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Re: Is the Investigative Judgement Biblical? [Re: Nadi] #189819
06/24/19 01:53 PM
06/24/19 01:53 PM
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kland  Offline
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I heard someone telling about prisoners. That the prison sentence is a "punishment" but they did not feel it was intended to rehabilitate them. So that is different for my idea of "punishment". That would be more of a "penalty" or "payment" or "retribution". While I see the intent of "punishment" as a corrective action intended to cause the person to behave differently.

For example: Your daughter runs into the street after you tell her not to. You spank her hoping that in the future she will not run into the street. As opposed to: Your daughter runs into the street, gets hit by a car, put on life support, and you say, I told you not to run into the street or you'd get paddled, and then you proceed to turn her over in her hospital bed and paddle her behind.

Since obviously that person has a different definition than I, what's your definition of "punishment"?

Re: Is the Investigative Judgement Biblical? [Re: Nadi] #189824
06/25/19 01:35 AM
06/25/19 01:35 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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The punishment Jesus speaks of ends in eternal death.

Re: Is the Investigative Judgement Biblical? [Re: Nadi] #189831
06/25/19 11:59 AM
06/25/19 11:59 AM
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kland  Offline
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I think we all know sinners end in eternal death. Surely you don't agree with the father spanking the child while laying in the hospital bed.
But please expound upon the term, "punishment". What does "punishment" in general mean to you, what is it's purpose? Do you think perhaps, "punishment" is not the correct word? What word would you think more accurately conveys what happens to sinners?

Re: Is the Investigative Judgement Biblical? [Re: Nadi] #189833
06/25/19 12:49 PM
06/25/19 12:49 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Certain criminals are punished through incarceration and then ending in lethal injection while lying strapped to a bed. Yes, punishment is the right word. Revelation describes it this way:

Quote
Revelation 14
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Revelation 16
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.

Revelation 18
6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

Revelation 19
1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.
5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Revelation 20
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

That's a lot of rejoicing a lot of holy, unfallen, righteous beings are expressing over the punishment of the unholy, fallen, unrighteous beings. Cast "alive" into the lake of fire. Tormented forever. Angels declaring "they deserve double".

Re: Is the Investigative Judgement Biblical? [Re: Nadi] #189872
06/27/19 12:54 PM
06/27/19 12:54 PM
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kland  Offline
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So would you say your idea of punishment is the same as or at least includes "penalty", "payment", "retribution", and perhaps, "torment/torture"?

Re: Is the Investigative Judgement Biblical? [Re: Nadi] #189873
06/27/19 01:04 PM
06/27/19 01:04 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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You left out "vengeance". Like I've said several times now - I do not understand it. The Bible passages describe it using words most people fear and loathe and they cannot imagine such words apply to our loving Heavenly Father and our best Friend and Savior. I suspect you have a way of explaining things in a way that you feel better about.

Re: Is the Investigative Judgement Biblical? [Re: Nadi] #189880
06/27/19 01:42 PM
06/27/19 01:42 PM
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kland  Offline
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I said before, I see punishment as a corrective action intended to cause the person to behave differently in the future. A restoration.

Some people of our country take satisfaction out of the court system and have no desire for the criminal to be rehabilitated or corrected. They are satisfied to see him penalized, paid back, tormented, for vengeance. These ideas are all for onlookers' satisfaction. An internal, individual, selfish type of satisfaction. Such as expressed in, "fry, Bundy, fry".

Do you see God as having that need of satisfaction in penalizing, pay backing, retributing, tormenting, torturing, or seaking vengeance?

Re: Is the Investigative Judgement Biblical? [Re: Nadi] #189881
06/27/19 02:50 PM
06/27/19 02:50 PM
Daryl  Offline

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When God casts them into the Lake of Fire, I don't see that as being corrective.

Do you?

Last edited by Daryl; 06/27/19 02:52 PM.

In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

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John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

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Re: Is the Investigative Judgement Biblical? [Re: Nadi] #189892
06/28/19 01:04 PM
06/28/19 01:04 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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I see discipline as aimed at correcting behavior. Eternal punishment is punitive. And, no, God does not delight in unbelievers suffering in proportion to their sinfulness. God does, however, delight in justice.

Re: Is the Investigative Judgement Biblical? [Re: Daryl] #189896
06/28/19 07:22 PM
06/28/19 07:22 PM
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kland  Offline
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Posts: 6,416
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Originally Posted by Daryl
When God casts them into the Lake of Fire, I don't see that as being corrective.

Do you?
No, I don't. That's why I believe the word, "punishment" as we view it, would not be proper here.

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