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Re: Is the Investigative Judgement Biblical? [Re: Nadi] #187010
07/07/18 10:36 PM
07/07/18 10:36 PM
dedication  Offline
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The question was asked:
What is your understand on the word "cleansed"? Why is the word "cleansed" in Dan. 8 not the same word used in the sanctuary "cleansing" in Leveticus?"

Words are the building blocks to express ideas.

The word under consideration in Daniel 8:14 is "Tsadaq".
Translated
"cleansed" KJV, NKJV, ASV, HNV and Geneva Bible
"reconsecrated" NIV
"restored" RSV, ESV CSB, and NASB
"vindicated" NASB (margin)
"purified" NAB
"declared right" YLT

So which line of meaning is correct
1. The cleansing, purifying idea or
2. The restoring, reconsecrating idea?

Actually, the word seems to take
The basic meaning, according to the lexicon, of "Tsadaq" is to "justify, declare righteous, vindicate, clear of guilt, bring justice (in administering law) turn to righteousness"

According to Strong's the word is translated:
justify (23x), righteous (10x), just (3x), justice (2x), cleansed (1x), clear ourselves (1x), righteousness (1x).

We also find that the word "Tsadag" is found in close connection with the words "tahor" and Zakah" both meaning "clean" or "pure".

Here are some examples of its use: Tsadaq #H6663

Genesis 14:16 ..how shall we clear ourselves? H6663 God hath found out the iniquity of thy servants:

Exodus 23:7 I will not justify H6663 the wicked...

Deut. 25:1 ..then they shall justify H6663 the righteous, and condemn the wicked

1 Kings 8:32 ..condemning the wicked, to bring his way upon his head; and justifying H6663 the righteous, to give him according to his righteousness

Job 4:17 Shall mortal man be more just H6663 than God? shall a man be more pure [taher] than his maker?

Job 15:14 What is man, that he should be clean [zakah]? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous? H6663

Prov. 17:15 He that justifieth H6663 the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.

Isaiah 53:11 by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify H6663 many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Daniel 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness H6663 as the stars for ever and ever

The word carries a heavy forensic meaning of being declared just, made righteous.
“Then shall the sanctuary be cleansed” announces the beginning of the great Day of Atonement. It is the beginning of the judicial court conducted in heaven as outlined in Daniel 7,

Re: Is the Investigative Judgement Biblical? [Re: Nadi] #187013
07/08/18 12:18 AM
07/08/18 12:18 AM
dedication  Offline
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But let's go back to the meaning of "cleansing" in the earthly sanctuary.

The word "taher" is used in Lev. 16.
Meaning: purified, pure, clean, cleansed, purified, purged, ceremonial cleansing, pronounced morally clean.

The word is often used in a "ceremonial cleansing" manner, though it is also used in personal cleansing.

During the day of Atonement in Leviticus 16:15-20

The Priest
Quote:
“shall take of the blood of the goat and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat, and before the mercy seat (15) He shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins, and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation. (16) …And he shall go out to the altar (of incense) that is before the Lord, and make an atonement for it; and shall take of the blood of the bullock, and of the blood of the goat, and put it upon the horns of the altar round about.(18) And he shall sprinkle of the blood upon it with his finger seven times and cleanse it and hallow it from the uncleanness of the children of Israel.(19) And when he has made an end of reconciling the holy place, and the tabernacle of the congregation and the altar, (20)……….


The earthly tabernacle offered "ceremonial" cleansing.
It could not of itself offer cleansing from sin.
Hebrews 10:4 "For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Thus it is fitting that the words used for "cleansing" in the earthly rituals signify more of a "ceremonial cleansing".
The ceremonial cleansings whole purpose was to point forward to the real cleansing which COULD take away sin.
Thus, when speaking of the cleansing at the end of time, in Daniel, of the heavenly sanctuary, it is a cleansing that takes away sin and that meets the demands of God's law. It's the real thing!



But the next question usually asked is:
But weren't all these ceremonial cleansings all pointing to Christ's sacrifice? Why have a time near the end of earth's history for another "cleansing"?

While the earthly services were just a "shadow" or "pattern" of the heavenly and not the real thing, they are still the pattern. "Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things." Hebs. 8:5



The atonement which the priest made for the people in connection with their daily ministration was different from that made on the tenth day of the seventh month.

In previous chapters in Leviticus we read many verses of the priest taking the blood of the sacrifice and making atonement for individuals. To do this the priests only entered the Holy, and to make it they could enter that apartment "always" or "daily." But into the second apartment(the Holy of Holies) only the high priest would go alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people.


On the day of Atonement we see something very different from the daily rituals. Cleansing occurs for the sinner during the daily rituals, BUT only on the day of atonement does the sprinkling of blood result in cleansing for the sanctuary itself, and for the altar and for the people as a whole nation, symbolizing a finality to come.

Also, the cleansing of the sanctuary on the day of atonement presupposes that sanctuary was contaminated, and the text tells it was contaminated “because of the transgressions in all their sins” of the children of Israel previous to this. This is not speaking of “national apostasy” this is dealing with the regular “salvation” model.

Modern critical scholars can’t seem to understand why there should be a new cleansing on the Day of Atonement for sins already pardoned and forgiven during the year. After all, Lev. 4:35 says of the sin offering, which a repentant sinner offers during the year that “the priest shall make an atonement for his sin and it shall be forgiven him.” Yet, on the day of atonement “On that day shall the priest make an atonement for you, to cleanse you that you may be clean from all your sins. (Lev. 16: 30)

The pattern makes a clear distinction between the DAILY cleansing, and the yearly cleansing.

Why was a “double” atonement necessary?

Re: Is the Investigative Judgement Biblical? [Re: Nadi] #187026
07/09/18 03:56 AM
07/09/18 03:56 AM
dedication  Offline
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A person's view on the state of the dead, is one of the biggest hurdles in trying to share the "day of atonement" as pointing to the pre-Advent Judgment.

A large segment of Christians believe a person receives their eternal reward at death. They believe people go to be with Jesus in heaven, or they go to a different very unpleasant place as soon as they die. No matter which direction a person goes, according to that belief, they are assigned their eternal destination at death.

That belief has little room or need for a heavenly investigative judgment prior to the second coming, because, in their minds the decision is already made and the verdict carried out.

However, when we see scripture telling us that the dead are actually really dead, their thoughts and involvement in anything has totally ceased, and they are oblivious to all things until the resurrection "in the last day", then the pre-Advent judgment makes a lot sense!!!

It is when Christ comes in the clouds of glory and all the angels with Him that the reward for every person is given.
The dead in Christ, receive glorious new life and rise into the air to meet Jesus, and those in Christ who have not died, will be changed in a moment and rise up into the air with them to meet Jesus.

Rev. 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Those "left behind" cease to live.

The judgment -- going over the names that are to remain in the book of life and who are to receive eternal life with Christ, has taken place prior to His glorious second coming.

Revelation speaks several times concerning the book of life.
Those whose names are in that book enter into the city of God. Those whose names are not found in the book of life do not receive eternal life.

That book is the main book opened in Daniel 7 when the heavenly court is seated and the books are opened.

Revelation 3:5 shows Jesus standing before the Father and millions of angels PRESENTING NAMES of those who overcome in His name, and their NAMES are permanently left in the book of life. But on the other side == those who do not overcome in His name, will have their names removed.

Daniel 7:9 I watched as thrones were set up, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head was like pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels [of his throne] as burning fire.
7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
7:14 there came one like a son of man, and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him.

Jesus said:
Rev. 3:5 He that overcomes, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Rev.21:27 ...nothing unclean will ever enter {the New Jerusalem], nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Re: Is the Investigative Judgement Biblical? [Re: Nadi] #187087
07/15/18 09:19 PM
07/15/18 09:19 PM
Daryl  Offline

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The IJ definitely makes more sense than going to heaven instantly after death, or descending instantly to hell to an eternity of torment.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: Is the Investigative Judgement Biblical? [Re: Daryl] #187090
07/16/18 02:09 AM
07/16/18 02:09 AM
J
JAK  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Daryl
The IJ definitely makes more sense than going to heaven instantly after death, or descending instantly to hell to an eternity of torment.


Perhaps, but it does not need to be an either/or situation. Indeed, it IS not. There is much middle ground between those two positions. dedication is simply (once again) deflecting the discussion to a separate, basically unrelated, point because she struggles to support the IJ via Sola Scriptura.


"All that is Gold does not Glitter, Not all who Wander are Lost." (J.R.R.T.)
Re: Is the Investigative Judgement Biblical? [Re: dedication] #187091
07/16/18 04:28 PM
07/16/18 04:28 PM
J
James Peterson  Offline
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Posts: 1,195
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Originally Posted By: dedication
Why was a “double” atonement necessary?

God plainly tells you why in symbolic language.
  1. PERSONAL SIN

    So the priest shall make atonement for him before the Lord, and he shall be forgiven for any one of these things that he may have done in which he trespasses.
    Lev. 6:7
     
  2. ORIGINAL SIN (THE SIN OF THE WORLD)

    There shall be no man in the tabernacle of meeting when [Aaron] goes in to make atonement in the Holy Place, until he comes out, that he may make atonement for himself, for his household, and for all the assembly of Israel.
    Lev. 16:17
     
  3. THE PURPOSE OF THE DAY OF ATONEMENT

    It was only on that Day the sins of the people were actually taken away. "And when he has made an end of atoning for the Holy Place, the tabernacle of meeting, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat. Aaron shall lay both his hands on the head of the live goat, confess over it all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions, concerning all their sins, putting them on the head of the goat, and shall send it away into the wilderness by the hand of a suitable man. The goat shall bear on itself all their iniquities to an uninhabited land; and he shall release the goat in the wilderness." Lev. 16:20-22. The act prefigured Calvary, also prophesied about explicitly:
     
    • by Daniel in this way:

      Seventy weeks are determined
      For your people and for your holy city:
      - To finish the transgression,
      - To make an end of sins,
      - To make reconciliation for iniquity,
      - To bring in everlasting righteousness,
      - To seal up vision and prophecy, and
      - To anoint the Most Holy.

      Dan. 9:24
       
    • by Zechariah in this way:

      And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced ... In that day a fountain shall be opened for the house of David and for the inhabitants of Jerusalem, for sin and for uncleanness.
      Zech. 12:10-13:1
In order for God to have given eternal life to any one of us, the curse on the entire world had to be lifted first. Salvation was ratified on Calvary by the blood of the Lamb who, according to John the Baptist, took away the sin of the world; indeed, whose blood not only washes but washes away completely, drains the swamp as it were. And so because of Calvary, that great day of atonement, we, the congregation of the Church, have the hope of glory to come.

John 5:24

///
 

Re: Is the Investigative Judgement Biblical? [Re: James Peterson] #187092
07/16/18 07:12 PM
07/16/18 07:12 PM
J
JAK  Offline
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Posts: 663
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Originally Posted By: James Peterson

God plainly tells you why in symbolic language.

Isn't that an oxymoron?


"All that is Gold does not Glitter, Not all who Wander are Lost." (J.R.R.T.)
Re: Is the Investigative Judgement Biblical? [Re: JAK] #187093
07/16/18 08:19 PM
07/16/18 08:19 PM
J
James Peterson  Offline
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Posts: 1,195
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Originally Posted By: JAK
Originally Posted By: James Peterson

God plainly tells you why in symbolic language.

Isn't that an oxymoron?

smile "Now when the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they perceived that He was speaking of them." Mat.21:45

There was once a eaglet who learned of his neighbour the butterfly that the forest was all there was. One day, he happened to fly with his kind and rose way up above the clouds and as he enjoyed himself, he looked out across the land and discovered there was, in fact, a great deal beyond the forest. Later, he asked the butterfly, "How is it you said this was it?"

That evening the eaglet flew away; and they never spoke again.

///
 

Re: Is the Investigative Judgement Biblical? [Re: Daryl] #188111
12/21/18 04:13 PM
12/21/18 04:13 PM
N
Nadi  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Daryl
Bumping this, as I review what has been posted in here, and hoping for further responses in relation to the biblical aspects of the IJ.

Here is an informative article by Ronald L. Lawson Ph.D. The entire article is very interesting and informative of the growth and development of the SDA church.

https://ronaldlawson.net/2018/11/26/seve...ntieth-century/

However, I found the following to be particularly interesting and apropos to this thread:

Originally Posted By: Ronald L. Lawson
One of Martin’s criticisms repeated that the Adventist doctrine of the heavenly sanctuary and the investigative judgment lacked biblical basis. At that time one of the Adventist publishing houses was revising an old but popular book, Bible Readings for the Home Circle, for a new edition, and was endeavoring to bring it into line with the Bible Commentary. The editor with responsibility for the prophetic chapters, Raymond F. Cottrell, with Martin’s critique in mind, set out to show that a biblical basis for the doctrine existed–and failed to do so. On taking the matter to the senior editor, he was encouraged to send a questionnaire to the leading biblical scholars–whereupon he found that all 27 polled agreed with his finding (1958). This result led President Figuhr to create a committee, known as the Daniel Committee (1959-1966), to address the problem, but it eventually could only agree to disagree and not issue a report. Three of the members would not agree to issue an “encouraging report” that would gloss over the problems; the others would not agree to issuing majority and minority reports that would have announced the problem to the membership at large (Cottrell, 1982:15-16).

So I maintain that the doctrine of the IJ is an early SDA invention and unsupported by Scripture.


"Our vision is often more obstructed by what we think we know than by our lack of knowledge." K. Stendahl
Re: Is the Investigative Judgement Biblical? [Re: Nadi] #188127
12/23/18 04:52 AM
12/23/18 04:52 AM
dedication  Offline
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Lawson, as an outsider doesn't understand the full picture - he only sees the confusion that has entered into the church, not the foundational truths. And granted -- a lot of confusion has entered into the church.

As to Cottrell -- well, I can see why he would say what he did. I still remember my first studies in Daniel's prophecies back in the late 1960's -- a college class I took back then- Bible and the SDA commentary were our main "textbooks". Cottrell, of course had a lot to do with the production of the SDA commentary.
I could not make sense of it back then either. The commentary was very confusing and the class didn't resolve the confusion.
It wasn't until several years later, that things began to click into place for me, and yes, it became very obvious to me that the whole sanctuary doctrine is very much supported by scripture. I don't know much about the (1959-1966) Daniel Committee, but I do know that the Daniel and Revelation Committee in later years put out a lot of excellent resource material. It's not really fair to always point back to 1966, and the dragging of scholarly feet back then, as if that were the conclusion of the matter.
What seems obvious is that some Bible scholars in the 1950's -1960's had neglected in depth studies on the subject, and opposition blew them over. Besides ecumenical forces were in play during the 1950's, that worked at trying to water down our unique beliefs.
God does allow opposition to send us back into diligent study. It's called the "shaking" all right. Some get shaken out, while others are strengthened in their faith and find rich treasures as they trace the truth of Christ's work throughout the scriptures.

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