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Re: Rick Warren and Saddleback Church and Wiullow Creek [Re: kland] #190791
09/02/19 08:11 PM
09/02/19 08:11 PM
J
James Peterson  Offline
NON-SDA
Active Member 2019

Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
Canada
Originally Posted by kland
"and on this rock I will build My church,"

It says, He was going to build the church on a rock. Not Peter.


Quote

The disciples, among whom Peter was foremost ***,

*** Peter, standing up with the eleven [on the day of Pentecost], raised his voice and said to [the crowd], "Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words. ..." Acts 2:14


So by raising his voice and saying heed my words, makes him "foremost"?

Question, did any other disciple raise his voice or say heed my words?

You saying "It says, He was going to build the church on a rock. Not Peter." is like saying that the world is going to end, not τέλος or that the sky is falling not πτώση. The disciple's proper name was Simon Bar-Jonah, but Jesus gave him the name by which we now popularly call him, "Peter".

So He is saying, "You Simon are a rock and upon this rock I will build my church". Read the passage for yourself. He did not call any other disciple that, nor did he gave any other disciple that specific name of "rock" or, as we say in English, "Peter".

Re: Rick Warren and Saddleback Church and Wiullow Creek [Re: Rick H] #190803
09/03/19 12:37 PM
09/03/19 12:37 PM
K
kland  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

5500+ Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,425
Midland
I suppose you are wanting me to say:

Petros - a piece of rock
Petra - a mass of rock


Petra
wise man builds house on rock
rocks rent
tomb hewed out of the rock
seed fell on the rock, and are they who hear the word
stumblingstone rock
Israelites drank of the spiritual Rock which was Christ 1 Cor 10:4
a rock of offence
dens in the rock
rocks fall on them.

Petros
name of Peter
And that's all I could find. Can you find something else?

Is this the only passage you can find supporting the idea that Peter is somehow of foremost?
If I were to show you another passage suggesting some other was "foremost" which would you believe and why?

Re: Rick Warren and Saddleback Church and Wiullow Creek [Re: kland] #190812
09/04/19 02:16 AM
09/04/19 02:16 AM
J
James Peterson  Offline
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Active Member 2019

Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
Canada
Originally Posted by kland

Petros
name of Peter
And that's all I could find. Can you find something else?


That is incorrect. That was not the disciple's name, but what Christ called him. And it means rock, being a play on the word and representative of the stones, the foundation upon which the temple was laid.

"And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it." -- Jesus Christ to Simon Bar-Jonah, Mat. 16:18

Peter, that rock, was representative of His 12 disciples who would go on to bear witness of Him to the world and form the foundation of the one and only universal church made up of people who believe in the Saviour, Jesus of Nazareth. The Church of Christ is NOT a registered denomination for which there are trademarks for names and logos, but encompasses all and sundry who love God and follow His Only-begotten Son, even those who don't know Him but who seek to do good always.

Jesus Himself said so. "Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth." John 4:21-24


Re: Rick Warren and Saddleback Church and Willow Creek [Re: Rick H] #190824
09/10/19 12:18 PM
09/10/19 12:18 PM
dedication  Offline
Global Moderator
Supporting Member 2022

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,419
Canada
The Petra (ROCK) is Christ the HEAD STONE.
The petros (living stones) are the people which comprise the church

Peter himself, explains it. In 1 Peter 2.

Let's look at this in the context of what scripture says. Who is the rock upon which the church is built?

In every stone building, one stone is crucial. It is laid first, and it is to ensure that the building is square and stable. It is the rock upon which the weight of the entire structure rests. It is the cornerstone.

Scripture describes Jesus as the "Chief Cornerstone" of our salvation. As the Chief Cornerstone, He alone ensures the stability of of His church.. Isaiah 28:16, "Therefore this says the Lord God: 'Behold, I lay in Zion a stone for a foundation, a tried stone, a precious cornerstone, a sure foundation.'"
Ephesians 2:20 "Jesus Christ being the Chief Cornerstone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple of the Lord,"
2 Sam. 22:2-3, "The Lord is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer; 3 My God, my rock, in whom I take refuge."
Psalm 18:31, "And who is a rock, except our God."
Isaiah 44:8, "Is there any God besides Me, or is there any other Rock? I know of none."
Psalm 118:22 "The stone which the builders rejected has become the head stone"
Eph. 5:23 " Christ is the head of the church: and he is the Savior of the body.


Believers, who accept Jesus as the rock of our salvation, acknowledging Him as Emmanuel, God with us, the eternal Son of God -- what do they represent?
They are the "living stones" of the church.

1 Peter 2

2:6 Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture,

?Behold, I lay in Zion
A chief cornerstone, elect, precious, [Jesus Christ]
And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame.?

2:3 if indeed you have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
2:4 Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious,
2:5 you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
2:6 Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious;
but to those who are disobedient,
2:7?The stone which the builders rejected
Which has become the chief cornerstone,?
2:8 [has become] ?A stone of stumbling
And a rock of offense.?
They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.


Conclusion:
While the apostle Peter is one of the living stones -- occupying a foundational position with the apostles and prophets in Christ's church, he is NOT "foremost" nor is he the "stability" or "head" , That position is occupied by ONLY ONE -- and no finite man can take that place. Christ is the solid rock upon which the church is built. He is the head, and no one claiming peter's name can take that place.
Peter, himself needed to be anchored in the solid rock which is Christ in order to be a worker for the Lord, To reject Christ as the solid rock upon which the church is built and to look upon finite man to take that place is to stumble and fall





Last edited by dedication; 09/10/19 12:25 PM.
Re: Rick Warren and Saddleback Church and Willow Creek [Re: Rick H] #196068
07/20/23 08:49 PM
07/20/23 08:49 PM
G
Garywk  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

Veteran Member
Joined: Jul 2023
Posts: 982
Colville, Wa
In 1997 we lived in Forest Grove, Or. and went to the Gaston, Or. church. The pastor there was a huge fan of Willow Creek. Coincidentally, just before we started attending there he had an affair and got caught. His brother was a big shot in the Oregon Conference so nothing happened to him. It just so happened that his brother was also a big fan of Willow Creek. That Pastor had no use for Ellen White and her writings.

I began preaching there once a month and it lasted until he wormed his way somewhat back into the good graces of the members. I also split time with the head elder teaching his SS class. It was the most active I had ever been in a church I attended.

That pastor tore that church apart with his antics.

He sat in on the SS I attended once and said the following, paraphrased. He said that the sincere members of the church were different spiritually than the rest of the members. It surprised me he would admit that publicly. I don't know what his motives were but I suspect it was at least partially to get back in the good graces of the members.

Last edited by Garywk; 07/20/23 08:51 PM.
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