First Quarter of 2019 the Sabbath School studies the book of Revelation.

Lesson One
The Gospel From Patmos (click to see full lesson)

Revelation 1:1 states the title of the book as "The Revelation of Jesus Christ".

Jesus is the central figure of Revelation. The book begins with Him (Rev. 1:5-8) and concludes with Him (Rev. 22:12-16)

This Jesus in Revelation is the Jesus of the four Gospels. Revelation continues the description of Jesus and His work of salvation as He returns to heaven. The book of Revelation focuses on different aspects of His existence and ministry. Essentially it begins where the Gospels end, with Jesus' resurrection and ascension

A great video emphasizing this concept of Revealing Jesus in Revelation -- can be listened to by clicking the link below.
Join hosts James Rafferty and Ivor Myers as they discuss the book of Revelation and the importance of putting Jesus first.

Jesus First, Revelation Salvation in symbols and signs

I also embedded the video into the opening post of this thread.

Revelation in symbols and signs
starts exploring the seven churches in episode 7
All the churches are studied and can be found on the internet
Below are links to the study of the first two messages to the churches

07 Ephesus


08 Smyrna

Here is Doug Batchelor on the 144,000:

"Revelation 7:1-4 states: "After these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel."

Then the Scripture lists 12,000 from each of the following 12 tribes: Judah, Reuben, Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Manasseh, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, Zebulun, Joseph, and Benjamin.

Now the main question is whether or not the 144,000 are actually 12,000 literal Israelites from each of these respective tribes. Twelve tribes came from the 12 sons of Jacob, but because Joseph was sold into slavery by his older brothers, he was separated from his family for many years. After Joseph finally reunited with his father, Jacob promised to compensate by adopting Joseph's two sons as his own, to be numbered with his sons in place of Joseph.

"Now thy two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, which were born unto thee in the land of Egypt before I came unto thee into Egypt, are mine; as Reuben and Simeon, they shall be mine." Genesis 48:5. Hence, Joseph would be numbered twice through his sons. So its not the literal 12 tribes, but the clue to it being a spiritual meaning to the 144,000 was the way in which the tribes are listed in Revelation 7:5-8. This is the only time in Scripture that the names of the tribes appear in this order. Reuben, the firstborn of Jacob, is listed as second while Judah, fourth in birth order, is listed as first. Joseph and Levi are included, while Ephraim and Dan are left out. Why?

Because "Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder [viper] in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward" (Genesis 49:17), and "Ephraim is joined to idols: let him alone" (Hosea 4:17).

I watched Pastor Doug Batchelor as one of the two presenters of that week's Sabbath School lesson and heard him say that he is probsbly in the minority in that he believes the 144,000 is a literal number.

I'm sure he has some rationale by which he makes this statement. Revelation is mostly symbol, so this is quite unusual.

The following link will probably show his rationale in believing that the 144,000 is a literal number:

https://www.amazingfacts.org/news-and-fe...re-the-144-000-

Fortunately that was an article, not a video. I read it in its entirety, and I must say I did not see any legitimate support for 144,000 being a literal number. He seems to pull random facts and evidence from obscure places because it fits his trajectory.

However, kudos to Batchelor for prefacing the article with "I share the following study with confidence, but I also realize and respect that others may have a different interpretation."

So, not surprisingly, I do not agree with his assertion.

But no big deal. It bears not a bit on salvation.

Math is interesting. The SDA church now boasts 21 million members.



1/100 of 21,000,000 = 210,000.
If less than 210,000 are not doing anything beyond engaging in common worldly enterprises, does that mean that SDA's will have a hard time finding 144,000 to make up God's count?

Logic is interesting.
If less than 210,000 of 21,000,000 are not doing anything beyond engaging in common worldly enterprises, does that mean that the others are doing something beyond engaging in common worldly enterprises?

Kland, if you read the quote in context you will see what EGW means by "less than 1 in 100" and what that small number is doing.

And yes, HC, the math is interesting!!!

While the 99 are simply engaging in common worldly enterprises, making a living, keeping themselves fed and comfortable, the 1 percent are out there giving Bible studies, sharing the gospel, going into unchurched places and raising churches, etc.

Actually it kind of fits what I understand the 144,000 to be --

As Jesus began the Christian church with a foundation of 12 men going out and planting the gospel truth in the known world until there was a great multitude of Christians,
So in the end, God will have His 12,000 times 12 going out and planting the gospel as it is in the three angels' messages until there is a great multitude on God's side praising Him in their white robes of Christ's righteousness.

Let's hope so

Am I not thinking correctly or neither of you two?




Does not negation require the less/than greater/than to be changed?
as in:

If more than 210,000 are not doing anything beyond engaging in common worldly enterprises,

Of course the bottom line is not if the SDA Church will have enough members to fill the ranks of the 144K when less that 1 in 100 members are not as they should be.

The real question is not literal or figurative 144k.


Will you or I be faithful to be in the 144k?

The author of this quarter's SSL states that the editors made some massive changes to this week's lesson.

http://revelation-armageddon.com/2019/03...ript-on-rev-13/

IMHO some of the changes were an improvement, but both fall short of what we could know if we stayed true to the prophecy.

I've been complaining for several quarters that all the lessons sound the same no matter who the author is. That is, the lessons really are Goldstein's. Maybe Stefavnovic is seeing the same thing....

Lesson 11

Memory Verse: “ ‘Who shall not fear You, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You alone are holy. For all nations shall come and worship before You, for Your judgments have been manifested’ ” (Revelation 15:4, NKJV).

Who is the "O Lord" that the "You alone are holy" referring to?

Daryl, you aren't making this into another thread about the trinity, are you?

Revelation 16 is revealing the truth about the false trinity: Satan appearing as Pope John-Paul II, the beast (pope Francis I), and the false prophet (Benedict the retired).

Probably a more likely scenario, vs Henry's narrow view:Character in Revelation 17
 
Woman - Religion
 
Waters - People
 
Beast that was and is not and is to come: The state in a demonic configuration
 
The One - Roman connotation
 
The Other - a future phenomenon - SDA commentators called it the US. (may be a bigger than that)
 
Ten Kings - World Powers
 
1. The dragon makes one last attempt to win the war that began in heaven
 
2. He works through surrogates, pursuing a strategy of imitation
 
3. The woman in Revelation 17 is related in origin by not in character to Revelation 12.
 
4. The imperial reality of John's day persists till the end of time
 
5. At the end of time there will be a period of preternatural political and religioun unity.
 
6. The unity will be broken by a revealing action, the "waters" will dry up, and the woman will be destroyed by those who previously suppported her.
 
The Plot of Revelation 17
 
1. Confronting an opponent committed to deceit, God pursues a strategy of revelation and not a strategy of force.
 
2. God's way is to allow the cosmic rebel to do his will.
 
For God has put it into their hearts to carry out his purpose - Rev_17:17
 
3. The cosmic rebel and his allies go to [______] - destruction. (ans: self)
 
Rev_17:8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to ascend from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the inhabitants of the earth, whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will be amazed when they see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come.
 
Rev_17:11 As for the beast that was and is not, it is an eighth but it belongs to the seven, and it goes to destruction.

That would be God, the Father, since the acclamation is part of the "song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb". See verse 3.

When they say "You alone are holy", they mean holiness in terms of justice, righteousness and unparalleled wisdom framed by transcendent Divinity. Think of it like struggling with a problem, trying hard to solve it, wrestling with it for days -- before someone comes along and with a few strokes and in a few short minutes writes the solution on the board. Would you not be in awe of their brilliance? Indeed such men are universally celebrated like Albert Einstein.

So the redeemed will proclaim the glory of GOD (to paraphrase):

"Great and marvelous are Your works,
Lord God Almighty!
Just and true are Your ways,
O King of the saints!

Who shall not [stand wide-eyed in awe of] You, O Lord, and glorify Your name?

For You alone are [at the top of the apex].
For all nations shall come and worship before You,
For [the rightness and fairness of] Your judgments have been manifested.

NOW WE SEE! NOW WE UNDERSTAND!" v. 3b,4

--------------

Recall to mind the prayer of the Lamb of God in the Garden of Gethsemane, "Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done." Luke 22:42. As a man, Jesus walked through the valley of the shadow of death and wondered why. When all things will be revealed at last, however, he also will join with all the saints in praise and adoration to God the Father, as it is written, "Now when all things are made subject to [the Son], then the Son Himself will also be subject to [the Father] who put all things under [the Son], that God, [the Father], may be all in all." 1 Cor. 15:28

John 20:17

///

This vague scenario that you spent so much time writing is so out of date that it is virtually useless on the eve of Christ's Coming

The drying of the Euphrates River has commenced as foretold:

Water being people, tongues, and multitudes = people driven from Euphrates River basin by ISIS. Literal fulfillment.

The message that Babylon is fallen aligns with God's call to come out of her because of her fornication. That too is happening. The priests global fornication scandal is driving people out of Babylon now.

By their fulfillment in the endtime Daniel and Revelation will explain themselves. By spiritualizing away the literal fulfillment of prophecy, the plain is made mysterious. The blessing from God's word is shrouded in darkness by the shadow of doubt.

Oh that God's professed people would know more of what they are talking about and keep the Spirit of prophecy in context. There is less to say regarding the papacy because the woman with the reins that is riding the beast is Apostate Protestantism, the endtime power that is controlling the papal beast.

So YOU believe...

Yes henry - you feet don't fit the shoe - they are too small. Perhaps you have become too confused in your understanding?

Apathetic People in Laodicea

Since they do not understand the place of Michael Pence in Revelation 13, they cannot possibly see the necessity to warn people that he will be the one to implement the Mark of the beast that is foretold in Revelation 14. Thus, their skepticism will encourage others to be unconcerned until it happens. When it happens and the 5 virgins wake up, their influence will testify against them as did the anguish of the antediluvians when the rain came upon them in torrents.

Now is the time to study to show ourselves approved of God as workers that need not to be ashamed. Each day that we delay to look beyond what we think we know is a day wasted and only serves to run the clock down to bring us closer to Christ's leaving the Sanctuary when it will be finished.

Christian regards

Henry, are you familiar with Ron Wyatt? When facts absolutely disproved his ideas, he didn't let that get in the way and kept moving full steam ahead. Some suggested that he had a condition in which he wanted something so much to be true, that he actually truly believed it to be true in spite of evidence to the contrary and actually believed things happened, which did not.

See any similarities?

If this was referenced to:

Re 13:11 ¶ Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb and spoke like a dragon.

I found this in the commentary:

What is it that gives its kingdom to this power? Protestantism, a power which, while professing to have the temper and spirit of a lamb and to be allied to Heaven, speaks with the voice of a dragon. It is moved by a power from beneath (Letter 232, 1899). {7BC 983.5}

Am I understanding correctly that she's saying that Protestantism is the one with lamblike horns and speaking as a dragon?

First

Re 16:12 ¶ Then the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, so that the way of the kings from the east might be prepared.

Then

Re 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs coming out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
Re 16:14 For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

So my question is, if the water, or people of support, are dried up, how then after that are they gathered to battle?

Pathetic indeed.

Let me ask you a question, what does the White Horse of Revelation 6 (six) represent to you?

what facts do you suppose that I am overlooking?

I agree - the seals contain the whole (WHOLE) history. Who is on the White Horse in the seals henry?

Since the unsealing of the scroll contains ALL THE HISTORY OF THE CHURCH AND NATIONS

The white horse is King Nebuchadnezzar, the kingdom of Babylon, the apostolic Church, President Reagan, etc.

The seals are NOT about the whole history.

The question was asked, "Who is worthy to open the scroll and to loose its seals?" Then an elder told John, "The Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals." Suddenly the Lamb of God appeared and took the scroll, and all of heaven burst forth into singing, "You are worthy to take the scroll, and to open its seals; for You were slain, and have redeemed us to God by Your blood."

What was in that scroll? And why was it so VERY special?

It was actually the keys to the Kingdom, of the earth and all that is in it. Jesus told John, "I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death." Rev. 1:18 And again, of Himself, "He who has the key of David, He who opens and no one shuts, and shuts and no one opens." Rev. 3:7

Each one of those seals was, in a modern sense: a title, area of responsibility, authority over some facet. Jesus, because He prevailed, was given preeminence over the complete seven. What was to result in His triumph was devastation for all enemies, an utter routing of every pretense to the Throne, fierce and relentless vengeance:

1. against the four corners of the earth (white, red, black, fiery horses to be sent out)
2. against the king of the dead (salvation to be promised to the righteous there)
3. against the living wicked (eternal damnation to be executed: who shall be able to stand?)

When the final seal was broken and ALL that authority placed in Jesus' hands, a dreadful, awful silence ensued. Then to the seven angels of the Lamb (His very own) were given seven trumpets to begin the DAY OF VENGEANCE against Jerusalem. See Mat. 23

****

See the second book of Samuel, chapters 5 to 8. There is more to this, A WHOLE LOT MORE, but I will speak about it later.

///

I suppose, like Wyatt, you would repaint the facts such as Obama is no longer president and has not come back as one, that pope ratzinger was not the last pope (or was it one other than you saying that?), that a number of your predictions have not come true.

Yep - you make God the active subject bringing the calamities on the world. Nice. But nope. The seals, trumpets and bowls are all demonic activity.

So? What's your point?

Tell me. Was it a legion of demons who possessed Jesus Christ to do the following? Was it Satan in human form that people mistook for Jesus Christ?

"The Passover of the Jews was near, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. In the temple he found people selling cattle, sheep, and doves, and the money changers seated at their tables. Making a whip of cords, he drove all of them out of the temple, both the sheep and the cattle. He also poured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. He told those who were selling the doves, 'Take these things out of here! Stop making my Father’s house a marketplace!'" John 2:13–16

Hebrews 10:26-31


///

Jesus never touch anyone. What happened right after Jesus cleared out the temple the time recorded my Matthew? The blind and the lame came to Him.

Jesus never touched anyone? What's your point?

With God, there is no knife, sword or gun or cannon! As it is written, "For He spoke, and it came to be; He commanded, and it stood fast." Psalm 22:9 and again, "Seeing a fig tree along the road, He went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. 'May you never bear fruit again!' He said. And immediately the tree withered." Mat. 21:19

And behold, among the prophets: "To the others [God] said in my hearing, 'Go after [this one] through the city and kill; do not let your eye spare, nor have any pity. Utterly slay old and young men, maidens and little children and women; but do not come near anyone on whom is the mark; and begin at My sanctuary.' So they began with the elders who were before the temple. Then He said to them, 'Defile the temple, and fill the courts with the slain. Go out!' And they went out and killed in the city." Ezk. 9:5-7

Tell me: did US President George Bush kill anyone in Iraq? Why then do they say that he led the nation into war? Surely the one who leads goes before his cruel army before which men faint in dreadful fear. NO! Among the great and powerful, their word is as good as any weapon, even more deadly. By the will of God, a man lives; and by His will, another dies. As it is written:

"But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear the One who, after you have been killed, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear Him!" -- Luke 12:5

///

You do yourself a disservice by continuing to compare me to Wyatt.
When I could only follow the prophecy to Bush, I called Bush II the last American President. When, the prophecy was fulfilled by Obama (as the 4th beast in Daniel 7 because it had 2 phases pagan Rome and papal Rome) I could then only understand Bush II and Obama. Since the earth beast in Revelation 13 only had 2 horns, it was obvious that they =2.

But EGW clearly states that by "their fulfillment" Daniel and Revelation will explain themselves. So I learned that Obama was the second, but not the last. He did not stay in office or come back within a year that he would have had to do to fulfill the parameters of the prophecy. So I had to go back to the Bible and study some more.

Then I learned the meaning of duo as 2 and 2 (this portion of the prophecy is being doubled). In conjunction with that, I learned that the hour for the Judgment of the living has ended and God is wrapping it up when Michael Pence stands.

So I have studied and learned and grown in my understanding. Oh that you would have learned something along the way other than to have your skepticism harden your heart.

God never promised us infallibility. But He did say through EGW "We have nothing to fear from the future except that we forget how God has led us in the past." And that involves going forward by faith in the word of God as it is understood at the time.

If I am reading EGW right...Since you have forgotten how God has led the Advent Movement in our past history, you will have much to fear in the future.

No need to be afraid of God. None. Keep reading ... Who then to fear?

Since you are prophesying, waiting only to see nothing comes of it, returning to the drawing board: wash, rinse, repeat ... your statement, "that the hour for the Judgment of the living has ended" is astounding in its presumptuous audacity.

If you have proven unreliable in things pertaining to earth, how much less must you obviously be about things far above you!

Deuteronomy 18:22

///

A Bible student is not a prophet.
The student studies the prophecies that even the prophets that uttered them did not completely understand.

The bottom line is: go forward by faith (as far as one understands he prophecies under study) or play it safe and wait until the rain starts falling.

Excellent example of repainting...

Although you have been shown that is not true, that it is not in scripture as you say, it's still full steam ahead.

Who has forgotten how God has led the Advent Movement in our past history?

So what was your point in emphasizing of making a whip of cords?

Exactly!

There are two types of prophesying:

1. The kind where a prophet says such and such WILL happen. To such, Deut. 18:22 applies.
2. Your kind where you say such and such is what you understand WOULD happen. To such, your own caution applies: "wait [to see if] the rain starts falling."

The difference lies in the claim of (in)direct inspiration: whereas the former comes along saying, "Thus says the LORD ..." the latter proclaims instead, "Thus means the LORD by the one who said thus says the LORD." In the both cases, especially where interpretations prove fruitless, loss of credibility dampens enthusiasm, weakens faith and destroys the HOLY NAME OF GOD.

"As it is written: 'God's name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.'" -- Rom. 2:24

///

Kland, That is nonsense. Because you have shown me that you do not agree with the evidence presented, your disagreeing with the facts does not make the evidence untrue. It testifies that you place your opinion above the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy. The Bible reveals the prophecy and the Spirit of Prophecy states that Daniel and Revelation will explain themselves by their fulfillment. Thus when the 42 months were fulfilled as 42 & 2 in harmony with the use of duo in Luke 10:1, you choose to reject the Bible and its fulfillment. That is a foolish position to take on the eve of Christ's Second Coming.



Kland, this is more nonsense. God led His people with time prophecy when He founded the Seventh-day Adventist Church. That is how God led us in our past history. And as God's people followed His leading, they did not get everything right. They made some mistakes and they kept studying until they got it right. For you to think that God is leading His people differently today, you must not be understanding how He has led us in the past. And to think that you have nothing to fear is like the antediluvians not being afraid of the rain that they knew would never come.

James,
Jonah prophesied that Nineveh would fall, it did not. Are you saying that he was a false prophet?

I was saying that as I read the prophecy it means thus and so. God allowed me to have the time to see things that I had not understood from the prophecy at the time I spoke. When more light came on the subject, I was able to update my understanding because What was partially understood became more clear.

The antediluvians had more light when the animals paraded into the ark, but they refused to update their opinions. Thus, they waited until the rain fell: Too late too late.



Are you updating your prophetic views now that new light has come or are you going to wait until it is too late?

The Beast That Is an Eighth
 
Written by:
Sigve K. Tonstad
Published:March 20, 2019
 
When the seven bowls have been emptied, one of the bowl angels stays behind to talk (Revelation 17:1). This could be interpreted in more than one way. First, it could be the angel's initiative. If so, it confirms that God is more interested in making things known than human beings are in knowing. By this logic, neither inquisitiveness nor curiosity in the human realm is the driving force. Things happen on God's initiative; God prods the audience to stay for an extra lesson. Alternatively, the trumpet angels may have seen bewilderment on John's face. His body language has been noted earlier. In chapter 5, John faced a predicament in heaven that caused intense sorrow and weeping (Revelation 5:4). In that scene, others took note of his state of mind, and they responded as though his reaction matters (Revelation 5:5). We have another scene of interaction between heaven and earth in the intermission between the sixth and the seventh seal (Revelation 7:13-17). In that scene, one of the elders asks a question that John cannot answer. "You are the one who knows," he says (Revelation 7:14). This may represent a glimpse of the heavenly pedagogy: God wants us to know, and God uses questions to get us there.
 
The scene that begins in Revelation 17 could be a mixture of these elements. God wants John to know, and John wants to know. The disclosures so far have left him perplexed. The angel's offer of private lessons seems to work if we judge by John's body language. The range of John's reactions in Revelation is now awe (Revelation 1:17), grief (Revelation 5:4), admission of ignorance (Revelation 7:14), and here -- most likely -- perplexity. There will be at least one more: shock. "When I saw her, I was shocked with an extreme shock" (Revelation 17:6) or, "I was appalled with utter disgust." The type of interaction and response that we see in John are meant to instill similar states of mind in the audience. This is not easy to do. Why was John taken by surprise so late in the day?
 
Clearer When It Blurs
 
I have read John 17 many times. The chapter is Revelation's master class. If we manage to sort things out in this chapter, we have it made. My initial sense is that the tutoring angel seeks to make things clear by images that are hyper-specific, with numbers like "five," and "seven," and "eight" for the heads of the beast (Revelation 17:8; Revelation 17:11). This hyper-particularity has sent interpreters scurrying in all directions to crack the code they imagine John to be using. Perhaps we are barking up the wrong tree. The hyper-particularity does not aspire to present an array of new historical details. Rather, it is tongue-in-cheek particularity driving home a message the contours of which are already in place. Simple does it.
 
Hyper-particularity goes hand in hand with a blurring of the imagery. The mix of characters, places, and things suddenly seems unstable. Who, what, and where are no longer exactly what we expect. It is as though things get clearer when they blur.
 
The angel's private lesson begins with an invitation.
 
Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, "Come, I will show you the exposé of the great prostitute who is seated on many waters, with whom the kings of the earth have committed sexual immorality, and with the wine of whose sexual immorality the inhabitants of the earth have become drunk." So he carried me away in the spirit into a wilderness, and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was full of slanderous names, and it had seven heads and ten horns. The woman was clothed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and jewels and pearls, holding in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the impurities of her sexual immorality; and on her forehead was written a name, a mystery: "Babylon the great, mother of whores and of earth's abominations." And I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints and the blood of the martyrs of Jesus (Revelation 17:1-6).
 
A wilderness (Revelation 17:3)? The last time there was a wilderness, the woman that gave birth to the male child was in flight mode into the wilderness, trying to escape the dragon (Revelation 12:6; Revelation 12:14). Is this the same wilderness?
 
A scarlet beast (Revelation 17:3)? Strictly speaking, we have not seen a scarlet beast before. We have seen a red dragon; that was the color of the creature hell-bent on destroying the woman fleeing into the wilderness (Revelation 12:3; Revelation 12:13). We have also seen a beast rising from the sea that had similar characteristics (Revelation 13:1). Its color might be surmised, but there is no statement about its color.
 
A woman (Revelation 17:3)? We have seen a woman before, the one who gave birth to the male child (Revelation 12:1-2) and then fled into the wilderness (Revelation 12:13-16). She barely escaped. Or did she? The summary passage about the woman's flight from the dragon ends on an ominous note. "The dragon was enraged with the woman. And he went away (in a vanishing act) to wage war against the rest of her seed, those who keep the commandments of God as revealed in the testimony of Jesus" (Revelation 12:17, translation mine).
 
How did the dragon's new plan turn out? There are enough markers of continuity to be certain that Revelation elaborates the earlier story. It might have been easier if John had said the scarlet beast, or the wilderness, or the woman -- not a scarlet beast, a wilderness, or a woman. He should not say that, of course. He should say it exactly the way he does and then let his reaction say the rest. "When I saw her, I was shocked with an extreme shock" (Revelation 17:6). This detail is crucial. As to wilderness, it suggests trouble in the region of apparent safety. As to beast, it suggests a close relation to the pursuing dragon and not only to the beast from the sea. As to woman, now colluding with all her might with the scarlet beast, something terrible, unimaginable has happened. John's shock must be surprise over the friendly relations between the woman and the beast, not surprise over the awful deeds only. The two are even color coordinated (Revelation 17:3-4).
 
Two stable deed-elements stand out here just as it has earlier in the story. There is slander (Revelation 17:3), and there is violence (Revelation 17:6). The frightening, shocking constellation is guilty of misrepresentation and murder (Revelation 13:5-7; Revelation 17:3; Revelation 17:6).
 
And there is more.
 
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to ascend from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the inhabitants of the earth, whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will be amazed when they see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come (Revelation 17:8).
 
To the great Wilhelm Bousset and many others, the meaning is clear. The beast that returns from the abyss is the expected Nero redivivus, concerning whom people in later times were convinced would come back from the netherworld." I don't agree. The symbols and the alleged historical reality would be woefully mismatched if Nero were the great surprise. Indeed, and again, the Nero myth fails to meet the ontological measure in the text. "The beast...was and is not and is to come" (Revelation 17:8) contrasts with God "who is and who was and who is to come" (Revelation 1:4; Revelation 1:8). Is not -- the point of distinction -- is not only a chronological or historical difference. The terms used in the contrast aim for ultimacy. At the level of ultimacy, Nero has no standing, and the same must be said about other candidates that fail the ultimacy test. The ontological contrast is also a contrast of character. Is not -- still the point of distinction -- can never be said about God. Revelation does not deal in abstractions, not even if the abstraction is the worthy cause of systematic theology. Those who believe that the phrase "who is and who was and who is to come" is a description of God's eternal self-existence, should think again. Rather, the phrase describes God as one who is ever present; he is never absent; he is God with us. The opponent in the conflict is neither God nor is he with us. He is against us, as proven specifically by the vanishing act described earlier (Revelation 12:17).
 
The interest of the tutoring angel centers on this "beast." By the criteria of ontology (being) and character, he contrasts with God. And now the angel pinpoints his location and his eventual fate. First, "he is about to ascend from the bottomless pit [ek tēs abyssou] -- from the abyss" (Revelation 17:8). This information is a great help. It establishes the cosmic, non-human dimension of the beast. We shall be forgiven for thinking that the angel merely had a few more things to say about the beast from the sea (Revelation 13:1), but we must now see images blur, blur in the interest of clarity. We have seen the abyss before, in relation to the star that fell from heaven to earth (Revelation 9:1). We were even given a name for "the Angel of the Abyss," in Hebrew "Abbadon," in Greek "Apollyon" (and in English, "Destroyer") (Revelation 9:11). The abyss is his home base. In connection with the two witnesses, we read that "the beast from the abyss shall make war against them and win over them and kill them" (Revelation 11:7). Neither Nero nor the Roman Empire nor some other "Roman" entity suffices for this feat. And indeed, the verbal element describing the ascent of the beast from the abyss is the same in both passages (Revelation 11:7; Revelation 17:8).
 
Second, the outsize, ultimate character of this power is twice repeated. He "is about to ascend," but he is also about "to go to destruction" (Revelation 17:8). This is repeated twice: "to destruction he goes" (Revelation 17:11). This, too, fits the story of the ultimate destroyer in the trumpet sequence. He is what he does, the Destroyer (Revelation 9:1; Revelation 9:11). This is his persona in this book, as it is in the antecedent Old Testament poem: "you have destroyed your land, you have killed your people" (Isaiah 14:20). To capture the essence of Revelation's depiction, we need to enhance the depiction with the right tenor in both places: he "is about to go to self-destruction" (Revelation 17:8; Revelation 17:11).
 
We are now ready for the most particular and peculiar text in the angel's show-and-tell.
 
the seven heads are seven mountains upon which the woman is seated. And they are seven kings. The five have fallen, the one is, the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must remain a short while. And the beast that was and is not -- is itself an eighth and it is also of the seven, and to destruction it goes (Revelation 17:9-11, translation mine).
 
Notice how I have preserved the article for "the one who is" and "the other" who "has not yet come." Who are they, this conspicuous twosome? I won't say, but I'll give a clue: Read Revelation 13 one more time. This twosome is important, but they are not as important as the beast, "itself an eighth...but also of the seven" (Revelation 17:11). Quite a feat, isn't it, to have an eighth (head) even though the beast only has seven; quite a feat to be "an eighth" but also in the warp and woof of the seven.
 
John has blurred things in order to make them clearer. What is clearer, is the Destroyer from the abyss and his ascent (Revelation 9:1; Revelation 11:7; Revelation 17:8; Revelation 17:11), the one who was and is not and is to be present again, in his own subversive, perverse, and revelatory parousia.
 
Babylon
 
The economic predation of Babylon is a subject we must leave for another day. When we scrutinize the background texts in the Old Testament, especially Ezekiel 28:12-19, we will discover that the wicked commerce of "Babylon" is not only predatory trade. It is "trading in slander." As I have argued earlier, a broad conception is necessary if we wish to be fair-minded to the most harrowing deed on Babylon's C.V. "And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all who have been killed with violence on earth" (Revelation 18:24, translation). "Her" cannot by this criterion simply be the Roman Empire or some entity that is Roman.
 
The Rider on the White Horse
 
I will close with the rider on the white horse, another battle scene from the open heaven (Revelation 19:11-16). How does he fight in this war (Revelation 19:11)? What does it mean that he has a name that no one knows but him (Revelation 19:12)? And the robe "dipped in blood" -- whose blood is it (Revelation 19:13)?

Too late for what?!

---------------------------------------------------

A certain weatherman on a local TV channel:

1. said the rain would fall. It didn't. "My bad," he said ...
    
2. said it would snow. It didn't. "Sorry," he said ...
    
3. predicted floods. They never happened. "I'll study more" he said ...
    
4. predicted tornadoes. They never came. "Back to the drawing board," he promised ...
    
5. warned of a hurricane. Balmy weather instead. "Oops," he confessed ...
    
6. warned of hail. Nothing ensued. Stood there scratching his chin ....
    
7. resigned before he was fired.

Go and do likewise, lest egg be thrown in your face in public: and fire and brimstone follow you to hell. Jeremiah 23:30-32

///

Noah kept on keeping on until the door of the ark was closed by God.

As it was in the days of Noah, it shall be in the last days.

That's how I read it

I'm not so sure Noah would be delighted to find himself being associated with a charlatan who refuses to admit non-inspiration, humbly apologize and stop treating the Bible like a crystal ball.

///

Actually I am placing the facts of the Bible above your opinion.

Maybe you can show again where you get 2+2 from the just plain from the Bible 2 and we can decipher your error.

ABOVE is the right word. Presenting the evidence again won't settle anything for you, it is not evidence that you need; while you place your skepticism ABOVE everything, you will continue to blind yourself to anything that does not fit your fancy.

His child, I'm looking for facts. Including evidence from the Bible.

1417. duo duo, doo'-o
a primary numeral; "two":--both, twain, two.

The definition doesn't say four nor is it used as four in the Bible.

Mt 4:18 And Jesus, walking by the Sea of Galilee, saw two <1417> brothers, Simon called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea; for they were fishermen.

Simon and Andrew were 2, not four.

Re 9:12 One woe is past. Behold, still two <1417> more woes are coming after these things.

There were a total of 3 woes, not 5 woes.

Re 13:5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two <1417> months.

He continued 40 and 2 months, not 40 and 4 months.

Re 13:11 Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two <1417> horns like a lamb and spoke like a dragon.

It had 2 horns, not 4 horns.

Kland,

Dig a little deeper:





Duo only occurs once in Luke 10:1 but KJV translates it as 2 and 2 and Philips renders it as TWOS. Duo is also twos or 2 & 2.



Here is how Daniel and Revelation explain themselves by their fulfillment:

Timing of Daniel 7:9 is the 1844 Judgment.

After 1844 Daniel 7 reveals 9/11/01, i.e., Season and time (7:12): 4 seasons in a year. A Prophetic year=360 days. A season is 90 days [1/4 of year]. A day in Bible prophecy can be a year. A time can also be a year. 90 days=90 years and 1 year = 91 years.

Endtime beasts are: Presidents Reagan (lion), Bush I (bear), and Clinton (leopard with 4 heads), who are the 3 kings from the prophetic earth (USA). Bush II is the beginning of the indescribable beast.

The pope speaking great words after 1844 when 9/11/01 occurred was John-Paul II (he spoke dies domoni that changed God's Sabbath to Sunday). John-Paul II plucked up Reagan (he declared pope political leader= healing deadly political wound on US behalf). John-Paul II plucked up Bush I (he said pope was "World's Moral Leader" = head of all churches = healing deadly spiritual wound on US behalf). John-Paul II plucked up Clinton (he said "this guy is on my side").

After 1844, Reagan turned 90 years old 2/6/2001. 9/11/01 marked his 91st year with an event of enormous importance. Daniel 7 states that the 3 beasts (lion, bear, leopard) would be alive (at the same time) and out of office). "As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time" (Daniel 7:12).

From 9/11/01 Pope John-Paul II lived 42 FULL months. Oct. Nov, Dec 2001; 12 in 2002; 12 in 2003; 12 in 2004; Jan, Feb, March 2005=42 FULL months. There was some time left over = 42 months and 20 days.

Bible writers used the Hebrew calendar. It is a lunar calendar that adds a month (Adar 1) routinely to keep it in sync with the solar calendar. From 9/11/01 to the day Pope John-Paul II died Adar I was added exactly twice. In fact, he died 42 plus 2 months to the very day from 9/11/01 to 4/2/05 on the Hebrew lunar calendar.

By their fulfillment Daniel 7 and Revelation 13 explain how Pope John-Paul II continued 42 plus 2 months from 9/11/01 to 4/2/05.





This quote was written after 1844. Ellen White wrote out these verses (which includes the 42 months) in long hand. If she did not intend to say that the 42 months will surely take place that they would be fulfilled in the endtime, she would not have written that verse in her statement.

But she did write it and it was fulfilled as 42 plus 2 months when prophecy met its final fulfillment. And because the DUO in the 42 months f Revelation 13:5 was fulfilled as 2 & 2, the next time that duo occurs in Revelation 13:11, it is clear that it is not 2, but 2 & 2.

How do we know that?

The first beast in Revelation 13 is the papacy. It's deadly wound was first partially healed in 1929. From 1929 until 2013 it had exactly 7 heads/popes: Pius XI & XII, John XXIII, Paul VI, John-Paul I & II, and Benedict XVI.

The pope is a head because the head/pope received the deadly wound when Pius VI was taken captive by the French.





Revelation 13 transitions from the papal beast to the earth beast during the reign of the 7th head/Pope Benedict XVI. The second beast has 2 horns.



The horn/king/president on the earth beast that received authority as the endtime Protestant Prince of the covenant (see my study on Daniel 9) was George Bush II. Thus during the reign of Benedict XVI, the prophecy transitioned from the papal beast to America. Bush II was the president at the time. The next horn was Obama. If there were only 2 horns that is the end of the prophecy. But since (DUO) 2 was fulfilled as 2 & 2 in Revelation 13:5 THE 2 lamblike HORNS must be fulfilled as 2 & 2 horns in 13:11.

They have been Presidents: Bush II, Obama, and Trump. That leaves one final earth-beast horn/President to yet come to fulfill the count.



This power (the USA) only has 4 horns. Bush II, Obama, Trump, AND...



As I read it Michael Pence is the great prince of America's Covenant that will stand for his people. He is the last horn of the 2 & 2 horns on the earth beast that is to wage war against God's people. Then Michael (Christ) will deliver His people.

There is more.




From 1997 when the LORD called me to study Daniel and Revelation, I have written a dozen books on it and most recently "The Last Trump Shall Sound". 170 pages, no fluff. Just giving the prophecies, their fulfillment and Spirit of Prophecy references.

If necessary, I can start a thread and post it page by page. What say you?

Incorrect.

KJV translates [ana] [duo] as two and two.

Why did you emphasize ana?

303. ana

a primary preposition and adverb; properly, up; but (by extension) used (distributively) severally, or (locally) at (etc.):--and, apiece, by, each, every (man), in, through. In compounds (as a prefix) it often means (by implication) repetition, intensity, reversal, etc.

1417. duo

a primary numeral; "two":--both, twain, two.

Lu 10:1 (NKJV) After these things the Lord appointed seventy others also, and sent them two by two before His face into every city and place where He Himself was about to go.


Ana used here means repetition. Repetition of the following word, duo. Without ana, duo would only mean two rather than two by two.

And if I could post a picture, I could show you what the Interlinear Scripture has. It has
"he-dispatches them up two two before face of-him".
"apesteilen autoous ana duo duo pro prosOpou autou"

Notice the two duos.

Mr 6:7 And He called the twelve to Himself, and began to send them out two by two, and gave them power over unclean spirits.

Mark has the Greek <duo> <duo>. That is twice. One duo would only be 2. And, what do you say? Did Christ send them out by twos or by fours?

Rev 13.5 has only ONE duo. It is preceded by 40. Maybe you should consistently incorrectly translate it as 40 duos, that is 80.


His Child, perhaps you should search for your emphasized word, "ana" <303>.

By their fulfillment Daniel and Revelation explain themselves.

IMHO, Since Pope John-Paul II fulfilled the 42 months as 42 full month and exactly 42 plus 2 to the very day on the Hebrew calendar, your point lacks validity. All the pieces of the puzzle taken together make it clear.

But It boils down to Christ's question "How readest thou?"

And Daniel's prophecy: "The wise will understand."

When all is said and done we will soon discover if that be ye or me.

Kland,

I thought about your last post a little more since I replied. When ana is used in Luke 10:1, your position is that it means repeat. Thus you read it as repeat duo. I consider the passage and note that ana means by thus I read that Jesus sent them out by twos.

Both readings are correct, but to understand that duo is two (or both) twos makes a significant difference on the probability that under some circumstances two is twos.

If that were a fluke like "inferior" in Daniel 2:39 that means earth and is translated as such at the end of the same text, the conversation would be of a different character. But with ana not being in Revelation 13 and duo being there twice, the point that each one has to decide for themselves is duo twos? And since twos fits the historical fulfillment thus far, is it correct? Or is the fulfillment being manipulated to make it say something that it does not say?

I agree, Jesus sent them out by twos. Not by fours. Duo is never two twos. It is only one two.

Show us where in Revelation 13 it is used twice.

You seem to base your scripture interpretation upon your historical interpretations. That is not how to understand the Bible. For example, if your intrepretation was 42 and 6 months, would you then consider that duo means 8 (2+6)?

We must understand scripture first, with no regard to how our own opinions of interpretation of current events are. If our opinions don't match, then maybe we are wrong or have applied the wrong scripture to them.

I did that several times on this forum, you'll have to look it up