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2 to 5 - The Trinity #190663
08/26/19 08:26 PM
08/26/19 08:26 PM
Daryl  Offline
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2. The Trinity

There is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three coeternal Persons.
God is immortal, all-powerful, all-knowing, above all, and ever present. He is infinite and beyond human comprehension, yet known through His self-revelation. He is forever worthy of worship, adoration, and service by the whole creation.

(Deut. 6:4; Matt. 28:19; 2 Cor. 13:14; Eph. 4:46; 1 Peter 1:2; 1 Tim. 1:17; Rev. 14:7.)

3. The Father God the eternal Father is the Creator, Source, Sustainer, and Sovereign of all creation. He is just and holy, merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness. The qualities and powers exhibited in the Son and the Holy Spirit are also revelations of the Father.

(Gen. 1:1; Rev. 4:11; 1 Cor. 15:28; John 3:16; 1 John 4:8; 1 Tim. 1:17; Ex. 34:6, 7; John 14:9.)

4. The Son God the eternal Son became incarnate in Jesus Christ. Through Him all things were created, the character of God is revealed, the salvation of humanity is accomplished, and the world is judged. Forever truly God, He became also truly man, Jesus the Christ. He was conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary. He lived and experienced temptation as a human being, but perfectly exemplified the righteousness and love of God. By His miracles He manifested God's power and was attested as God's promised Messiah. He suffered and died voluntarily on the cross for our sins and in our place, was raised from the dead, and ascended to minister in the heavenly sanctuary in our behalf.

He will come again in glory for the final deliverance of His people and the restoration of all things.

(John 1:13, 14; Col. 1:1519; John 10:30; 14:9; Rom. 6:23; 2 Cor. 5:1719; John 5:22; Luke 1:35; Phil. 2:511; Heb. 2:918; 1 Cor. 15:3, 4; Heb. 8:1, 2; John 14:13.)

5. The Holy Spirit
God the eternal Spirit was active with the Father and the Son in Creation, incarnation, and redemption.

He inspired the writers of Scripture.

He filled Christ's life with power.

He draws and convicts human beings; and those who respond He renews and transforms into the image of God.

Sent by the Father and the Son to be always with His children, He extends spiritual gifts to the church, empowers it to bear witness to Christ, and in harmony with the Scriptures leads it into all truth.

(Gen. 1:1, 2; Luke 1:35; 4:18; Acts 10:38; 2 Peter 1:21; 2 Cor. 3:18; Eph. 4:11, 12; Acts 1:8; John 14:1618, 26; 15:26, 27; 16:713.)



In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: 2 to 5 - The Trinity [Re: Daryl] #190726
08/31/19 02:32 PM
08/31/19 02:32 PM
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The Wanderer  Offline
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Originally Posted by Daryl
2. The Trinity

5. The Holy Spirit </b> God the eternal Spirit was active with the Father and the Son in Creation, incarnation, and redemption. <P>He inspired the writers of Scripture. <P>He filled Christ's life with power. <P>He draws and convicts human beings; and those who respond He renews and transforms into the image of God.<P>Sent by the Father and the Son to be always with His children, He extends spiritual gifts to the church, empowers it to bear witness to Christ, and in harmony with the Scriptures leads it into all truth.

<B>(Gen. 1:1, 2; Luke 1:35; 4:18; Acts 10:38; 2 Peter 1:21; 2 Cor. 3:18; Eph. 4:11, 12; Acts 1:8; John 14:1618, 26; 15:26, 27; 16:713.)</b>
One of the main doctrines that interested me before I joined the Church, was this one. It would be too much to explain in one post, but for now, I can offer the following, as a testimony, of sorts:

Quote
You also gave Your good Spirit to instruct [ME], And did not withhold Your manna from [my] mouth, And gave [me] water for [my] thirst.?(Neh 9:20)

I will share more thoughts on the Holy Spirit, as time permits; but I must say, the evidence for this doctrine, throughout both OT & NT and in the SOP is something I find encouraging.


"The worst foes of my spiritual life have never been hostile circumstance."

"There is always a little bit of light" (Micah 7:8)
https://www.lightintheclouds.net/word

Sincerely, IN Christ; and THROUGH The Spirit


- The Wanderer
Re: 2 to 5 - The Trinity [Re: Daryl] #190734
08/31/19 07:10 PM
08/31/19 07:10 PM
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Theophilus  Offline
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I always thought that's why the cherubim say "Holy, Holy, Holy" for all three members of the Godhead.


I am not worthy of the least of all the mercies, and of all the truth, which Thou hast shewed unto Thy servant;...
Gen 32:10
Re: 2 to 5 - The Trinity [Re: Daryl] #190736
08/31/19 07:16 PM
08/31/19 07:16 PM
Daryl  Offline
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Perhaps.

I never thought of it that way before.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: 2 to 5 - The Trinity [Re: Theophilus] #190738
08/31/19 07:27 PM
08/31/19 07:27 PM
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The Wanderer  Offline
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Originally Posted by Theophilus
I always thought that's why the cherubim say "Holy, Holy, Holy" for all three members of the Godhead.

I agree, thats actually quite true, and what I am sure they had in mind. Likely one of the reasons the Psalmist prayed:
Quote
Do not cast me away from Your presence, And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me. (Psalms 51:11)
This is a very important text to come back to in this topic. One, of many.
Quote
The Holy Spirit alone is able to work with us, in us, and through us, giving us a character which God can approve. The Lord loves His people. With the growth of the Christian life there will come the want of a deeper and more perfect experience. Nothing can meet the necessities of sinful, erring men but the perfect sacrifice of Christ. . . . {2MR 12.1}

One of the many ways we can know this passage from EGW is true, is simply to see if its supported in scripture, which it certainly is:
Quote
The Work of the Holy Spirit
Joh 16:4? But these things I have told you, that when the time comes, you may remember that I told you of them. "And these things I did not say to you at the beginning, because I was with you.?
Joh 16:5? "But now I go away to Him who sent Me, and none of you asks Me, 'Where are You going?'?
Joh 16:6? But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart.?
Joh 16:7? Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.?
Joh 16:8? And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:?
Joh 16:9? of sin, because they do not believe in Me;?
Joh 16:10? of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more;?
Joh 16:11? of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.?
Joh 16:12? "I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.?
Joh 16:13? However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.?
Joh 16:14? He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you.?
Joh 16:15? All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.?

Verse 13 is another very important text that helps to sort out all of the "mysteries" being put forth.


"The worst foes of my spiritual life have never been hostile circumstance."

"There is always a little bit of light" (Micah 7:8)
https://www.lightintheclouds.net/word

Sincerely, IN Christ; and THROUGH The Spirit


- The Wanderer
Re: 2 to 5 - The Trinity [Re: Theophilus] #190739
08/31/19 08:04 PM
08/31/19 08:04 PM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted by Theophilus
I always thought that's why the cherubim say "Holy, Holy, Holy" for all three members of the Godhead.


The same logic can then be used to say there are 3 temples.

Jeremiah 7:4 Trust you not in lying words, saying, The temple of the LORD, The temple of the LORD, The temple of the LORD, are these.

Last edited by APL; 08/31/19 08:04 PM.

Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: 2 to 5 - The Trinity [Re: Daryl] #190740
08/31/19 08:05 PM
08/31/19 08:05 PM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted by Daryl
Perhaps.

I never thought of it that way before.
Perhaps? Maybe? Possibly? Daryl - that is lukewarm talk.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: 2 to 5 - The Trinity [Re: Daryl] #190741
08/31/19 08:07 PM
08/31/19 08:07 PM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted by wanderer
Verse 13 is another very important text that helps to sort out all of the "mysteries" being put forth.
John 16:13 However, when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.

WHO is the Truth? John 14:6 Jesus said to him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes to the Father, but by me.
 
John 14:16-18 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; (17) Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it sees him not, neither knows him: but you know him; for he dwells with you, and shall be in you. (18) I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
 
Christ is the Truth!


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: 2 to 5 - The Trinity [Re: APL] #190743
08/31/19 08:26 PM
08/31/19 08:26 PM
T
Theophilus  Offline
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Florida. USA
Originally Posted by APL
Originally Posted by Theophilus
I always thought that's why the cherubim say "Holy, Holy, Holy" for all three members of the Godhead.


The same logic can then be used to say there are 3 temples.

Jeremiah 7:4 Trust you not in lying words, saying, The temple of the LORD, The temple of the LORD, The temple of the LORD, are these.

But that says trust you not in lying words, that is supposed to restate and validate the temple of the Lord, but in truth, it isn't the temple

But The cherubim are not gonna lie. And scripture does not say their words are lies. It is constant praise to God.

Last edited by Theophilus; 08/31/19 08:27 PM.

I am not worthy of the least of all the mercies, and of all the truth, which Thou hast shewed unto Thy servant;...
Gen 32:10
Re: 2 to 5 - The Trinity [Re: Daryl] #190748
08/31/19 10:50 PM
08/31/19 10:50 PM
Daryl  Offline
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ADMIN HAT ON!!!!

Posts in violation of the updated Forum Rules have been removed.

Any further post violations will result in a one week ban.

ADMIN HAT OFF!!!


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: 2 to 5 - The Trinity [Re: Theophilus] #190751
09/01/19 02:18 AM
09/01/19 02:18 AM
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The Wanderer  Offline
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Central Alberta
Originally Posted by Theophilus
It is constant praise to God.

This is actually a good point to be made; in the midst of all our confusion, The Holy Spirit inspires praise to Christ.

I will only remark briefly on the anti-trinity sentiments in this topic, as they really belong in a different section of the forum meant for that purpose, and I will go to that section when I can to expand more on that point.

Basically, I have seen one, particular concern, on multiple web sites regarding John 14:6, and it is in light of the general tone of said comments, sometimes on this site, and on other ones that I wanted to comment about because it is an important and central point to understanding the topic of "the trinity."

John 14:6 is a beautiful text, full of instruction and guidance for God's people. There we see, in writing, that the way to salvation is through Jesus alone. WE have this hope!! The LOCUS of The Holy Spirit, does not take away anything from this powerful text, as the whole part and parcel of The Spirit's ministry has very little to do with keeping us all in 100% agreement on the physical Substance of Deity, because The Spirit's role, and His power, and His leading, is all designed to lead to Jesus, to point to Him as "The Way," and we could have no better Advocate, in our hearts, than The Holy Spirit, to bring home the salvation truth of "in Christ." There would be no gospel message if it wasn't for Jesus. Unfortunately, when we try to say things like "the Spirit is a possession" that we can all obtain; then we are circumventing the gospel of Jesus Christ. Why would we need "The Holy Spirit" if that was just a possession? When Jesus said that no one can come to The Father; except by Him," was He talking about through His physical Substance, or was He talking about the LOCUS of trinity, and His sacrifice on Calvary, because that is what our gospel message is about?

When we say that we access The Father through Christ, it is The Spirit who informs and empowers us in that direction. "Through Christ" means, through His astounding VICTORY "Through Jesus", means because of Calvary, and "by His shed blood." This can be shown when we let scripture interpret scripture, and if there was ever a subject where we should do that; it would be this one:

But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ." (Eph 2:13), so it is clear that "the blood of Christ" is the context by which we have access to The Father; and with Jesus now "at the right hand" of God, (Heb 10:12 says Jesus 'forever, sat down at the right hand of God,' and forever means forever, so how do we access The Father, THROUGH Christ??), and we are left with The Spirit, in His express capacity of leading us to Calvary.

1 Pet 1:19 reinforces this view, by telling us emphatically, we are redeemed "with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:" Truly, EGW knew what she was talking about when she said "there is one central truth in study of the Scriptures: 'Christ, and Him crucified.' All other truths are invested with power & influence, ACCORDING TO THEIR RELATION TO THIS THEME." ?

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8. {FLB 50.1} There is one great central truth to be kept ever before the mind in the searching of the Scriptures--Christ and Him crucified. Every other truth is invested with influence and power corresponding to its relation to this theme. . . . The soul palsied by sin can be endowed with life only through the work wrought out upon the cross by the Author of our salvation. {FLB 50.2}

And so, when we are talking about how we access God The Father; and we say "only through Christ," then we say, "by His blood." Not meaning that we have to physically stand in front of Him to access God! Can we relate our understanding of any part of "the message" to THIS theme? Is our doctrine related to this "blood of Christ," or are we pedalling our latest come-backs about the physical Substance of Deity?

I cannot imagine The Holy Spirit being simply relegated as a possession.

IF The Spirit could be proven to simply be a "possession" then The Psalmist really needs to learn how to pray!

Quote
Do not cast me away from Your presence, And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me. (Psalms 51:11)


Just as God, as in God The Father, God The Son, and God The Spirit existed from eternity in fellowship and activities together, (as seen in Creation week), we, the human agents of His salvation, were created in "His image" which has nothing to do with the physical Substance of Deity; but everything to do with God's chosen method/s of relationship to us, through Jesus, through The Spirit, who are "ONE" "by the blood of Christ." The shed blood is what trinity is "ONE" about.

Jesus defined the unpardonable sin as "'blasphemy against the Holy Spirit," NEVER was this said about Jesus, or The Father!

"'Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come'" (Mat 12:31-32). This could be true only if the Holy Spirit is God." IF The Holy Spirit was not God, then there would be no blasphemy involved. Mark 12:31 is very specific in making a particular distinction between "The Son of man, [Jesus], and The Holy Spirit. Definitely TWO distinct Personalities there.

The Holy Spirit is equally distinct from The Son and The Father, but only on the basis of a declared LOCUS of His activities throughout all time and places where The Spirit is mentioned, in scripture. All THREE are of the same Substance; and just because that is something we cannot understand, it does not follow that it is somehow not true. Scripture declares this and other things, and offers no proof for them at all! So that cannot be used as an excuse to deny the truth. We believe in the resurrection, for example, and there is very little evidence or description about HOW thats actually going to happen; it defies all known laws of physics and biology yet we call it an essential truth, as does the Bible. It is on this same basis we can assume from brief statements in scripture on The Holy Spirit, that God said it that way because its right. God would not tell us that Jesus did everything "THROUGH THE ETERNAL SPIRIT, (Heb 9:14), and then retract that a few verses later! Its ludicrous to even suggest that! I see The Holy Spirit of Scripture as not having a physical Substance that we can define, and scripture doent do that! The Bible, while at times briefly declaring something about Substance of Deity, does NOT in fact make distinctions in the physical Substance of any of The Three, only in their implicated or express LOCUS throughout Bible history. Deity must not ever be circumscribed by double-blind statements of grammar, or human understandings or interpretations. Deity cannot be bound by human ideas of "person," and we have no business to keep forcing scripture to fit that agenda.

Is it then, any wonder, that the doctrine of The Holy Spirit is one of the most attacked, one of the most confused (by us) teachings of the church today?

Why Do We Need The Holy Spirit?

Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit Himself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.?
And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. (Rom 8:26-27)

It is essential to recognize that there are very few scriptures, if any, that when talking about God The Father, God The Son, or God The Spirit, are trying to make a statement about the actual physical Substance of Deity. Of any Deity. Well; except maybe for things such as the following:

Bel boweth down, Nebo stoopeth, their idols were upon the beasts, and upon the cattle: your carriages were heavy loaden; they are a burden to the weary beast. (Isa 46:1)

This kind of "deity" is easily defined by the fact that they were/are carried on the backs of beasts. But there is no scripture which similarly defines the literal, physical Substance of Deity; be it The Father, The Son, or The Spirit.

In the plan of salvation, the constant and preferred locus of trinity is always centered in relationship, both amongst the members of "the eternal Godhead," and between them and to God's people. Just as before the Creation, their locus was in their collective relationship and activities with one another; we were created "in the image of God," certainly not meaning we would become God too, but definitely indicating that we were created, within the same, eternal locus, for relationship, and collective communication both with "God" and with our fellow human beings. The Psalmist certainly reflected that he knew of this essential locus when he prayed:

Quote
Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. (Psalms 51:11)

This text shows that "God's presence" in this case, was accomplished by and through The Holy Spirit. Just like Jesus, in Hebrews 9:14).

Before Creation; the specific LOCUS of trinity was their relationship and activity together. Gen 1:2 is pretty clear: The Holy Spirit was there, and we know from the NT that Jesus was there, as well as The Father who said to the other TWO: "And God said, Let us make man in our image..." The word "us" says it all! Father, Son, Holy Spirit! Co-eternal. Co-existent. "in our image," surely cannot mean that we will become God! It was NEVER about Substance, but always about who is doing what! The LOCUS of trinity is always the same.

Gen 1:26 (Eph 3:15). A Larger Family.--Infinite love--how great it is! God made the world to enlarge heaven. He desires a larger family of created intelligences (MS 78, 1901). {1BC 1081.2}

For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,?Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, (Eph 3:14-15)

Just as "trinity" is in the context of relationship, and "family in heaven," so too is "created in His image." It is this express image of relationship and fellowship that The Eternal Godhead desired at our creation, and yes, we have managed to tarnish that image immensely! BUT this is exactly how the locus of "Christ & Him crucified" come into play, and brings about, not just our salvation, but the restoration of lost relationship and fellowship, in the Church, and in heaven & Earth. The Bible says that "The Spirit speaks EXPRESSLY" that in the latter days, many will preach the doctrines of demons. (1 Tim 4:1). Could said "doctrines of demons" be aiming at all the many "winds of doctrine" about "trinity," and what God is intending for our eternal destiny? Could it be that this "doctrine of demons" has been composed of anything that omits, or lessens the need for, or use of, Calvary, and how "Christ and Him crucified" is the great, central truth, around which all other truths are clustered?

The price of [mankind's] redemption has been paid, and all he has and is should be sprinkled with the blood of Christ, dedicated to God; for it belongs to Him. {FLB 50.7} [compare also Gal 6:14, etc].

Those who are poor in Spirit are those who will inherit the kingdom (Matthew 5:3). That is, those who recognize the need for more of the Spirit in their lives, not those who feel they need more things in their lives. To her son Edson and his wife, Ellen White wrote about full surrender, saying, "Before giving us the baptism of the Holy Spirit, our heavenly Father will try us, to see if we can live without dishonoring Him."

How much more of the Spirit we would see in the church if the things holding us to the world were to be released! "The church is asleep as to the work it might do if it would give up all for Christ. A true spirit of self-sacrifice would be an argument for the reality and power of the gospel which the world could not misunderstand or gainsay, and abundant blessings would be poured upon the church." (4T 483-484)

Shrinking Church Syndrome

Many churches in North America barely exist. They are reminiscent of the valley of dry, dead bones described in Ezekiel 37. They have good, decent people in them, but they are devoid of the Spirit. They subsist with few resources, a limited pool of talent and youth, and they have not won a soul to Jesus in years. Their days are filled with complaints, corrections, or corporate pity. They make absolutely no lasting impact on the surrounding community. But if they really wanted, this situation could change radically. The servant of the Lord gives us the diagnosis, as well as the prescription, for our condition in these churches:

Quote
"The promise of the Spirit is not appreciated as it should be. Its fulfillment is not realized as it might be. It is the absence of the Spirit that makes the gospel ministry so powerless. Learning, talents, eloquence, every natural or acquired endowment, may be possessed; but without the presence of the Spirit of God, no heart will be touched, no sinner be won to Christ.

On the other hand, if they are connected with Christ, if the gifts of the Spirit are theirs, the poorest and most ignorant of His disciples will have a power that will tell upon hearts. God makes them the channel for the outworking of the highest influence in the universe."5 And again: "The disciples did not ask for a blessing for themselves. They were weighted with the burden of souls. . . . They claimed the endowment of power that Christ had promised. Then it was that the Holy Spirit was poured out, and thousands were converted in a day. So it may be now. Let Christians put away all dissension and give themselves to God for the saving of the lost. Let them ask in faith for the promised blessing, and it will come." (8T 21)


Quote
The diagnosis is dissension and lack of interest in the Spirit, allowing other things to crowd out God. The prescription is connection with Christ and a desire to ask for the Holy Spirit so as to be a blessing to others. Jesus promised: "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these [His miracles] he will do; because I go to the Father" (John 14:12). [Clouzet, Ron E. M.. Adventism's Greatest Need . Pacific Press Publishing Association. Kindle Edition].

In a future post, I would like to remark more on The Holy Spirit, and His role in this idea of the "greater works than these," part of John 14:12.

Some closing thoughts:

A number of statements in Scripture mention all three members of the Godhead, making them equal in nature and rank, though not in function. The well-known baptismal formula that was part of the Great Commission states that Christ's followers must baptize new disciples "in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit" (Matthew 28:19). The formula highlights a single name, not three different ones, making each and all of them of the same substance or nature as the others. The apostolic blessing of 2 Corinthians 13:14 reveals the same triune God: "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all." And the spiritual gifts lesson by Paul makes the same point by speaking of "varieties of gifts but the same Spirit," "varieties of ministries, and the same Lord," and "varieties of effects, but the same God" (1 Corinthians 12:4?6, emphasis supplied). In Peter's greeting, we find the triune Godhead linked together as before, yet giving hints of their various functions: "Peter, . . . to those who reside as aliens, scattered . . . , who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, that you may obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood" (1 Peter 1:1, 2).

The Bible also identifies, in the Holy Spirit, a number of attributes characteristic only of persons. For instance, the Holy Spirit wills. Paul and his companions were "forbidden by the Holy Spirit to speak the word in Asia; and when they had come to Mysia, they were trying to go into Bithynia, and the Spirit of Jesus did not permit them" (Acts 16:7, 8). In 1 Corinthians 12 we are told, after several gifts of the Spirit are mentioned, that "the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills" (v. 11). Also, the Holy Spirit is said to have a mind. Paul reminds us that "he who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is" (Romans 8:27). Such mind, the Spirit uses to intercede on our behalf: "for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes . . . with groanings too deep for words" (v. 26). As only persons can, the Spirit gives instruction, as well. Paul writes to Timothy:
Quote
"The Spirit explicitly says that in the latter days some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons" (1 Timothy 4:1).

Nehemiah reminisced about how God had given Israel His "good Spirit to instruct them" (Nehemiah 9:20). And Jesus promised His disciples that when facing danger or stress because of Him: "the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say" (Luke 12:12). In addition, no force can communicate verbally, as the Holy Spirit does. Only persons do. For example, the Spirit "says" to the churches what we find in Revelation 2 (vv. 7, 11, 17, 29) and 3 (vv. 6, 13, 22).

And He answers the voice from heaven in Revelation 14:13. Finally, we are told that the "Spirit and the bride say, 'Come'" (Revelation 22:17), again suggesting qualities of personhood. A further characteristic is the fact that the Holy Spirit is capable of feelings. Paul counsels the Ephesians to make sure not to "grieve the Holy Spirit of God" (Ephesians 4:30); and Isaiah recalls how Israel had so stubbornly "rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit; therefore, He turned Himself to become their enemy" (Isaiah 63:10).

And the Spirit has influence. For Paul assures us that "no one can say 'Jesus is Lord,' except by the Holy Spirit" (1 Corinthians 12:3). Jesus promised that "when [the Spirit] comes, [He] will convict the world concerning sin, and righteousness, and judgment" (John 16:8). Finally, only persons can love, and all three members of the Godhead love (see John 3:16 and 13:1). Paul appeals to the Romans: "Now I urge you, brethren, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit [to pray for me]" (Romans 15:30). And he had already told them, in Romans 5, that "hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit" (5:5, emphasis supplied).


"The worst foes of my spiritual life have never been hostile circumstance."

"There is always a little bit of light" (Micah 7:8)
https://www.lightintheclouds.net/word

Sincerely, IN Christ; and THROUGH The Spirit


- The Wanderer
Re: 2 to 5 - The Trinity [Re: Daryl] #190752
09/01/19 02:30 AM
09/01/19 02:30 AM
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The Wanderer  Offline
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Here are a few more thoughts from the book: Adventism's Greatest Need:"

What does Paul mean by "Christ in you"? Is that really possible? Consider this statement: "It is through the Spirit that Christ dwells in us; and the Spirit of God, received into the heart by faith, is the beginning of the life eternal."1 Did you read that? Through the Spirit Christ dwells in us. To dwell is to live or stay as a permanent resident. Can you fathom the thought of Jesus living in you? Consider this other statement: "Transformation of character is the testimony to the world of an indwelling Christ. The Spirit of God produces a new life in the soul, bringing the thoughts and desires into obedience to the will of Christ; and the inward man is renewed in the image of God."2 The abundant life that Jesus promised (John 10:10), and that everyone wishes they had, is nothing less and nothing other than Jesus in you through the Holy Spirit.

When Jesus promised the Holy Spirit to His disciples, He was giving them Himself through the Comforter, and that is why it would be to their advantage that He leave (John 16:7). "When He comes," Jesus said in reference to the Spirit, "He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you" (v. 14). Paul says that "if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him [Christ]" (Romans 8:9). And then he says, "If Christ is in you . . . the spirit is alive" (v. 10). It was "the Spirit of Christ within" the Old Testament prophets that led them to prophesy of "the grace that would come" (1 Peter 1:11, 10).

Is the "Spirit of Christ" a spirit emanating from Christ, or is He the Holy Spirit? Isaiah had prophesied that the "Spirit of the Lord," the Third Person of the Godhead, would rest on the Messiah?"the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord" (Isaiah 11:2). The Spirit is mentioned seven times in this passage. In the book of Revelation, seven spirits are mentioned in reference to the Lamb who was slain (Revelation 5:6). In the Bible, the number seven denotes completion, perfection. So Jesus was the One full of the Spirit, the supreme example of One with the totality of God's presence in His life, the One who daily received the baptism of the Spirit. And this is the reason Paul and Peter used the expression "the Spirit of Christ." Christ was so full of the Spirit, they were as one and the same, even though distinct Persons.

When Jesus promised His disciples the gift of the Spirit, He gave them the reason they would need Him: "You will receive power . . . and you will be My witnesses" (Acts 1:8). Power to witness. Since a witness is someone who can give first-hand report of the facts, witnessing has little to do with ability but a lot to do with availability. Witnessing is listed nowhere in the New Testament as one of many spiritual gifts. Not something God grants to specific individuals to do His work, it is rather something everyone who has honestly followed Jesus is capable of doing. Witnessing, in short, is the privilege of the converted, not the talented.

When the disciples prayed for the endowment of the Spirit in the Upper Room, they came to the point of full surrender, as never before. The result was an ardent desire to witness for their Master and Savior. "One interest prevailed; one subject of emulation swallowed up all others. The ambition of the believers was to reveal the likeness of Christ's character and to labor for the enlargement of His kingdom."1 Please note that it says one interest, yet it identifies two of them: revealing Christ's character and reaching out to expand God's kingdom. This is the proverbial two sides of one coin. When we receive the Spirit, it will be seen by the lives we live and in the burden we have for the lost.

Clouzet, Ron E. M.. Adventism's Greatest Need . Pacific Press Publishing Association. Kindle Edition.


"The worst foes of my spiritual life have never been hostile circumstance."

"There is always a little bit of light" (Micah 7:8)
https://www.lightintheclouds.net/word

Sincerely, IN Christ; and THROUGH The Spirit


- The Wanderer
Re: 2 to 5 - The Trinity [Re: Daryl] #190777
09/02/19 02:18 AM
09/02/19 02:18 AM
APL  Offline
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Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
What is man's greatest need?

Christ is the "Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world." John 1:9. As through Christ every human being has life, so also through Him every soul receives some ray of divine light. Not only intellectual but spiritual power, a perception of right, a desire for goodness, exists in every heart. But against these principles there is struggling an antagonistic power. The result of the eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil is manifest in every man's experience. There is in his nature a bent to evil, a force which, unaided, he cannot resist. To withstand this force, to attain that ideal which in his inmost soul he accepts as alone worthy, he can find help in but one power. That power is Christ. Co-operation with that power is man's greatest need. {Ed 29.1}


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: 2 to 5 - The Trinity [Re: Daryl] #194256
07/23/21 09:46 PM
07/23/21 09:46 PM
Matthew 10vs8  Offline
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Ili Ili, AS
Originally Posted by Daryl
2. The Trinity

There is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three coeternal Persons.
God is immortal, all-powerful, all-knowing, above all, and ever present. He is infinite and beyond human comprehension, yet known through His self-revelation. He is forever worthy of worship, adoration, and service by the whole creation.

(Deut. 6:4; Matt. 28:19; 2 Cor. 13:14; Eph. 4:46; 1 Peter 1:2; 1 Tim. 1:17; Rev. 14:7.) ...
I would like to address this part first.

Neither the Bible (KJB), nor the SoP/ToJ, use the word "trinity" (in applying to Godhead, though a reference to "trinity" exists in Lt 43 May 19, 1898, par. 25, in regards the world's "trinity", lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes and pride of life). This is a fact, to which I hope all acknowledge.

I think there is a possible safe way to use the word ("trinity"), so long as properly defined, but more often than not, I think it unsafe to use, since it (the word) carries so much incorrect definitional baggage and bad history. I also think that the wording of the 'fundamental' is actually teaching Roman Catholicism's definition of 'God', to which the pioneers fought against (by words) in their materials. I also think that the definition confuses "God" and "Godhead".

It uses words like "one God", "unity" of "Persons" (plural) and then switches to "He" (singular) referring to the "one God". That is a great mistake.

The verses presented do not teach that definition. What they (verses) do teach is rather in contrast to the above, being a (eternal heavenly) "trio" or a "threefold", an "us", "our", "we", the JEHOVAH Elohiym, or the mighty ruling family JEHOVAH.

I think that fundamental #1 (aka: Bible as the final authority in all matters of faith and practice) ought to take precedence over this 'fundamental' (#2), and we ought to correct fundamental #2 by fundamental #1.

Can we discuss this please?

Last edited by Matthew 10vs8; 07/23/21 09:51 PM.
Re: 2 to 5 - The Trinity [Re: Matthew 10vs8] #194257
07/24/21 08:45 AM
07/24/21 08:45 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Originally Posted by Matthew 10vs8
I think that fundamental #1 (aka: Bible as the final authority in all matters of faith and practice) ought to take precedence over this 'fundamental' (#2), and we ought to correct fundamental #2 by fundamental #1.

Can we discuss this please?


That conversation has been taking place behind closed doors, in the moderators' chambers, because Daryl has not permitted it to be public.

William Miller's dream should apply here. One can never damage or even tarnish the truth by examining it. I agree with you, Matthew, that it should be discussed more openly.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: 2 to 5 - The Trinity [Re: Green Cochoa] #194258
07/24/21 04:45 PM
07/24/21 04:45 PM
Matthew 10vs8  Offline
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Originally Posted by Green Cochoa
Originally Posted by Matthew 10vs8
I think that fundamental #1 (aka: Bible as the final authority in all matters of faith and practice) ought to take precedence over this 'fundamental' (#2), and we ought to correct fundamental #2 by fundamental #1.

Can we discuss this please?


That conversation has been taking place behind closed doors
I see. Can you provide a link to it please.


Originally Posted by Green Cochoa
, in the moderators' chambers, because Daryl has not permitted it to be public.
I do not see any reason why it should not be public, since the 'fundamental' is publicly expressed, and also since the 'fundamental' is not a "creed" to begin with, and can be corrected by scripture at any time, by anyone, since it is not to be 'set in stone' by the General Conference as a test of admittance (thus making it a "creed", which it is again, not supposed to be).

Jesus said:

Joh_18:20? Jesus answered him, I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing.

I think the Bible is clear, and even the SoP/ToJ is clear about this on investigating truth and that truth can withstand intense scrutiny. If Daryl is against this, what Bible and SoP/ToJ does he have as counsel against such, and let him present it as force of reason, instead of force of arms.

Originally Posted by Green Cochoa
... One can never damage or even tarnish the truth by examining it.
I agree with you about examining.

Originally Posted by Green Cochoa
I agree with you, Matthew, that it should be discussed more openly.
I would not even say "more openly", I would just say "openly". I have no fear to investigate prayerfully, and respectfully. Let all know that we are people of the Book (Bible).

Originally Posted by Green Cochoa

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Thank you Green Cochoa.

Re: 2 to 5 - The Trinity [Re: Matthew 10vs8] #194259
07/24/21 06:24 PM
07/24/21 06:24 PM
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The Wanderer  Offline
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Posts: 545
Central Alberta
Originally Posted by Matthew 10vs8
Jesus said:

Joh_18:20? Jesus answered him, I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing.

I think the Bible is clear, and even the SoP/ToJ is clear about this on investigating truth and that truth can withstand intense scrutiny. If Daryl is against this, what Bible and SoP/ToJ does he have as counsel against such, and let him present it as force of reason, instead of force of arms..


While this statement is of course "true" it may not, in fact, be complete. There are quite a few places in scripture where Jesus says "tell no one," or words to that effect, and so it devolves upon us all to cut Daryl some slack here because I have known him for many years and I think Daryl likely has the fact in mind that not all things need to be told or shown to the general public. Thats what Jesus says in scripture. There are many reasons for this. But first, some evidence for my statement from scripture:

Quote
Mat_8:4? And Jesus said to him, "See that you tell no one; but go your way, show yourself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, as a testimony to them."
Mat_16:20? Then He commanded His disciples that they should tell no one that He was Jesus the Christ.
Mar_7:36? Then He commanded them that they should tell no one; but the more He commanded them, the more widely they proclaimed it.
Mar_8:30? Then He strictly warned them that they should tell no one about Him.
Mar_9:9? Now as they came down from the mountain, He commanded them that they should tell no one the things they had seen, till the Son of Man had risen from the dead.
Luk_5:14? And He charged him to tell no one, "But go and show yourself to the priest, and make an offering for your cleansing, as a testimony to them, just as Moses commanded."
Luk_8:56? And her parents were astonished, but He charged them to tell no one what had happened.
Act_23:22? So the commander let the young man depart, and commanded him, "Tell no one that you have revealed these things to me."


Additionally, I am thinking there is nothing "wrong" with a "creed" as long as it is set in Scripture. I think sometimes people are tending to use the word "creed" in a pejorative sense, which often makes no sense but nonsense Jesus says to

"sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear;" (1 Pet 3:15) and so its absolutely NOT wrong to use such things as "creeds" in explaining the main points of our faith. (see also 1 John 1:1-3)


"The worst foes of my spiritual life have never been hostile circumstance."

"There is always a little bit of light" (Micah 7:8)
https://www.lightintheclouds.net/word

Sincerely, IN Christ; and THROUGH The Spirit


- The Wanderer
Re: 2 to 5 - The Trinity [Re: The Wanderer] #194263
07/25/21 05:35 AM
07/25/21 05:35 AM
Matthew 10vs8  Offline
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Ili Ili, AS
Originally Posted by The Wanderer
Originally Posted by Matthew 10vs8
Jesus said:

Joh_18:20? Jesus answered him, I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing.

I think the Bible is clear, and even the SoP/ToJ is clear about this on investigating truth and that truth can withstand intense scrutiny. If Daryl is against this, what Bible and SoP/ToJ does he have as counsel against such, and let him present it as force of reason, instead of force of arms..


While this statement is of course "true" it may not, in fact, be complete. There are quite a few places in scripture where Jesus says "tell no one," or words to that effect, and so it devolves upon us all to cut Daryl some slack here because I have known him for many years and I think Daryl likely has the fact in mind that not all things need to be told or shown to the general public. Thats what Jesus says in scripture. There are many reasons for this. But first, some evidence for my statement from scripture:

Quote
Mat_8:4? And Jesus said to him, "See that you tell no one; but go your way, show yourself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, as a testimony to them."
Mat_16:20? Then He commanded His disciples that they should tell no one that He was Jesus the Christ.
Mar_7:36? Then He commanded them that they should tell no one; but the more He commanded them, the more widely they proclaimed it.
Mar_8:30? Then He strictly warned them that they should tell no one about Him.
Mar_9:9? Now as they came down from the mountain, He commanded them that they should tell no one the things they had seen, till the Son of Man had risen from the dead.
Luk_5:14? And He charged him to tell no one, "But go and show yourself to the priest, and make an offering for your cleansing, as a testimony to them, just as Moses commanded."
Luk_8:56? And her parents were astonished, but He charged them to tell no one what had happened.
Act_23:22? So the commander let the young man depart, and commanded him, "Tell no one that you have revealed these things to me."


Additionally, I am thinking there is nothing "wrong" with a "creed" as long as it is set in Scripture. I think sometimes people are tending to use the word "creed" in a pejorative sense, which often makes no sense but nonsense Jesus says to

"sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear;" (1 Pet 3:15) and so its absolutely NOT wrong to use such things as "creeds" in explaining the main points of our faith. (see also 1 John 1:1-3)

Did you read the context when Jesus used the words "tell no one"? You are misusing those texts. I think this forum needs to cut the conversation some slack, and not hold the conversation back from public discussion. If it is not to be discussed, I am done responding to everything else except what I asked to discuss.

"... The Bible, and the Bible alone, is to be our creed, the sole bond of union; all who bow to this Holy Word will be in harmony. ..." - 1 Selected Messages, 416

"... The prayer of Christ to his Father, contained in the seventeenth chapter of John, is to be our church creed. It shows us that our difference and disunion are dishonoring to God. Read the whole chapter, verse by verse. ... " ?Manuscript 12, 1899

Fundamentals can be discussed, challenged (even openly), etc., by the scripture, as they are not a "Creed" (ever, and that is how the GC expresses them - ie not a Creed), yet the Bible is. To sit here and block public discussion of even one of them, means something is up, there is an unhealthy fear of something. Now, it is their forum ,and they can do whatever they like, but that no way approves of it being in the right.

Re: 2 to 5 - The Trinity [Re: Daryl] #194264
07/25/21 02:02 PM
07/25/21 02:02 PM
dedication  Online Content
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This forum has been in operation for many years, and yes, the topic was openly discussed with pages and pages of posts from multiple sides. It clearly showed that there is NO MEETING ground and it degenerates into spiritual abuse and disrespectful comments concerning the Most Holy Godhead. For those of us who accept the FULL and eternal (from everlasting to everlasting) deity of Christ as a separate being yet one with the Father, we will always see the opposing side as an attack upon the full deity of our Savior Jesus Christ and an attack on the personhood of the Holy Spirit. And the opposing side will always see us as apostates.

And yes, "our difference and disunion are dishonoring to God"

Thus yes, an end was put to the discussions.

Re: 2 to 5 - The Trinity [Re: Matthew 10vs8] #194266
07/25/21 02:42 PM
07/25/21 02:42 PM
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The Wanderer  Offline
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Originally Posted by Matthew 10vs8

I think that fundamental #1 (aka: Bible as the final authority in all matters of faith and practice) ought to take precedence over this 'fundamental' (#2), and we ought to correct fundamental #2 by fundamental #1.

Can we discuss this please?


I would urge followers of this topic to note that the user who made this post did not follow his own rules in the two succeeding posts that he made where he used EGW quotes and not scripture, to "prove" his point about us using only the Bible in discussing fundamental beliefs. EGW has often told people to never use her writings like this.

Last edited by The Wanderer; 07/25/21 02:43 PM.

"The worst foes of my spiritual life have never been hostile circumstance."

"There is always a little bit of light" (Micah 7:8)
https://www.lightintheclouds.net/word

Sincerely, IN Christ; and THROUGH The Spirit


- The Wanderer
Re: 2 to 5 - The Trinity [Re: dedication] #194267
07/25/21 02:44 PM
07/25/21 02:44 PM
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The Wanderer  Offline
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Central Alberta
Originally Posted by dedication
This forum has been in operation for many years, and yes, the topic was openly discussed with pages and pages of posts from multiple sides. It clearly showed that there is NO MEETING ground and it degenerates into spiritual abuse and disrespectful comments concerning the Most Holy Godhead. For those of us who accept the FULL and eternal (from everlasting to everlasting) deity of Christ as a separate being yet one with the Father, we will always see the opposing side as an attack upon the full deity of our Savior Jesus Christ and an attack on the personhood of the Holy Spirit. And the opposing side will always see us as apostates.

And yes, "our difference and disunion are dishonoring to God"

Thus yes, an end was put to the discussions.


I would agree with this post for sure! Well said.


"The worst foes of my spiritual life have never been hostile circumstance."

"There is always a little bit of light" (Micah 7:8)
https://www.lightintheclouds.net/word

Sincerely, IN Christ; and THROUGH The Spirit


- The Wanderer
Re: 2 to 5 - The Trinity [Re: Matthew 10vs8] #194268
07/25/21 02:52 PM
07/25/21 02:52 PM
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The Wanderer  Offline
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Posts: 545
Central Alberta
Originally Posted by Matthew 10vs8

Did you read the context when Jesus used the words "tell no one"? You are misusing those texts. I think this forum needs to cut the conversation some slack, and not hold the conversation back from public discussion. If it is not to be discussed, I am done responding to everything else except what I asked to discuss..


While making this claim, you have supplied absolutely no evidence of any kind to show how I used those texts "out of context." The reason those verses are used in the correct context here is because sometimes it just isnt a good idea to debate a bunch of pointless stuff in public, and there is nothing wrong with that. The texts I supplied show Jesus asking people in various settings to NOT TELLING anyone what He had done. Daryl appears to be following the example of Jesus

The fundamental beliefs themselves, of course can be shown to the public, but when people want to endlessly "debate" the topic and disparage those who accept the belief as stated in the fundamental, then yes, its time to tuck such topics into a safe zone where the arguers wont be able to accomplish their goal.


"The worst foes of my spiritual life have never been hostile circumstance."

"There is always a little bit of light" (Micah 7:8)
https://www.lightintheclouds.net/word

Sincerely, IN Christ; and THROUGH The Spirit


- The Wanderer
Re: 2 to 5 - The Trinity [Re: Daryl] #194269
07/25/21 07:27 PM
07/25/21 07:27 PM
Daryl  Offline
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ADMIN HAT ON!

Please continue your discussion about FB 2 to 5 at the following link:


https://www.maritime-sda-online.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=38574#Post38574


This thread is closed.


ADMIN HAT OFF!


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
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and do not necessarily represent those of Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine,
as well as the Seventh-day Adventist Church
from the local church level to the General Conference level.

Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine (formerly Maritime SDA OnLine) is also a self-supporting ministry
and is not part of, or affiliated with, or endorsed by
The General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists headquartered in Silver Spring, Maryland
or any of its subsidiaries.

"And He saith unto them, follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men." Matt. 4:19
MARITIME 2ND ADVENT BELIEVERS ONLINE (FORMERLY MARITIME SDA ONLINE) CONSISTING MAINLY OF BOTH MEMBERS & FRIENDS
OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH,
INVITES OTHER MEMBERS & FRIENDS OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD WHO WISHES TO JOIN US!
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