbs 28:19, KJV)

He that hasteth to be rich hath an evil eye, and considereth not that poverty shall come upon him. (Proverbs 28:22, KJV)

He that giveth unto the poor shall not lack: but he that hideth his eyes shall have many a curse. (Proverbs 28:27, KJV)

The righteous considereth the cause of the poor: but the wicked regardeth not to know it. (Proverbs 29:7, KJV)

A poor man that oppresseth the poor is like a sweeping rain which leaveth no food. (Proverbs 28:3, KJV)


From these texts, we can get a summary of the Biblical causes of poverty as follows:

  • Dealing with a slack hand (careless/slow worker)
  • Withholding unnecessarily
  • Not heeding rebuke
  • Refusing instruction
  • Loving sleep
  • Loving pleasure
  • Being a drunkard
  • Being a glutton
  • Hasting to be rich
  • Hiding one's eyes from the needs of the poor


All of the above could easily be classed as part of the state of mind or character of the person. In other words, Carson is right on the money. Poverty IS related to one's own choices and mindset. Are there exceptions? Indubitably. For example, I am poor by American standards. I am not poor because of lack of work, nor for loving sleep. This week I literally worked myself sick, and am still fighting the fever as I rest this Sabbath. I am poor simply because of my sacrificial service as a missionary to people who have far less than I do.

Enough said.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Is Ben Carson Right? [Re: Green Cochoa] #183835
05/27/17 05:29 AM
05/27/17 05:29 AM
T
The Wanderer  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2022

Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 545
Central Alberta
Green; your use of "freedom of speech" in the above post, is quite out of context. Mister Carson has gone on public record as saying what was posted above; and no matter what you say, it raises questions. I could have easily quoted all the same stuff to you. You have not really proved anything here.


"The worst foes of my spiritual life have never been hostile circumstance."

"There is always a little bit of light" (Micah 7:8)
https://www.lightintheclouds.net/word

Sincerely, IN Christ; and THROUGH The Spirit


- The Wanderer
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