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Re: "Heaven and the Supposed lack of Marriage" [Re: Davros] #190897
09/19/19 12:41 PM
09/19/19 12:41 PM
dedication  Online Content

Global Moderator
5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 5,814
Canada
Death came through sin,
NOT through creation.

Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned-

It's clear -- death came THROUGH sin.


I agree that nothing created has innate immortality or innate life -- only God has innate immortality, only God holds the amazing energy that is life. However God's creation did NOT die as long as the stewards of that creation (mankind) were in harmony with God. It was only when that harmony was broken that death and decay entered.
The only reason life even continued after rebellion against God entered the world, is because Christ stepped in with the amazing covenant of salvation.


It's a little like electrical connection--
When the house is fully connected with electricity the lights are bright and continuous
When the connection with electricity is cut the lights go out UNLESS
there is a back-up battery, which allows dimmer lighting for a limited time.
Before sin -- the perfect creation could live forever, their connection with the source of eternal life was in place.
After sin -- that connection was broken, but Christ stepped in as the "emergency" battery extending limited life, so the full plan of salvation could unfold.
Those who accept Christ have the assurance that the connection with the eternal life is once again established, and that full energy of life will be turned on at the second coming.


God knew that sin would enter the world with all its death and misery
The plan of salvation was already in place before the foundations of the world were laid. (see Rev. 13:8)
So it's not unreasonable to think that God created a reproducing system that COULD continue to exist even while death and decay did it's awful work.

Also -- it was through the reproduction system that Christ, the eternal Son of God, entered the human race fully human, to redeem the fallen race, so someday soon eternal life will become a living reality.

When sin is no more -- the reproduction system will no longer be needed --
Why worry about that?
Let's rejoice that salvation and eternal life is granted to all who will respond to Christ and follow Him.

Re: "Heaven and the Supposed lack of Marriage" [Re: kland] #190899
09/19/19 03:40 PM
09/19/19 03:40 PM
J
James Peterson  Offline
NON-SDA
Active Member 2019

Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
Canada
Originally Posted by kland
Originally Posted by James Peterson

he said it before, duh

gen 2

"And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground ..." v7

"The Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden, and there He put the man whom He had formed." v8

"The tree of life was also in the midst of the garden ..." v9

Nope.

what are you saying nope to:

1. that humans and tigers were made of dust?
2. that death naturally befell anyone (humans and tigers) who did not eat of the tree of life?
3. that eternal life was ONLY available on eating of the tree of life?
4. that ONLY humans were offered eternal life and not tigers?

just saying nope is nike sloganeering. just saying nope does not help your case against an incontrovertible statement of fact. what happened to the tigers who were not to eat of the tree of life? they died in the garden of eden, as did the flowers and the leaves and the trees ...


Re: "Heaven and the Supposed lack of Marriage" [Re: dedication] #190900
09/19/19 04:43 PM
09/19/19 04:43 PM
APL  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Are you saying the Tree of Life is just a metaphor?

Also, are you saying the reproductive system only came about because of sin???


Originally Posted by dedication
Death came through sin,
NOT through creation.

Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned-

It's clear -- death came THROUGH sin.


I agree that nothing created has innate immortality or innate life -- only God has innate immortality, only God holds the amazing energy that is life. However God's creation did NOT die as long as the stewards of that creation (mankind) were in harmony with God. It was only when that harmony was broken that death and decay entered.
The only reason life even continued after rebellion against God entered the world, is because Christ stepped in with the amazing covenant of salvation.


It's a little like electrical connection--
When the house is fully connected with electricity the lights are bright and continuous
When the connection with electricity is cut the lights go out UNLESS
there is a back-up battery, which allows dimmer lighting for a limited time.
Before sin -- the perfect creation could live forever, their connection with the source of eternal life was in place.
After sin -- that connection was broken, but Christ stepped in as the "emergency" battery extending limited life, so the full plan of salvation could unfold.
Those who accept Christ have the assurance that the connection with the eternal life is once again established, and that full energy of life will be turned on at the second coming.


God knew that sin would enter the world with all its death and misery
The plan of salvation was already in place before the foundations of the world were laid. (see Rev. 13:8)
So it's not unreasonable to think that God created a reproducing system that COULD continue to exist even while death and decay did it's awful work.

Also -- it was through the reproduction system that Christ, the eternal Son of God, entered the human race fully human, to redeem the fallen race, so someday soon eternal life will become a living reality.

When sin is no more -- the reproduction system will no longer be needed --
Why worry about that?
Let's rejoice that salvation and eternal life is granted to all who will respond to Christ and follow Him.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: "Heaven and the Supposed lack of Marriage" [Re: APL] #190902
09/19/19 05:53 PM
09/19/19 05:53 PM
dedication  Online Content

Global Moderator
5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 5,814
Canada
Originally Posted by APL
Are you saying the Tree of Life is just a metaphor?

Also, are you saying the reproductive system only came about because of sin???



1. No, the trees in the garden were real -- but the tree in and of itself is not the source of life -- God is the source. God uses tangible things to lead to truth. Tigers and flowers didn't have to eat of the tree to sustain life -- but the STEWARDS of the earth (mankind who was given dominion over everything to care for it) had to eat to remind them life depended upon the Life Giver.


2. No, the reproductive system of all species, didn't come about because sin happened, it was part of every living thing on planet earth at creation before sin, but rather it was part of the plan to deal with sin before sin even happened because God knew this earth would be the show case of the battle between sin and redemption. Remember scripture says, the Lamb was slain from the foundation of THIS EARTH. --

God is prepared knowing what will come -- every detail is in place to go forward with the covenant agree upon before creation, so God created a reproducing system that COULD continue to exist even while death and decay did it's awful work.
Also -- it was through the reproduction system that Christ, the eternal Son of God, entered the human race fully human, to redeem the fallen race,

Re: "Heaven and the Supposed lack of Marriage" [Re: Davros] #190903
09/19/19 08:33 PM
09/19/19 08:33 PM
APL  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted by dedication
1. No, the trees in the garden were real -- but the tree in and of itself is not the source of life -- God is the source. God uses tangible things to lead to truth. Tigers and flowers didn't have to eat of the tree to sustain life -- but the STEWARDS of the earth (mankind who was given dominion over everything to care for it) had to eat to remind them life depended upon the Life Giver.
So eating from the Tree of Life was necessary, right?
 
Originally Posted by dedication
2. No, the reproductive system of all species, didn't come about because sin happened, it was part of every living thing on planet earth at creation before sin, but rather it was part of the plan to deal with sin before sin even happened because God knew this earth would be the show case of the battle between sin and redemption. Remember scripture says, the Lamb was slain from the foundation of THIS EARTH. --
The only reason we had a reproduction system was for the sin emergency? Do you have ANY inspired text to prove that, or is that just suppostion on your part? Was marriage only put in place in the change that sin MIGHT happen?


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: "Heaven and the Supposed lack of Marriage" [Re: Davros] #190904
09/19/19 09:23 PM
09/19/19 09:23 PM
dedication  Online Content

Global Moderator
5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 5,814
Canada
Sin was a not "chance" (not a maybe) God knew it would happen.
Sin was not a surprise "emergency" -- God knew by creating minds to think and chose, that sin would arise.
Before creating, the plan was laid out that would forever settle the question of God's perfect love and law, and create an eternal abhorrence for sin. In all eternity future people will give full alliance to God, NOT because they have to, but because they want to -- they love to!

Do you know of any other intelligent beings that get married? Angels? Seraphim? Cherubim?

Seems we do have scripture that says angels do NOT experience marriage? . Why not?
We also have scripture that says we will not marry or be given in marriage but will be like the angels.
Matt. 22:30 Mark 12:25

Re: "Heaven and the Supposed lack of Marriage" [Re: Davros] #190905
09/20/19 12:04 AM
09/20/19 12:04 AM
APL  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Sin started with Angel - no procreation.

Again - you make some interesting claim, but do not back them up with any inspired text. You claim procreation was because of sin. Again, do you have ANY inspired text or are you just conjecturing?

And what aboutt he Tree of Life - - was main required to eat from the tree in order to sustain life, or is that just a metaphor? After sin is gone, will man be required to eat from a read physical tree?


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: "Heaven and the Supposed lack of Marriage" [Re: James Peterson] #190906
09/20/19 06:43 AM
09/20/19 06:43 AM
K
kland  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2022

5500+ Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,224
Midland
Originally Posted by James Peterson
Originally Posted by kland
Originally Posted by James Peterson

he said it before, duh

gen 2

"And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground ..." v7

"The Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden, and there He put the man whom He had formed." v8

"The tree of life was also in the midst of the garden ..." v9

Nope.

what are you saying nope to:

1. that humans and tigers were made of dust?
2. that death naturally befell anyone (humans and tigers) who did not eat of the tree of life?
3. that eternal life was ONLY available on eating of the tree of life?
4. that ONLY humans were offered eternal life and not tigers?

just saying nope is nike sloganeering. just saying nope does not help your case against an incontrovertible statement of fact. what happened to the tigers who were not to eat of the tree of life? they died in the garden of eden, as did the flowers and the leaves and the trees ...

James, go back and read what I said nope to. It was not what you switched things with. That was dishonest. Dishonesty does not help your case. Making the Bible says what it does not does not help your case. There is no record that anything died in the garden of Eden prior to sin. That's what the conversation was about.

Re: "Heaven and the Supposed lack of Marriage" [Re: dedication] #190907
09/20/19 07:12 AM
09/20/19 07:12 AM
K
kland  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2022

5500+ Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,224
Midland
Originally Posted by dedication

2. No, the reproductive system of all species, didn't come about because sin happened, it was part of every living thing on planet earth at creation before sin, but rather it was part of the plan to deal with sin before sin even happened because God knew this earth would be the show case of the battle between sin and redemption. Remember scripture says, the Lamb was slain from the foundation of THIS EARTH. --

God is prepared knowing what will come -- every detail is in place to go forward with the covenant agree upon before creation, so God created a reproducing system that COULD continue to exist even while death and decay did it's awful work.
Also -- it was through the reproduction system that Christ, the eternal Son of God, entered the human race fully human, to redeem the fallen race,

Hmmm. Sounds like you are associating marriage with the reproduction system.
What about tigers with your reproduction system will no longer be needed? Did God create the maximum amount of tigers prior to sin? Will He recreate the maximum amount of tigers after the new earth? Or did God create a deficiency number of tigers prior to sin knowing sin would happen? What if Adam and Eve did not sin for awhile and the reproduction system remained in place for tigers?

Will there be no baby tigers in the new earth?!!!!!

Re: "Heaven and the Supposed lack of Marriage" [Re: Davros] #190914
09/21/19 02:39 AM
09/21/19 02:39 AM
dedication  Online Content

Global Moderator
5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 5,814
Canada
Associating marriage with the reproduction system --
Yes, -- because there is absolutely NOTHING in scripture or Spirit of Prophecy that says we won't know and love those we have known and loved here on earth. Those components of a relationship will continue, I fully expect to have my best friend and partner be my special friend and partner in eternity..
But marriage will not continue. (That's what scripture says)
So if love and companionship continues, what is it that will not continue?
Marriage will not continue (marriage here on earth is a unity cemented sexually, in which offspring are produced and raised)
.

People can speculate endlessly about tigers and such.

The thing is --
WE DON'T KNOW how things will work.
We only know the cycles of life we now have, which balance death and life.
and quite frankly they don't work in a world where nothing dies but everything keeps reproducing as they can now. It would be even a much greater rate, as now a lot of "new life" in the plant and animal world never lives long enough to mature and reproduce. But in eternity NOTHING dies.

The present systems of reproduction do NOT work in a world where nothing dies.

In Eden it worked because God only created a limited amount of everything, so there was lots of room for expansion in the year or so before sin. God knew sin would come quickly -- He knows the future.. Adam and Eve didn't even have time to reproduce while still in the garden, so I don't think they were there for very long, maybe a couple years at most.

But I'm sure God has systems that we know NOTHING about -- so it's rather futile to impose present systems on a deathless perfect eternity.

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