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Re: Bible Doctrines affected by Modern Versions [Re: Rick H] #194164
06/17/21 03:24 PM
06/17/21 03:24 PM
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kland  Offline
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Too wordy, didn't read it all.
I was looking for a concise answer. Maybe it isn't possible.

Quote
So, how do we know which 'reading' (KJB or NIV) or 'text' (GNT TR, MAJORITY, MASORETIC HEBREW, etc or that which originates with Alexandria and Rome, such as Vaticanus (B) and Sinaiticus (Aleph), Alexandrinus (A), etc) is the one God preserved?
Yes, the answer to that question I was looking for.

Quote
[6] The men of the King James translation committee were some of the most godly men in their age, and were the greatest of linguists and scholars. An indepth consideration may be begun here (by brother Sam Gipp) - https://ia803206.us.archive.org/19/items/24-hour-syllabus/24%20Hour%20SYLLABUS.pdf

Does this mean the men of the other version's translation committees were NOT some of the most godly men in their age, and were NOT the greatest of linguists and scholars?
Who determines which men were the most godly and greatest linguists and scholoars?

My question has not been answered. ...Unless implied that the KJV is the best because one "feels" it is. I need a concise answer and reason or I'll be of the same opinion still.

Re: Bible Doctrines affected by Modern Versions [Re: kland] #194165
06/17/21 06:35 PM
06/17/21 06:35 PM
Matthew 10vs8  Offline
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Originally Posted by kland
Too wordy, didn't read it all.
Yes, the indolence of this age is paramount of its character, being that the hour of power of darkness approaches its peak and the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of men. Many love to sleep, and fold their hands, putting them into their bosoms, so as not to bring them to their mouth again. The attention span of mankind is reduced to ashes by the blitzkrieg and third Reich of the devil in his onslaught of instant gratification, and food is swallowed without even chewing each morsel over and over and tasting its sweet particle flavours. I must wonder if the 'advice given' to God about Psalms 119; the book of Isaiah and Jeremiah are of the same character ("TL;DR"; "Wall-O-Text"; "CnP", &c), or to their 'pastors' about the length of the time in the pulpit. I know that I have personally received a direct letter, from a 'pastor' in whose church I gave a thorough study, about that very thing. The abuse of sister White's material to me on the subject in that letter was astounding and quite disheartening (even to think that that man is still sitting over a flock, it is a battle to hold back the flood of tears if thought upon too deeply. The congregation must surely be dead from so great a lack of fresh air, clean food and pure water). I was never invited back needless to say.

Originally Posted by kland
I was looking for a concise answer.
Each point was concise and exactly to the point being addressed. It is just that there are multiple points, with the preface and point 1 being the chief, foundational and over all most important among them (re-quoted at the end of this reply).

Originally Posted by kland
Maybe it isn't possible.
In some minds, all things are impossible, even with God. Yet, not in my mind.

Quote
[Matthew ten Verseight] So, how do we know which 'reading' (KJB or NIV) or 'text' (GNT TR, MAJORITY, MASORETIC HEBREW, etc or that which originates with Alexandria and Rome, such as Vaticanus (B) and Sinaiticus (Aleph), Alexandrinus (A), etc) is the one God preserved?

[kland] Yes, the answer to that question I was looking for.
It was given, in crystal clear and unmistakable characters and tones. To have missed so bright and shining a reply therein means that ones eyes and ears are hard of seeing, and dull of hearing and that which is seen and heard is only dimly comprehended and not understood for what it is, like witnessing men as trees walking, or as adults speaking to an infant, for movement and shape is seen, but known only as shadowy upon the eye, and speech is heard, but only experienced as a string of musical sounds that light upon the ear. Yet, those are merely symptoms of this age, which manifest through a stony heart. There is a cure for this. It requires the exchange of minds.

Quote
[Matthew ten Verseight] [6] The men of the King James translation committee were some of the most godly men in their age, and were the greatest of linguists and scholars. An indepth consideration may be begun here (by brother Sam Gipp) - https://ia803206.us.archive.org/19/items/24-hour-syllabus/24%20Hour%20SYLLABUS.pdf

[kland] Does this mean the men of the other version's translation committees were NOT some of the most godly men in their age, and were NOT the greatest of linguists and scholars?

Who determines which men were the most godly and greatest linguists and scholoars?
Some people I have noticed have questions to obtain answers, that they may learn to shrink their own world of ignorance (not knowing), and they bless the Light. Others ask questions simply to ask more questions, being the ever consummate Thomas, and yet all the while they do not like questions asked of them, for it would reveal their true position of doubt and uncertainty.

The Bible always has the answer, for the Bible (KJB) is the final authority in all matters of faith and practice. Isaiah 8:20, and "I recommend to you, dear reader, the Word of God as the rule of your faith and practice" (EW, 78.1); "The Bible, and the Bible alone, is to be our creed, the sole bond of union; all who bow to this Holy Word will be in harmony." (1SM 416.2); "The word of God is sufficient to enlighten the most beclouded mind and may be understood by those who have any desire to understand it" (2T 454.4; 5T 663.2)

The translation committees of today are indeed of a differing character than from those days of the Reformation for they have been filling up with devils, and this is historically demonstrable. The Bible says:

2Ti_3:13? But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

Mal 2:11? Judah hath dealt treacherously, and an abomination is committed in Israel and in Jerusalem; for Judah hath profaned the holiness of the LORD which he loved, and hath married the daughter of a strange god.?

Mal 2:12? The LORD will cut off the man that doeth this, the master and the scholar, out of the tabernacles of Jacob, and him that offereth an offering unto the LORD of hosts.?

Rev 18:2? And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.?

There are Jesuits (such as, Cardinal Carlo Maria Martini, SJ, and is said of him in the Greek New Testament 3rd edition, "... who has been a member of the Committee for both the Second and Third Editions undertook a thorough review of the text of the First Edition by carefully considering not only a number of suggestions made by specialists in the hold of New Testament studies, but also numerous recommendations resulting from the experience of the members of the Committee as they worked with the text of the First Edition. ..." - http://www.pawcreek.org/niv-catholic/ ) now on those committees, and they have ecumenical ties to the AntiChristos (the Vicarvis Christi of Papal Rome). They even own the colleges and universities from which the other 'scholars' come from. The mind, thinking and head, of the great whore are everywhere entwined in such translations today, for it has long been performing the miracle of multiplying 'bread', counterfeiting the great work of Christ Jesus. The leopard of Greecia is in all world academics today. Prophecy has told us this, if nothing else.

The second question was answered in the preface along with point 1. The Bible (KJB, the inspired word of God preserved into the English language) is the final authority in all matters of faith and practice. So, what does the Bible say is the judge of such matters?

Isa 8:20? To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Joh_12:48? He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Originally Posted by kland
My question has not been answered.
In truth, it has been answered in two ways, but those two ways conflict with one another and shall ever remain at war, until all rebellion is put down at the feet of Jesus Christ. One answer was given in my reply. The other answer already appeared in your heart before you asked the question, and by this is meant, you already had an answer of yourself, which disagrees with the answer in my reply. I do not mean anything harsh by this, but am pointing out where the result of your present came from. In other words, my answer did not "answer" (echo) what already existed within you.

Originally Posted by kland
...Unless implied that the KJV is the best because one "feels" it is.
There was no where implied, stated, believed or practiced in my reply that such a thing was ever true. It is denied directly to its face in the most explicit of terms. In other words, "God forbid!" Feeling and flesh have nothing to do with the faith that was expressed in the reply.

Originally Posted by kland
I need a concise answer and reason or I'll be of the same opinion still.
The answer, being truth, cannot change, and shall remain the same, even as Jesus Christ is the same, yesterday, today and forever, and changes not. There is the vast chasm that exists between ontological truth and ones opinion, and it cannot be crossed except through faith.

I shall provide once more, in charity, in long suffering and in the hopes of obtaining a sure ally in this long war that has been against the word of God since the beginning, the answer once more:

"God has preserved His words (Psalms 12:6-7; 1 Chronicles 16:15; Psalms 89:34, 105:8; Deuteronomy 8:3; Matthew 4:4, Luke 4:4; Matthew 5:18, 24:35; Mark 13:31; Luke 21:33; John 12:48) to this very present moment (now), and I have them in my hand by promise of God Himself, in the English of the KJB. ...

... "God already determined what is to be preserved (see references previously given). We do not decide. We may have evidence of God's preservation, but we do not use that evidence to decide what to preserve. It is not our prerogative to decide what is to be preserved, it belongs to God alone." ...

When compared in its own 'bones', 'bone with bone', line upon line'; the very foundational structure of the text, we see the pattern that emerges. ..."

In short, "Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." (Matthew 7:20)

Jesus is much better a condensing things than I am. smile

Last edited by Matthew 10vs8; 06/17/21 06:43 PM.
Re: Bible Doctrines affected by Modern Versions [Re: Rick H] #194169
06/19/21 11:13 PM
06/19/21 11:13 PM
Matthew 10vs8  Offline
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Let's now consider the NWT and/or NIV, etc. in Matthew 17:21, and show that it too follows Vaticanus and Sinaiticus, and it down plays what is actually noted in their own texts, the parallel of Mark 9:29:

Matthew 17:21 NWT - 21 ??

NWT Notation on Matthew 17:21 - "... So
me ancient manuscripts here read: ?However, this kind does not come out except by prayer and fasting.? (See study note on Mr 9:29.) But these words do not appear in the earliest and most reliable manuscripts and are evidently not part of the inspired Scriptures.?See App. A3. ..." - https://www.jw.org/en/library/bible/study-bible/books/matthew/17/#v40017021

Or see Matthew 17:21 NIV:

"... [21] [a]

[a] Matthew 17:21 Some manuscripts include here words similar to Mark 9:29.
..." - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+17%3A21&version=NIV

Again, that which is stated is a lie, not only referring to Mark 9:29, which is already shown to be in practically all mss, the NWT notation again false says, "these words do not appear in the earliest and most reliable manuscripts, and are evidently not part of the inspired Scriptures." and "Bible Gateway", says, "Some manuscripts include ..."

The words do not occur in the following corrupted texts:

Aleph* (Sinaiticus), B (Vaticanus), Theta; pc, e, ff1, sin, cur, pal, sa, bo-pt, Eth-rom,ms

Sinaiticus has been edited by a scribe and placed the text back in the text, so it is in Sinaiticus by later scribe.

So when the WTS/JW notation says, "Some ancient manuscripts here read ...", they are attempting to negate the vast extant literature which has the text in it. And when the notation at Bible Gateway says, "Some", they hide the fact that it is actually in nearly all available or extant mss:

"... Aleph-2
C, D, E, F, G, H, K, L, M, O, S, U, V, W, X, Y
Gamma, Delta, Pi, Sigma, Phi, Omega
Cursives: MAJORITY, fam 1,13
Old Latin: (a), aur, (b), (c), d, f, ff2, g1, l, (n), q, r1,2, Vulgate
Syriac: (Pes.hitta), (Harclean)
Coptic: Bohairic-pt, mae
Armenian: Ethiopic-ppl

Also extant in 047, 055, 0211 ..." - A Closer Look: Early Manuscripts & The A.V.; by Jack Moorman, page 68

Additionally:

"... PSEUDO-CLEMENT OF ROME, concerning Virginity (I 8:59)

ORIGEN, Matthew (I 10:479)

AMBROSE, Letters (III 10:459) ..." - Early Church Fathers And The Authorized Version, by Jack Moorman, page 40

Even Thomas Aquinas cites these on Matthew 17:21:

"... Raban.: But while He teaches the Apostles how the daemon ought to be cast out, He instructs all in615 regulation of life; that we may all know that all the heavier afflictions, whether of unclean spirits, or temptations of men, may be removed by fasts and prayers; and that the wrath also of the Lord may be appeased by this remedy alone; whence he adds, ?Howbeit this kind is not cast out but by prayer and fasting.?

Chrys.: And this He says not of lunatics in particular, but of the whole class of daemons. For fast endues with great wisdom, makes a man as an Angel from heaven, and beats down the unseen powers of evil. But there is need of prayer as even still more important. And who prays as he ought, and fasts, had need of little more, and so is not covetous, but ready to almsgiving. For he who fasts, is light and active, and prays wakefully, and quenches his evil lusts, makes God propitious, and humbles his proud stomach. And he who prays with his fasting, has two wings, lighter than the winds themselves. For he is not heavy and wandering in his prayers, (as is the case with many,) but his zeal is as the warmth of fire, and his constancy as the firmness of the earth. Such an one is most able to contend with daemons, for there is nothing more powerful than a man who prays properly.

But if your health be too weak for strict fast, yet is it not for prayer, and if you cannot fast, you can abstain from indulgences. And this is not a little, and not very different from fast.

Origen: If then we shall ever be required to be employed in the healing of those who are suffering any thing of this sort, we shall not adjure them, nor ask them questions, nor even speak, as though the unclean spirit could hear us, but by our fasting and our prayers drive away the evil spirits.

Gloss. ord.: Or; This class of daemons, that is the variety of carnal pleasures, is not overcome unless the spirit be strengthened by prayer, and the flesh enfeebled by fast.

Remig.: Or, fasting is here understood generally as abstinence not from food only, but from all carnal allurements, and sinful passions. In like manner prayer is to be understood in general as consisting in pious and good acts, concerning which the Apostle speaks, ?Pray without ceasing.? [1 Thess. 5:17] ..." - St. Thomas Aquinas: Catena Aurea - Gospel of Matthew - Christian Classics Ethereal Library - https://ccel.org/ccel/aquinas/catena1/catena1.ii.xvii.html

Further information on this text may be found here -

"... The textual evidence for the inclusion of this verse is massive and universal. It is found in the Majority of all Greek manuscripts including Sinaiticus correction, C, D, E, F, G, H, K, L, M, O, S, U, V, W, X, Y, Gamma, Delta, Pi, Sigma, Phi and Omega among the uncial or capital lettered manuscripts, and is in the Diatessaron, a compilation of the 4 gospels, which dates to around 160-175 A.D.

It is included in the Old Latin copies of a, aur, b, c, d, f, ff2, g1, l, n, q, r1. It is in the Latin Vulgate, the Syriac Peshitta, Harclean, some Coptic Boharic, the Armenian, some Ethiopic, the Georgian and the Slavonic ancient versions. It is quoted by such early church writers as Origen, Asterius, Hilary, Basil, Ambrose, Chrysostom, Jerome and Augustine.

It is omitted mainly by the Vaticanus manuscript and Theta.

Sinaiticus original omitted the verse, but then another scribe corrected Sinaiticus and put it back in the text. ..." https://brandplucked.webs.com/matthew1721.htm

See also:

"... Burgon (14) p 91, 206 states that every extant uncial except Aleph and B and every extant cursive except one contain the verse. Of the versions, the Old Latin, Syriac, Coptic, Armenian, Georgian, Ethiopic and Slavonic attest to the verse, with only the Curetonian Syriac and Sahidic omitting it. He cites additional ancient authorities including: 2nd Century: Tertullian; 3rd Century: Origen; 4th Century: Ambrose, Athanasius, Augustine, Basil, Chrysostom, Hilary, Juvencus; 8th Century: Clement of Syria, John Damascene.

Burgon also cites the Syriac version of the Canons of Eusebius and the readings of the entire Eastern Church on the l0th Sunday after Pentecost from the earliest period, in favour of the verse. Berry's Greek text supports this passage. ..." - http://ecclesia.org/truth/manuscript_evidence.html

Again, sister White already cites this verse, as found in the KJB on several occasions.

See also the notations already given on Mark 9:29 here - https://www.maritime-sda-online.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=194161#Post194161

Re: Bible Doctrines affected by Modern Versions [Re: Rick H] #194171
06/20/21 08:06 PM
06/20/21 08:06 PM
Matthew 10vs8  Offline
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Mat 18:11?KJB For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.?

Altering this, or removing it from this location, would deny that the Father sent the Son to save this one lost world, and it would also break up the connection about all of the other unfallen worlds above, and the unfallen beings on them, that exist to this day. It would also attempt to teach that the Pharisees and/or this world isn't really 'lost' or in need of salvation.

Let's now consider the NWT & NIV, etc. of Matthew 18:11, and show that it too follows Vaticanus and Sinaiticus:

Matthew 18:11 NWT - 11 ??

NWT Notation on Matthew 18:11 - "Matthew 18:11 Some manuscripts here include the words: ?For the Son of man came to save what was lost,? but these words do not appear in the earliest and most reliable manuscripts. A similar statement is part of the inspired text at Lu 19:10. Some are of the opinion that an early copyist borrowed the expression from Luke?s account.?See App. A3." - https://www.jw.org/en/library/bible/study-bible/books/matthew/18/#v40018011

Again, that which is stated is a lie, not only referring to Luke 19:10 which does have the words, the NWT notation again false says, "... these words do not appear in the earliest and most reliable manuscripts ..."

NIV Notation of Matthew 18:11 says,

"Matthew 18:11 [a]

[a] Matthew 18:11 Some manuscripts include here the words of Luke 19:10." - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2018:11&version=NIV

This is also a lie, since it says, "Some manuscripts" (see the evidence below) and it also boldly claims that Matthew 18:11 "include here the words of Luke 19:10" as if some copyists and/or plentitude of scribes just decided to 'slip' a portion of Luke 19:10 into Matthews account of the Gospel. Their evidence of this? Nuts.

The words do not occur in the following corrupted texts:

Aleph (Sinaiticus), B (Vaticanus), L*, Theta*; pc, fam 1,13, a, ff1, sin, pal, sa, bo-pt, mae

So when the WTS/JW and/or NIV, etc. notation says, "Some manuscripts here include the words ...", they are attempting to negate the vast extant literature which has the text in it:

"... D, E, F, G, H, I, K, L-c, M, N, S, U, V, W, X, Y
Theta-c, Sigma, Phi, Omega
Cursives: MAJORITY
Old Latin: a, aur, b, (c), d, f, ff2, g1, l, n, q, r1,2, Vulgate
Syriac: Pes.hitta, Curetonian, Harclean
Coptic: Bohairic-pt
Armenian, Ethiopic

Also extant in 0?, 047, 055, 0211, 0233?, 0248? ..." - A Closer Look: Early Manuscripts & The A.V.; by Jack Moorman, page 68;

Additionally:

"... TAITIAN, Diatessaron (I 10:85)

TERTULLIAN, On Modesty (I 4:83), "The Lord had come of course, to save that which 'had perished'." - Early Church Fathers And The Authorized Version, by Jack Moorman, page 40;

Also:

"... The entire verse is found in the Majority of all manuscripts, including D, E, F, G, H, I, K, M, N, S, U, V, W, X,Y, Sigma, Phi and Omega. It is the reading in the Old Latin copies a, aur, b, d, f, ff2, g1, l, n, q, r1 and r2.

It is also found in the Latin Vulgate, the Syriac Peshitta, Curetonian, Herclean, Coptic Boharic, Armenian, Georgian and Ethiopian ancient versions. It was also included in the Greek Diatessaron 160-175 A.D.

It is quoted by such early church writers as Hilary, Chrysostom, Chromatius and Augustine.

Westcott and Hort completely omitted the entire verse from their critical Greek text. And this is mainly because the verse is not found in Sinaiticus, or Vaticanus, and only a handful of other manuscripts. ...

... The entire verse is found in the following Bibles - the Anglo-Saxon Gospels circa 1000 A.D. - Mat 18:11 So?lice mannes sunu c?m to geh?lenne ?t forwear?, Wycliffe 1395, Tyndale 1534, Coverdale 1535, the Great Bible 1540, Matthew's Bible 1549, the Bishops? Bible 1568, the Douay-Rheims 1582, the Geneva Bible 1587, the Beza N.T. 1599, Mace N.T. 1729, Wesley's N.T. 1755, Haweis N.T. 1795, the Living Oracles 1835, The Revised N.T. 1862, The Emphatic Diaglott 1865, The Revised English Bible 1877, Darby 1898, Young's 1898, the Clarke N.T. 1913, Lamsa's Translation of the Syriac Peshitta 1933, The New Berkeley Version 1969, the Living Bible 1971, New Century Version, The Voice 2012, the Passion Translation 2017 and the NKJV 1982. ...

... Foreign Language Bibles that have the whole verse in their text are the Spanish Sagradas Escrituras 1569, Cipriano de Valera 1602, the Reina Valera 1909 - 2011, the Italian Diodati 1569, La Nuova Diodati 1991 and the Nuova Riveduta 2006, the French Martin 1744, Ostervald 1998 and French Louis Second 2007, Luther's German bible 1545 and the German Schlachter bible 2000, the Portuguese Almeida 1671 and 2009 and O Livro 2000, the Finnish Bible 1776 ..." - https://brandplucked.webs.com/matthew1811.htm

Also:

"... Burgon (14) p 92, states that the verse is attested by every known uncial except Aleph, B, L and every known cursive except three. Also bearing witness to the verse are the Old Latin, Peshitta, Curetonian and Philoxenian Syriac, Coptic, Armenian, Ethiopic, Georgian and Slavonic versions. Of the fathers citing the verse, Burgon lists: 2nd Century: Tertullian; 3rd Century: Origen; 4th Century: Ambrose, Augustine, Chrysostom, pope Damasus, Hilary, Jerome, Theodorus Heracl.

Burgon adds that the verse was read in the Universal Eastern Church on the day following Pentecost, from the beginning. Berry's Greek text also contains the verse. ..." - http://ecclesia.org/truth/manuscript_evidence.html

Sister White quotes Matthew 18:11 from the King James Bible as it reads in several places.

Last edited by Matthew 10vs8; 06/20/21 08:13 PM.
Re: Bible Doctrines affected by Modern Versions [Re: Matthew 10vs8] #194174
06/21/21 05:13 PM
06/21/21 05:13 PM
K
kland  Offline
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I was shown, Brother M, that you need a great work done for you before you can exert an influence in the church to correct their errors or bring them up. You do not possess that humbleness of mind that can reach the hearts of God?s people. You are exalted. You need to examine your motives and your actions to see if your eye is single to the glory of God. Neither Brother O nor you is exactly fitted to meet the wants of the youth and the church generally. You do not come right down in simplicity to understand the best manner to help them. It does not have the best influence for you and Brother O to leave your seats and take your position upon the platform in front of the people. When you occupy that position, you feel that you must say or do something in accordance with the position you have taken. Instead of getting up and speaking a few words to the point, you frequently make lengthy remarks, which really hurt the spirit of the meeting. Many feel relieved when you sit down. Were you in a country place where there were but few to improve the time, such lengthy remarks would be more appropriate. {2T 419.1}

The work of the Lord is a great work, and wise men are needed to engage in it. Men are wanted who can adapt themselves to the wants of the people. If you expect to help the people you must not take your position above them, but right down among them. This is Brother O?s great fault. He is too stiff. It is not natural for him to use simplicity. He does not reason from cause to effect. He will not win affection and love. He does not come right down to the understanding of the children and speak in a touching manner which will melt its way to the heart. He stands up and talks to the children in a wise way, but it does them no good. His remarks are generally lengthy and wearisome. Sometimes if but one fourth were said that is said, a much better impression would be left on the mind. {2T 419.2}


Originally Posted by Matthew 10vs8

I shall provide once more, in charity, in long suffering and in the hopes of obtaining a sure ally in this long war that has been against the word of God since the beginning, the answer once more:

"God has preserved His words (Psalms 12:6-7; 1 Chronicles 16:15; Psalms 89:34, 105:8; Deuteronomy 8:3; Matthew 4:4, Luke 4:4; Matthew 5:18, 24:35; Mark 13:31; Luke 21:33; John 12:48) to this very present moment (now), and I have them in my hand by promise of God Himself, in the English of the KJB. ...

... "God already determined what is to be preserved (see references previously given). We do not decide. We may have evidence of God's preservation, but we do not use that evidence to decide what to preserve. It is not our prerogative to decide what is to be preserved, it belongs to God alone." ...

When compared in its own 'bones', 'bone with bone', line upon line'; the very foundational structure of the text, we see the pattern that emerges. ..."

In short, "Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." (Matthew 7:20)

Jesus is much better a condensing things than I am. smile

But that in no way even begins to address my question.

Perhaps it may be useful for you to restate my question.

Re: Bible Doctrines affected by Modern Versions [Re: kland] #194175
06/21/21 06:23 PM
06/21/21 06:23 PM
Matthew 10vs8  Offline
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Ili Ili, AS
Originally Posted by kland
[i]I was shown, Brother M, that you need... Sometimes if but one fourth were said that is said, a much better impression would be left on the mind. {2T 419.2}
...
Sigh. The same old misuse of that quote (to which you will be held responsible for in the judgment). I have not even told you the half, nor counted myself above anyone. "One fourth"? You received a one page response, the chief and primary answer of which is found in the preface and first point of that page, of literally thousands of pages that could be given you, which in this period of time "such lengthy remarks would be more appropriate" (sic). As to the children, unless I am speaking to a six year old (are you?), I am speaking instead to an adult who is more than capable of reading and understanding a single page response, and even more so a single portion of that response given in preface and first point. Then, in charity, there was provided to you, a word from Jesus, in a single sentence if nothing else in the original page were to satisfy you. Oh, how easy it would be to simply post the SoP/ToJ in return to the misuse of it by yourself.

Ellen G White (James White, and multiple others) on many occasions would speak for upwards and beyond of 3 hours. How many pages do you think that is typed out? We do not have to guess, for we have some of those speeches.

Try quoting the whole context next time, otherwise I might think you purposefully misrepresenting the SoP/ToJ:

"... Those who instruct children should avoid tedious remarks. Short remarks and to the point will have a happy influence. If much is to be said, make up for briefness by frequency. A few words of interest now and then will be more beneficial than to have it all at once. Long speeches burden the small minds of children. Too much talk will lead them to loathe even spiritual instruction, just as overeating burdens the stomach and lessens the appetite, leading even to a loathing of food. The minds of the people may be glutted with too much speechifying. Labor for the church, but especially for the youth, should be line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, and there a little. Give minds time to digest the truths you feed them. Children must be drawn toward heaven, not rashly, but very gently.

Battle Creek, Michigan,

October 2, 1868. ..."

Did you see the context about "instruct[ing] children" throughout the whole? kland, why do you not see your own faulty position in both aspects, that of the OP and here? Where is the humility to admit your error, when pointed out to you by one who loves you?

I gave no "speechifying", and I was speaking to no 'child' (unless I am mistaken and you are a toddler to be bandied upon the knee?). I gave you the facts, point blank with evidence. When I speak to children, I give very short studies about the glory of God in nature all around them, with pictures that they might comprehend in things that they relate to and I share what others have shared with me likewise. You can see that here -

[1] https://archive.org/download/object...ns%20%E2%80%93%20Coconut%20Theology.pptx

[2] https://archive.org/download/object...Gardener%20-%20Children%27s%20Study.pptx

[3] https://archive.org/download/faith-...%20%28Children%27s%20Lesson%29%2001.pptx

[4] https://archive.org/download/made-w...%20Hands%20-%20Children%27s%20Study.pptx

[5] https://archive.org/download/blessing-childrens-study/Blessing%20-%20Children%27s%20Study.pptx

[6] https://archive.org/download/follow...Leader%20-%20Children%27s%20Program.pptx

[7] https://archive.org/download/the-last-days-with-jesus/The%20Last%20Days%20With%20Jesus.pptx

So, are you a child of such an age, that I need to reduce my response to less than a page, use single syllable words, and have coloured pictures for you? Otherwise, please refrain from misusing the SoP/ToJ as you have and return to the OP subject. Thank you. If you disagree with the subject, state the facts that we, who understand the matter thoroughly, may reply with the same and engage in thoughtful study together.

Last edited by Matthew 10vs8; 06/21/21 06:26 PM.
Re: Bible Doctrines affected by Modern Versions [Re: Rick H] #194176
06/21/21 09:14 PM
06/21/21 09:14 PM
Matthew 10vs8  Offline
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Matthew 23:14 KJB - Mat 23:14? Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.?

Let's now consider the NWT and NIV Matthew 23:14, and show that they too follow Vaticanus and Sinaiticus:

Matthew 23:14 NWT - 14 ??
NWT Notation on Matthew 23:14 - "A few manuscripts add the words: ?Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you devour widows? houses and for a pretense offer long prayers; on this account you will receive judgment more abundantly.? However, the earliest and most important manuscripts do not include this verse. Similar words, though, can be found at Mr 12:40 and Lu 20:47 as part of the inspired text.?See App. A3." - https://www.jw.org/en/library/bible/study-bible/books/matthew/23/#v40023014

Again, that which is stated is a lie, not only referring to Mark 12:40 and Luke 20:47 which does have the words, the NWT notation again falsely says, "... the earliest and most important manuscripts do not include this verse ..."

Matthew 23:14 NIV:

"14 [a]

[a] Matthew 23:14 Some manuscripts include here words similar to Mark 12:40 and Luke 20:47." - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2023%3A14&version=NIV


The words do not occur in the following corrupted texts:

Aleph (Sinaiticus), B (Vaticanus), D, L, Z, Theta, pc, fam 1, a, aur, d, e, ff1, g1,2, q, Vulgate, sin, pal-ms, sa, bo-pt, mae, Arm-zoh.

So when the WTS/JW notation says, "A few manuscripts add the words ...", they are attempting to negate the vast extant literature which has the text in it:

"... E, F, G, H, K, M, O, S, U, V, W, Y
Gamma, Delta-gr, Theta-c, Pi, Sigma, Omega
0104
Cursives: MAJORITY, (fam 13)
Old Latin: b, c, f, ff2, h, l, r1,2, Vulgate-pt
Syriac: Pes.hitta, Curetonian, Harclean, Palestinean-mss
Coptic: Bohairic-pt
Armenian-usc (apparently), Ethiopic

... Also extant in Phi, 047, 055, 0211, 0233?, 0257? ..." - A Closer Look: Early Manuscripts & The A.V.; by Jack Moorman, page 71

Moreover:

"... Patristic Evidentiary Support for the Genuineness of the above Passage - THE EARLY CHURCH FATHERS 38 VOLUME SET DIGITAL VERSION

170 A.D. Early Church Fathers - Ante-Nicene Fathers - Volume 9 - The Diatessaron of Tatian. - The Diatessaron. - Section 40.

[32] And in the course of his teaching he said unto them, Guard yourselves from the [33] scribes, who desire to walk in robes, and love salutation in the marketplaces, and sitting in the highest places of the synagogues, and at feasts in the highest parts of [34] the rooms: and they broaden their amulets, and lengthen the cords of their cloaks, [35] and love that they should be called by men, My master, and DEVOUR WIDOWS? HOUSES, BECAUSE OF THEIR PROLONGING THEIR PRAYERS; THESE THEN SHALL RECEIVE GREATER JUDGEMENT.

170 A.D. Early Church Fathers - Ante-Nicene Fathers - Volume 9 - The Diatessaron of Tatian. - The Diatessaron. - Section 40.

[42] ?WOE UNTO YOU, SCRIBES AND PHARISEES, HYPOCRITES! BECAUSE YE DEVOUR WIDOWS? HOUSES, BECAUSE OF YOUR PROLONGING YOUR PRAYERS; FOR THIS REASON YE SHALL RECEIVE GREATER JUDGMENT.?

347-407 A.D. Early Church Fathers - Nicene & Post-Nicene Fathers - First Series - Volume 10 - St. Chrysostom: Homilies on the Gospel of Saint Matthew - The Homilies of St. John Chrysostom. - Homily LXX - Matthew 23:14.

?WOE UNTO YOU, SCRIBES AND PHARISEES, HYPOCRITES! FOR YE DEVOUR WIDOWS? HOUSES, AND FOR A PRETENSE MAKE LONG PRAYERS; THEREFORE YE SHALL RECEIVE GREATER DAMNATION.?

347-407 A.D. Early Church Fathers - Nicene & Post-Nicene Fathers - First Series - Volume 11 - Saint Chrysostom: Homilies on the Acts of the Apostles and the Epistle to the Romans - The Homilies of St. John Chrysostom on Paul's Epistle to the Romans - Homily XXXII on Rom. 16:17, 18.

And Christ also blames them on this head: ?YE DEVOUR WIDOWS? HOUSES? (Matt 23:14), He says. And the Prophets accuse them of things of the kind. ..." - https://brandplucked.webs.com/matthew2314scripture.htm

Also:

"...Ruckman (2) p 102, (54) p 15, states that the omission can be traced to Origen, whose influence is responsible for the omission of the verse in the Alexandrian manuscripts. Berry's Greek text contains verse 14, although transposing it with verse 13. ..." - http://ecclesia.org/truth/manuscript_evidence.html

Sister White quotes Matthew 23:14 even in the Desire of Ages, as found in the "common" Bible - https://text.egwwritings.org/search...ort&hitsOnPage=20&sortBy=perbook

This demonstrates the error of the Roman lengthy 'prayers', and their greed for property, lands and titles. Even Wycliffe fought against such abuses.

Last edited by Matthew 10vs8; 06/21/21 09:16 PM.
Re: Bible Doctrines affected by Modern Versions [Re: Matthew 10vs8] #194177
06/22/21 10:14 AM
06/22/21 10:14 AM
K
kland  Offline
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Posts: 6,416
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Originally Posted by Matthew 10vs8

Try quoting the whole context next time, otherwise I might think you purposefully misrepresenting the SoP/ToJ:

"... Those who instruct children should avoid tedious remarks. ...
Battle Creek, Michigan,

October 2, 1868. ..."

My apologies, I searched and found many passages and selected which I thought was best. You could very well be correct. I read above the passage, but failed to read below it. However, I would need more information to understand that she was referring to Brother M. only instructing children and not additionally adults. The first part still appears to refer to non-children, but I could be wrong. Is it possible she referred to brother M. with adults and compared him to brother O. with children?

Quote
Did you see the context about "instruct[ing] children" throughout the whole?
No. Not throughout the whole, only brother O. and after.

Quote
Ellen G White (James White, and multiple others) on many occasions would speak for upwards and beyond of 3 hours. How many pages do you think that is typed out? We do not have to guess, for we have some of those speeches.
It is not just the quantity, but the extra words which add no benefit. One can say a lot and convey a lot, while one can say a lot and convey very little.

I take it you are familiar with many more quotes used against you so I need not search further. But ask yourself, do you think there may be a problem if more than one person is indicating an issue in your delivery?

Re: Bible Doctrines affected by Modern Versions [Re: Rick H] #194178
06/22/21 07:39 PM
06/22/21 07:39 PM
Matthew 10vs8  Offline
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Ili Ili, AS
Mar 7:16? KJB If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.?

Let's now consider the NWT and/or NIV of Mark 7:16, and show that it too follows Vaticanus and Sinaiticus:

Mark 7:16 NWT - 16 ??

NWT Notation on Mark 7:16 - "Some manuscripts here include the words ?If anyone has ears to listen, let him listen,? but they do not appear in important early manuscripts. Therefore, these words are evidently not part of the original text of Mark. Similar words, though, can be found at Mr 4:9, 23 as part of the inspired Scriptures. Some scholars are of the opinion that a copyist introduced these words here as a natural comment following verse 14 by drawing from the wording at Mr 4:9, 23.?See App. A3." - https://www.jw.org/en/library/bible/study-bible/books/mark/7/#v41007016

Again, that which is stated is a lie, not only referring to Mark 4:9,23 which does have the words, the NWT notation again falsely says, "... Some manuscripts ... but they do not appear in important early manuscripts ..."

"Important"? Who decided that Sinaiticus and Vaticanus were "important", or even "early" or even accurate or true?

The NIV notation on Mark 7:16:

" 16 [a]

[a] Mark 7:16 Some manuscripts include here the words of 4:23." - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+7%3A16&version=NIV

The "words of 4:23"? Are they kidding?

The words do not occur in the following corrupted/emended texts:

Aleph (Sinaiticus), B (Vaticanus), L, Delta*, 0274, 28, 2427

Yet, even in the Nestle/Aland footnotes, they specifically make mention of those texts that they know it to be in, though this is not all of the materials that it does exist in:

"... A, D, W
Theta
?1,13,
33
?
latt sy ..." - Mark 7, New English Translation (NET) | The Bible App or NETBible: Mark 7 - https://www.bible.com/bible/107/MRK.7.net

Peter Ruckman, cites:

"... Tatian's Diatessaron (180 AD) and the Gothic version of Ulfilas (320 AD) as the earliest authorities for this verse. Berry's Greek text supports this passage. ..." - Manuscript Evidence for Disputed Verses - http://ecclesia.org/truth/manuscript_evidence.html

Thomas Aquinas, cites in Catena Aurea:

"... Pseudo-Chrys., Vict. Ant. e Cat. in Marc.: Again He subjoins, ?If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.? For He had not clearly shewn them, what those things are which proceed out of a man, and defile a man; and on account of this saying, the Apostles thought that the foregoing discourse of the Lord implied some other deep thing. ..." - St. Thomas Aquinas: Catena Aurea - Gospel of Mark - Christian Classics Ethereal Library - https://ccel.org/ccel/aquinas/catena2/catena2.iii.vii.html

Removing this phrase at this location lessens the importance of the Holy Ghost's instruction, which is to be brought to the heart, and also seeks to negate the function of the parable (Matthew 15 in parallel) itself by reducing it to mere physical items, for Roman Catholics (as Apostate Protestantism also) take these words and reject the health laws of God (OT and NT), teaching that this passage gives license to eating anything.

Re: Bible Doctrines affected by Modern Versions [Re: kland] #194179
06/22/21 07:47 PM
06/22/21 07:47 PM
Matthew 10vs8  Offline
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Posts: 85
Ili Ili, AS
Originally Posted by kland

Quote
Did you see the context about "instruct[ing] children" throughout the whole?
No. Not throughout the whole, only brother O. and after.
The portion you gave:

"... Neither Brother O nor you is exactly fitted to meet the wants of the youth and the church generally. You do not come right down in simplicity to understand the best manner to help them. ...

... He [Brother O] does not come right down to the understanding of the children and speak in a touching manner which will melt its way to the heart. He stands up and talks to the children ..."

Brother O is also given as example to Brother M in the matter of "youth" (which is part of the "them", the rest being the "church generally"), "children".

I cannot help you. It is a case of 'willingly'. Feel free to participate in the discussion of the OP subject. I will leave you be for the time being.

Last edited by Matthew 10vs8; 06/22/21 07:50 PM.
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