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Re: Rejection of the Testimonies Foretold, Part 2 [Re: dedication] #187271
08/15/18 12:40 PM
08/15/18 12:40 PM
His child  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,673
TN, USA
Originally Posted By: dedication
Seems several on this thread have rejected the testimonies as being God's gift to light the way through the final great conflict...


Unfortunately of those who profess to believe the testimonies, there is a class that only adheres to their personal favorite "selected messages" … They select what they like and disregard everything else.

Instead of disregarding the Testimonies another class reads them in the light of a popular private understanding which is not the reading that EGW had in mind when she penned them. (The worst offenders often accuse me of doing that.)


"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
Re: Rejection of the Testimonies Foretold, Part 2 [Re: His child] #187274
08/15/18 05:21 PM
08/15/18 05:21 PM
J
James Peterson  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
Canada
Originally Posted By: His child
Originally Posted By: dedication
Seems several on this thread have rejected the testimonies as being God's gift to light the way through the final great conflict...


Unfortunately of those who profess to believe the testimonies, there is a class that only adheres to their personal favorite "selected messages" … They select what they like and disregard everything else.

Instead of disregarding the Testimonies another class reads them in the light of a popular private understanding which is not the reading that EGW had in mind when she penned them. (The worst offenders often accuse me of doing that.)

INTERESTING!

God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by Ellen White, whom He has appointed heir of His Spirit of Prophecy, through whom also He made available to us the Testimonies because of which His Church shall be purged of her rejectors, shaken out that those who remain shall be safe in the glory of her excellent name. Heb. 1:1-4

:: From Saturday to Sunday

///

Re: Rejection of the Testimonies Foretold, Part 2 [Re: Charity] #187278
08/15/18 10:06 PM
08/15/18 10:06 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Elle, I'm trying to say, you often focus on the wrong thing.
1 Peter 5:8: seeking whom he may devour.

You focused on description.
The action is: Seeking to devour.


And Elle, another lost focus, the angel of the bottomless pit is not the same thing as having the keys to it.
Re 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

So does Satan have an evil angel over him?

Re: Rejection of the Testimonies Foretold, Part 2 [Re: James Peterson] #187279
08/16/18 02:53 AM
08/16/18 02:53 AM
dedication  Offline
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Originally Posted By: James Peterson



God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by Ellen White, whom He has appointed heir of His Spirit of Prophecy, through whom also He made available to us the Testimonies because of which His Church shall be purged of her rejectors, shaken out that those who remain shall be safe in the glory of her excellent name. Heb. 1:1-4

///


I think it would be wiser to leave the text as it reads.

In many and various ways God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets; in these last days he has spoken to us by His Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.

God speaks to people through prophets.
The purpose is to reveal to man the truth of God and the rightness and goodness of His ways, calling on people to worship and serve God.

There is nothing wrong with prophets -- they are God's messengers.

However, God went a step further --
He sent His Son into the world -- Emmanuel -- God with us.

The people distorted the message of the prophets. The people had a distorted view of God, of salvation, and of what it means to live a righteous life.

Jesus is the most profound and accurate source of all truth, no prophet can ever equal Him, He IS the truth, the light and the way!!!
The Son is the greatest and highest manifestation of God! Prophets are only messengers to give glimpses and point us to Christ and the Father. (Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believes in him shall receive remission of sins.

On the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus contrasted their interpretations of what God said through the prophets, to what God actually meant when He said it. His whole life revealed the character of God, and He unceasingly taught about what God means by "the kingdom of God".

But what about now?
2000 years have passed.
Our revelation of Jesus is again given to us by the prophets.
Men, inspired and directed by the Holy Spirit wrote down the sayings and activities of Christ while He was on earth. -- Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, did their best to present what they had witnessed and heard. We have their testimonies -- The Bible is God's Word yet written in the words of "prophets".

Now, in our time, we again see all manner of distortions and interpretations. Hundreds of religious communities hold the Bible as truth, yet they do not agree with each other as to what that truth might be! They may converge on a general historical event, yet diverge widely as to what the event meant, how it affects us today, and how it will affect us in the future.

Why would a God of love NOT send a prophet, as He did in olden times?

There are promises in scripture that at the end of time God will send Prophets. (Malachi four, has such a promise.

Re: Rejection of the Testimonies Foretold, Part 2 [Re: kland] #187284
08/16/18 06:54 PM
08/16/18 06:54 PM
E
Elle  Offline
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Died February 12, 2019

2500+ Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
Originally Posted By: kland
Elle, I'm trying to say, you often focus on the wrong thing.
1 Peter 5:8: seeking whom he may devour.

You focused on description.
The action is: Seeking to devour.

Yes....the adversary in a court of law is like a lion who seeks to devour(figuratively) you like an opponent in a court of law would. That's the context & setting of the adversary we deal with in 1Pet 5:8.
Originally Posted By: kland
And Elle, another lost focus, the angel of the bottomless pit is not the same thing as having the keys to it.
Tx for bringing this up and a good point. Yes I agree.

Originally Posted By: kland
Re 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

So does Satan have an evil angel over him?

Rev 20 does not qualify that the angel of the bottomless pit of Rev 9 is Satan. Rev 20 doesn't even talk about the angel of the bottomless at all.

It only says that there's an angel with the key of the bottomless pit and he opened it up and chain satan -- so he wouldn't deceive the nations for a thousand years.

The bottomless pit is define as "the abode of the demons". Satan is in there as all other demon characters are there also. Also Rev7 says a bunch of locust came out of the smoke of the bottomless pit. Rev 11:7; 17:8 says there's beasts are from there too. So all kind of things comes out of the bottomless pit.

These locusts(symbolic term that represents in this case Islam) had a king over them that was said to be an "angel of the bottomless pit". So this angel can merely be "of" the bottomless pit and not necessarily THE angel of the bottomless pit, meaning he is the ruling angel over the bottomless pit. So that angel is not qualify as Satan in Rev 7 but only qualifies this angel as being the king over the bunch of locust.

So since Rev 20 doesn't talk about the angel of the bottomless pit no where, you have absolutely no Biblical text supporting your deduction.

Then I repeat....your word definition of abad and apollumi needs revising by re-reading how the Bible uses these words. It is by far only used to mean "destroy" but equally used as "lost" and "perish". So Abaddon is more accurately by its proper definition of 'abad as "the one that loses" than like you like to define it as "the one that destroys".

Originally Posted By: kland
So does Satan have an evil angel over him?

I really don't know. Something I haven't studied and I refuse to make assumptions. I know that you believe as we have been taught how to view some scriptures as Satan is the head. Maybe he is but since I haven't studied this I cannot answer. He could be the head and maybe he has someone else evil above him. But for sure the good angel that was given the key in Rev 20 is above Satan.

In the Book of Enoch Chapter 6 v.3 says Semjaza was the head of the fallen angels. I don't know if Satan is Semjaza or the Azazel character described in Chapter 8 and 9. For sure Semjaza and Azazel are two seperates angels. So I really don't know how to view this and I do need to study that question from scriptures alone.

But regardless if Satan is the head or not....coming back to Rev 20, it doesn't say anything about the angel of the bottomless pit. For sure Satan is an angel of the bottomless pit like any other angels that lives there.

What Rev 20 says is Satan got chained up because "that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season."

Again, the bible doesn't qualify Satan in Rev 20 as "the destroyer" but instead as the "deceiver" and that's why he is chained up and bound for a thousand years so he won't deceive the nations during the millennium.


Blessings
Re: Rejection of the Testimonies Foretold, Part 2 [Re: Elle] #187286
08/17/18 04:45 AM
08/17/18 04:45 AM
J
James Peterson  Offline
NON-SDA
Active Member 2019

Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
Canada
Originally Posted By: Elle
Originally Posted By: kland
Elle, I'm trying to say, you often focus on the wrong thing.
1 Peter 5:8: seeking whom he may devour.

You focused on description.
The action is: Seeking to devour.

Yes....the adversary in a court of law is like a lion who seeks to devour(figuratively) you like an opponent in a court of law would. That's the context & setting of the adversary we deal with in 1Pet 5:8.
Originally Posted By: kland
And Elle, another lost focus, the angel of the bottomless pit is not the same thing as having the keys to it.
Tx for bringing this up and a good point. Yes I agree.

Originally Posted By: kland
Re 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

So does Satan have an evil angel over him?

Rev 20 does not qualify that the angel of the bottomless pit of Rev 9 is Satan. Rev 20 doesn't even talk about the angel of the bottomless at all.

It only says that there's an angel with the key of the bottomless pit and he opened it up and chain satan -- so he wouldn't deceive the nations for a thousand years.

The bottomless pit is define as "the abode of the demons". Satan is in there as all other demon characters are there also. Also Rev7 says a bunch of locust came out of the smoke of the bottomless pit. Rev 11:7; 17:8 says there's beasts are from there too. So all kind of things comes out of the bottomless pit.

These locusts(symbolic term that represents in this case Islam) had a king over them that was said to be an "angel of the bottomless pit". So this angel can merely be "of" the bottomless pit and not necessarily THE angel of the bottomless pit, meaning he is the ruling angel over the bottomless pit. So that angel is not qualify as Satan in Rev 7 but only qualifies this angel as being the king over the bunch of locust.

So since Rev 20 doesn't talk about the angel of the bottomless pit no where, you have absolutely no Biblical text supporting your deduction.

Then I repeat....your word definition of abad and apollumi needs revising by re-reading how the Bible uses these words. It is by far only used to mean "destroy" but equally used as "lost" and "perish". So Abaddon is more accurately by its proper definition of 'abad as "the one that loses" than like you like to define it as "the one that destroys".

Originally Posted By: kland
So does Satan have an evil angel over him?

I really don't know. Something I haven't studied and I refuse to make assumptions. I know that you believe as we have been taught how to view some scriptures as Satan is the head. Maybe he is but since I haven't studied this I cannot answer. He could be the head and maybe he has someone else evil above him. But for sure the good angel that was given the key in Rev 20 is above Satan.

In the Book of Enoch Chapter 6 v.3 says Semjaza was the head of the fallen angels. I don't know if Satan is Semjaza or the Azazel character described in Chapter 8 and 9. For sure Semjaza and Azazel are two seperates angels. So I really don't know how to view this and I do need to study that question from scriptures alone.

But regardless if Satan is the head or not....coming back to Rev 20, it doesn't say anything about the angel of the bottomless pit. For sure Satan is an angel of the bottomless pit like any other angels that lives there.

What Rev 20 says is Satan got chained up because "that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season."

Again, the bible doesn't qualify Satan in Rev 20 as "the destroyer" but instead as the "deceiver" and that's why he is chained up and bound for a thousand years so he won't deceive the nations during the millennium.

  • There are many ways to destroy; and one of the ways the devil destroys is through deception that causes one to lose life. In this way, the devil destroyed Judas.

    Then Judas, His betrayer, seeing that He had been condemned, was remorseful and brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, saying, "I have sinned by betraying innocent blood." And they said, "What is that to us? You see to it!" Then he threw down the pieces of silver in the temple and departed, and went and hanged himself. Mat. 27:3-5

    In fact, the reason why we experience death today is because our first parents were deceived by the devil into turning against God.

    To Adam GOD said, "Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, You shall not eat of it: Cursed is the ground for your sake ... And to dust you shall return." Gen. 3:17-19
     
  • If the argument is whether the devil or God PERSONALLY kills or destroys anyone, then you are walking in absolute darkness. But if you ask whether men or animals can be persuaded to murder or kill or create or heal by either of them, then you are walking in the light. Deut. 29:29 We can neither see nor fully comprehend the things beyond our material realm.
     
  • Interestingly however, Jesus said, "Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Mat. 10:28 And again, "The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are." Rev. 20:10

    Clearly, at the end of all things, God Himself disposes of every evil being, forever.
///
 

Re: Rejection of the Testimonies Foretold, Part 2 [Re: Elle] #187287
08/17/18 08:15 PM
08/17/18 08:15 PM
K
kland  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

5500+ Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,416
Midland
Originally Posted By: Elle
Originally Posted By: kland
Elle, I'm trying to say, you often focus on the wrong thing.
1 Peter 5:8: seeking whom he may devour.

You focused on description.
The action is: Seeking to devour.

Yes....the adversary in a court of law is like a lion who seeks to devour(figuratively) you like an opponent in a court of law would. That's the context & setting of the adversary we deal with in 1Pet 5:8.
Again Elle, is that idea disprovable?

If not, then it's merely a personally held opinion.

Re: Rejection of the Testimonies Foretold, Part 2 [Re: kland] #187316
08/20/18 05:38 AM
08/20/18 05:38 AM
E
Elle  Offline
Active Member 2019
Died February 12, 2019

2500+ Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: Elle
Originally Posted By: kland
Elle, I'm trying to say, you often focus on the wrong thing.
1 Peter 5:8: seeking whom he may devour.

You focused on description.
The action is: Seeking to devour.

Yes....the adversary in a court of law is like a lion who seeks to devour(figuratively) you like an opponent in a court of law would. That's the context & setting of the adversary we deal with in 1Pet 5:8.
Again Elle, is that idea disprovable?

If not, then it's merely a personally held opinion.

No. That's the proper definition of adversary in 1Pe 5:8. You probably didn't bother checking out the convenient link of the Greek word antidikos, G476 that I provided you on my first post to make it easy to check my source. Most people don't check the Greek or Hebrew word behind the English translation. A lot of mis-interpretation derives from this and do end up with personally held opinion. So you are projecting yourself on me.

Quote:
[i]1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary[antidikos,G476, an opponent (in a lawsuit)] the devil[diabolos,G1228,prone to slander, slanderous, accusing falsely], as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:


God never issue a judgment outside from His court. The devil(see definition link of devil also) is our adversary in God's court of law. That's his main job. See the context of adversary in Matthew 5:25; Luke 12:58; Luke 18:3. All these texts show the context is in a court of law. Another biblical example we have Joshua the high Priest in Zec 3 was accused by satan. This concept is very Biblical; and not my personal opinion.


Blessings
Re: Rejection of the Testimonies Foretold, Part 2 [Re: Charity] #187322
08/20/18 10:08 PM
08/20/18 10:08 PM
K
kland  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

5500+ Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,416
Midland
Let's all do the side step.

Elle, Elle, Elle,
We are not talking about whether I disagree with your definition of some word.

What we're talking about is your twisting scripture of "seeking to devour" into merely a court case. Which, your answer of "No" does belong to the question of, is your opinion disprovable. 'nuff said.

I can see why you would take the position of distracting with a detail definition of something else....

Re: Rejection of the Testimonies Foretold, Part 2 [Re: dedication] #187333
08/22/18 04:32 AM
08/22/18 04:32 AM
J
JAK  Offline
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Active Member 2018
Banned
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 663
Canada
Originally Posted By: dedication
Seems several on this thread have rejected the testimonies as being God's gift to light the way through the final great conflict.
I believe you be speaking of me.


"All that is Gold does not Glitter, Not all who Wander are Lost." (J.R.R.T.)
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