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Re: What does the Sanctuary portray that is so hard?
[Re: Rick H]
#189555
05/25/19 10:54 AM
05/25/19 10:54 AM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Nadi, can you think of any other truths held by Jews in the OT or by Christians in the NT that are not explicitly explained (rather than implied)? This is an interesting aspect of God I have not looked into deeply. For example, the NT Jews were anticipating the arrival of Messiah to liberate them from Roman rule and to reestablish them as a Superpower. Where did they get these ideas? Also, what about all the prophecies NT Christians cite to prove Jesus is the Messiah? A natural reading of them in context leaves plenty of room for more native applications. Here's a link about some of these so-called Messianic Prophecies. And here is a link about how Jews apply them: Jewish Understanding of Isaiah 53.
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Re: What does the Sanctuary portray that is so hard?
[Re: Nadi]
#189560
05/25/19 10:29 PM
05/25/19 10:29 PM
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NON-SDA Active Member 2019
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
Canada
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So, in all fairness, the Jews can be forgiven for "not recognizing" Jesus as the Lamb of God, because the Torah (ie: Hebrew canon) DOES NOT EXPLAIN IT THAT WAY. That's an interesting position to take; but I like how you made reference to the TORAH instead of to the doctrines of the various sects that made up Judaism in Christ's day, much as we live in a time of a divided Christianity according to peculiar beliefs and interpretations of the Holy Scriptures. Because we are looking at things from a 21st-century Gentile perspective, we are not able to quickly discern things such as the meaning of the sanctuary and its rites. Animals being offered for sin was to counter the common practice of child sacrifice. The lesson is seen in the very beginning, so to speak, in the experience of Abraham when God asked him to sacrifice his beloved son, Isaac, but provided an animal substitute. "And Abraham called the name of the place, The-Lord-Will-Provide; as it is said to this day: In the Mount of the Lord it shall be provided.” Gen. 22:14 What was going to be provided? A sacrifice for sin, but the whole lesson is lost on modern ears because we do not practice such things. That is why we wonder how Abraham was praised for not withholding his "only" son; but nevertheless, God wanted him to know that though there was need indeed for a sacrifice for sin, that He (God) was going to make it Himself, i.e. His "lamb" that belonged to Him was going to be the sacrifice. The Jews understood this perfectly as John the Baptist would declare of Jesus Christ, "Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!" John 1:29. (The place of "the Mount of the Lord" was actually the location of the Temple.) Nowhere however is this more clearly spoken of than in the words of Isaiah, the prophet: see the whole remarkable chapter 53. Then there are the even more direct words of Zechariah 12 and 13. What happened to the Jews was a perfect storm of competing desires. Under Roman rule, they wanted to be free. The cultural pervasiveness of Rome pushed them towards their religion and made them value the outward show of piety and rite. Added to that was that Jesus came out of nowhere (he was not a priest, he was not of any school) ... and began to denounce such religious facade, challenging them as it were. And so, just as God said from ages past, He would pay the price for their sin: the sin of idolatry (i.e. rejection of Him). As John explains: He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. John 1:10-13 This is what the animal sacrifices in the sanctuary typified, but like how we celebrate Independence Day by not caring at all (for the sacrifices made for our country) except that it is a holiday, so the Jews, in time, lost all spiritual discernment. ///
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Re: What does the Sanctuary portray that is so hard?
[Re: Rick H]
#189562
05/26/19 12:08 AM
05/26/19 12:08 AM
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Global Moderator Supporting Member 2022
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,410
Canada
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So, in all fairness, the Jews can be forgiven for "not recognizing" Jesus as the Lamb of God, because the Torah (ie: Hebrew canon) DOES NOT EXPLAIN IT THAT WAY. No, there is enough information in the Old Testament that they could have recognized Jesus for Who He was. And some did!!! The concern is -- is truth still rejected because scripture "does not explain it that way" == the way some demand to see it, in words they think it should be stated, or they will not believe?
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Re: What does the Sanctuary portray that is so hard?
[Re: Rick H]
#189566
05/26/19 08:47 AM
05/26/19 08:47 AM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Does Isaiah 53 (and similar passages in the OT) clearly, unequivocally say the Son of Man will pay our sin debt of death on the Cross so God can justifiably pardon us and grant us eternal life in the New Earth? Or, is it a dual application pronouncement prohecy that first applies to the nation of Israel and then also applies to the Messiah?
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Re: What does the Sanctuary portray that is so hard?
[Re: dedication]
#189568
05/26/19 09:15 AM
05/26/19 09:15 AM
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NON-SDA Active Member 2020
Full Member
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Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 288
Canada
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So, in all fairness, the Jews can be forgiven for "not recognizing" Jesus as the Lamb of God, because the Torah (ie: Hebrew canon) DOES NOT EXPLAIN IT THAT WAY. No, there is enough information in the Old Testament that they could have recognized Jesus for Who He was. And some did!!! Another adamant assertion with zero evidence. Post Scriptural references that show this. The concern is -- is truth still rejected because scripture "does not explain it that way" Um...YES. If Scripture "does not explain it that way" then it's.....NOT TRUTH. This is fundamental to the study of Scripture. Understand WHAT SCRIPTURE SAYS instead of WHAT YOU WANT IT TO SAY. (However, not surprising from one who's approach to Scripture is "wishful seeing.") Just because you can't see it in scripture, doesn't mean its not there, quite plain for those who wish to see. == the way some demand to see it, in words they think it should be stated, or they will not believe?
"Our vision is often more obstructed by what we think we know than by our lack of knowledge." K. Stendahl
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Re: What does the Sanctuary portray that is so hard?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#189570
05/26/19 12:40 PM
05/26/19 12:40 PM
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NON-SDA Active Member 2020
Full Member
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Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 288
Canada
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Nadi, can you think of any other truths held by Jews in the OT or by Christians in the NT that are not explicitly explained (rather than implied)? This is an interesting aspect of God I have not looked into deeply. For example, the NT Jews were anticipating the arrival of Messiah to liberate them from Roman rule and to reestablish them as a Superpower. Where did they get these ideas? Also, what about all the prophecies NT Christians cite to prove Jesus is the Messiah? A natural reading of them in context leaves plenty of room for more native applications. Here's a link about some of these so-called Messianic Prophecies. And here is a link about how Jews apply them: Jewish Understanding of Isaiah 53. Mountain Man you have hit upon a very interesting aspect of the Judeo/Christian spectrum--that of traditional interpretations and understandings as opposed to the actual/original meanings. Is our understanding of a passage the same as that of the original hearers? Should it be? How much of Scripture was "written into the text," especially in the New Testament? Are the early disciples guilty of "reverse engineering" Jesus into the role of Messiah? All very valid questions.
"Our vision is often more obstructed by what we think we know than by our lack of knowledge." K. Stendahl
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Re: What does the Sanctuary portray that is so hard?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#189571
05/26/19 01:02 PM
05/26/19 01:02 PM
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NON-SDA Active Member 2020
Full Member
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Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 288
Canada
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Does Isaiah 53 (and similar passages in the OT) clearly, unequivocally say the Son of Man will pay our sin debt of death on the Cross so God can justifiably pardon us and grant us eternal life in the New Earth? Or, is it a dual application pronouncement prohecy that first applies to the nation of Israel and then also applies to the Messiah? Yes, I believe it (they) does. However, here's the rub: No Biblical authors explicitly OR implicitly links the Messiah motif to the sanctuary motif. IOW, no Bible author either tells us or implies that he got his "Messiah" understanding from studying the sanctuary. To the OT Jews, there is the Messiah stream, and there is the Sanctuary stream. And the two are not the same nor related. The "Sanctuary" stream is how God wants them to deal with sin. The "Messiah" stream is God's promise to send a savior (Messiah, Son of David, Son of Man, etc.) to restore Israel. It MUST be kept in mind that there was no national/cultural/spiritual/religious unity on the meaning of these terms. IOW, not all Jews understood them in the same sense, or looked for the same fulfilment of the OT Scripture and prophecies. So just because SOME Jews saw a particular fulfilment (such as the sanctuary/Christ understanding) does NOT mean that everyone understood it that way. Much of the misunderstanding we have today, and the judgement of the Jews by certain people, is a result of the projection of our current understandings back onto the Jews, and expecting that they should have understood things then as we understand them now.
"Our vision is often more obstructed by what we think we know than by our lack of knowledge." K. Stendahl
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Re: What does the Sanctuary portray that is so hard?
[Re: Rick H]
#189574
05/26/19 02:32 PM
05/26/19 02:32 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Nadi, did God leave the OT Jews in the dark as to the mission and message of Messiah? If so, why? If not, where in the OT does it say so? Also, why do you believe the so-called Messianic prophecies like Isaiah 53 and others apply to Jesus?
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Re: What does the Sanctuary portray that is so hard?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#189578
05/26/19 04:31 PM
05/26/19 04:31 PM
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You are like a blind old man . . . When you are ready to study without insults please let me know. And insults like that, if he isn't careful, will earn him a one month ban.
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Re: What does the Sanctuary portray that is so hard?
[Re: dedication]
#192011
03/09/20 10:13 AM
03/09/20 10:13 AM
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OP
Group: Admin Team
3000+ Member
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,090
Florida, USA
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So, in all fairness, the Jews can be forgiven for "not recognizing" Jesus as the Lamb of God, because the Torah (ie: Hebrew canon) DOES NOT EXPLAIN IT THAT WAY. No, there is enough information in the Old Testament that they could have recognized Jesus for Who He was. And some did!!! The concern is -- is truth still rejected because scripture "does not explain it that way" == the way some demand to see it, in words they think it should be stated, or they will not believe? Which seems to be happening today as we see with many Christians.
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