In advocating the view that the seven heads of the dragon of Revelation 12- represent seven forms of government that have existed in the Roman Empire, the writer deems it necessary to remind the reader that he is not dealing in novelties. He is not introducing a new view to appeal to the curiosity of the reader, and to cater to the not always healthy excitement of pursuing a line of thought because it is strange. But the view which will be advocated in this paper is one which has characterized the Adventist movement from the beginning, through the first, second, and third messages, to the present time, and is only beginning within a few years to be called in question. Nor can the view be said to be peculiar to Adventists in its historical aspect, - a scheme devised by them to meet their peculiar views of prophecy, -for scholars declared before the Adventist movement began, that Rome had presented to the world, as a unique and marvelous feature of history, seven distinct forms of government. All that the Adventists did, was to say, as the most natural thing in the world, that if Rome did have seven forms of government, the seven heads of the dragon, which was a symbol of Rome, must be designed to represent that fact? one of the earliest Protestant commentators, Osiander, as early as 1511, names the whole seven as we have them; namely, Kings, Consuls, Decemvirs, Dictators, Triumvirs, Emperors, and Popes, as the forms of Roman government represented by the seven heads of the dragon of Revelation 12... Adventists, under the first message, at once adopted this view.? {Uriah Smith; The Seven Heads of Revelation}

I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird." "And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, My people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues." Revelation 18:1, 2, 4. {GC 603.1}
This scripture points forward to a time when the announcement of the fall of Babylon, as made by the second angel of Revelation 14 (verse 8), is to be repeated, with the additional mention of the corruptions which have been entering the various organizations that constitute Babylon, since that message was first given, in the summer of 1844.

No prophecy can be found dealing with subjects in that way: that is, introducing new symbols to represent old governments which had had their day, and passed away, never again to appear among men. What conceivable reason could there be for prophecy thus to deal with them? Prophecy relates to the future from the time it is given not to the past. It only goes back far enough into the past to show the grounds for the future events which it predicts, and to identify the symbols which it introduces. Of this, we have an illustration in Rev. 12:1, 2. And just as soon as a nation has performed its part and passed away, it is dropped out of the chain of events, and the prophecy goes on with the future.
[?7 HEADS? p. 5 Para. 2].

Why would God give a brand new symbol for these ancient kingdoms? And why would they be included in a future prophecy?

,,,the view that the seven heads of the dragon of Revelation 12 represent seven forms of government that were developed in the Roman Empire alone, is now called in question,,,,

According to this [new] view, contrary to all precedent, the scope of this vision was retroactive, going back not merely to the beginning of the history of the then current government, but away outside of its limits, to take in the great governments of the earth, which had been already symbolized in prophecy, some of them three times over, and which had passed away centuries before, never again to appear or to have any influence among men. Such kingdoms as these, it is contended, are included among the heads of the dragon, the new enumeration being given as follows: 1. Babylon; 2. Medo-Persia; 3. Grecia; 4. Rome pagan; 5. Rome papal; 6. ??Atheist / protestant Europe 7. A future head yet unknown; 8. The papacy restored.

No prophecy can be found dealing with subjects in that way: that is, introducing new symbols to represent old governments which had had their day, and passed away, never again to appear among men. What conceivable reason could there be for prophecy thus to deal with them? Prophecy relates to the future from the time it is given not to the past.

The inquiries therefore naturally follow: What is meant by the term Babylon? what is its fall? and how is it fulfilled? As to the etymology of the word, we learn something from the marginal readings of Gen.10:10 and 11:9. The beginning of Nimrod's kingdom was Babel, or Babylon; and the place was so called because God there confounded the language of the builders of the tower; and the word means confusion. The word is here used figuratively to designate the great symbolic city of the book of Revelation, probably with special reference to the signification of the term, and the circumstances from which it originated. It applies to something on which, as specifying its chief characteristic, may be written the word "confusion." {1897 UrS, DAR 647.4} (page 648 picture)

There are but three possible objects to which the word can be applied; and these are (1) the apostate religious world in general, (2) the papal church in particular, and (3) the city of Rome. In examining these terms, we shall first show what Babylon is not. {1897 UrS, DAR 649.1}
1. Babylon is not confined to the Romish Church. That this church is a very prominent component part of great Babylon, is not denied. The descriptions of chapter 17 seem to apply very particularly to that church. But the name which she bears on her forehead, "Mystery, Babylon the Great, the Mother of Harlots and Abominations of the Earth," reveals other family connections. If this church is the mother, who are the daughters? The fact that these daughters are spoken of, shows that there are other religious bodies besides the Romish Church which come under this designation. Again, there is to be a call made in connection with this message, "Come out of her, my people" (Rev.18:1-4); and as this message is located in the present generation, it follows, if no other church but the Romish is included in Babylon, that the people of God, as a body, are now found in the communion of that church, and are to be called out. But this conclusion, no Protestant at least will be willing to adopt. {1897 UrS, DAR 649.2}

2. Babylon is not the city of Rome. The argument relied upon to show that the city of Rome is the Babylon of the Apocalypse runs thus: "The angel told John that the woman which he had seen was the great city which reigned over the kings of the earth, and that the seven heads of the beast are seven mountains upon which the woman sitteth." And then, taking the city and the mountains to be literal, and finding Rome built upon just seven hills, the application is made at once to literal Rome. {1897 UrS, DAR 649.3}
The principle upon which this interpretation rests is the assumption that the explanation of a symbol must always be
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literal. It falls to the ground the moment it can be shown that symbols are sometimes explained by substituting for them other symbols, and then explaining the latter. This can easily be done. In Rev.11:3, the symbol of the two witnesses is introduced. The next verse reads: "These are the two olive trees and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth." In this case the first symbol is said to be the same as another symbol which is elsewhere clearly explained. So in the case before us. "The seven heads are seven mountains," and "The woman is that great city;" and it will not be difficult to show that the mountains and the city are both used symbolically. The reader's attention is asked to the following points:- {1897 UrS, DAR 649.4}

(1) We are informed in chapter 13 that one of the seven heads was wounded to death. This head therefore cannot be a literal mountain; for it would be folly to speak of wounding a mountain to death. {1897 UrS, DAR 650.1}

(2) Each of the seven heads has a crown upon it. But who ever saw a literal mountain with a crown upon it? {1897 UrS, DAR 650.2}

(3) The seven heads are evidently successive in order of time; for we read, "Five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come." Revelation 17. But the seven hills on which Rome is built are not successive, and it would be absurd to apply such language to them. {1897 UrS, DAR 650.3}

(4) According to Dan.7:6, compared with DAn.8:8,22, heads denote governments; and according to Dan.2:35,44; Jer.51:25, mountains denote kingdoms. According to these facts, the version of Rev.17:9,10 given by Professor Whiting, which is a literal translation of the text, removes all obscurity: "The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sitteth, and they are seven kings." It will thus be seen that the angel represents the heads as mountains, and then explains the mountains to be seven successive kings, or forms of government. The meaning is transferred from one symbol to another, and then an explanation is given of the second symbol. {1897 UrS, DAR 650.4}

From the foregoing argument, it follows that the "woman" cannot represent a literal city; for the mountains upon which the woman sitteth being symbolic, a literal city cannot sit
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upon symbolic mountains. Again, Rome was the seat of the dragon of chapter 12, and this was transferred to the beast (Rev.13:2), thus becoming the seat of the beast; but it would be a singular mixture of figures to take the seat, which is sat upon by the beast, and make that a woman sitting upon the beast. {1897 UrS, DAR 650.5}

(5) Were the city of Rome the Babylon of the Apocalypse, what nonsense should we have in chapter 18:1-4; for in this case the fall of Babylon would be the overthrow and destruction of the city, in fact, its utter consumption by fire, according to verse 8. But mark what takes place after the fall. Babylon becomes a habitation of devils, the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. How can this happen to a city after that city is destroyed, even being utterly burned with fire? But worse still, after all this a voice is heard, saying, "Come out of her, my people." Are God's people in Rome? - Not to any great extent, even in her best estate. But how many can we suppose to be there, to be called out, after the city is burned with fire? It is not necessary to say more to show that Babylon cannot be the city of Rome. {1897 UrS, DAR 651.1}

3. Babylon signifies the universal worldly church. Having seen that it cannot be any one of the only other three possible objects to which it could be applied, it must mean this. But we are not left to this a priori kind of reasoning on this subject. Babylon is called a woman. A woman, used as a symbol, signifies a church. The woman of chapter 12 was interpreted to mean a church. The woman of chapter 17 should undoubtedly be interpreted as signifying also a church. The character of the woman determines the character of the church represented, a chaste woman standing for a pure church, a vile woman for an impure or apostate church. The woman Babylon is herself a harlot, and the mother of daughters like herself. This circumstance, as well as the name itself, shows that Babylon is not limited to any single ecclesiastical body, but must be composed of many. It must take in all of a like nature, and represent the entire corrupt or apostate church of the earth. This will perhaps explain the language of Rev. 18:24,
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which represents that when God makes requisition upon great Babylon for the blood of his martyrs, in her will be found "the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all" that have been slain upon the earth. The Greek Church is the established church of Russia and Greece; the Lutheran Church is the established church of Prussia, Holland, Sweden, Norway, and a part of the smaller German states; England has Episcopacy for her state religion, and other countries have their established religions, and zealously oppose dissenters. Babylon has made all nations drunken with the wine of her fornication, that is, her false doctrines; it can therefore symbolize nothing less than the universal worldly church. {1897 UrS, DAR 651.2}
The great city, Babylon, is spoken of as composed of three divisions. So the great religions of the world may be arranged under three heads. The first, oldest, and most wide-spread is paganism, separately symbolized under the form of a dragon; the second is the great Romish apostasy, symbolized by the beast; and the third is the daughters, or descendants from that church. Under this head comes the two-horned beast, though that does not embrace it all. War, oppression, conformity to the world, the worship of mammon, the creed-power, pursuit of pleasure, and the maintenance of very many errors of the old Romish Church, identify, with sad and faithful accuracy, the great body of the Protestant churches as an important constituent part of this great Babylon. {1897 UrS, DAR 652.1}

1. show me anywhere else in bible prophecy where a 'head' on a beast is another kingdom.

A demon became the central power in the world. Where God's throne should have been, Satan placed his throne. The world laid its homage, as a willing offering, at the feet of the enemy. {CT 33.1}
Satan became the avowed antagonist of Christ. On the earth he planted the standard of rebellion, and round it his sympathizers rallied (MS 78, 1905).
He seduced the people to bow to idols, and thus gain supremacy over earthly kingdoms. He considered that to be the god of this world was the next best thing to gaining possession of the throne of God in heaven. In a large measure he has been successful in his plans. {RH April 14, 1896)
Christ says: "Where Satan has set his throne, there shall stand My cross. Satan shall be cast out, and I will be lifted up to draw all men unto Me. (6T 347)

EVERY Protestant Expositor said the dragon in Revelation 12 represents Pagan Rome who tried to kill Jesus as a baby and nailed Him to the cross.

the Dragon IS NOT ROME.

The line of prophecy in which these symbols are found begins with Revelation 12, with the dragon that sought to destroy Christ at His birth. The dragon is said to be Satan (Revelation 12:9); he it was that moved upon Herod to put the Saviour to death. But the chief agent of Satan in making war upon Christ and His people during the first centuries of the Christian Era was the Roman Empire, in which paganism was the prevailing religion. Thus while the dragon, primarily, represents Satan, it is, in a secondary sense, a symbol of pagan Rome. {GC 438.2}

ROME is only a "secondary" application -- Rome is symbolized in the HEADS on the Dragon. Rome is part of the dragon, but Rome is NOT THE dragon.

Pagan Rome was the fourth "HEAD" of the dragon.
The dragon heads are symbolic of all the great earthly kingdoms that were directly used by Satan in his attempt to destroy God's people and the truth about God.
Satan's Babylonian kingdom starts with ancient Babylon and ends with mystic Babylon.
The first four heads all had their seat in paganism, but then the dragon gave THE PAGAN seat of his fourth head, to a "Christian" institution, which became his fifth head! Gave the pope even the Babylonian title as high priest and leader. The papal title Pontifex Maximus can be traced back in different forms to the ancient Babylon times.

In the sixth century the papacy had become firmly established. Its seat of power was fixed in the imperial city, and the bishop of Rome was declared to be the head over the entire church. Paganism had given place to the papacy. The dragon had given to the beast ?his power, and his seat, and great authority.? Revelation 13:2. And now began the 1260 years of papal oppression foretold in the prophecies of Daniel and the Revelation. {GC 54.2}

Dedication says: "To insist that the Dragon is Pagan Rome is to deny the definition the BIBLE gives to the dragon."

Ellen White said verbatim: "The dragon (pagan Rome) gave the beast (the church) his power (civil power), and seat (city of Rome), and great authority". {4SP 502.5}

The Bible definition:
Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth,

EGW mentions pagan Rome in A SECONDARY sense (not the primary but in a secondary sense)

Notice she gives the BIBLICAL definition FIRST.
"The dragon is said to be Satan; [Revelation 12:9.] he it was that moved upon Herod to put the Saviour to death. But the chief agent of Satan in making war upon Christ and his people during the first centuries of the Christian era, was the Roman Empire, in which paganism was the prevailing religion. Thus while the dragon, primarily, represents Satan, it is, in a secondary sense, a symbol of pagan Rome. {GC88 438.2}

EGW agrees -- The dragon is that old serpent, the Devil, Satan.


But in a secondary sense, yes, Rome is a chief identity through whom the dragon works --

Pagan Rome was in "headship position" or "chief agent" during the time of Christ's birth, Pagan Rome represent the dragon during that time period. But it's not the only time period Rev. 12 addresses in which the dragon works (that's why the dragon has seven heads-- seven powerful human kingdoms through whom he works)
Pagan Rome is a PART of the dragon, active in the first centuries of Christianity, but it is not the totality of the dragon himself.

And yes, the dragon through pagan roman (the fourth head) gave his seat to papal Rome (the fifth head).

EGW does not contradict the Bible, she fully recognizes that the Dragon is Satan.
I sincerely wish you could see, that what you are doing is trying to force me (and others) to say EGW contradicts scripture. But she does not.

That afternoon [November 2] he [Elder Bourdeau] had us accompany him to the Cathedral [in Valence, France] and look upon the bust of Pius VI who was noted in prophecy, who was led into captivity and died in captivity. Here was the one marked in history who received the deadly wound. His heart is encased in the marble monument beneath where the bust is located. We felt rather solemn as we looked upon the monument of this man noted in prophecy.?Letter 110, 1886, p. 2. (To W. C. White and wife, November 4, 1886.) {8MR 354.1}
Released June 21, 1978.

"...the controlling power in a state is the head of the state."
Uriah Smith p.19, Para. 1, [7 HEADS]

Where is your biblical precedence?

When The fourth beast of Daniel conquered Europe are the other beasts still on the stage? No, they are not. Every one of the previous beasts gets conquered. You have no idea what you are talking about.

"And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise." Daniel 2:40.

ALL of the previous beasts destroyed the beast before them. They don't just hand over the keys.



This is the ONLY transfer of power that was without a battle. The Dragon, PAGAN ROME, willingly hands the City of Seven hills to the Bishop of Rome who then becomes the HEAD of the beast.

And yes you did ridicule the Protestant Reformers saying that they didn't even read Revelation 12.

I think its always best in a theological debate to go by the scripture as it is the sure word of God..

Revelation 12:9

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Is this an SDA site? Or have I walked into a front for Catholics that claim to be SDA to lure others away from the Testimonies? I should ask you Theophilus, why are you not indignant? Are you comfortable living on this earth or do you want to go home? If we neglect the Testimonies what do they say will happen? How much blood do you want on your head?

Others call me the dragon and no one raises an objection, but post a picture that you object to and somehow I am the devil?

You have done nothing but judge.

RighteousnessBF: brother let me preface this by stating plainly that I do not know if your interpretation of Revelation is correct or not. I am no where near to being an eschatology expert. I have no doubt that each of of you in this discussion is far more knowledgeable on the topic. Perhaps, Francis is the last pope; perhaps, he is not. Either way, it is obvious to me that time is incredibly short.

I am blessed by the contributions of each person in this discussion. It is the strategy of Satan to cause these stressful times to set us against one and other, when we should be drawing closer to God and to each other, in love and fellowship. Did Jesus say, By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have skill in prophetic interpretation? No, He said:

"A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another."
"By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another."
John 13:34-35

RighteousnessBF, I have known most of the members on this thread for years. While, there have been times that we have disagreed, passionately, the majority are reasonable, honest, people. They are not hypocrites. They are not "whited sepulchres". Disagreeing with the opinion of another is not hypocritical.

Brother, I believe you have some genuine insights to share, and we need to hear them, as you with love, kindness, and patience need to hear the views of others. I beg you to share what you believe God has revealed with "love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: (for) against such there is no law."
Galatians 5:22-23