Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

When considered in the larger context of Isaiah 9 why do we choose to believe verse 6 is referring to Jesus?

Isaiah 8:18 Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion.

Isaiah 10:5 O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation.

Is it possible God uses people, places, and things to symbolize past, present, and future people, places, and events? For example, the King of Tyre. Or, the sons of Isaiah.

Very true -- so many of the Messianic prophecies are embedded in a context that deals with events and prophecies of more local things.

Isaiah especially is rich in prophecies pointing beyond their more localized settings.

Well the first lesson in those Bible Study Guides was on
The war in heaven, the fall of Lucifer and angels that followed him.

Lesson 2 shows the war coming to this planet.

The war on earth -the fall of mankind

It deals with some important questions
--Why didn’t God immediately destroy Satan and his angels when they sinned?

--Why would God want a fair demonstration of the claims made? Why?

-- Who will be the jury?

-- Why was Satan so set on winning over the first human beings?

== How is God's character revealed

I do not have a Scripture in mind that will answer your question James, but I suspect that Christ was manifest as one of the original covering Cherubim. He manifested Himself as an angel in Heaven before Lucifer was cast out and the fact that He would enter into the secret counsels of God while Lucifer was not permitted to do so go along with that scenario.

HC, You could probably appeal to the scriptures that speak of Christ as Michael the Archangel -- or the commander of the heavenly hosts. (Joshua 5:14, Revelation 12:7)

Yet, I believe Christ's place was ON the throne, with the Father, thus receiving the honor of the angels, not holding the position of "covering cherub"

Yes, His
"goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting" (Micah 5:2) That is -- He did mingle with the created, He created them, He was their leader, but He was also God, with the Father, (John 1:1) and He went forth from God, (John 8:42)that is from His place ON the throne of God to mingle with the created.


Also scripture says we were created in God's image --
Cherubim have a rather different "image", Artists paint Lucifer looking like a man with wings, but read Ezekiel 1 and 10 -- cherubim don't look at all like us.

Bottom line, of course, James' question cannot be answered with an affirmative Biblical answer, because the answer was not revealed. Everyone can have an opinion, but no proof. We do know there are more cherubim in heaven, so not knowing who the other cherub was/is presents no problem.

Looking at lesson two.

It raises a question that is often asked by suffering humanity.
Why, didn't God stop Lucifer dead in his tracks and save the world from 6000 years of trouble, sickness, and all the other terrors that satan and sin have stirred up during those years.

Why did God allow Satan to be at that forbidden tree?


Why didn’t God immediately remove His life giving power from Satan and his angels when they sinned? Separated from the source of life, they would have died immediately. So why does God continue to supply life power to them?

Because He is bound by justice in all that He does. Had God instantly stopped "life energy" to reach Lucifer, the one who was accusing Him of being unjust, Lucifer’s argument could have been strengthened in the eyes of the other angels. Suspicion would have run rampant had this beloved and highest of angels suddenly dropped dead. Was there something he knew that God was trying to cover up? No, God would allow fairness to dictate His actions.

Everyone would be allowed to see what the fruits of Lucifer's "improved government" led to.

Sin kills, not God. Sinners cut themselves off from life, not God. The inevitable results of sin is death, not God cutting someone off, or executing them. God does not say, love Me, or I'll kill you. NO. Sin destroys the sinner.

The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Ephesians 4:18; Proverbs 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. {DA 764.1}
 
At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. {DA 764.2}
 
But not so when the great controversy shall be ended. Then, the plan of redemption having been completed, the character of God is revealed to all created intelligences. The precepts of His law are seen to be perfect and immutable. Then sin has made manifest its nature, Satan his character. Then the extermination of sin will vindicate God's love and establish His honor before a universe of beings who delight to do His will, and in whose heart is His law. {DA 764.3}

Bible answers???

The question -- why was Lucifer allowed to live?

Yes, Satan was allowed to live, God (Who is the source of life) continued to give that life to Lucifer, He didn't cut him off, Lucifer didn't suffer the "result of his sin" which is the loss of life, at that point.

And yes, we believe:

" God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles."


I agree -- no one would have understood, if Satan and his angels had dropped dead.

The lesson explores WHY sin was allowed to enter the world, and why they continued to receive life from God even though they rebelled against the Life Giver and sinned.

Who are these who would not have "understood"?

APL,

You continue to compel all and sundry to hear your incorrect interpretations of Scripture; yet the truth still stands. God can, does, and will mete justice to sinners. The Bible says it. Ellen White says it. Jesus Himself said it. These truths are recorded for us not once nor twice. Why will you not believe it?

APL, your view stands opposed to the heart of the Gospel. It opposes the Third Angel's message, by making of none effect the law of God.

Whether you choose to accept inspiration or not on this point, you have no right to infuse every topic here on this forum with your private interpretations, taking them from the subject of discussion to your own special fetish.

You clearly have some problems with understanding both God and the Bible. Many texts of Scripture show plainly that your pet view cannot be correct--and I think you know it, which is what has made you so defensive here on this point, to the point of almost belligerence on the topic.

Consider Exodus 4:24: "And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the LORD met him, and sought to kill him."

Why would God seek to do something that God cannot do? He wouldn't. God can and will--else Balaam's donkey feared God in vain.

Now, lest you take to wresting as is your usual course, let's break down the text here a little more. In this verse, the Hebrew verb translated to English as "to kill" is NOT of the Qatal variety: rather, it is Hiphil. In Hebrew, Hiphil verbs show that the subject of the verb causes the verb's object to do a specified action or to be in a specified state. In this case, the subject is "LORD," the object is Moses (the antecedent of the pronoun "him"; cf. vs. 21), and the state is death. The KJV has correctly translated the verb, stating that the LORD (capitals are to indicate Jehovah God, i.e. Yahweh) would kill him.

Satan is not Yahweh. Sin is not Yahweh. The one said to cause this state of death is Yahweh.

Hebrew is a fascinating language, APL. If you want to understand the Bible better, I recommend you learn some.

Now, does Ellen White agree that God kills? Yes. Consider the following, in which Ellen White speaks within the context of "the fear of God."



Now, is a particle of dust "sin"? No. The One who would cause the death of the priest if he came into the holy sanctuary with the dust was not "sin." The dust itself had no power to cause the death of the priest. Nor could Satan abide the presence of the Almighty and Holy God so as to cause the priest to die within the Holy or Most Holy Place where God's presence was.

As you quoted, APL, Ellen White says "Then the extermination of sin will vindicate God's love and establish His honor before a universe of beings who delight to do His will, and in whose heart is His law" {DA 764.3}.

If sin could or would "exterminate" itself, Jesus need not to have died. What a waste of the life of the Son of God! Why would He have allowed Himself to suffer such cruelty if sin would self-destruct? He would never have made such a great sacrifice in vain; No, no. The cruel death of the Lamb of God upon the cross of Calvary demonstrates plainly that sin requires the death penalty, and cannot be cured without the shedding of blood. Jesus' sacrifice tells us in no uncertain terms that God's law, the same law that requires death for the transgressor, the law that is a transcript of God's character, cannot be changed nor trifled with. God means what He says.

Tom, APL, kland, and some others stand at the head of the line of all of us and all of the created universe.

Had God then destroyed Lucifer, when the first seeds of sin were sown, God would have been misunderstood by all. We would all have served Him from fear, and not of love. But when God does at last make a final end to both sin and sinners, it will be seen that He is righteous, fair, and just in doing so.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Green - Desire of Ages tells clearly, the inevitable results of sin is death, not execution. Sin kills, not God. And the ONLY perfect photograph of the character of God we have is Jesus Christ, which you should believe. The truth about IS THE GOSPEL. It is Good News. Sinner die, but not because God executes them. Satan is the author sin AND ALL ITS RESULTS.

Mark 1:14-15 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, (15) And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent you, and believe the gospel.