Carson's statement is general and like Green says can be taken differently. It does appear to have an element of insensitivity to it but I agree with Green that we should give our brother the benefit of the doubt and put the best construction on it. In doing that we'll be promoting what I think is motivating Carson and is key to improving the lot of the poor - a positive mind set and a determination to rise above apparently insurmountable obstacles and to be grateful regardless of our lot in life.

Here's Green's Biblical summary of the poor that is severely cherry-picked one-sided towards his personal opinion; for he is incapable (due to scales of blindness) to bring out the whole truth of God expression on this subject in scripture.


The problem with this type of blinded bias & narrow view, is it is not realistic and balance. People don't buy into that anymore. Notice on his 10 listed elements, that the first 9, the fault & responsibility is put on the poor.

What I find quite interesting and probably God's touch in this is what Green's last & 10th element of his list says. I would like to have the Biblical source of this. The 10th element on Green's list is not towards the poor; but those outside of poverty (or those who judges the poor)....these people are Hiding one's eyes from the needs of the poor. This can be taken in many ways, but the way I read it... that most people "hide their eyes"(are blinded) to the reality of the problem of the poor.

Here's a partial list (in addition to Green's 10[really 2] items list) what I recall scripture saying on the subject of the poor :

1-the Spiritual leaders ... oppressed, stole, fleeced, the people (thus became poor).
2-the Spiritual leaders ... didn't teach the truth to the people-poor...so they are left in ignorance of God's laws that led to problems and poverty.
3-the Spiritual leaders .... didn't give the poor justice in their courts...basically the poor doesn't have a voice.
4-the Spiritual leaders .... didn't feed or protect the needy like the laws commanded them to do. God gave many laws to protect the poor so there would always be plenty to eat in the land for the poor so to prevent them from losing every thing when something happens -- like war, the death of the sons or husband, famine in the land, etc.... So if these laws are not followed by the leaders...well this will result in more poor in the land.
5-Nations ruled by Pagan Barbaric Kings .... oppresses the people...thus increased the poor population in their land.
6-God's Judgment upon a nation whether Gentile or the Israelites that comes on them.... destroys possession, buildings, homes, orchards, fields, death of men, etc.... that produces more poors.
7-A natural disaster that destroys possession like crops, housing, kills people, ....produces more poors.

Green why didn't you bring these elements that is also found all over in scriptures? That would of been a more honest objectional and credible stand. I do believe that the New-Creation Man that is in you will succeed. Jesus will not fail you or anyone in this forum. Blindness...is blindness. I had many scales of blindness fall from my eyes just since 2017 began. I couldn't believe it how blinded I was....all those years. God never cease to impress me. We cannot heal blindness from ourself. Scripture says that it is God that makes the blind, and He's the only one that can heal them too. When the soon rain will come, I do believe many things will change and many blindness scales from our eyes will be removed. We have many....so be ready. We do and will always resist the processs...but the scales will fall anyway and it will be liberating when it happens. That's when we enter more into the true rest and joy of God.

I also do agree with the Wanderer comment about Green's post :


Carson made a public statement and is now in a leadership role to serve "the poor people" in the nation of the USA. no small thing...He needs to be constructively criticized by the people that he represents if he get's offline. This is totally different if we talk about John Smith, that serve no public function, and is not a member of this forum that cannot defend himself.

However, regarding Mark's comment, I do agree on what is bolded and underlined below.

Yes, I do agree with that. I do think Carson is sincere in what he says. All of us have our own "blind spots" and I believe Carson's personal experience and having the typical SDA Arminian point of view and trying to accomplish Trump's goal that wants to bring back jobs (that the former governments gave our jobs to off-shore countries) in the USA ... has cataract-ed his eyes on this issue.

I do want Carson to be successful and that's why I believe he needs all of our prayers so that he can come to the truth and have a very balance & knowledgeable outlook and thus be very effective in his calling.

Elle,

As I understood things, the opening post in this topic did not address itself to Carson's views about how to treat the poor, but rather his views about why they are poor. I am certain no one posting here, nor Dr. Carson himself, would say poor people should be treated unfairly (see James chapter 2), defrauded of just wages (see James chapter 5), or thought to be less in value to those more fortunate (see Matthew 5; consider the "Widow's Mite").

If you wish to turn from Dr. Carson's views to my own, perhaps a new topic is in order--but I will spare you the trouble: I believe poor people should be treated just as considerately as anyone else, and, yes, the Bible teaches this.

Regarding the text you think addresses the rich in place of the poor, perhaps you haven't considered the full evidence.



Firstly, you do not know what you are saying. You began by chiming into this discussion with accusations toward Dr. Ben Carson, a very distinguished and respectable person whom you should have been more hesitant to criticize. Now you have turned your accusative sword upon me for having defended him? You have made false accusations. May God forgive you, for you have certainly done so in ignorance. You do not know me. You do not know how this very month, I put nearly half of my meager stipend into the medical care of a poor widow who lives nearby. You do not know how many months I have gone without pay to rescue another poor widow in my community from poverty so that she could provide for her three young children. You do not know how many times I have given food to the beggars who came to me. You do not know how my heart yearns for the poor, and how often I am pained to be unable to help them more. But I am poor.

The Bible says:



Even poor people are held to account for how they treat others among the poor.

Which are??? ...please be specific!

Elle,

I'm in no mood to argue. If you do not see that you have accused me of dishonesty (for not including more Bible texts--when I'm the one who has made the most use of Bible verses in this discussion); of blindness (see your opening sentence and other portions of your post); and of hiding my eyes to the reality of the problem of the poor, who am I to open your eyes?

I do note that my last post seems to have had some effect. You edited your post and removed the latter false accusation before posting your question asking me to point it out. I must say, that does appear a little dishonest.

Here's what you first posted:


And that was the primary false accusation that I felt you should be aware of. Note that I did not wish to make known my selfless acts to promote me. I am nothing. I only felt you should be aware of how perilous your ignorant accusations were in the sight of God, and this illustration of how you misunderstood me should help you understand that you may have equally misjudged Dr. Carson.

I think this is the only point I will address for now. making an accusation like this before you know the actual details of why i said it is not the best approach. I can agree that his words were general enough, one could take it several ways. I used to have respect for Carson, but that has changed. The one thing that I will say is that the remarks of Carson's which I called into question are disparaging remarks. The only thing i cannot say at this time is, was it intentional, or unintentional, on Carson's part? I am currently looking into this more to hopefully figure it out.

There is a much bigger question here. Why are people "poor?" What causes that? Will "poor people" be saved then, if it is their fault and it is because they are not in the right mindset? So far, I find Dr Carson's approach to be disparaging, and harmful to the cause of the poor.

I was hoping this topic could also be used to discuss more of the "bigger question" here. I will gladly retract anything I am proven wrong about.

No... not because you didn't quote "more" biblical texts because you said that this was a "summary of the Biblical causes of poverty" ... that's by far a true statement.....re-read what you've said below:


What I think was "dishonest" (as you had to skim over 200+ Biblical text about the poor to pull out the ones that favored your stand) is this list was by far a true representation of the Biblical cause of poverty. I came up with 7 additional ones from the top of my head; but if I would of had the time to read all the 200+ texts...I probably could of seen some more.

Actually your list only really listed 2 Biblical causes by which the first 9 in you list the cause is the same -- the fault is on the poor.




Well someone that couldn't see the other 7+ causes of poverty(even though I had mentioned some of these in my previous posts) in scriptures, and only could list 2 by which one(the faults on the poor) is repeated 9 times....I think it is quite obvious there's some level of blindness going on.

Eh... as I said...I have my own blind spots and so does Carson. We're all blind Green. We're all in the same boat, having similar problems.


You're jumping into false conclusion Green. I had already changed my post before I had read your reply. As you know...English is not my mother tongue....Plus I suffer from some sort of expression dyslexia...I think it is quite obvious when reading my posts....especially those that I don't take the necessary time to re-edit them....it takes me quite awhile to write a post that I often have to re-read and make correction so the expression can at least has some level of readability and clarity.

Just like you did for your own post that I'm currently replying. I've noticed you had changed some stuff from the first posting that I had read. I didn't think anything wrong of that. Even an English expert who knows many languages, like yourself, might go back and re-write some of the words and thoughts earlier expressed.


Take it the way you want.... but I personally do believe in you and Carson because I have absolutely no doubt that Jesus will succeed with you also. I see you as a brother on the same team Green.


That was really out of context Green. Whatever you do to help the poor...doesn't change the fact of what you have expressed of your view of them -- that you believe it is their fault they are poor.

And I said ... that that view is not balance and realistic. There's always some level of faults distributed to all levels...but to only present two level without the other 7+ others....I think it is unbalance and not a realistic outlook.

I can agree to these two comments. Subsequent to the OP, I am now asking the why question too. I think the comment I quoted from Carson engenders this and similar questions.

I find that this is the general direction of the Carson comment I quoted in the OP. Thats why I brought up the subject here.

This socialistic politically correct nonsense that Carson can't remember what it is like to be poor is just out and out nonsense. Carson is going to forget the formative years of his life? Riiiiight! NOT!!!!

I am poor. I am most likely the poorest person by far on this site. I wasn't always that way, but the vicissitudes of life have rendered me that way. I grew up poor too, but fought my way out of it, only to become poor once again through no fault of my own. And I do not consider it an insult to be called poor. It is an accurate description of my economic situation.

I have never considered being wealthy my goal in life. Never wanted it. Saw pretty early in life just how many people will sell their souls for money and wanted nothing to do with that. One of my favorite songs all time is Richard Cory by Simon and Garfunkel. It's about the rich man who went out and put a bullet in his head because his life had no meaning, and the poor man who still wanted to be just like Richard Cory because he was wealthy.

If someone wants to look down on me because I'm poor, that is their problem, not mine. I wouldn't want someone like that for a "friend". Anyone who has that idea has no depth of personality, character, and thought. It is also true that anyone who thinks a poor man must have help to make it for no other reason than because he is poor thinks that a poor man is incapable of making it on his own. That is indicative of the same shallowness of personality, character and thought. That kind of thinking is insulting to say the least. It is what is always found in political correctness.

I'm poor so I'm stupid? I'm poor so I have no ability? I'm poor so I just can't make it on my own? How insulting can you get? That thinking is nothing more than arrogance and discrimination. Most poor people do not stay poor all their lives, despite what the socialists would have you believe. Incomes go up and down over life times. A person can start out poor and through education, effort, and determination rise out of his poverty. Many do. I did it. Also, many people can start out wealthy and because of indolence, lack of ambition, wasteful spending, etc... end up in poverty. Which person is more to be pitied? Which person is the one who cannot make it on their own? The poor man or the rich spendthrift?

I would point you to many people to show that their poverty was no hindrance to their becoming greatly successful: Booker T. Washington, George Washington Carver, Frederick Douglass, Abraham Lincoln, Walter E. Williams, Thomas Sowell, Glenn Beck, and many more. Read the autobiographies of Booker T. Washington, Frederick Douglass, Walter E. Williams, and Thomas Sowell. All started out in poverty but all overcame it. All were determined to overcome it. All of them wanted to learn. They were poor in money but not in spirit, ambition, and determination.

You can find the autobiographies of Booker T. Washington and Frederick Douglass online. They are excellent reads and show just how discriminatory the socialist thinking is that says that blacks, and/or poor people, can't make it without the government paving the way.

Here's a statement from an article by Frederick Douglass titled "What the Black Man Wants".

Me? I was happy with middle class income. I never wanted wealth. It was never my goal. I saw what that kind of ambition did to too many people and wanted nothing to do with it. It turned human beings into fiends. Greed always does. And greed is found in human nature, not in a political or economic system. For the proof of that look at the Soviet Union, Red China, etc.... The political elites lived like feudal lords while their subjects starved to death or drank themselves to death because of hopelessness.

I injected some race here because Ben Carson is black, and he is despised by the political left in this country. However, his thinking is right in line with former slaves like Booker T. Washington and Frederick Douglass.

Being helplessly poor is a state of mind. It is wanting other people to take responsibility for you, to give you that which you do not want to put out the effort to earn yourself. I went to high school with a couple of guys that were what we called retarded. Both of those guys had a good life in spite of not having enough intellect to graduate high school with more than a D+ average. One went on to own his own business. The other was a steady employee. Both did well for themselves. Were they rich? No. But they are happy, contented, and comfortable. They made their own way without any government help, and they are proud of the fact they did. It has given them a lot of self-respect. Self-respect that living off the government would never allow them to have. I like both of those guys. I always have. That they had to work as hard as they did to graduate from high school made me respect them back in the 70's. That they have continued to live productive lives is a testament to their character and determination. Socialists would rob them of that, and for that, plus many more reasons, I detest socialist thought.