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Re: What has been taken away from us, in this pandemic..
[Re: kland]
#192554
06/15/20 02:01 PM
06/15/20 02:01 PM
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But it seems conference has come in and turned that on its head, and we now find ourselves in a 'Red Sea moment' waiting for God to show us the way.
Do they have the authority to do that? I find they don't really care when a struggling church is trying to do something, just whatever you want to do. Kind of independent. So now, do they have authority or not? The Church Board is the governing body for the individual church, the Conference, Union, GC is how the leadership is organized. Now who has the last say, is the question... Anyone want to take a crack at it from church sources or SOP..
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Re: What has been taken away from us, in this pandemic..
[Re: Rick H]
#192555
06/15/20 06:05 PM
06/15/20 06:05 PM
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Anyone want to take a crack at it from church sources or SOP.. I'd be delighted to share what I have found. Maybe others have found more. Does Ellen White say anything about this? Yes. She addresses the principle of the matter. The authority she references is that of Heaven, not any particular organizational structure on earth. God's Word is the reference point. The Lord has shown me that great interest should be taken by Sabbathkeepers to keep up their meetings and make them interesting. There is great necessity of more interest and energy being manifested in this direction. All should have something to say for the Lord, for by so doing they will be blest. A book of remembrance is written of those who do not forsake the assembling of themselves together, but speak often one to another. The remnant are to overcome by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony. Some expect to overcome alone by the blood of the Lamb, without making any special effort of their own. I saw that God has been merciful in giving us the power of speech. He has given us a tongue, and we are accountable to Him for its use. We should glorify God with our mouth, speaking in honor of the truth and of His unbounded mercy, and overcome by the word of our testimony through the blood of the Lamb. {EW 114.2} "A book of remembrance is written of those who do not forsake the assembling of themselves together...." I want to be in that book, don't you? Some, fearing they will suffer loss of earthly treasure, neglect prayer and the assembling of themselves together for the worship of God, that they may have more time to devote to their farms or their business. They show by their works which world they place the highest estimate upon. They sacrifice religious privileges, which are essential to their spiritual advancement, for the things of this life and fail to obtain a knowledge of the divine will. They come short of perfecting Christian character and do not meet the measurement of God. They make their temporal, worldly interests first, and rob God of the time which they should devote to His service. Such persons God marks, and they will receive a curse rather than a blessing. . . . {2T 654.1} Anyone here wish to have a curse rather than a blessing? I'm not interested in that curse--which is why I'm so glad to have found a group of people who meet thrice weekly as if no such thing as COVID and governmental or church restrictions existed. If the higher-ups (I'd say "conference" but we don't have a conference here) discipline the church pastor over this, they will face God's ire and I would not like to be in their shoes, either now or on judgment day. The example of Christ in linking Himself with the interests of humanity should be followed by all who preach His word, and by all who have received the gospel of His grace. We are not to renounce social communion. We should not seclude ourselves from others. In order to reach all classes, we must meet them where they are. They will seldom seek us of their own accord. Not alone from the pulpit are the hearts of men touched by divine truth. There is another field of labor, humbler, it may be, but fully as promising. It is found in the home of the lowly, and in the mansion of the great; at the hospitable board, and in gatherings for innocent social enjoyment. {DA 152.2} Not only should we not forsake the assembling of ourselves together, but also we should not forsake gatherings with other people--with the goal of touching their hearts with divine truth. We must not merely withdraw into ourselves, nor seclude ourselves from others. And we need each other . . . The Need for Fellowship.--The deprivation felt when people absent themselves from the gatherings of the people of God is not small. As children of God we are to place ourselves in every gathering of God, where His people are commissioned to be present, and give the word of life. All need light and all the help that can be obtained in order that when they have heard and received the precious messages from heaven, through God's appointed agents, they may be prepared to bestow upon others the light given.--Lt 117, 1896. {2MCP 624.1} We need fellowship. It is not merely a luxury item: it is a need. Ellen White teaches us that "we are to place ourselves in every gathering of God, where His people are commissioned to be present." God's commission is His command. To go against Jesus' commission should not be taken lightly. It involves eternal risks--risks far, far more fearsome than any which might be seen in the physical pestilences we encounter in the world today. I'd rather risk the ire of the conference than that of God. What do you think? In the church his [a father's] voice is not silent. He has words of gratitude and encouragement to utter; for he is a growing Christian, with a fresh experience every day. He is a helpful, active worker in the church, laboring for the glory of God and the salvation of his fellow men. He would feel condemned and guilty before God were he to neglect to attend public worship, thus failing to improve the privileges that would enable him to do better and more effective service in the cause of truth. {5T 425.1} Not one of the workers in the office is excused from being a worker in the church of God. Those who are capable of engaging in labor in the office are capable of being workers in the church. There is missionary work to be done everywhere. Everyone in the office who professes the name of Christ should be put into regular, systematic labor of some kind in the church. Every man and woman is required of God to do something for the advancement of His cause. Every institution like the publishing house on the Pacific Coast should have rules and discipline, requiring those who work in the office to be earnest workers in the church. If there is a neglect in attending evening meetings or the meetings on the Sabbath, it should be inquired into, and if valid reasons are not given, they should be urged or admonished to attend these meetings, so essential to their spiritual strength. Without this spiritual strength the influence of these laborers will not be good, and the religious tone in the office will not be correct. Those who profess to be engaged in the sacred work of God should not excuse the neglect of the service of God because of their own work. Such work can be laid aside much better than the service of God, for His strength and grace are every day essential for the performance of daily duties, and the opportunities and privileges for spiritual strength can not be slighted or neglected without backsliding from God. Backsliders are not wanted to engage in the sacred work of God. {PH149 32.2} The implication there is that the workers in God's institutions who are not attending worship services should be let go. "Backsliders are not wanted to engage in the sacred work of God." To prevent the assembly of God's people was one of the things fanaticism brought into the church in Ellen White's day. She addressed it in the following words: As I returned to Portland, there were evidences of the desolating effects of fanaticism. Some seemed to think that religion consisted in great excitement and noise. They would talk in a manner that would irritate unbelievers, and have an influence to arouse hatred against themselves and the doctrines they taught. Then they would rejoice that they suffered persecution. Unbelievers could see no consistency in such a course. The brethren in some places were prevented from assembling for meetings. The innocent suffered with the guilty. {CET 73.1}
I carried a sad and heavy heart much of the time. It seemed so cruel that the cause of Christ should be injured by the course of these injudicious men. They were not only ruining their own souls, but placing upon the cause a stigma not easily removed. And Satan loved to have it so. It suited him well to see the truth handled by unsanctified men; to have it mixed with error, and then all together trampled in the dust. He looked with triumph upon the confused, scattered state of God's children. {CET 73.2}
We trembled for the churches that were to be subjected to this spirit of fanaticism. My heart ached for God's people. Must they be deceived and led away by this false enthusiasm? I faithfully pronounced the warnings given me of the Lord; but they seemed to have little effect, except to make these persons of extreme views jealous of me. {CET 73.3} We must look to Jesus in order to live. How was it with the children of Israel in the wilderness?--They were protected on every side; the pillar of cloud by day and of fire by night was over them; but they did not appreciate the blessings they enjoyed. They murmured and complained, and God finally permitted the serpents to bite them, that they might be brought to a realizing sense of his care and protection. It was the power of God that had before kept the venomous serpents of the wilderness from stinging them. When the serpents were permitted to bite them, the command came to Moses to lift up a brazen serpent on a pole, and to tell the people that if they would look upon it, they should live. Suppose that one had said, "O, my wounds are too grievous. I am so full of fever and suffering that I cannot raise my eyes. Wait till I am a little better." Could he get better without following the directions?--No, he would only grow worse and worse, and die. The only remedy was to fasten his eyes on the brazen serpent. The instruction was, "Look and live," and every soul who did this was healed. {RH, February 26, 1889 par. 9}
"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up." And every sin-sick soul, bitten and deceived by the serpent, may "look and live." How many delay to look! They think they must make themselves a little better before they can come to Jesus. But we cannot do this. Our only hope is to look and live. We have abundant reason to praise God that we have not perished by the way, and that he is so ready now to heal us of all our wounds. "Wash you, make you clean." The fountain has been provided. May God help you to "look and live!" {RH, February 26, 1889 par. 10} We are told what would happen if the sick ones said: [ "...I am so full of fever and suffering that I cannot raise my eyes. Wait till I am a little better." Could he get better without following the directions?--No, he would only grow worse and worse, and die." ] Repeatedly, Mrs. White addresses those who would refrain from attending church. Your neglect to attend the public worship of God is a serious error. The privileges of divine service will be as beneficial to you as to others and are fully as essential. You may be unable to avail yourself of these privileges as often as do many others. You will frequently be called, upon the Sabbath, to visit the sick, and may be obliged to make it a day of exhausting labor. Such labor to relieve the suffering was pronounced by our Saviour a work of mercy and no violation of the Sabbath. But when you regularly devote your Sabbaths to writing or labor, making no special change, you harm your own soul, give to others an example that is not worthy of imitation, and do not honor God. {CH 368.2}
You have failed to see the real importance, not only of attending religious meetings, but also of bearing testimony for Christ and the truth. If you do not obtain spiritual strength by the faithful performance of every Christian duty, thus coming into a closer and more sacred relation to your Redeemer, you will become weak in moral power. {CH 368.3}
While the above was a testimony written to a particular physician, Mrs. White later expanded the principle to include anyone who avoided church attendance. Some have made a serious mistake in neglecting to attend the public worship of God. The privileges of divine service will be as beneficial to them as to others, and are fully as essential. They may be unable to avail themselves of these privileges as often as do many others. Physicians will frequently be called upon the Sabbath to visit the sick and may be obliged to make it a day of exhausting labor. Such labor to relieve the suffering was pronounced by our Saviour a work of mercy and no violation of the Sabbath. But those who regularly devote their Sabbaths to writing or labor, making no special change, harm their own souls, give to others an example that is not worthy of imitation, and do not honor God. {4T 539.3} We are instructed to "Press together." "Press Together"
The Lord's work is one, and His people are to be one. He has not directed that any one feature of the message should be carried on independently or become all-absorbing. In all His labors He united the medical missionary work with the ministry of the word. He sent out the twelve apostles, and afterward the seventy, to preach the gospel to the people, and He gave them power also to heal the sick and to cast out devils in His name. Thus should the Lord's messengers enter His work today. Today the message comes to us: "As My Father hath sent Me, even so send I you. And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost." John 20:21, 22. {6T 292.1}
Satan will invent every possible scheme to separate those whom God is seeking to make one. But we must not be misled by his devices. If the medical missionary work is carried on as a part of the gospel, worldlings will see the good that is being done; they will be convicted of its genuineness and will give it their support. {6T 292.2}
We are nearing the end of this earth's history, and God calls upon all to lift the standard bearing the inscription: "Here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus." He calls upon His people to work in perfect harmony. He calls upon those engaged in our medical work to unite with the ministry; He calls upon the ministry to co-operate with the medical missionary workers; and He calls upon the church to take up their appointed duty, holding up the standard of true reform in their own territory, leaving the trained and experienced workers to press on into new fields. No word is to be spoken to discourage any, for this grieves the heart of Christ and greatly pleases the adversary. All need to be baptized with the Holy Spirit; all should refrain from censuring and disparaging remarks, and draw near to Christ, that they may appreciate the heavy responsibilities which the co-workers with Him are carrying. "Press together; press together," are the words of our divine Instructor. Unity is strength; disunion is weakness and defeat. {6T 292.3} And what is God's commandment relative to our assembly for worship? Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. (Hebrews 10:25) Here's a section from 2MCP that seems applicable: Remedy for Social Evils.--To this wise provision for the spiritual needs of his subjects [the appointment of teaching priests], Jehoshaphat owed much of his prosperity as a ruler. In obedience to God's law there is great gain. In conformity to the divine requirements there is a transforming power that brings peace and goodwill among men. If the teachings of God's Word were made the controlling influence in the life of every man and woman, if mind and heart were brought under its restraining power, the evils that now exist in national and in social life would find no place. From every home would go forth an influence that would make men and women strong in spiritual insight and in moral power, and thus nations and individuals would be placed on vantage ground.--PK 192 (1917). {2MCP 627.1}
Proper Cultivation of Social Relationships Brings Happiness.--With those who lived at a distance from the tabernacle, more than a month of every year must have been occupied in attendance upon the annual feasts. This example of devotion to God should emphasize the importance of religious worship and the necessity of subordinating our selfish, worldly interests to those that are spiritual and eternal. {2MCP 627.2}
We sustain a loss when we neglect the privilege of associating together to strengthen and encourage one another in the service of God. The truths of His Word lose their vividness and importance in our minds. Our hearts cease to be enlightened and aroused by the sanctifying influence, and we decline in spirituality. In our intercourse as Christians we lose much by lack of sympathy with one another. He who shuts himself up to himself is not filling the position that God designed he should. We are all children of one Father, dependent upon one another for happiness. The claims of God and of humanity are upon us. It is the proper cultivation of the social elements of our nature that brings us into sympathy with our brethren and affords us happiness in our efforts to bless others.--PP 541 (1890). {2MCP 627.3}
Not to Be Governed by Human Standards.--I am constantly presenting the need of every man doing his best as a Christian, of training himself to realize the growth, the expansion of mind, the nobility of character, which it is possible for each to have. In all that we do we are to sustain a Christlike relation to one another. We are to use every spiritual force for the carrying out of wise plans in earnest action. The gifts of God are to be used for the saving of souls. Our relations to one another are not to be governed by human standards but by divine love, the love expressed in the gift of God to our world.--CT 256 (1913). {2MCP 628.1} Religious meetings should not be neglected. . . . Eternal interests should be made the first consideration, and every influence which would help in the divine life should be welcomed. Men to whom the Lord has given the charge of business matters connected with His cause should be spiritually minded. They should not neglect to attend religious meetings nor consider it a task to speak often one to another of their religious life and experience. God will listen to their testimonies; they will be recorded in His book of remembrance; and He will favor His faithful ones and "will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him." {5T 408.2} There are more, but this should suffice to set forward the principle of the matter. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: What has been taken away from us, in this pandemic..
[Re: Rick H]
#192557
06/15/20 07:35 PM
06/15/20 07:35 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2024
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,425
Midland
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But it seems conference has come in and turned that on its head, and we now find ourselves in a 'Red Sea moment' waiting for God to show us the way.
Do they have the authority to do that? I find they don't really care when a struggling church is trying to do something, just whatever you want to do. Kind of independent. So now, do they have authority or not? The Church Board is the governing body for the individual church, the Conference, Union, GC is how the leadership is organized. Now who has the last say, is the question... Anyone want to take a crack at it from church sources or SOP.. In addition to what Green said, what if the conference said everyone must wear pink socks. What I'm asking is, do they have that authority? Whether pink socks or whether churches can meet.
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Re: What has been taken away from us, in this pandemic..
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#192593
06/20/20 12:29 AM
06/20/20 12:29 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2021
Regular Member
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Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 94
Florida. USA
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It's just for a few months. I don't think your quotes are to be used when we have a pandemic.
Your "Eternal interests.." does not mean attending church in times of pestilence. Can you wait until this thing is under wraps or the way gets clear? Do you pop out to the car on Sabbath if there is a tornado warning in your area? As much as you guys IMO misconstrue things, I'm gonna do one: Could this be the 1st part of the shaking? Maybe folks will get tired of waiting to go to church, and put God on the backburner.
. I don't know what you guys are doing on Sabbath, but like I said, somewhere, have you asked the Lord if He could make possible a small study group for awhile?
Last edited by Theophilus; 06/20/20 12:30 AM.
I am not worthy of the least of all the mercies, and of all the truth, which Thou hast shewed unto Thy servant;...
Gen 32:10
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Re: What has been taken away from us, in this pandemic..
[Re: Rick H]
#192610
06/20/20 05:09 PM
06/20/20 05:09 PM
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One good thing coming from this is that we are using the technology in a way that we didn't use it previously that is bringing us together in ways that never happened previously.
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Re: What has been taken away from us, in this pandemic..
[Re: Rick H]
#192613
06/20/20 07:52 PM
06/20/20 07:52 PM
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Global Moderator
Supporting Member 2022
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,430
Canada
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I hope it's just for a few months.
There for awhile there was the idea that churches remain closed till a vaccination be produced and then only those vaccinated could attend. I hope that doesn't become law!
Later I heard that people aged 65 and over would not be allowed to attend, even once churches were allowed to open if they abide by a list of rules.
That would exclude half the members -- so for many churches reopening was postponed.
Basically I do harbor a concern as to whether I will be able to attend church again.
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Re: What has been taken away from us, in this pandemic..
[Re: Rick H]
#192629
06/22/20 01:04 PM
06/22/20 01:04 PM
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ID check...
Sorry....You're too old for admittance.
Whether coronavirus can be made to last or not, they will create a new scare to take over.
What's been taken away? Security. Trust. Freedom.
Only decades could possibly erase those scars. But there's too many stakeholders to let it pass.
They've made it to suspect your neighbor may infect you.
They demonstrated they can control people's minds and fears.
They will implement tracking (for the public's good) that will not go away.
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Re: What has been taken away from us, in this pandemic..
[Re: Rick H]
#192661
06/27/20 02:41 PM
06/27/20 02:41 PM
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Global Moderator
Supporting Member 2022
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Social Distancing --
Why is it called SOCIAL distancing? Think about it.
It's not called "keeping a healthy physical distance" to keep people from breathing or coughing on you, NO it's called SOCIAL distancing.
Social distancing has meanings and implications far greater than simply not getting too close to someone physically to avoid them breathing in your face.
Social distancing is psychological.
It is meant to create SOCIAL disconnect.
It aims to disconnect relationships of human beings from each other. It is creating a psychological and grotesque social experiment that wrecks havoc on the human spirit. Locking the elderly away from their families, friends from friends, family from family.
Seeking to turn the population into technological identities, each isolated in their own little cell, depriving them of actual, in person human touch. All communication placed in a trackable, recordable environment --
A video was circulated showing how covid supposedly spread.
Basically in the video everything with even the briefest of contact with a supposed carrier instantly would light up as being contaminated, and within minutes everyone was lighted up as being covid positive.
What really struck me was that EVERY "contact" in that video, was a scene of human caring -- a gesture of concern, a gift of flowers, making someone more comfortable, a sympathetic touch -- simply all "in person" giving and caring was being portrayed as deadly. STOP giving and caring???? That was message. A total SOCIAL disconnect promoted as the "unselfish" way to live ???
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