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The 'Common Good' versus Religious Liberty #194923
08/06/22 04:07 PM
08/06/22 04:07 PM
Rick H  Offline
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Group: Admin Team
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,100
Florida, USA
I have taken on the position of religious liberty at my church, so had to study up on it and prepare it for a sermon at the church...

"..It seems like the devil is using tactics which we never expected. Basically finding a way to take away the right to meet as group or congregation for a time, forcing everyone to follow government dictates on many levels, no matter our personal feeling on them, and overseeing and in some cases restricting our movement, even back from oversees. Talk about a reduction of our freedoms, privileges or power under the law, then certainly were in a word, ABRIDGED!

James Madison wrote: ?I believe there are more instances of the abridgement of freedom by gradual and silent enactments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations.? In Madison?s perspective here, he viewed gradual and subtle changes or enactments as the real threat and he was right. We see the America which was built on the trust of ?We the People? being unraveled through enactments of executive orders and our Constitutional rights have been stripped or reduced by actions of the world bodies of health or events of social chaos.

So what guarantees us our Religious Liberty in America? Well the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution says that everyone in the United States has the right to practice his or her own religion and guarantees freedoms concerning religion, expression, assembly, and the right to petition. It forbids Congress from promoting one religion over others and also restricting an individual's religious practices. As Seventh-day Adventists, religious liberty is an important part of our beliefs, especially in our history, and mission.

Now we consider ourselves law abiding citizens, however on one question, there is a higher standard, lets take a look at Acts 5:14-42..

14 And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women.)
15 Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them.
16 There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.
17 Then the high priest rose up, and all they that were with him, (which is the sect of the Sadducees,) and were filled with indignation,
18 And laid their hands on the apostles, and put them in the common prison.
19 But the angel of the Lord by night opened the prison doors, and brought them forth, and said,
20 Go, stand and speak in the temple to the people all the words of this life.
21 And when they heard that, they entered into the temple early in the morning, and taught. But the high priest came, and they that were with him, and called the council together, and all the senate of the children of Israel, and sent to the prison to have them brought.
22 But when the officers came, and found them not in the prison, they returned and told,
23 Saying, The prison truly found we shut with all safety, and the keepers standing without before the doors: but when we had opened, we found no man within.
24 Now when the high priest and the captain of the temple and the chief priests heard these things, they doubted of them whereunto this would grow.
25 Then came one and told them, saying, Behold, the men whom ye put in prison are standing in the temple, and teaching the people.
26 Then went the captain with the officers, and brought them without violence: for they feared the people, lest they should have been stoned.
27 And when they had brought them, they set them before the council: and the high priest asked them,
28 Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us.
29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
33 When they heard that, they were cut to the heart, and took counsel to slay them.
34 Then stood there up one in the council, a Pharisee, named Gamaliel, a doctor of the law, had in reputation among all the people, and commanded to put the apostles forth a little space;
35 And said unto them, Ye men of Israel, take heed to yourselves what ye intend to do as touching these men.
36 For before these days rose up Theudas, boasting himself to be somebody; to whom a number of men, about four hundred, joined themselves: who was slain; and all, as many as obeyed him, were scattered, and brought to nought.
37 After this man rose up Judas of Galilee in the days of the taxing, and drew away much people after him: he also perished; and all, even as many as obeyed him, were dispersed.
38 And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:
39 But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.
40 And to him they agreed: and when they had called the apostles, and beaten them, they commanded that they should not speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go.
41 And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name.
42 And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ.

The First Amendment Establishment Clause which prohibits the government from encouraging or promoting ("establishing") religion in any way is why we don't have an official religion of the United States. The Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment gives you the right to worship as you choose. The government can't penalize you because of your religious beliefs, or so we assumed.

But there was a way to get around this, that we had not foreseen or anticipated, which we quickly learned. The pandemic and the restrictions and actions arising on our freedoms were quite a shock to say nothing of the world events quickly evolving into wars and rumors of war, the shocking rise of costs and inflation and changes in peoples outlooks. One thing we have discovered is that a national ?shock? event opens up a nation for immediate social change. Politicians and even the government seem to be aware of this fact and during these ?events? have been able to make what formerly were seen as extreme changes for society in a blink of a eye, and even now seem to await the moment a disaster strikes for even more. We now see Presidential Executive orders and extreme changes and overreach rather than slow thought our laws from our representatives, as well as chaos brought on by Supreme Court rulings, and even proposed Constitutional changes as well as ways to negate the Court. Clearly the reach of these powers affect us as we see daily in the news and events. So, what we are seeing develop today is alterations or modification of our foundation or laws and society from so called ?crises? , pandemic, economic, even conflict. This definitely opens the doors for a ?transition? on many levels today, to a movement of a ?new world order? with all the nations joining to prevent even more or some ?future crisis?, and some ideas with a twist are being used to bring this to the forefront.

The question of ?Rights? and ?Common Good? are being raised and we are hearing from all quarters, that we must act for the ?Common Good?, rather than the rights and liberties we are so familiar with. We are facing a movement away from ?individual? rights to the ?Common Good?, and this loss of ?Rights? may, in time, affect both our freedoms and our religious freedoms.


But we must understand the relationship between the shift away from ?Rights? and to the ?ideal platform? being put forth and the power behind it, as we find a connection to the Encyclicals and Social policy of the Catholic Church which describes the ?Common Good? being brought to the forefront.

Now the ?Common Good? sounds like a good thing, and part of our Christian concept, after all, are we not our ?Brother?s Keeper?? But is there a difference in this idea from what is truly ?good? in Gods eyes. If we look, the term ?Common Good? has a long history in the Roman Catholic Church. The Catholic Church has issued many so called ?Encyclicals? related to Social Thought and Doctrine, such as this one of the ?Common Good?. No other government, political entity, or university has produced such a vast amount on the ideas. And we are beginning to see how the ?Common Good? policy of the Vatican, has had a affect in the US, to say nothing on the world.

What this ?common good? demands, however, may radically change our future personal and religious freedoms. The idea being put forward is that ?Common Good? social policies will work, however ?Individual rights? will have to be dramatically altered and will bring tremendous social, economic and religious changes, even here in the ?land of the free?.

One of the changes is being put forth which we?ve heard much is the setting aside of a day reduce the carbon footpring, to help climate change, or give rest for the workers. Pope Francis recently spoke out in defense of Sunday as the traditional day of rest and relaxation for Catholics and pushed for further discussions in the European Union about laws restricting required work and commercial activity on Sundays. The Pope emphasized the ?social benefits? of not working on Sunday and not referenced religious reasons. The news also reported that he said that not working on Sundays was an "ethical choice" for both believers and non-believers, so its supposedly to be for the good of all.

So we are seeing how the social turmoil, climate debate, and the pandemic is being exploited in order to pass changes in the laws and create a one world government, with of course the Pope at the center of the resulting global order.

The Popes encyclical stated...
"the purpose of this encyclical is to promote the progressive emergence of a new anthropological (study of humankind) world order based on a cosmopolitan morality and the holistic existence of a human family which transcends all kind of social, ethnical and national differences.

Apart from individual moral considerations, the pope brings to the fore a new ethics for international relations. It is stated that a new global political order is to be established based on the principles of subsidiarity, rule of law and a renewed trust in international cooperation.?

However its much more than what is on the surface, as the encyclical ideas being advocated have some of the following points....
1. A Global Government. The pope is calling for a "true world political authority" to fix the problems that plague the world. (Part 67)

2. Church and State. The pope says this new political authority will make its decisions based on spiritual values. (Chapter 5) (Religious freedom does not mean religious indifferentism, nor does it imply that all religions are equal [133]. Discernment is needed regarding the contribution of cultures and religions, especially on the part of those who wield political power, if the social community is to be built up in a spirit of respect for the common good. - an extract from this chapter)

3. The Papacy at the Head (Implied). These spiritual values cannot be derived from just any religion, since not "all religions are equal." (Part 55)

4. Religion, Politics and the Economy. The church must influence all areas of society since God must have "a place in the public realm, specifically in regard to its cultural, social, economic, and particularly its political dimensions." (Part 56)

5. Power to Enforce Law. This "political authority" must have "real teeth" and "be vested with the effective power" to enforce its laws around the world. (Part 67)

6. Control Buying and Selling. The new world governing power will institute socialistic policies for government to redistribute wealth. (Chapter 3) (Last sentence from chapter - In this way it will be possible to experience and to steer the globalization of humanity in relational terms, in terms of communion and the sharing of goods.)

7. Resurgence of Labor Unions. Labor Unions are to be empowered to "play a decisive role" in the new world order. (Part 25)

8. The Church's Goal. Pope Benedict says that this encyclical is to help achieve "The goal of the history of the human family"? to build "the universal city of God." (Part 7)

9. Redefining Religious Liberty. While claiming not "to interfere in any way in the politics of States," the pope redefines "liberty" as happening when the world obeys laws shaped by the Roman Church's spiritual values. According to the pope, as the church influences states to enforce its view of "truth" on others, people are set "free." "This mission of truth is something that the Church can never renounce." (Part 9)

10 Immortal Souls. The non-biblical belief that man has an immortal soul helps to insure the pope's global agenda. "Man is ...God's creature, whom God chose to endow with an immortal soul."

So who decides what is ?good?? Lets turn to Matthew 19:17, Jesus tells us, ?there is none good but one, that is, God.? Man howwever thinks to do what he thinks is good according what they think is good.

Lets turn to John 11:49, 50... We find how this was twisted by the Jewish leaders when Christ was sent His death, supposedly for that good, by Caiaphas, the head religious leader in his day who decleared to his colleagues, ?Ye know nothing at all, nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man [Christ] should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not? (John 11:49, 50).

And today we are similarly being flooded with these ideas about ?the common good.? And as we see, the quest for the Common Good and the ideas we being pushed to in Climate Change as it relates to Sunday Worship being connected and brought out in the world agenda..."


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPgbSPsd5AY

Re: The 'Common Good' versus Religious Liberty [Re: Rick H] #194924
08/08/22 01:12 AM
08/08/22 01:12 AM
Kevin H  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 625
New York
WOW!!! Powerful!!! We are living at a time like never before. catholic Europe (yes, small "c") your religion was based on where you lived, whether Muslim, The different Eastern Orthodox religions, Western or Roman Catholic, which eventually divided into Roman Catholic and Reformed Roman Catholic (Protestant). Small pockets of Jews. If you wanted to be the wrong religion in your part of the world you could be persecuted and even killed.

Much of the immigration to the New World was to get a piece of land for their religions. But then Roger Williams got a radical idea; liberty of conscience. When William Penn tried to form a Quaker state, but couldn't get enough Quakers, so he decided to follow Roger William's liberty of conscience. When Jefferson became President, people feared that he was going to take the Bibles away. However, the church soon discovered that Jefferson/Madison's religious freedom and separation of church and state gave the church more freedom that it ever experienced before. There was an open market for ideas, including religious views, and individuals were able to choose which one made the most sense to them.

Jefferson/Madison's ideas became more radical as the age of Jackson applied it to the common [white] man, with a woman having the ability to improve their role in society even if they had a bad start. This increased people wondering if freedom was for only the while man, and if women can only reach the glass ceiling of "respectability". Why not true equality for all. The US has been kicking and screaming as the Williams, Jefferson/Madison via the age of Jackson has been both embraced and fought against. Fredric Douglas, Hariot Tubman, Sojourner Truth, eventually Abraham Lincoln came from this. William Miller was among the Americans who were influenced by this, then Joachim of Flor's historism jumped the pond from an Adventist movement in England (which Isaac Newton was a member). and the American views of Freedom welded with Joachim's historism and became near and dear to our hearts as Millerism. Joachim, Williams, Jefferson/Madison, through the age of Jackson are probably just as important in our faith as Miller. Had any one of these not lived Adventism would look much different.

When John Kennedy was running for office, people in general held the view of freedom that grew out of Williams, Jefferson/Madison via age of Jackson, and they were worried about a Catholic President. JFK gave a short but powerful speech on the difference between being a candidate who worships in his church as opposed to being his church's candidate, thus showing that he understood the views of freedom that we inherited. I don't care if the President or any other politician or justice happen to be Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, even Atheist/secular human or any other religion if they knew what Kennedy knew about the difference between holding their office and worshiping as they choose, and those who try to do what we were afraid Kennedy would do, but he was wise enough to be aware of and choose against: using office to push their religion.

Today people have forgotten Rogers, Jefferson/Madison via the age of Jackson, and Kennedy. Today people are using their office to force their faith on to the country. One party has been trying to make us catholic Europe. Extremes in the other party are trying to make us French Revolution Europe. Both have forgotten a little something called the American Revolution. If they could see the country now, Rogers, Jefferson, Madison, Jackson, Ellen White, and Kennedy would roll over in their graves. The influence of these Americans made a special connection to Seventh-day Adventism. We are told that the nation will forget what these people did. What they did made the United States the most Christlike nation in history. Even Maryland, which started as a Catholic state did something in their original settlement that you would not find in Europe. They had the government buildings and school on one side of town, then the homes, and the church was on the complete opposite side of town. Today, this has become mostly forgotten as we have the two religions of Evangelical Christianity vs. Secular Humanism fighting to become our state religion.

Mrs. White writes about the crisis at the end on two levels. One is the specific application of Sunday Laws (and our tradition has filled in the gaps) but she also writes on the larger principle of liberty of conscience for all (which we fortunately have an auto correct on the nerves that lead from the eyes and ears to the brain to automatically change these statements to specifically "Sunday Laws") . As we face secularism or enforced religion, the Sabbath, which is the cultic sign of worshiping God as the creator, and the character of freedom in Christ, will become the vehicle for the final test for the Christian world. Mrs. White seems to be open to other ways for the test to come to others. (I'm wondering if in the Middle East there will be the test of sharing the land and willing to respect liberty of conscience, or the fights for "Greater Israel" or "Greater Palestine" And even outside of Israel, you have sub groups who believe that they are the true version of Islam and the party that will be on top with everyone else submitting to them.) If we only focus on "Sunday Laws" we can form a "We are better than them" We can form a spirit of "Yes, you may use government and the courts and punishments to enforce Sunday laws, but I have a higher government, a higher court and a worst punishment (hell) to enforce the Sabbath." The issue is not who has the stronger power. But as we look at the principle of liberty of conscience, then we will both be ready for Sunday Laws, preach the Sabbath more fully, avoid plans Satan is working on to use our Sunday law traditions against us, and respect and reach people where they are. While we see an important part in these events being the Sabbath/Sunday issue. When we deal with the bigger issue of liberty of conscience, we can reach out to all in a way to help prepare for what is coming, even if it comes in a different application to different people.

Lois Eggers developed what she called "Common Sense Psychology" based on her study of the Bible, Mrs. White and other sources. One illustration she developed was "The Principle House". This is going to be very important in the eschaton. One principle is the principle of submission: are we going to submit to what we believe the Lord to teach (and here Sabbath vs Sunday will play a big role as the evidence is clearly for Sabbath). But will I submit to the law of God as I understand it. The second part are a number of principles on non-use of force and individuality. In the eschaton, the crisis will force everyone to cooperate in a way where everyone has to give up a point of conscience, and/or where everyone is encouraged to force others to comply. A question for us is "Can I respect the choice of someone who may or may not see the Sabbath as I do to have the freedom to follow their understanding and to leave their understanding between them and God?"

Rick H. You have a sacred office. You are off to a good start. Be careful to include both levels that Mrs. White wrote on. Look into Rogers, Jefferson/Madison, the age of Jackson, and Kennedy gave only a short speech, this thought just entered my mind, but it might be a wise idea for us, all of us, to memorize that speech, at least have copy of it hanging around.

Re: The 'Common Good' versus Religious Liberty [Re: Rick H] #194926
08/08/22 12:11 PM
08/08/22 12:11 PM
Daryl  Offline

Site Administrator
23000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,118
Nova Scotia, Canada
It's too bad that there wasn't any audio until about 4 minutes into the video message.

We haven't watched it yet, but plan to watch it this evening.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: The 'Common Good' versus Religious Liberty [Re: Rick H] #194928
08/08/22 10:59 PM
08/08/22 10:59 PM
dedication  Offline
Global Moderator
Supporting Member 2022

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,411
Canada
A lot of people are saying that we need to defend our democracy . But the freedom of religion is not a democratic principle. Democracy supports mob rule not minority protection . In a democracy if 53% vote for something it can be enforced. Whatever is consider the common good can become law. America is built as a republic nation. The principles of a republic protects minority rights, It was americas republican principles that brought the freedoms

Re: The 'Common Good' versus Religious Liberty [Re: Daryl] #194929
08/12/22 07:33 PM
08/12/22 07:33 PM
Rick H  Offline
OP
Group: Admin Team
3000+ Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,100
Florida, USA
Originally Posted by Daryl
It's too bad that there wasn't any audio until about 4 minutes into the video message.

We haven't watched it yet, but plan to watch it this evening.
It seems that when you have some truth to give, there is always roadblocks that the devil throws out to make you stumble. I decided to just go forward and wait for the sound techs to rectify the issue, which they did pretty quickly. Have to expect the unexpected and keep going onward in these cases...

Re: The 'Common Good' versus Religious Liberty [Re: dedication] #194930
08/13/22 05:37 PM
08/13/22 05:37 PM
Kevin H  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 625
New York
Originally Posted by dedication
A lot of people are saying that we need to defend our democracy . But the freedom of religion is not a democratic principle. Democracy supports mob rule not minority protection . In a democracy if 53% vote for something it can be enforced. Whatever is consider the common good can become law. America is built as a republic nation. The principles of a republic protects minority rights, It was americas republican principles that brought the freedoms

Excellent


Moderator  dedication, Rick H 

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