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Ellen White on Bible Versions #193439
01/15/21 04:12 PM
01/15/21 04:12 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline OP
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The Orient
The topic of Bible versions has frequently generated much discussion among Adventists, and this goes back over 100 years. Here on this forum, multiple topics have been opened on this subject, including these:

King James Bible vs newer versions

Bible Doctrines affected by Modern Versions

Why the King James Version is Superior...

However, while arguments about what Ellen White may have opined on the topic have been sought for, and her usage of multiple versions discussed--usually as a point in favor of new revisions, very little has been found to support what she actually taught on this matter.

Some may feel that, if she was silent on the topic, it must not be important. Some may feel her use of versions other than the King James Version (KJV) is a broad endorsement to newer translations.

BUT THE TRUTH IS SHOCKING.

After you see what she REALLY taught on this topic, you may experience a little "righteous indignation," as I have, over why the Ellen White Estate seems to have kept these statements tucked away for so long, finally releasing them with the trove of online material that now anyone can access. Even now, there is no fanfare to these statements, and if one knows not where to look, they will likely remain in the recesses of obscurity.

It is clear that souls will be lost over this issue, and the lack of clarity on it, dating back to the Bible Conference of 1919, will have everlasting results.

If only I had had this information many years ago...but it only came to my attention not long before the COVID crisis began. Until a friend forwarded me a partial set of these statements, I had blindly assumed, as have many others, that Mrs. White never wrote on the issue. My posts in the archives of the links listed above show that I was ignorant of these statements. I have since found more on my own, and perhaps I have not exhausted them yet.

I trust Mrs. White. Even if she were to write against my opinion, I would desire that my opinion be changed, for the truth is the truth. As there are a number of statements on the matter, I will let the weight of them soak in individually, one at a time. Feel free to comment or discuss the statements as they appear here.

Again, if only I had had this information back in 2013 when we were discussing "Why the King James Version is Superior," and similar topics!

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Ellen White on Bible Versions [Re: Green Cochoa] #193440
01/15/21 04:23 PM
01/15/21 04:23 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline OP
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Here's one statement. Expect more, and stronger statements to come.

Originally Posted by Ellen White
Do you desire to destroy the covenant between yourselves and your God? "A perpetual covenant" means just what it says. "It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever;" God declares, "for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day He rested, and was refreshed." [Verses 16, 17.] This is our evidence. You will see ere long that there will be those who will become weary of hearing repeated the things that they ought to do but do not desire to do, and they will change the wording of the Bible. We know what the Lord says in Revelation about those who do that. "A perpetual covenant" is a perpetual covenant. {21LtMs, Ms 146, 1906, par. 28}


For a refresher, here's what it says in Revelation about changing the wording of the Bible:

Originally Posted by The Holy Bible
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. (Revelation 22:18-19)


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.




Last edited by Green Cochoa; 01/15/21 10:31 PM. Reason: Fixed butchered quote characters

We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Ellen White on Bible Versions [Re: Green Cochoa] #193442
01/16/21 02:01 AM
01/16/21 02:01 AM
dedication  Offline
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The most accurate scriptures are, of course the originals, in their original languages.

Only problem is that the originals were written thousands of years ago. We are dependent upon people who carefully wrote out copies of the original scriptures.

So first we need to know which of these copies (in the original language) accurately contain the original words.

Seems that through the centuries there were two main streams of manuscripts.
--One comes to us through the Catholic church (which early translated to Latin, plus two or three Greek manuscripts have been found dating to about Constantine's time )
--The other "received" strain comes to us mainly from outside the Catholic church. There are hundreds of Greek manuscripts with remarkable identical reading.

Bible versions based on the latter "received text" are deemed the closest to the original -- and in the English language the King James Version is generally considered the closest to the received text.

Personally I like to have the King James Version as the basic Bible for study. Yet, there are other translations that still stick pretty close to a "literal" translation that bring out meaning from texts that are missed when reading the King James, simply because they use language we are more familiar with.
Nice to have interlinear resources when there is doubt to check to see what words were actually used in the Greek received manuscripts.

Of even greater concern is the difference between "literal translation" and "thought' or paraphrase translations.
The literal translational seeks to translate the words accurately from the Greek or Hebrew, while the second translates the verse to say what they think it means.
There are wide variations in meaning in many of these Bible versions.


It's in these more loosely translated paraphrases and "thought" translations that we see a lot more outright REWRITING and rewording to make the Bible say sometimes the exact opposite of what it actually says.

Take for example a text often used against Sabbath keepers --

Colossians 2:16-17 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath, Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. KJV

Nothing in that text says anything about doing away with the Sabbath.
It does say "don't let anyone judge you in respect of.....
Doesn't say there's a shadow which is now fulfilled
but there is a shadow of things still coming.
Doesn't say anything about temporal Jewish rules that are now ended.
The "body" (sōma) means "body" and refers to the church -- and Christ is the Head.
for we see in the fnext verses -
the body is of Christ. Let no man beguile you...in worshipping angels...and not holding to the Head from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment....

Now look at these Bibles --

NIV 12:6 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

They added quite a few descriptive words.
They changed the future tense (is to come) to a past tense (were to come) in verse 17, and changed the rest of the verse.

The Living Bible goes even further, changing the meaning by adding all kinds of things.

16 So don?t let anyone criticize you for what you eat or drink, or for not celebrating Jewish holidays and feasts or new moon ceremonies or Sabbaths. 17 For these were only temporary rules that ended when Christ came. They were only shadows of the real thing?of Christ himself.

The ASV is closer

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a feast day or a new moon or a sabbath day: 17 which are a shadow of the things to come; but the body is Christ?s. 18 Let no man rob you of your prize by a voluntary humility and worshipping of the angels...19and not holding fast the Head, from whom all the body, being supplied and knit together ....

Re: Ellen White on Bible Versions [Re: Green Cochoa] #193443
01/16/21 08:12 AM
01/16/21 08:12 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline OP
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Statement #2:

Originally Posted by Ellen White
Well, there was war in heaven, and all the disaffected ones were overcome and cast down to the earth. I want to tell you that that wonderful Lucifer who wanted the highest place, lost his hold of heaven. He would not repent, and therefore there are two parties in our world. There is one party that is striving that they may be overcomers by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony. The party that rebelled in heaven had intelligence and knowledge, and they used them on the wrong side, to build up opposing elements. That is how they used their knowledge. Do you think that that party would have no influence with the highest parties on the earth? They felt perfectly capable of handling matters, and here was the work going right on in the earth. There were agencies that came from heaven. Why, they had intelligence, the greatest intelligence. They did not lose their intelligence all at once. But they had not the power, the connection with God, the power of discernment, to understand that if they repented, they could be brought back again. {25LtMs, Ms 80, 1910, par. 9}

Now what does Satan propose to do? He proposes that he is capable of changing this Bible. These parties that fell understand all about heaven, and that they can bring in the different sentiments from the Bible, and they are going to have a revision of it. You will see they will make revisions of the Bible, but every one of us needs to stand intelligently on the Word. We cannot afford to be careless, but we must have that simplicity of godliness that is a virtue to us. We must have it. {25LtMs, Ms 80, 1910, par. 10}


Does a Luciferian revision of the Bible sound attractive to you? Ellen White is clear that Lucifer's party on earth, including members of the angel choir that followed him in his rebellion in heaven, "will make revisions of the Bible." Clearly, those revisions are unsafe. And we must avoid them. This puts a bit more "spark" to the discussion of Bible versions--but the full gravity of the situation is more fully disclosed in yet another quote to come.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Ellen White on Bible Versions [Re: Green Cochoa] #193444
01/16/21 08:45 AM
01/16/21 08:45 AM
Daryl  Offline

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Interesting EGW quotes.

Keep them coming.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: Ellen White on Bible Versions [Re: Green Cochoa] #193460
01/16/21 10:10 PM
01/16/21 10:10 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline OP
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Statement #3:

Originally Posted by Ellen White
I tell you that Lucifer who fell from heaven, is a busy workman. He is working with all his power, and so are all those fallen angels; and they are highly educated. Did they lose all their education? They took their education and brought it along with them, that they might use it to grasp souls. They can make the plea of their wonderful intelligence, and we want to become intelligent, too, that we may be able to meet the powers of darkness, not by changing the Word, but by the very Word of God we can meet them. {25LtMs, Ms 81, 1910, par. 34}


This is a simple message here: We should not be among those who are changing the Word.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Ellen White on Bible Versions [Re: Green Cochoa] #193465
01/17/21 12:07 PM
01/17/21 12:07 PM
ProdigalOne  Offline
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Is the 1611 KJV a better/more accurate translation than the KJV of today?


"...I will not forget you.
Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands..."

Isaiah 49:15-16
Re: Ellen White on Bible Versions [Re: Green Cochoa] #193468
01/17/21 12:57 PM
01/17/21 12:57 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Originally Posted by Green Cochoa
Here's one statement. Expect more, and stronger statements to come.

Originally Posted by Ellen White
Do you desire to destroy the covenant between yourselves and your God? "A perpetual covenant" means just what it says. "It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever;" God declares, "for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day He rested, and was refreshed." [Verses 16, 17.] This is our evidence. You will see ere long that there will be those who will become weary of hearing repeated the things that they ought to do but do not desire to do, and they will change the wording of the Bible. We know what the Lord says in Revelation about those who do that. "A perpetual covenant" is a perpetual covenant. {21LtMs, Ms 146, 1906, par. 28}


What is Ellen White talking about here? What is the context, what is she implying is specifically being changed?

Re: Ellen White on Bible Versions [Re: Green Cochoa] #193477
01/17/21 05:17 PM
01/17/21 05:17 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline OP
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Joined: Apr 2008
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Statement #4:

Originally Posted by Ellen White
Among the ten virgins only half were wise. We must not trust to mere theory, but [use] the oil of grace, that our lamps may shine so that the world will take knowledge of us that we have been with Jesus and learned of Him. Satan is watching that he may find the mind in an unguarded moment and so get possession of it. We do not want to be ignorant of his devices, neither do we want to be overpowered by his devices. He is pleased with the pictures that represent him as having horns and hoofs, for he has intelligence; he was once an angel of light. To these that trust in their intelligence he will make believe that they can correct the Scriptures. You are going to meet this infidelity in high places. {Ms11-1893.9}

You need the Holy Spirit of God, the divine power to co-operate with you to discern the track that the devil is preparing, and escape it. He is going to lead the religious world captive (2 Thessalonians 2:11). How dare they to lay their sacrilegious hands upon the Scriptures! We must bring the Sabbath of the Lord to the front. It is so plain, and so decided. It is a sign between the children of God and the children of the world. Please read (Exodus 31:17): "It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed." {Ms11-1893.10}

When Christ delivered His memorial Sermon on the Mount, He gave the exposition of His own law. The Pharisees thought He was dishonoring the law, for their traditions so covered the law that it could not be kept. Christ was bringing right principles before them, and these words fell upon their astonished ears: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." Matthew 5:17, 18. If men with reasoning faculties pass over what the Lord Jesus Christ says, it becomes us to stand where we can defend the honor of the law of the Lord God of Israel. We can do so by presenting the truth as it is in Jesus. The enemy has ever labored to disconnect the law and the gospel. They go hand in hand. {Ms11-1893.11}

We know not how soon we shall be singled out as not being law abiding citizens, because the prince of the power of the air is getting possession of the minds of men. We can choose between obeying the powers that be and dishonoring God, or disobeying the powers that be and honoring God. If we obey God, His Holy Spirit is resting upon us, and we are not fighting with our own assertions, but with "It is written." All we have to do is to go back to the fourth commandment. Read the testimony of Jesus Christ that not even a little dot was to be altered, but it is just as written by the finger of God on the tables of stone. We should love the truth because it is truth. {Ms11-1893.12}


This message seems particularly appropriate in the era of COVID. There is more here than first meets the eye. You may wish to read carefully, with a mind open to themes beyond that of Bible translations merely. But, speaking of them laying "their sacrilegious hands on the scriptures," have you heard that the Chinese government is producing a new Bible translation? Yes, they want to make one that is more friendly to the ideals of Communism. This, of course, is an extreme example, and would probably not work so well in the West. But Satan is adaptable, and finds ways to work in every locality.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Ellen White on Bible Versions [Re: Green Cochoa] #193478
01/18/21 10:44 PM
01/18/21 10:44 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline OP
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Statement #5:

Originally Posted by Ellen White
We are to maintain the inspiration of the Scriptures religiously and zealously, in a period of the world's [history] when men who claim to be religious are not religious as far as the sacred Scriptures are concerned. They are a pretense. They would change the Scriptures into an unreliable production and bring in forgery as the word of the Lord. {25LtMs, Ms 88, 1910, par. 2}


The statement speaks for itself. Note that "would" has more significance than merely the future-conditional context we ordinarily use it for nowadays.

One more statement before the "bombshell" comes...then on to application of these to the inspired writings of Mrs. White herself. If God's Word will be tampered with, what immunity would her writings have?

I realize that some will have theological difficulties with the fact that God, who says He will preserve His Word, would allow corruptions of it to exist. But there is a preserved line of manuscripts for the Bible and anyone who is honest in heart and seeks for this can find it. Some of our past discussions on Bible versions highlighted them: we have the "Majority Text" and the "Minority Text": Perhaps more on those later.

"Truth is the first casualty of war."

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Ellen White on Bible Versions [Re: kland] #193484
01/19/21 02:02 PM
01/19/21 02:02 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Originally Posted by kland
Originally Posted by Green Cochoa
Here's one statement. Expect more, and stronger statements to come.

Originally Posted by Ellen White
Do you desire to destroy the covenant between yourselves and your God? "A perpetual covenant" means just what it says. "It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever;" God declares, "for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day He rested, and was refreshed." [Verses 16, 17.] This is our evidence. You will see ere long that there will be those who will become weary of hearing repeated the things that they ought to do but do not desire to do, and they will change the wording of the Bible. We know what the Lord says in Revelation about those who do that. "A perpetual covenant" is a perpetual covenant. {21LtMs, Ms 146, 1906, par. 28}


What is Ellen White talking about here? What is the context, what is she implying is specifically being changed?

I'm sorry, but I didn't see a response to my question.
Do you think that's not a valid question.

Re: Ellen White on Bible Versions [Re: Green Cochoa] #193485
01/19/21 02:31 PM
01/19/21 02:31 PM
dedication  Offline
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Originally Posted by Green Cochoa
There is more here than first meets the eye. You may wish to read carefully, with a mind open to themes beyond that of Bible translations merely.


Very true!
Satan hates the scriptures, and when he can't ban it's reading, he uses many other ways to bring the Bible truths into confusion. One huge way to do this is in changing the way the Bible is interpreted.

Satan is a diligent Bible student, he is inspiring " men who claim to be religious but are not religious" to so link phrases in scripture together in order to make the Bible say the exact opposite of what it actually says. He not only changes actual wording, he changes the meaning of the words themselves, to the point where two people can be talking together using the SAME WORDS, thinking they are talking about the same thing, yet understanding the message totally differently.

This was even true back in the early church, when they still had Paul's actual letters as written, "which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." (2 Peter 3:16)
Gnostic thought, higher criticism, allegorical reading, skepticism, and simply seeking to make scripture say what one wants it to say, have brought totally confusion.

Of course -- with all these new translation versions, all this confusion tends to get implanted right in the text and often in just tiny almost unperceivable ways. We do need to seek for the Bible version that is the truest to the original for our foundational Bible study.

Yet, remember the Bible is the Word of God, bringing us the message of hope, life, ultimate truth, and redemption from the bondage of sin; and God has promised those who with humble hearts, depending upon the Holy Spirit to guide them into all truth, make the Bible their constant study and guide will find truth.

But we need Divine help --

"Without the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit, men will not be able to distinguish truth from error, and they will fall under the masterful temptations of Satan. {COL 408.3}

Re: Ellen White on Bible Versions [Re: kland] #193487
01/19/21 09:53 PM
01/19/21 09:53 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline OP
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Originally Posted by kland
Originally Posted by kland
Originally Posted by Green Cochoa
Here's one statement. Expect more, and stronger statements to come.

Originally Posted by Ellen White
Do you desire to destroy the covenant between yourselves and your God? "A perpetual covenant" means just what it says. "It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever;" God declares, "for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day He rested, and was refreshed." [Verses 16, 17.] This is our evidence. You will see ere long that there will be those who will become weary of hearing repeated the things that they ought to do but do not desire to do, and they will change the wording of the Bible. We know what the Lord says in Revelation about those who do that. "A perpetual covenant" is a perpetual covenant. {21LtMs, Ms 146, 1906, par. 28}


What is Ellen White talking about here? What is the context, what is she implying is specifically being changed?

I'm sorry, but I didn't see a response to my question.
Do you think that's not a valid question.


Perhaps it's a valid question, but I'm not the valid respondent. Ask Ellen White. Ask your Bible. Ask God and the help of His Holy Spirit. The promise of the Bible is still true today that those who seek with all their heart will find.

I have included the actual paragraph tags to these quotes, and they are publicly available online (unfortunately these are NOT on the EGW CD). You may find them and read them from their original context at https://egwwritings.org.

I would definitely encourage people to do what dedication says we should in her post just above:

Originally Posted by dedication
We do need to seek for the Bible version that is the truest to the original for our foundational Bible study.


After statement #7 comes out, you will see just how important this is. It makes me angry that the White Estate kept these statements under wraps for so very long, in spite of the fact that the church was very much needing this guidance, dating from the Bible Conference of 1919. Why should the church have needed to flounder about in a sea of erroneous opinions when God had given us clear warnings on this point? Why should our church have needlessly adopted the attitude espoused by Maxwell that "through this Book, in all its multiplicity of versions and translations, God has chosen to speak to human hearts in all the world." Maxwell counselled people to "read all the versions you can obtain."

Maxwell was wrong. God has clearly not chosen every version of the Bible. But, since the White Estate had not released Ellen White's own statements giving warning about this, how was he to know? The church soundly rejected the other watchman on the wall: Dr. Benjamin Wilkinson, dean of theology at our Washington Missionary College in Tacoma Park. He warned everyone of the changes that had been made in some of the modern versions--and that was still in his time, for many more versions have come out since then. But Maxwell and Wilkinson would have dramatically differed on this question of Bible versions, and unfortunately, the Maxwell theology prevailed in our church. Our own Sabbath School quarterlies have often relied on the NIV or other popular versions: Maxwell's own favorite seems to have been the RSV--the very namesake for what Ellen White said was coming: revisions.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Ellen White on Bible Versions [Re: Green Cochoa] #193488
01/19/21 09:56 PM
01/19/21 09:56 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline OP
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Statement #6:

Originally Posted by Ellen White
There is need of a close, earnest study of the Scriptures. The world has converted the churches; therefore the Scriptures are misinterpreted and misapplied. They are not searched as earnestly as they should be. Great worldly knowledge is not required in order to gain a knowledge of the Scriptures. In the third chapter of Second Peter, warnings and instructions are given in regard to what shall take place in the last days of this earth?s history. {Ms132-1898.2}

"Wherefore beloved," the apostle says, "seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. And account that the long-suffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according unto the wisdom given unto him, hath written unto you; as also in all of his epistles, speaking in some of them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they which are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their destruction." [Verses 14-16.] {Ms132-1898.3}

This is often done. It is the mind and character of the persons who study the Scriptures that makes the study dangerous. The difficulties will be removed from the way of those who search the Scriptures with earnest, humble hearts, praying to the Lord for wisdom. There is to be no cutting out of Scripture, no mutilating the Word, as the Catholics have done. The Bible is to be searched as a whole. The things in it hard to be understood will become plain through the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit. {Ms132-1898.4}


Clearly, at least one member of the fallen party who have been participant to "mutilating the Word" is identified here. How, then, can Adventists receive the modern versions, hot off their presses, that have emerged from the Catholic-dominated Bible societies--without even questioning them?

Next, the bombshell statement . . . .

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Ellen White on Bible Versions [Re: Green Cochoa] #193497
01/21/21 09:15 PM
01/21/21 09:15 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline OP
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Statement #7:

If you ignore all prior ones, do not neglect to read this one.

Originally Posted by Ellen White
We read in Deuteronomy four: "Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the Lord God of your fathers giveth you." [Verse 1.] It is our life to be obedient children of God. This is the highest class of education. "Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish aught from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you." [Verse 2.] Now mind that. Men are changing the Bible to conform to the ideas of higher education, and they have those special ones that fell from heaven, that were so enlightened, to help them in making it a very grand thing, but it will be so grand that there will be very few who accept it that will ever enter heaven. {Ms84-1910.44}


People are changing the Bible, folks. And the changes they make are of eternal import. Your Bible version may decide if you will ever enter heaven. This is not a matter of idle debate. Souls will be eternally lost over their choice of which "scripture" they chose to accept.

CHOOSE WISELY.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Ellen White on Bible Versions [Re: Green Cochoa] #193501
01/22/21 06:29 PM
01/22/21 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Green Cochoa
Originally Posted by kland

What is Ellen White talking about here? What is the context, what is she implying is specifically being changed?


Perhaps it's a valid question, but I'm not the valid respondent. Ask Ellen White. Ask your Bible. Ask God and the help of His Holy Spirit. The promise of the Bible is still true today that those who seek with all their heart will find.

I have included the actual paragraph tags to these quotes, and they are publicly available online (unfortunately these are NOT on the EGW CD). You may find them and read them from their original context at https://egwwritings.org.

Green, I expected an apology. Or at least a retraction of the statement. While there may be some statement, somewhere, that Ellen White says other versions are not valid, obviously your #1 statement does not relate to it.

My first thought is, do you do this to inflame people? You've done this more than once.
But I will give you the benefit of the doubt. Very easy to search for keywords. Much harder to actually understand the meaning. I'm guessing you didn't actually read it in context and that's why you are at a loss as to what the context is.


So yes, people, read these quotes in the context yourself. You will find there is no hidden secret message that has been kept back from you. You will find this is nothing but more of the same of what Green has been saying for years. The context does not support his premise.

Re: Ellen White on Bible Versions [Re: Green Cochoa] #193507
01/22/21 11:20 PM
01/22/21 11:20 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline OP
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kland,

I have no interest in debate. Feel free to differ with me--we all see things differently. You and I both must choose wisely which teachings we will accept as truth and which we will consider error.

But on the question of context, I think it is very important to note that people often carry context too far. Context is good, and it is important to consider the context of something. But when it comes to inspiration, context is not a box in which to put a statement in and restrict its application to only that context. Inspired statements tend to jump out of those boxes.

Consider some Biblical examples:

Here is one.

Originally Posted by The Bible
Leviticus 23:32 -- It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath.


According to that, the "even unto even" applied to a specific sabbath held on the ninth day of the seventh month. But we have other inspired writings that pull this principle out of this context and apply it broadly everywhere, to all Sabbaths, don't we?

Here's another one.

Originally Posted by The Bible
Numbers 14:34 -- After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise.

Ezekiel 4:6 -- And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.


The first text was clearly in the context of the wilderness wanderings...nothing more. The second one was in the context of Ezekiel's prophecy against Jerusalem. Are other inspired writers going against the "rule of context" in applying the day-for-a-year principle outside of the actual contexts in which it is given? YES. The Bible seems to make no such rule as people like to make.

Be careful how you study...it affects what you believe...and be careful what you believe...it affects your salvation.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Ellen White on Bible Versions [Re: Green Cochoa] #193545
01/25/21 12:04 PM
01/25/21 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Green Cochoa
Are other inspired writers

Important key point: Inspired writers.

Re: Ellen White on Bible Versions [Re: Green Cochoa] #193568
01/28/21 10:30 PM
01/28/21 10:30 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline OP
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Statement #8: Expanding to Ellen White's Writings

Originally Posted by Ellen White
[ALL ELLIPSES ORIGINAL]
?I am the Root and offspring ... say, Come.? [Verses 16, 17.] Now you can see what God?s people are doing. They are not all burying themselves up in selfishness. ?Let him that heareth say, Come ... written in this book.? [Verses 17-19.] Now I want you to think of that a moment. There are plans laid in every way to change the sentiments of the Bible, that it shall not be so forbidding, they say, so forbidding. And I write my works, I write as I am talking to you. I am up hours before any one moves in my house. I am up writing page after page, page after page, and it is coming out to the people. But it is because I am unable to sleep as I consider the peril of souls in various places, and they seem to be dead asleep. They have got the Word. {Ms188-1907.25}

They come to me, those that are copying my writings, and say, ?Now here is the better revised words, and I think I will put that in.? Don?t you change one word, not a word. The revised edition we do not need at all. We have got the word that Christ has spoken Himself and given us. And don?t you in my writings change a word for any revised edition. There will be revised editions, plenty of them, just before the close of this earth?s history, and I want all my workers to understand, and I have got quite a number of them. I want them to understand that they are never to take the revised word, and put it in the place of the plain, simple words just as they are. They think they are improving them, but how do they know but that they may switch off on an idea, and give it less importance than Christ means them to have. {Ms188-1907.26}


Consider, for example, the "gender neutral" editions of Ellen White's books that have come out from the White Estate, fulfilling Mrs. White's prophecy here. Folks, we are in the times "just before the close of this earth's history."

We are living in times when we cannot be assured that the materials we are reading have not been altered--particularly with newer releases (compilations, abridgments, etc.). I think there was some discussion on the forum here in the past about "The Great Hope" book.

There have also been major edits done to other books, such as the book "Daniel and the Revelation," by Uriah Smith, which, although this was not written by Mrs. White herself, she had highly recommended and placed it on par with her own books in importance. We've had some discussion here in the past with respect to that one as well, for it also fulfilled Mrs. White's prophecy that "books of a new order" would be written. In the case of Daniel and the Revelation, the editing took place after 1931 when our church first began to drift toward the acceptance of the Trinity doctrine. The leaders knew they would have to change that book, because it was so clearly non-trinitarian up to that point. Once they got into meddling with it, however, they changed far more than simply removing all of the non-trinitarian materials. They changed entire paragraphs, adding and subtracting at the will of the editors, and changing interpretations of some of the prophecies.

Satan knows that by these "revisions," he will be able to lead many astray. This is why it is so important to compare and evaluate the truth of anything with a clear "thus saith the Lord." We must not even trust what our church leaders say or publish--we must check it against the Bible. "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." (Isaiah 8:20).

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Ellen White on Bible Versions [Re: Green Cochoa] #193573
01/29/21 10:34 AM
01/29/21 10:34 AM
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"gender neutral" editions of Ellen White's books that have come out from the White Estate"!? What?! When did this happen?


"...I will not forget you.
Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands..."

Isaiah 49:15-16
Re: Ellen White on Bible Versions [Re: ProdigalOne] #193575
01/29/21 11:11 AM
01/29/21 11:11 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline OP
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Originally Posted by ProdigalOne
"gender neutral" editions of Ellen White's books that have come out from the White Estate"!? What?! When did this happen?


Christ Triumphant (CTr) -- 1999
Be Like Jesus (BLJ) -- 2004

There are probably newer ones, but I have the 2008 CD, so it wouldn't have anything past that date. Here's a table borrowed from www.womenordination.com as an example of some of the changes made:

As Recently Altered By the White Estate
(Christ Triumphant, p. 146)
As Actually Written by Ellen White
(Unpublished Ms. 163, 1902)
Those placed in positions of responsibility should be men and women who fear God, who realize that they are humans only, not God. They should be people who will rule under God and for Him. Will they give expression to the will of God for His people? Do they allow selfishness to tarnish word and action?

Do they, after obtaining the confidence of the people as leaders of wisdom who fear God and keep His commandments, belittle the exalted position that the people of God should occupy in these days of peril? Will they through self-confidence become false guideposts, pointing the way to friendship with the world instead of the way to heaven?
Those placed in positions of responsibility should be men who fear God, who realize that they are men only, not God. They should be men who rule under God and for Him. Will they give expression to the will of God for His people? Do they allow selfishness to tarnish word and action?

Do they, after obtaining the confidence of the people as men of wisdom, who fear God and keep His commandments, belittle the exalted position that the people of God should occupy in these days of peril? Will they through self-confidence become false guide-posts, pointing the way to friendship with the world instead of the way to heaven?


* The altered quotation is found in the devotional Christ Triumphant, which acknowledges in the introduction that Ellen White?s words have been modified to make them ?gender neutral.? See Angel Rodriquez, Evaluation of the Arguments Used by Those Opposing the Ordination of Women to the Ministry, p. 66, January, 2014 TOSC.

While Ellen White clearly understood and taught that both men and women can occupy positions of responsibility in the church, she was not calling for identical leadership roles in the church for both males and females.


The White Estate certainly did not keep their revisionary work a secret, however. They included statements about it in the foreword for each book. For example, skipping the first two (and longest) paragraphs, what follows is the remainder of the foreword for Christ Triumphant. (Please pardon the all-caps--this is how it appears on the CD-ROM.)

Originally Posted by CTr foreword
NEARLY 90 PERCENT OF THIS BOOK HAS BEEN DRAWN FROM ELLEN WHITE?S LETTERS, SERMONS, AND MANUSCRIPTS. PORTIONS OF THESE MATERIALS WILL BE FAMILIAR TO FREQUENT READERS OF HER BOOKS, AS SOME EXTRACTS HAVE BEEN USED IN THE MANY COMPILATIONS PREPARED SINCE HER DEATH. THESE COMPILATIONS INCLUDE DEVOTIONAL BOOKS THAT HAVE BEEN PUBLISHED DURING THE PAST 50 YEARS. OTHER MATERIALS CAN BE FOUND IN MANUSCRIPT RELEASES, VOLUMES 1 TO 21, AND IN SERMONS AND TALKS, VOLUMES 1 AND 2.

IN GENERAL, THE TEXT FOR EACH DAY?S DEVOTIONAL STUDY HAS BEEN TAKEN FROM THE KING JAMES VERSION OF THE BIBLE. THIS WAS THE VERSION MOST USED BY ELLEN WHITE, THOUGH OCCASIONALLY SHE USED OTHERS.

THE PROPHETS WHOM GOD INSPIRED TO WRITE THE BOOKS OF THE BIBLE USED THE LANGUAGES OF THEIR DAY?HEBREW, ARAMAIC, AND GREEK. BUT THESE LANGUAGES WERE NOT UNDERSTOOD BY ALL, HENCE TRANSLATIONS WERE NEEDED. TO MAKE THE OLD TESTAMENT AVAILABLE TO PEOPLE UNACQUAINTED WITH HEBREW AND ARAMAIC, JEWISH SCHOLARS SEVERAL CENTURIES BEFORE THE TIME OF CHRIST PRODUCED A GREEK VERSION KNOWN AS THE SEPTUAGINT. FROM THIS BEGINNING THE SCRIPTURES HAVE BEEN TRANSLATED INTO MORE THAN A THOUSAND LANGUAGES. AND BEYOND THAT, NUMEROUS VERSIONS HAVE BEEN PRODUCED IN A SINGLE LANGUAGE.

AMONG THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE VERSIONS THE NEW REVISED STANDARD VERSION (NRSV) USES GENDER-INCLUSIVE LANGUAGE WITHOUT IN ANY WAY CHANGING THE MEANING OF THE TEXT. A FEW OF THE SCRIPTURE TEXTS FOR THE DAILY DEVOTIONALS IN THIS BOOK HAVE BEEN SELECTED FROM THIS VERSION.

LIKE THE BIBLE WRITERS, ELLEN WHITE USED THE LANGUAGE OF HER DAY. HOWEVER, WRITING STYLES CHANGE, AS DO MEANINGS OF WORDS. THUS, WHEN THE COMPREHENSIVE INDEX TO THE WRITINGS OF ELLEN G. WHITE WAS PUBLISHED IN 1963, A ?GLOSSARY OF OBSOLETE AND LITTLE USED WORDS AND TERMS WITH ALTERED MEANINGS? WAS INCLUDED AT THE END OF VOLUME 3. THE PURPOSE WAS TO HELP READERS UNDERSTAND BETTER WHAT MRS. WHITE WAS SAYING. IN HER TIME, WORDS SUCH AS ?HE,??MAN,??MEN,? AND ?MANKIND? WERE ACCEPTED AS GENERIC TERMS THAT INCLUDED BOTH MEN AND WOMEN. TODAY THIS IS NOT SO COMMON. THUS, WITHOUT MAKING ANY CHANGE IN MRS. WHITE?S THOUGHT, THIS DEVOTIONAL BOOK USES GENDER-INCLUSIVE LANGUAGE.

AS AN EXAMPLE, NOTE THE FEBRUARY 12 READING: ?THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A GOOD PERSON AND A WICKED PERSON IS NOT ALWAYS CAUSED BY NATURAL GOODNESS OF DISPOSITION.? THE ORIGINAL READS: ?THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A GOOD MAN AND A WICKED MAN IS NOT ALWAYS CAUSED BY NATURAL GOODNESS OF DISPOSITION.? IN THE FEBRUARY 3 READING, NOTE THE LINE THAT BEGINS: ?AS THE YEARS OF HUMAN BEINGS HAVE DECREASED, AND THEIR PHYSICAL STRENGTH HAS DIMINISHED, SO THEIR MENTAL CAPACITIES HAVE LESSENED.? THE ORIGINAL READS: ?AS THE YEARS OF MAN HAVE DECREASED, AND HIS PHYSICAL STRENGTH HAS DIMINISHED, SO HIS MENTAL CAPACITIES HAVE LESSENED.?

IT IS OUR PRAYER THAT THIS DEVOTIONAL BOOK WILL HELP EVERY READER BE BETTER PREPARED FOR THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST AND BE AMONG THOSE WHO IN ETERNITY WILL ENJOY THE FRUITS OF CHRIST?S VICTORY IN THE GREAT CONTROVERSY.

?THE TRUSTEES OF THE ELLEN G. WHITE ESTATE


Naturally, all of this has provided additional impetus to the women's liberation movement and the push for ordaining women.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Last edited by Green Cochoa; 01/29/21 11:14 AM.

We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Ellen White on Bible Versions [Re: Green Cochoa] #193581
01/30/21 06:29 AM
01/30/21 06:29 AM
dedication  Offline
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It seems "gender inclusive" would be a better term of what was done rather than "gender neutral".


My own personal journey in this ---

When the "anti WO" arguments were raging, I fell into a spiritual depression.
Yes, I protested against antiWO arguments, yet, I was not campaigning for women's ordination -- .
it was the arguments themselves that I often found offensive and rather degrading.

Whether those zealous against WO realized it or not, the arguments went far deeper than addressing who was to be pastor in a church. They affected how we are to look at our relationship with God.

In the years before all these heated discussions, when I read my Bible and the language spoke of God's love and care for men. I naturally understood it to mean HUMANS, (as being gender inclusive, not excluding women) I didn't question that, so the language didn't bother me at that earlier time.

But as the arguments raged, and it was hammered in, in strident and harsh tones that when the Bible said, MEN it MEANT MEN. Suddenly reading the Bible no longer brought the peace and joy. It was all about, and for men. men, men --- and seemed very "gender EXCLUSIVE".
Oh, yes, I tried to reassure myself it meant HUMANS, God loved and valued women just as much as men.
But the voices kept sounding -- Men means MEN, not women. When it says MEN, that excludes women.

I knew my inner response was not logical, I knew God loved and valued women just as much as men -- but it took awhile to start enjoying reading scripture again --- I started translating my own reading of scripture to include women.
When the Bible spoke of Christ dying so we could be the "sons of God" I added "sons and daughters" of God.
And--
John 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men (and women) through him might believe.
12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men (and women) unto me.


There were so many texts like that --
But I also noticed that often the word "men" was supplied.
Yes, the KJV often supplies the word "men" in it's verses, where it is not to be found in the original.

Both the verses above have the word "men" supplied.
They should actually read"
", that all through him might believe. "
"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all unto me. "


That was encouraging! It was actually the translators that emphasized males as the receivers of God's grace. The original said simply -- ALL --- (it was not exclusive)
It's also evident that EGW adopted the male oriented language of the KJV. But I highly doubt she meant it to be exclusive of women.


In Christ there is neither male nor female. (A great text, that reassures us God's grace is for males and females alike)

To make it gender inclusive is not about "ordination" but rather -- to allow women to experience the grace and love of God in reading inspired writings that Christ meant for them to receive. To feel God is fully including them, when they read His Word.


And yes, I do believe women are placed in positions of responsibility and they should be God-fearing
They are to bring glory to God by their ministering to others. There is nothing about "ordination" in that quote in the post above. Responsible leaders can mean Sabbath School teachers, Bible workers, and many other responsible positions of leadership.
The church needs God-fearing women in responsible positions. The quote applies to women in leadership roles just as to men in leadership.
To exclude women in that quote is just one example how those arguments excluded women from the gifts of God.

And yes, I am absolutely positive EGW meant both men and women when she wrote:
THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A GOOD MAN AND A WICKED MAN IS NOT ALWAYS CAUSED BY NATURAL GOODNESS OF DISPOSITION.
A woman is just as responsible herself to abide in Christ for righteousness, as is a man. She does not enter heaven on the shirt tails of her man, but only through her own connection with the Savior.

These gender inclusive compilations were written to meet a need for the greater number of it's members (women).
And the fact these editions are very frank in admitting they have changed the wording so both men and women feel the message is speaking to them -- is a good thing.
The compilers included statements about what they did in the foreword for each book. There is no effort to deceive.
The book "Daughters of God" is another book, written with the express purpose to help women sense that the messages are for women, not just for men.

You may disagree, and yes, if there is question if the meaning has changed, go to the original, but for many women those more inclusive gender compilations can be more meaningful, personal and inclusive.



Re: Ellen White on Bible Versions [Re: dedication] #193582
01/30/21 06:57 AM
01/30/21 06:57 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline OP
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Originally Posted by dedication
It seems "gender inclusive" would be a better term of what was done rather than "gender neutral".


Well, whatever term one uses might be found disagreeable or even offensive to some. The White Estate used both. I'll try to post a screenshot, along with the following image.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Attached Files
Last edited by Green Cochoa; 01/30/21 06:58 AM. Reason: Added uploaded screenshot of Ellen White CD software

We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Ellen White on Bible Versions [Re: Green Cochoa] #193583
01/30/21 07:14 AM
01/30/21 07:14 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline OP
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Originally Posted by dedication
In Christ there is neither male nor female. (A great text, that reassures us God's grace is for males and females alike)

To make it gender inclusive is not about "ordination" but rather -- to allow women to experience the grace and love of God in reading inspired writings that Christ meant for them to receive. To feel God is fully including them, when they read His Word.


Words like these, though many have repeated them, show a superficial understanding of the scriptures with respect to the message of Galatians 3:28. The text doesn't exactly say it that way. Of course there is both male and female "in Christ." Our Creator made both, designed it to be this way, and distinguishes between them. In fact, the very fact that both are mentioned explicitly in this verse acknowledges that both exist. They do have different roles, both in the Bible and as addressed in the writings of Ellen White. We are not merely genderless creatures. That verse has to do, not with genders, not with roles of any kind, but with eligibility to receive Christ and His salvation. Note the two preceding verses for important context:

Originally Posted by The Bible
For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. (Galatians 3:26-27)


Your second paragraph implies that God's Word is flawed--and needs improvement in order to make it appeal to women.

But what does the Bible say about those who change God's Word?

Originally Posted by The Bible
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book. (Revelation 22:18-19)


And what did Mrs. White say to her future revisionists?

Originally Posted by Ellen White
Don't you change one word, not a word. The revised edition we do not need at all. We have got the word that Christ has spoken Himself and given us. And don't you in my writings change a word for any revised edition. There will be revised editions, plenty of them, just before the close of this earth?s history, and I want all my workers to understand, and I have got quite a number of them. I want them to understand that they are never to take the revised word, and put it in the place of the plain, simple words just as they are.


Mrs. White spoke plainly enough on the matter that even the desire to change her words should be recognized immediately for what it is--a temptation of Satan. Satan wants the truth distorted in one way or another, and he hardly cares in which direction, for any direction suits his purpose, defacing the truth as Christ gave it.

Consider well these things.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Last edited by Green Cochoa; 01/30/21 07:48 AM.

We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Ellen White on Bible Versions [Re: Green Cochoa] #193594
01/30/21 11:47 PM
01/30/21 11:47 PM
dedication  Offline
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NO -- THE BIBLE IS NOT FLAWED --- BUT PEOPLE'S INTERPRETATION IS FLAWED.
The Bible is not Exclusive, but people have made it to sound exclusive.


TWO MAIN WAYS:

1. Adding words to the Bible to make it exclusive?
Is that OK? You say, no don't add to the Bible, but seem to have no problem when that addition makes the text sound exclusive for males.

NOW --

Look at all these texts where the word "men" has been ADDED by the translators.
It was NOT in the originals.

John 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
The original writer wrote: "..to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe. "


John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

The original writer wrote:
"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all unto me. "

Mark 5:20 And he departed, and began to publish in Decapolis how great things Jesus had done for him: and all men did marvel.
The original writer wrote:
And he departed and began to publish in Decapolis how great things Jesus had done for him and all did marvel.


There were many texts like that --
the word "men" was supplied by the translators.
Yes, the KJV often supplies the word "men" in verses, where it is not to be found in the original.
That is ADDING to God's Word.


PROBLEM TWO:
By changing the meaning of words, which in turn changes the meaning of God's Word, even though the literal words remain the same.
The CHANGING of the meaning of words so as to make it sound EXCLUSIVE (males only), when the original words were NOT exclusive.

The word --anthropos--
means -- a human being, whether male or female
generically it includes all human individuals.
It is almost always translated as "man".
Translating it as "human being" or "person" would be perfectly consistent with it's meaning.
Translating it as "person" is NOT changing God's Word.

But when people start insisting --anthropos-- is "man" and means "male" only -- what have they done?
They have altered the word of God!

Thus who is changing God's Word?
Those who say, --anthropos-- is INCLUSIVE of men and women,
or those who say it is EXCLUSIVE, men only?

It is written, Man G444 shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Clearly the inclusive meaning -- It is written a human being shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that preceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Probably "a created human being" shall not live by bread alone but by every word that preceedeth out of the mouth of God" would be even more on target as to the original intended meaning.

To insist God's Word in it's many uses of the word -- anthropos-- must mean (male) man, alone, is actually the one who is altering the MEANING of God's Word and destroying it. --anthropos-- means -- a human being, whether male or female, generically it includes all human individuals

Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his image, in the image of God created he him male and female created he them. Phrases were added to make the sentence flow.
elohiym bara adam tselem tselem elohiym bara zakar neqebah bara .






Do you believe it is God's will to include women as those who are to read His Word, live by it, and believe it is speaking to them in a personal manner.

Remember -- it's not the Bible that is flawed, it is men.
Now interpret that last sentence according to how you interpret it's use of the words in the Bible.






Re: Ellen White on Bible Versions [Re: dedication] #193595
01/31/21 01:16 AM
01/31/21 01:16 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2021

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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Dedication,

I agree with a lot of what you are saying. That Greek word "anthropos" is a bit of difficulty, because people don't throw around the word "human" much in ordinary speech or even writing--yet that is technically what the word means. The translators must have felt that word wouldn't convey the sense of the text as well as the more common word "man" would. Now, it's true that definitions have changed--and a big part of that was a result of the feminist movement that has created the problem we now seem to have with the usage of "man" in place of "mankind", "human", or "humankind." It used to be that no one, not even a woman, would have had any issue at all with the use of "man," knowing that it could mean mankind generally. Today's women are particular--they must have the text acknowledge them.

I've done advanced studies where I was required to read many peer-reviewed academic papers and do research based on them. The American Psychological Association, the same organization promoting the use of terminology that is gender-neutral, pleasing to the LGBTIQXXX community, and so forth, promotes the concept of using "he" and "she" (or "him" and "her) alternately in any text referring to someone in general. In Ellen White's day, everyone said simply "he." About two-three decades ago, folk were being taught to use "he or she" and "him or her", etc. Because the added verbiage became choresome, especially when writing on certain subjects where persons must be continually referenced, the APA adopted this alternation scheme and promulgated it as the new politically correct way to write/speak.

Well, in my advanced studies coursework, I discovered that the majority of the papers were not using "he" or "him" alternatingly with "she" or "her." They were using ONLY "she" and "her."

You may have noticed that I frequently (probably almost always) use "he or she" or "himself or herself"--this type of language when posting here. I have tried to be fair with both sides. But it is clear that the agenda has been moving with a decided bias against men. It is my understanding, from what I heard rumored at church yesterday, that the American congress has just passed a new law that outlaws the use of all of these gender-specific terms. One cannot say mother, father, he, she, or any such gender-identifying term anymore from a public/governmental position--as I understand; e.g. these terms would be unacceptable in a public school.

The whole gender debate, begun by the feminists, continued by the academics, furthered by the modern Bible revisions--and even the White Estate in making modern revisions of Ellen White, is now taking power in government and politics, and we who wish to recognize that there IS a God-made distinction between male and female will soon find ourselves in difficult straits.

As Ellen White has said, "error is never harmless."

Which brings me to one particular item of error that I found in your post and would like to correct. I do not like to see the Scriptures misrepresented, yet you seem to have done so.

The Hebrew word "אֹת֑וֹ" (?ō?ṯōw) which is translated as "him" in the text is the Hebrew direct object marker. It is usually not translated in English, but in this case it is not in the typical form, either, for it has a third-person masculine suffix (וֹ), indicating the gender and number of the object--unlike, for example, the simple "אֵ֥ת" from Genesis 1:1 to indicate that "heavens" and "earth" are the direct object of the verb "bara" (he created). In other words, when you strike out the words "he him", you are doing so erroneously. You also err to strike out the "he them."

Originally Posted by dedication
Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his image, in the image of God created he him male and female created he them. Phrases were added to make the sentence flow.
elohiym bara adam tselem tselem elohiym bara zakar neqebah bara .


Those are not egregious additions at all. God Himself is always represented by masculine nouns throughout the Bible, both in Hebrew and in Greek, and, like in Spanish, pronouns are built into the verbs. With only the verb, and without a noun, we actually should already know the gender (and number) of the one performing the action (there are some possible ambiguities related to the second-person "you"--but that's too advanced for this mini-lesson). In the text you quoted, the "וַיִּבְרָ֨א" (so he created) already tells us the gender of the Creator, even before the noun comes (nouns usually follow their verbs in Hebrew, as in this case it does). So we have, if translated very literally, "he created (God) [direct object marker] man in His image . . ." The direct object marker, when present, ALWAYS indicates a definite object, i.e. the definite article is implied. So, if we conform this to English grammar, reordering a little so that it actually makes correct sense in English, we might have something like: "So he, God, created the man in his image . . .]. Now, that is just the first part of the verse. Notice that in the second part of the verse, the direct object marker includes what looks like a carot underneath of it. As I understand, this indicates the "midpoint" of the sentence (in quotes, because it's not at all the middle of the sentence, but the center point in terms of its thought). This indicates a significant word, which tells us that the Masoretes, who added these notations, considered this an integral part of the expression. I don't recall ever noticing this mark under a normal direct object marker, so the additional suffix to this one must indeed be the direct object "him" which completes the thought and marks the clause break between the two parts of the verse. In this case, the suffix is not the word "he", it is simply a suffix used to make the word to which it is attached have a third-person singular, masculine application. That does, correctly, translate to the objective case third-person masculine singular pronoun "him" in English.

I'm going to attach a screenshot of the text in my interlinear that shows what I'm trying to say. You will notice that there are three direct object markers in the text, all numbered by Strong's number 853. However, please look at the Hebrew. You will notice that the first one is normal, with no suffix. The second one has the third-person masculine singular (3ms) suffix attached (remember to look on the LEFT side of the word for the suffix in Hebrew), and the third occurrence (bottom left) has the third-person masculine plural (3mp).

[Linked Image]

Now, I personally believe it very likely that Hebrew was the original language on this planet--because the faithful followers of God were not the ones who would have been at the tower of Babel. So a good case could be made for the fact that God Himself designed this language, and . . . . well, I leave that for the reader to draw his or her own conclusions.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.





Attached Files
Last edited by Green Cochoa; 01/31/21 01:17 AM. Reason: Edited to add image

We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Ellen White on Bible Versions [Re: Green Cochoa] #193596
01/31/21 04:35 AM
01/31/21 04:35 AM
dedication  Offline
Global Moderator
Supporting Member 2022

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,411
Canada
Thanks for the detailed study.
I fully agree " It used to be that no one would have had any issue at all with the use of the word "man," knowing that it could mean mankind generally."

I'm also aware the word is no longer assumed to mean human beings generally.

Thus I don't see a problem in translating the word "man" into a word that does mean human beings generally, where that is the meaning intended by original writer.

I do not agree with "gender neutrality" in which people don't know if they are male or female anymore. That's gender confusion.
God did create the human race, as male and female. Males are "he" "him". and Females are "she" and "her" etc. It is a sad state of affairs when fathers can't be called fathers any more, and mother's can't be called mothers any more. Men should be able to identify themselves as men, and women as women. Boys as boys, and girls as girls.

I guess it does get difficult when one is writing a general paper addressing both men and women when it comes to pronouns. Seems they would have to move to the plural "they" "them".

Re: Ellen White on Bible Versions [Re: kland] #193878
03/13/21 11:24 AM
03/13/21 11:24 AM
Rick H  Offline

Group: Admin Team
3000+ Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,100
Florida, USA
Originally Posted by kland
Originally Posted by Green Cochoa
Here's one statement. Expect more, and stronger statements to come.

Originally Posted by Ellen White
Do you desire to destroy the covenant between yourselves and your God? "A perpetual covenant" means just what it says. "It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever;" God declares, "for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day He rested, and was refreshed." [Verses 16, 17.] This is our evidence. You will see ere long that there will be those who will become weary of hearing repeated the things that they ought to do but do not desire to do, and they will change the wording of the Bible. We know what the Lord says in Revelation about those who do that. "A perpetual covenant" is a perpetual covenant. {21LtMs, Ms 146, 1906, par. 28}


What is Ellen White talking about here? What is the context, what is she implying is specifically being changed?

I think that is plain to see.

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