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The 144,000 and the Judgment of the Living #187456
09/15/18 11:51 PM
09/15/18 11:51 PM
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Charity  Offline OP
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I heard an interesting sermon recently on the 144,000. The speaker, Pastor Herbert, leader of the International Association of Free Seventh-day Adventists shared his view that the 144,000 are not the only righteous ones who will be alive at the return of Christ. That was a new thought to me but he backed that quite well with inspired sources. But what was more interesting was his view that the 144,000 are manifested at the start of the latter rain, the first fruits of the harvest. I had always thought that the 144,000 were not revealed until the end at the second coming. But, I have to say, he backed that up quite well too. When I have a chance I'll look at these things in more depth, but as I write this, I believe he's probably right. For those who are interested Pastor's sermon is here. Please tell me what you all think.

But what I want to reconsider today (I've said most of this before) is 1) my conviction that the start of the Judgment of the Living is so close that we need to make every moment count from here on in, and 2) point to those scriptures that clearly describe that event so that we'll know beyond any doubt when it begins. And if Pastor Herbert is right, we'll also know we're at the start of the latter rain and judgment of the living as we witness the majesty of God displayed in the 144,000.

In Testimonies volume 8 there is this curious statement by Sister White:

Quote:
The light that we have upon the third angel’s message is the true light. The mark of the beast is exactly what it has been proclaimed to be. Not all in regard to this matter is yet understood, and will not be understood until the unrolling of the scroll; but a most solemn work is to be accomplished in our world. {8T 159.3}


The above statement is fascinating not only for the fact that Ellen White clearly says there is more to learn about the mark and 666, but also because she tells us exactly when it will be learned – at the unrolling of the scroll. When is that? The phrase “unrolling of the scroll” refers to the time pictured in Revelation 5 when the Lamb, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, takes the mysterious seven-sealed book that no one in heaven or earth is worthy to open or read, and, one by one, breaks its seals, unrolling its hidden contents.

But you may be wondering; “Don't Adventists teach that the scroll was unsealed centuries ago?” Yes, it is true; that is what we as Adventists have believed and taught for decades and what William Miller taught before us. But in the above quote God through the prophet would like to expand our view. He tells us that this book that is in His right hand is still sealed, concealing a knowledge of its contents including the full meaning of 666, the mark of the beast, and likely other things as well. However He is also forewarning us that this will change in the near future.

God through the Apostle has told us that “Judgment begins with the household of God” and speaking to Adventists, Ellen White tells us that God is measuring us.

Quote:
The grand judgment is taking place and has been going on for some time. Now the Lord says, Measure the temple and the worshippers thereof. [Revelation 11:1.] Remember when you are walking the streets about your business, God is measuring you; when you are attending your household duties, when you engage in conversation, God is measuring you. Remember that your words and actions are being daguerreotyped [photographed] in the books of heaven, as the face is reproduced by the artist on the polished plate. {Ms4-1888.21}

I take these inspired statements to mean that the judgment of the living within spiritual Israel, the church, is an ongoing reality. But at a certain divinely appointed time that process expands to include the world and like the cross, this transition marks a new era. And just as the events surrounding the crucifixion were plainly foretold by the prophets, we should expect that an event of this magnitude - all the world being arraigned before the bar of God - will be clearly delineated in prophecy as well. Ellen White implies that Revelation 5 is a vivid description of that event:

Quote:
Those who humble their hearts and confess their sins will be pardoned. Their transgressions will be forgiven. But the man who thinks that should he confess his sins he would show weakness, will not find pardon, will not see Christ as his Redeemer, but will go on and on in transgression, making blunder after blunder and adding sin to sin. What will such a one do in the day that the books are opened and every man is judged according to the things written in the books? {9T 266.2}

The fifth chapter of Revelation needs to be closely studied. It is of great importance to those who shall act a part in the work of God for these last days. There are some who are deceived. They do not realize what is coming on the earth. . . Unless they make a decided change they will be found wanting when God pronounces judgment upon the children of men. They have transgressed the law and broken the everlasting covenant, and they will receive according to their works. {9T 267.1 Emphasis supplied.}



When the Lamb takes the book, which I believe He is about to do, and the judgment of the living turns to the world, then those who are spiritually awake will soon understand things that they don't currently understand; God will remove His hand from the concealed portions of the book and the issues relating to the mark will be made plain by the Holy Spirit to them. Then those with the oil of the Spirit in their lamps will witness to the riches of Christ and His Truth contrasting it with the spurious falsehood of the Anti-Christ, the beast and his mark, 666. Satan and his deceptive, politically correct kingdom will be fully exposed and he will fall forever like lightening from heaven.

So how will we know when the Lamb takes the book? We'll know by the seals being broken. The first seal is the rider on the white horse, symbolic of the latter rain, the second, the red horse of war, the third, famine etc. We'll also know by the sounding of the trumpets of Revelation 8 to 11. Ellen White indicates these are concurrent with the seven seals and the latter rain. 3SM 426.1, 15MR 219.2 – 220.1

And if Pastor Herbert is right we'll also know by the manifestation of the 144,000. According to Ellen White, there is no mistaking this event either. EW 14 -15.

Additionally, Revelation 10, 11 and 14 also parallel the trumpets and seals. In these chapters we have a picture of what the final and straight testimony of the church and the 144,000 will be: That testimony will be the everlasting gospel and its warning will be against the beast and his number.

In chapter 10 John, a symbol of the end-time church is given a little book of prophecy, a book that was formerly sealed, and directed to eat it. This prophecy is something he has never digested before. He does eat it and it is sweet in his mouth but his stomach is made bitter. Why is this prophetic word bitter? Not only because the Lord did not come as expected in 1844 but also because he is then told to rise and give the final prophetic message, the measuring message of the Two Witnesses to the world. The message is bitter in proportion to its unpopularity. While it is a message of good news that gives hope and life to the humble, the same message condemns the pride, skepticism, sensuality, vice and lawlessness of spiritual Sodom and Egypt.

Notice carefully and study the content of that message, the measuring/judgment message in Revelation 11 (LDE 95.4) comparing it with the judgment hour message of Revelation 14: this final message of the three angels and of the Two Witnesses is not only a call to Sabbath and health reform. The Sabbath and health are central to the message but the message itself is the entire everlasting gospel - the offer of complete moral renewal, complete freedom and restoration into the image of Christ through a faith that works by love and purifies the soul.

The sad fact that the majority of affluent Adventists have, like the wealthy citizens of Sodom, adopted to an alarming degree the world's moral standard in the face of this message and the fact that many of them are well down the path of slaying the influence of these Two Witnesses by a false gospel is strong evidence that the true gospel, in answer to the prayers of the saints, is about to go to the world in power.

Beloved, this is where we are now: The Lamb is about to take the book from the Father's hand. When He does, the future will be on us, myself included, with unwonted force, trumpet after trumpet, seal after seal, thunder after thunder. (SDABC 971.4) Let's repent while we can, abide in love and make our calling and election sure because when the cry goes out, “Behold the bridegroom cometh, go ye out to meet Him”, there will not be any time to buy more oil. Let's gratefully respond from our hearts to the fathomless love of God and make our unwavering choice for Him now.


Re: The 144,000 and the Judgment of the Living [Re: Charity] #187490
09/19/18 11:58 AM
09/19/18 11:58 AM
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Charity  Offline OP
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Any thoughts on the first paragraph about the Pastor's teaching on the 144k?

Re: The 144,000 and the Judgment of the Living [Re: Charity] #187494
09/19/18 02:35 PM
09/19/18 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted By: Charity
Any thoughts on the first paragraph about the Pastor's teaching on the 144k?


The SOP says that the 144,000 give their testimony before the whole world, and that they're involved in the closing work for the church (1SAT 72.3, 3T 266.2).

So it's reasonable to say that they're manifested earlier rather than later.

Re: The 144,000 and the Judgment of the Living [Re: glenm] #187496
09/20/18 12:38 AM
09/20/18 12:38 AM
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Charity  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: glenm

The SOP says that the 144,000 give their testimony before the whole world, and that they're involved in the closing work for the church (1SAT 72.3, 3T 266.2).

So it's reasonable to say that they're manifested earlier rather than later.


Good quotes. I don't remember reading this one before:
Quote:
Why were they [the 144,000] so specially singled out? Because they had to stand with a wonderful truth right before the whole world, and receive their opposition, and while receiving this opposition they were to remember that they were sons and daughters of God, that they must have Christ formed within them the hope of glory.


Imagine what it would be like to have all of the regular and social media, all of society, friends etc, targeting you. It reminds me of the how the media obsesses over a certain politician but think of that magnified several fold! We'll have to be well hidden in Christ in order to tweet others the way we'd want to be tweeted.

Re: The 144,000 and the Judgment of the Living [Re: Charity] #187497
09/20/18 05:43 AM
09/20/18 05:43 AM
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I believe Christ took the scroll when He was exalted in heaven just after His ascension. That scroll is not just the end time events, it is the whole
"roll of the history of God's providences, the prophetic history of nations and the church. Herein was contained the divine utterances, His authority, His commandments, His laws, the whole symbolic counsel of the Eternal, and the history of all ruling powers in the nations. In symbolic language was contained in that roll the influence of every nation, tongue, and people from the beginning of earth's history to its close. {9MR 7.2}

It was Christ's death and resurrection that ratified the covenant of salvation -- breaking Satan's claims upon the human race -- and Christ is declared worthy to stand as our Redeemer and the ONE fully authorized to execute all the conditions of the covenant.

The scroll has several parts --
7 seals
a front and a back.

When the first seal is removed, we see the white horse --
the pure gospel going forth to the world.

However removing one seal does NOT open the whole scroll -- it just reveals the first page. This is a KEY opening page!!! The glorious gospel is riding forth into the world! Christ is the victor over sin and the grave -- the price is paid, salvation is fully assured to all who allow the arrows of truth plant the heavenly seeds in their hearts and give themselves to Christ.

As each seal is removed -- a little more of the scroll is revealed.

No, it is not yet fully unrolled. We are still somewhere in the sixth seal.
Number six is man's number -- the created human wanting to be his own god.
The last battle is all about created beings playing "god"
vs making our Lord and Savior King of kings and Lord of lords in our lives.
It's not about "perfecting ourselves" it's about fully giving ourselves to Christ and "following the Lamb where ever He leads", we can't perfect ourselves, but if we surrender to Him He works in our perfection.

The 144,000 have laid down their own egocentric ambitions, and have given themselves fully to Christ. It is only thus that true righteousness will blossom in our lives.

The sixth seal ends with the second coming and the frightful result it has on the unbelievers, then asks the question "Who will be able to stand"? That question is answered in chapter seven, it is those who have received the seal of God!
and only then is the seventh seal opened --
and we are NOT TOLD what it contains --
John explains He couldn't hear anything, it was silent.

So yes, there is still a portion of the scroll unrolled.

The unrolling of the scroll is progressive, it is being unrolled, and it is mission of God's people to "unroll" the message of salvation to the world.

Re: The 144,000 and the Judgment of the Living [Re: dedication] #187507
09/21/18 11:27 AM
09/21/18 11:27 AM
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Charity  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: dedication
I believe Christ took the scroll when He was exalted in heaven just after His ascension. That scroll is not just the end time events, it is the whole
"roll of the history of God's providences, the prophetic history of nations and the church. Herein was contained the divine utterances, His authority, His commandments, His laws, the whole symbolic counsel of the Eternal, and the history of all ruling powers in the nations. In symbolic language was contained in that roll the influence of every nation, tongue, and people from the beginning of earth's history to its close. {9MR 7.2}


Yes, the scroll has been progressively unsealed as the above quote indicates.

Notice the scroll contains all the history of humanity individually and collectively from the fall of Adam to the close of time. This history being unsealed and read by the Lamb depicts the judgment of the dead and the living. According to the Apostle, judgment begins at the house of God and the house of God has existed since the fall of Adam.

But it began in a special sense at Pentecost which the Apostle says was the fulfilment of Joel 2. Almost in the same breath, Peter also pointed to the future fulfilment of Joel 2, the latter rain and the final blotting out of sin which is the judgment of the living.

If the breaking of the first seal initially represented Pentecost, the greater application would be to the latter rain and judgment of the living. This is my point Dedication and my plea: that the church take Ellen White's counsel (quoted above in my first post, 9T 266-7.) to heart to carefully examine Revelation 5. Why? Because it points to the unsealing of the latter rain, the first horse, and the judgment of the living when the history of every living person and nation is read by the Lamb.

Again, why the urgency? Because when the Lamb takes the scroll for the final time and the Spirit is poured out as He reads the life history of all of us, blotting out the sins of His faithful children, those without oil in their lamps will meet with a terrible surprise. It will be too late then to find and buy more oil.

Re: The 144,000 and the Judgment of the Living [Re: Charity] #187544
09/29/18 09:54 AM
09/29/18 09:54 AM
Rick H  Offline
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The Devil has many friends who sprinkle just a little falsehood into Gods truth, and many taste it and say its good...

Now lets look at Matthew 5:48 which has perplexed me for a long time as to when, and I am sure others also. Lets turn to it and read what it has to say:

“Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” Matthew 5:48.

Now SOP in Early Writings, Page 71, makes clear, at the end, we will be without an intercessor: “I also saw that many do not realize what they must be in order to live in the sight of the Lord without a high priest in the sanctuary through the time of trouble. Those who receive the seal of the living God and are protected in the time of trouble must reflect the image of Jesus fully.” {EW 71.1} Its confirmed in the Great Controversy page 614, Ellen White states, “When He leaves the sanctuary, darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth. In that fearful time the righteous must live in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor.” (GC 614).

Hebrews describes the role of Jesus as our mediator in heaven. And yet from SOP, its clear there will be a time when there is no mediator at all, and in that time, “we must reflect the image of Jesus fully” SOP (7BC 977.11 ) says this represents the character of the people of God for these last days.
Now lets turn in our bibles and read John 16:25-27:

“25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.”

So a time will come when Jesus will not pray to the Father on our behalf, because we will know that “the Father himself loves us.” Now the statement from Ellen White that we are to “stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator (GC 425) is clearer and rather than words that strikes fear into our hearts, it changes into a promise. As long as we need a mediator we will have one. But in John 16, Jesus promises us a time will come when we won’t have a mediator because we won’t need one for those that truly know and love Christ.

In Great Controversy page 614 we read, “When the third angel's message closes, mercy no longer pleads for the guilty inhabitants of the earth. The people of God have accomplished their work. They have received "the latter rain," "the refreshing from the presence of the Lord," and they are prepared for the trying hour before them. Angels are hastening to and fro in heaven. An angel returning from the earth announces that his work is done; the final test has been brought upon the world, and all who have proved themselves loyal to the divine precepts have received "the seal of the living God." Then Jesus ceases His intercession in the sanctuary above. He lifts His hands and with a loud voice says, "It is done;" and all the angelic host lay off their crowns as He makes the solemn announcement:”

Now let’s turn to a familiar verse in our Bibles in Revelation 22:11:

“He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.” Revelation 22:11

We find in Testimonies for the Church, vol. 5, Page 216 :

“It is now that we must keep ourselves and our children unspotted from the world. It is now that we must wash our robes of character and make them white in the blood of the Lamb. It is now that we must overcome pride, passion, and spiritual slothfulness....What are you doing, brethren, in the great work of preparation?..Those who are distrustful of self, who are humbling themselves before God and purifying their souls by obeying the truth these are receiving the heavenly mold and preparing for the seal of God in their foreheads. When the decree goes forth and the stamp is impressed, their character will remain pure and spotless for eternity. {5T 216.1}

In Revelation 3:21 Christ makes a promise to the church of Laodicea. “To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne” (Revelation 3:21).

So these saints that live at the end during the time such as never was must not only overcome, but perfect and just like Job to go through a unimaginable trial, and be ready to stand pure and spotless without a mediator with their robes washed in the blood of the lamb to prove to the universe that fallen human beings can keep the law of God. So lets look now at the 144,000.

The number 144,000 occurs only twice in Scripture—both times in the book of Revelation. We find it first between the sixth and the seventh seals here in Rev. 7:4, prior to the Second Coming. So lets turn to Revelation to see what it says: Lets begin in Revelation 7 verse 1:

“1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.”
Revelation 7:1-4

Some Christians assert that the text refers to Jews only so we first need to determine whether or not this 144,000 are actually 12,000 literal Israelites from their 12 respective tribes. Lets turn to Galatians 3:29 and read it:

“29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.” Galatians 3:29King James Version (KJV)

Next we read from Paul, the following of who is a true Jew in Romans 2:28-29:

“28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.” Romans 2:28-29 (KJV)
Next we read from James what shows that the Apostles viewed the tribes in a spiritual sense. “James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the 12 tribes which are scattered abroad, greetings” (James 1:1). The content of James’ letter is clearly addressed to Christians, and yet he plainly refers to them as spiritual Jews from 12 spiritual tribes. So its clear that it is referring to spiritual Israel regardless of whether they were Jew or Gentile by blood.

So lets go back to see the characteristics of the 144,000. We saw in Revelation 7 in verse 3 that they are sealed, “3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.”

In Revelation 14 verse 1, we find the same sealing:
“1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.” Revelation 14 (KJV)
SOP tells us in Testimonies for the Church, vol. 3, Page 266: “The true people of God, who have the spirit of the work of the Lord and the salvation of souls at heart, will ever view sin in its real, sinful character. They will always be on the side of faithful and plain dealing with sins which easily beset the people of God. Especially in the closing work for the church, in the sealing time of the one hundred and forty-four thousand who are to stand without fault before the throne of God, will they feel most deeply the wrongs of God's professed people.." {3T 266.2}

So we see “in the closing work for the church, in the sealing time of the one hundred and forty-four thousand who are to stand without fault before the throne of God”.

SOP in the Great Controversy pages 648-649, tells us that they are those who are living at the end and have overcome:

“Upon the crystal sea before the throne, that sea of glass as it were mingled with fire,--so resplendent is it with the glory of God,--are gathered the company that have "gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name." With the Lamb upon Mount Zion, "having the harps of God," they stand, the hundred and forty and four thousand that were redeemed from among men; and there is heard, as the sound of many waters, and as the sound of a great thunder, "the voice of harpers harping with their harps." And they sing "a new song" before the throne, a song which no man can learn save the hundred and forty and four thousand. It is the song of Moses and the Lamb--a song of deliverance. None but the hundred and forty-four thousand can learn that song; for it is the song of their experience--an experience such as no other company have ever had. "These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth." These, having been translated from the earth, from among the living, are counted as "the first fruits unto God and to the Lamb." ….. they have stood without an intercessor through the final outpouring of God's judgments.
But they have been delivered, for they have "washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." "In their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault" before God.

Re: The 144,000 and the Judgment of the Living [Re: glenm] #187556
09/30/18 05:19 AM
09/30/18 05:19 AM
dedication  Offline
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Originally Posted By: glenm
Originally Posted By: Charity
Any thoughts on the first paragraph about the Pastor's teaching on the 144k?


The SOP says that the 144,000 give their testimony before the whole world, and that they're involved in the closing work for the church (1SAT 72.3, 3T 266.2).

So it's reasonable to say that they're manifested earlier rather than later.


In the SIXTH SEAL, (not the first) we see the sealing of the 144,000. And yes, I too think they are manifested at the beginning of the outpouring of the latter rain --

It is quite clear that only those who fully surrender to Christ in repentance and trust, earnestly seeking His will in their lives, will receive the latter rain and the final seal of God.
The urgency to forsake the world and fully follow Christ is indeed crucial for God's people to embrace. All the talk of second life times in which to find salvation are truly "the devil's lies".

However, I am also more and more concerned about selfish reasons often put forth to urge people to take "overcoming" seriously. There is something seriously wrong in making the motive to "overcome" simply to gain reward and avoid punishment.

In scripture we find Moses pleading for the people, willing to give up His own position in the book of life, for the people. Even Christ was willing to give up heaven in order to save mankind.

What is it that we need to overcome? Is it to get our lives in line with the rules -- or is it something much deeper -- like "our selfishness"?
What does it mean to overcome the beast and his mark?

Does it mean, just to stop work on the Sabbath and not go along with the Sunday movement? Now, I agree these are SIGNS that show to whom we have pledged our allegiance, those who follow the Lamb will spend His holy day, with the Lamb! However, what are the deeper issues?

Those issues revolve around a relationship.
What is the condition of Laodicea (THE SEVENTH CHURCH)in the cycles of seven?
They think they have it all. But what are they lacking?
They are lacking the relationship!

They are not living WITH the Lamb, even though they have enough truth to feel "spiritually comfortable".
But Christ is on the peripheral of their lives -- gently knocking to be let in.
They believe (in an intellectual way), but they do not have FAITH (gold), which is that living relationship with the Lamb.
They follow the rules (most of them) but it's just self righteousness, not the precious robe of righteousness that Christ offers.
They know a lot of true facts, but have not the eye of discernment which only the Holy Spirit gives which leads them to Christ.

What is the last church lacking?
They are lacking the vital relationship with the LAMB.

The distinctive mark of the 144,000 is that they FOLLOW the Lamb where ever He leads. They have a vital, strong relationship with Christ. And when we have that relationship, sin is seen for what it is, and shunned -- NOT because we are after a reward and trying to escape punishment, but because WE LOVE THE LAMB of God and long to be with Him, long to be like Him.


The beast's religion -- is a self righteous religion, a works religion, and many a Christian, whose focus is on self preservation, who knows the "rules" will seek to obtain salvation by the beast's methods, even if they don't follow the beast's rules, but set out to fulfill a list of rules they think will get them to heaven.

It is only those who are fully surrendered to Christ in a vital, loving relationship who will be declared perfect -- because HE works His righteousness in us.

And one of the biggest battles we face as we come to Christ is the battle of self. Jesus said: "He who seeks to save his life shall lose it, but he who loses his life for my sake shall find it". This verse means far more than martyrdom, it means giving up our selfish wills, and following Christ in a daily, hourly, consistent walk.

It's a huge battle to admit that self cannot do it, and yes, the devil is there tempting us that we "can do it" knowing full well that if we believe that, he has us in his grip, for he knows that we can make a few changes and will think we've got it, but we will fall far short, living in the Laodicea state of spiritual self deception.


The 144,000 who receive the seal -- follow the Lamb everywhere, all the time. They have that vital relationship!
They receive the latter rain, and as they witness in the power of the Holy Spirit giving the last LOUD CRY -- a large multitude from every tribe and nation respond -- for they too come out of the great tribulation and washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb, and end up standing before the thrown of God in the victory through Christ.

Re: The 144,000 and the Judgment of the Living [Re: dedication] #187558
10/01/18 03:11 PM
10/01/18 03:11 PM
J
JAK  Offline
FORMER-SDA
Active Member 2018
Banned
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 663
Canada
All very nice words and comforting thoughts.

Here's my only question. What evidence would one see about these "relationships" and when should one expect to see it? (OK, that's two questions) Because I'm not really seeing any in anyone I know, including "church" people and ESPECIALLY church leadership.

Just asking...

One may want to check the last page of the "A Proposed Change to Our 28 Fundamental Beliefs" discussion.


"All that is Gold does not Glitter, Not all who Wander are Lost." (J.R.R.T.)
Re: The 144,000 and the Judgment of the Living [Re: dedication] #187559
10/01/18 11:37 PM
10/01/18 11:37 PM
C
Charity  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2020

4500+ Member
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,583
USA
Good post Dedication. Mary Magdalene and John are good examples of the loving devotion God longs for in us. He'll be as close to us as we allow Him to be. John and Mary leaned into the relationship like few of us do. God is no respecter of persons. If we follow their example He'll be so delighted to have another gem He'll respond in the same intimate, gracious way. And the closer we are to God, the more effective our witness, the better ambassadors we'll be. While it is the Love of God that draws us, His grace that motivates us to repent, it's our choices in the end that determine how much we allow that grace to work in us and how closely we enter into fellowship with Him.

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