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Re: Can someone please explain to me about Progressive Adventism? [Re: Daryl] #194911
07/26/22 01:49 AM
07/26/22 01:49 AM
dedication  Offline
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Originally Posted by Daryl
In what group would you place The GC President, Elder Ted Wilson?


That question kind of shows the folly of putting people into "groups".

The members for women's ordination would surely put him in "traditional" group.
The ones wanting "progressive ideas" adopted in the church also would place him in the "traditional group".

Yet there are others who see him as "progressive"

Re: Can someone please explain to me about Progressive Adventism? [Re: TheophilusOne] #194917
07/30/22 11:59 PM
07/30/22 11:59 PM
Kevin H  Offline
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Indeed, there is folly of putting people into groups. Often you can find people who one some topics are on one point, and a different point on another topic.

However, Satan is trying to put people into groups; whether religious or politics, trying to make each group agree on a specific set of ideas. He is going to use these groups to lead us to mass deception.

God has given us the ability to think and to do. I'd be seen as very conservative for believing in the Investigative Judgment, but liberal for being an anti-fundamentalist. I honestly believe that the Bible does teach women's ordination, but my belief comes from a very conservative approach to Bible Study. I describe myself as generally speaking a little left of center but with very, very jagged edges going out to both sides. We should all be in a generally here but with very, very jagged edges group.

dedication, I think you gave an excellent answer to Daryl's question about Elder Wilson. I can't add to your words.

Last edited by Kevin H; 07/31/22 12:31 AM.
Re: Can someone please explain to me about Progressive Adventism? [Re: dedication] #194918
07/31/22 12:29 AM
07/31/22 12:29 AM
Kevin H  Offline
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Originally Posted by dedication
It seems that putting people into these supposed three "groups"isn't really fair.

Evangelical traditionalists, basically throw out everything that doesn't fit into the evangelical way of thinking. Though they hold the Sabbath (in much the same way evangelicals hold Sunday), they strip it of Adventist beliefs, etc. They aren't "progressive Adventists", they are retreating back and limiting themselves to reformation theology.

A.F Ballenger is an example of that type of reasoning. I'm sure he would say he was still holding the "pillar" sanctuary doctrine, but his misguided Bible study brought in changes that undermined that pillar. The theological foundations for our "pillars" were NOT haphazardly built by our pioneers. Brother Ballenger, even with his perceived discoveries of Bible facts, wasn?t wise to step off it. Though some might think he was "progressive".

EGW wrote: Brother Ballenger: "You are bringing in confusion and perplexity by your interpretation of the Scriptures. You think that you have been given new light, but your light will become darkness to those who receive it" (Manuscript Releases 760, p. 10).

Adventist Traditionalists?

Anyone who is a true seeker of God's Word will EXPAND their understanding. The Bible continually brings new insights and depth to our understanding.
That is as it should be.
Yet these advances should not challenge the pillars and should be advanced into only with much prayer and bible study. We see Jones and Waggoner expanding the churches understanding of righteousness by faith. This was sorely needed. We see the church moving from a "pagan" understanding of the "continual" in Daniel 8, to seeing the "continual" as Christ our high priest continually mediating for His people. Thus bringing verse 14 more fully into the context with the whole chapter speaking of the sanctuary. We also see the earlier concept of Christ as a created divine Being changing to a realization that Christ is fully God, One with the Father.

Yes there are some who resist these ideas. But these ideas don't undermine the pillars or change the pillars, they enhance them and make them more precious.



But what do you mean by "accepting the pillars" yet apparently redefining them.

Of particular concern is redefining the prophecies, especially the ones upon which the pillars are built.


Also an excellent post and made things clearer. The "Evangelical Traditionalists" are very much stuck where Bible Study was in the 1500s and seeing Reformation Theology as the climax of Bible Study.

The rest of us are hopefully a tapestry on continuing study. There are different variations between were we as individuals are in a blend of pre-1888 and post 1888 understanding. We have strong Fundamentalists, Anti-Fundamentalists, those who believe that hell fire is the basic Catholic/Baptist hell only short and ends. Others believe that "Hell Fire" is God revealing himself in all his beauty, love, and glory and treats everyone the same, but that there are two different responses. Some of us believe that last generation perfection is of a different quality than any other generation based on a list of dos and don'ts of Adventist traditions, while others of us believe that there have been a small group of every generation who have developed such love and trust in Jesus that nothing could shake their faith. And that the last generation perfection is a difference in the quantity who develop this trust. Others don't believe in anything special in the last generation. Mrs. White gave warnings about "fiction" and the "novel". Some apply this to all fiction, others point out that Mrs. White was one voice among many, including Nathaniel Hawthorne, and Herman Melville about a specific type of literature. Similar with her comments about William Shakespeare; some take it to mean we should have nothing to do with Shakespeare, while others note that people who were working with Mrs. White on this topic in our schools moved Shakespeare from the focus and heart of study and moved his works to the English Department and Saturday night programs, while job training became the focus and heart of study. We all, in different amounts and on different points are on a continuum between what has traditionally been taught, and additional evidence we are getting from archaeology and linguistic studies. Some hold to traditional understandings of proof texts that we think are very clear about where the Bible stands on some issues, while others notice that the context around these verses may not support the tradition. Some do not see us as the remnant church. Among those of us who do, there is a continuum from those who believe that everyone needs to join our church, to those who sees the role of the remnant to minister to others and play a pastoral role helping others see truths they have but may not have noticed and help people where they are and to encourage growth even if they don't join the remnant church. Some down play Sunday laws, Others see sunday laws as effecting every single person, and others point out that we see Mrs. White writing on two levels, one a principle that can be applied beyond Sunday laws, but also the specific application to Sunday Laws and while not as clear as our traditions spell them out to be, that Sabbath/Sunday with at least the potential for Sunday Laws will play a major role in the Christian world. Etc. We have a lot of room for discussion. We have a lot of room for listening, and we have a lot of room to use our God given ability to listen to the evidence and do our honest best to be fair to the weight of the evidence, share what we understand, give an answer for where we are, but to allow others to be in different locations in our study and growth than I am.


We also have a subgroup who belong to an "aint it awful club" who seem to think that the gospel is the good news that the church is going to hell in a handbasket. (I remember once seeing one of these "Church is going to hell in a handbasket" publications where they had in one column had a story about the significance and importance of the color "Red" in the Catholic Church. The next article was that Loma Linda was going to work with the community Red Ribbon Week" -- which is for drug prevention and education.) Of course there is always the story about the man who was praying for the Lord to deliver James White from his pride. When James asked him about it, the man said that it is because James was wearing a shirt with a collar. James pointed out that his clothes got muddy so he barrowed the shirt.

We need to study the Bible. We need to listen to the evidence for the different points and trust in the Lord to think and to do, and that God is flexible enough for people who love and trust him but are in different levels of understanding.


Last edited by Kevin H; 07/31/22 01:21 AM.
Re: Can someone please explain to me about Progressive Adventism? [Re: TheophilusOne] #194919
07/31/22 07:50 PM
07/31/22 07:50 PM
Kevin H  Offline
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There are ways where labeling or grouping is useful. But some of the least useful include liberal or conservative. On the one hand the term "liberal" when it comes to religion can apply to those who see the Bible as basically a human book, not really, if at all inspired, and that if there is a God he is not active. But we also apply the term "liberal" to Adventists who are attracted to the ideas of the 1500s in Reformation Theology, and "Conservative" to those who are attracted to ideas of the 1800s. Yet both groups tend to be very conservative in their belief that the Bible is inspired and that God is active with life on earth.

Another bad label is the term "New Theology" I have found about 4 very different ideas that get labeled as "New Theology". I used to freely use the term in talking about the views of Desmond Ford and others who are attracted to Reformation Theology of the 1500s. But then I learned three other uses of the term: Now, I don't know which one of these two applications of the term came first, but in the late 1800s and early 1900s the term was both used in the Seventh-day Adventist Church for the ideas of Mrs. White after the 1888 General Conference, and how they affected people such as A. G. Daniels, W. W. Prescott and Willie White. In the same time period it was used both inside and outside of Adventism for on the one hand embracing "fundamentalism" and rejecting those who questioned the inspiration of the Bible, who used higher criticism exclusively and used this to chop up the Bible and question if the Bible is supposed to be so inspired, why the different writing styles? Some Seventh-day Adventists did group the post 1888 views of Mrs. White with these :"liberal" theologians. The third way was the first way I heard the term and freely used it in talking about ideas of Desmond Ford and other reformation theology people. But when I learned that the term was used for Mrs. White's post 1888 teachings it turned from a bad term to a "Hey, how is it used" and I'd consider myself "New Theology" in how it was used for Mrs. White's post 1888 work. Then the fourth way of using the phrase "New Theology" has simply been used by people to haphazardly label anyone who's ideas they disagree with, no matter where in the spectrum of Adventism, or even Christianity as a whole the people may be.

So "New Theology" means: The theology that only uses higher criticism and doubts the historicity and inspiration of the Bible. Or it could mean the things Mrs. White focused on after the 1888 General Conference and how they were applied and developed by Willie, Prescott and Daniels among others. Or it could mean Desmond Ford and similar ideas. Or it could mean "Anything that I don't like."

There are other terms and groupings that can describe ideas, and where it is more useful is like in studying psychology and seeing the 4 temperament styles (including how they can blend into each other) and how those of one primary temperament relates to the other temperaments. Also grouping what your love language is, and likewise what your apology language is. (We usually are born with a primary and secondary of each. We need to be aware of the other three in each catagory; and also knowing your love and apology languages can help us understand ourselves and each others better. And the different attachment styles (I have mostly covered the 5/6 styles defined by Mylan and Kay Yerkovich). These groupings define things that we generally do, think and interact, and thus knowing your temperaments, your love languages, your apology languages, and your attachment style, and learn about the ones you don't tend to fit in, and how we relate to each other. And these are more specific definitions than what we find in the terms of "Liberal" and "Conservative" or "New Theology".

But sometimes the terms "liberal" and "conservative" can give a a sense as to how traditional people can be. For example, and I don't know how or why this happened, but when I compare Willie White with his son Arthur White, Willie appears to be much more "liberal" with his son being far more "conservative". But this is more of a comparison with each other, as Willie certainly was not a "liberal" theologian" in a lack of belief in inspiration.

This thread is a very useful thread in discussing and understanding each other better. But we need to be leery in how cloudy the terms "liberal" and "conservative" can be, and that the term "New Theology" is completely useless.

Re: Can someone please explain to me about Progressive Adventism? [Re: TheophilusOne] #194943
08/25/22 11:00 PM
08/25/22 11:00 PM
Kevin H  Offline
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I learned some more about this topic that I hope to come back and share, and to summarize Elder Valentine's book. It is an excellent book; filled in many of the gaps in my study.

While this is not directly a part of this thread, it is related; it discusses a breakdown between two valid styles of Bible study. Each has their strong and weak points, and should not be used with the mindset of one is right the other wrong, or that one is better than the other.

First is what we call the "Proof Text" method. It is where we look at the texts and try to come to a conclusion as to what the Bible teaches. The second, I did not notice him giving a name to it. But it is where you take more time to get a fuller context of the text and build on this in a slower way.

Now, away from what he says here, I'd like to put in my two cents worth. In colleges they describe the two appropriate ways to study the Bible as either systematic theology and Biblical theology. Systematic Theology tries to get an overview of what the Bible teaches on a particular topic.

Biblical Theology, was mostly formed by William Foxwell Albright, although it has roots in archeologists and the Biblical geography work of Edward Robinson in the 1839s. looks at what a specific part of the Bible is trying to teach us, with a lot of focus on the historical, cultural, geographic etc. context. Usually when someone decides to become a college Bible professor they have a preference for either one or the other. It is rare to find someone who really likes to use both methods, even though they respect the findings of each other. This second view in Elder Pauline's blog to me sounds like a combination of both systematic and Biblical theology, and there is certainly nothing wrong with that. The next post are the words of Dr. Pauline from his "John Pauline's blog, https://revelation-armageddon.com/summary-of-the-two-hermeneutics/

Re: Can someone please explain to me about Progressive Adventism? [Re: Kevin H] #194944
08/25/22 11:04 PM
08/25/22 11:04 PM
Kevin H  Offline
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Originally Posted by Jon Pauline Blog
There are in fact two basic hermeneutics (the science of biblical interpretation) in the Adventist Church, but both of them can be useful, it is not a matter of right and wrong. One of these is sometimes called the ?proof-text method.? More people today think of it as taking the Bible as it reads, or taking it literally. It involves using a concordance to select passages from all over the Bible that seem to address a particular topic and attempting to understand their collective weight in light of current questions and concerns. At its best this method is a form of biblical theology, gathering everything the Bible says on a topic and seeking to learn from that data how to understand the mind of God on that topic. This method has been used within the Adventist Church from its very beginning and is quite efficient in quickly exposing biblical evidence related to a topic. At its worst, however, it is a powerful way to pick and choose one?s evidence and confirm preconceived opinions. The selective method without exegetical (careful understanding of the original context) controls makes it too easy for one?s personal biases to determine what texts count as evidence and which ones don?t.

The other hermeneutic is grounded less in concordances and more in broad reading of Scripture. One explores the Bible as a whole, taking it book by book and seeking to understand the questions the Bible writers were addressing and the issues they were facing. The interpreter recognizes that God meets people where they are (there is plenty of Scriptural evidence for that assertion? see the opening chapter of my book Everlasting Gospel, Everchanging World), so the teaching at any given point in the Bible may not be a final word on all related issues, but may be a specific answer to a specific issue in that time and place. Understanding the meaning of each text in its context is crucial to developing a biblical theology that can address today?s issues. At its best this method takes the whole Bible and its original contexts into account. It helps us discern what is clear in God?s revelation and what is not. It avoids the selectivity of the proof-text method and provides safeguards against our natural human biases. But this method also has its limitations. Few people have the desire or the time to master the Bible as a whole. Even for those who do, the process is lengthy and subject to human forgetfulness. In addition, understanding the context of each biblical story and message is best served by knowing the biblical languages and a great deal about ancient history and culture. This makes it easy to leave deep Bible study to the experts, who may become our authorities on what the Bible says rather than allowing every member to do their own diligence in the Word. In addition, projecting the ?trajectory? of what God is doing in this world is often necessary, but it too introduces a human element into the process that can project trajectories God Himself might not recognize. So this method is not a fool-proof answer to all questions when the church is divided.

I have used both methods and see that there are strengths and weaknesses in each. A healthy church will not be limited in its approaches. But the outcome of my decades of study in hermeneutics indicates to me that God has not chosen to satisfy our curiosity about all matters in His Word. At creation God granted human beings intellect, reason and considerable freedom. Such freedom is best exercised when we don?t know the answer to everything. God calls us to sharpen our minds by wrestling with the difficult issues that He has chosen not to settle. So when the church, after years of study, remains divided on a question, humility and kindness are the appropriate response. Everyone agrees that the Bible is clear on how we should treat one another. What a shame it would be if we hammer others on things that in the Bible are not truly clear, while transgressing those teachings of the Bible that all agree are clear.

But the natural human tendency to see what we want to see means that people will tend to gravitate to one or another of these methods and end up disagreeing on what the Bible is actually saying. We become more in love with what we think the Bible is teaching than with the Bible itself. Is there a way to study the Bible that bypasses some of our natural prejudices and helps us seriously learn from the Bible itself? Is there a method that is simple enough and clear enough for all to understand and follow? Stay tuned.

Re: Can someone please explain to me about Progressive Adventism? [Re: TheophilusOne] #194951
08/28/22 01:40 PM
08/28/22 01:40 PM
dedication  Offline
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Be careful -- be sure you are not progressing into the merging spiritual movement and away from the foundational anchors of our church. I agree with Jon Pauline's cautions, indeed we need to carefully consider the context of texts used and be serious Bible students.

There just seems to be so many winds blowing now a days. In my experience I've been in company with people who have told me we don't study the bible aright (too much proof texting they say) then they give me a supposed example of right study by bringing ONE text and insist we spend considerable time studying that text in its context, but they were explaining it according to their idea of what the "context" is saying. And then they take that one text and try to disprove every other text that speaks on the same subject, in order to change a whole belief system (without considering the context of those other texts and how they all fit together to give the true picture) Basically using one "problem" text, to debunk all those other clear texts.

Psychology has effective methods to change the paradigm of belief of people?
There are documented statements that powerful forces have plans to change the foundational beliefs of groups of people who stand in the way of the merging spiritual movement?????

We need to be careful!!! Experience with people who claim to be "progressive" has many of us worried. Where is this "progression" leading?

One effective way that is often used to change the whole paradigm of belief is as follows:

1. Emphases confusion within the group, emphasis all the points where there may be some questions in which they don't agree, and really high-light where leadership may a have slightly different view point. Bring in lots of confusion till people wonder what they really believe and start DOUBTING. In other words break apart the foundation. Infuse DOUBT. Then fill the vacuum with new theology.

2. Make it seem like the leadership is all behind the changes. (And some of them may well be)

3. Make it seem like the old foundations need a lot of new timbers and a total restructuring.

4. Then lead into paths which will fit into the merging spiritual movement?



Last edited by dedication; 08/28/22 05:32 PM.
Re: Can someone please explain to me about Progressive Adventism? [Re: TheophilusOne] #194954
08/30/22 05:20 PM
08/30/22 05:20 PM
dedication  Offline
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The world is changing. The world view of many is changing.
In what ways do the new views of the world and of man affect Christian theology and beliefs?
Does it change the timeless truths which have been revealed by God?

When we look around and hear theologians, scientists and others expounding on spiritual truths, we must admit that there are new views of the Bible in scholarly and religious circles today, a new view of the world-- including its beginnings and nature, a new view of the destiny and purpose of man, and even new views of God as well as of sin and evil.
Shouldn't we be opening our eyes to the new world which is fast emerging around us?
How we view these things will also influence how we understand the Bible.

Of interest is to realize that in 1844
around the time the three angels' messages began to be proclaimed.
Several "counter movements" also began.
These counter movements are in direct opposition to the three angels' messages.

Namely these two:
-- evolution --
which puts a whole different spin on subjects such as creation, and a God Who created all things perfect. Everything changes meaning when evolution is accepted: sin, progression (saying mankind is progressing rather than regressing from their origin) the need and purpose of Christ's life and death, salvation, the future, the value of life and even if there is a God.

--spiritualism --
which comes in many forms, but primarily bases truth on experience, and feelings rather than doctrines or theology. The belief in spirits that influence people, even spirits of the dead. It tends to accept the concept of evolution and progression of mankind evolving into a superhuman level with a new consciousness. It is a form of pantheism -- acknowledgment of an essentially divine nature of each individual.
In many ways this movement can sound good -- healthful living to "heal oneself" love for all in a converging humanity.

But consider the message God has given in the three angels' messages and the fourth angel (Rev. 18) which amplifies the messages in Rev. 14.


Revelation 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues
.

Re: Can someone please explain to me about Progressive Adventism? [Re: TheophilusOne] #194977
09/07/22 03:26 AM
09/07/22 03:26 AM
dedication  Offline
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The term "new theology" is often connected with the term "progressive Adventists"
Usually used as a negative .

Since the term "new theology" has appeared in several threads, I'm going to attempt to describe what is generally meant by that term.
Obviously "new theology" is not necessarily new to the bigger Christian sphere of theology, as many points that have been termed "new theology" have been known in the Christian world previously. The applications in 1955 to Froome's group, the application made to Ford and people similar to him -- were addressing issues that weren't new in the broader Christian world.

So what is NEW THEOLOGY considered to be in basic Adventism?

First what is basic Adventist theology?
It is built on seven "pillars"
--Salvation in Christ, righteousness of Christ.
--Seventh-day Sabbath is the sanctified Day of the Lord and memorial of His Creation
--Sanctuary in heaven, where Christ is high priest, and the hour of judgment has begun. Includes the ark of the covenant which contains the ten commandments.
--Soul sleep --dead are really dead and remain dead until the resurrection, when they will rise,
--Second coming of Christ, all eyes will see Him, earth will be left desolate, saved dead raised and all redeemed go to heaven with Christ for 1000 years, after which they return to earth, earth is made new.
--Spirit of Prophecy, the prophetic gift given by God to reveal present truth.
--The personality of God. He is not some divine essence floating around He is a distinct "person". "Christ is one with the Father, yet Christ and God are two distinct personages."

An eighth that could also be included:
--Treating our bodies as the temple of the Holy Spirit (healthy living for God's glory)

NEW THEOLOGY is a term used when people come within Adventism with theological reasoning and doctrines that diminish or undermine one or more of those "pillars".

Quote
I was shown a platform, braced by solid timbers--the truths of the Word of God. Someone high in responsibility in the work was directing this man and that man to loosen the timbers supporting this platform. Then I heard a voice saying, "Where are the watchmen that ought to be standing on the walls of Zion? Are they asleep? This foundation was built by the Master Worker, and will stand storm and tempest. Will they permit this man to present doctrines that deny the past experience of the people of God? The time has come to take decided action." {1SM 204.1}
The enemy of souls has sought to bring in the supposition that a great reformation was to take place among Seventh-day Adventists, and that this reformation would consist in giving up the doctrines which stand as the pillars of our faith, and engaging in a process of reorganization. Were this reformation to take place, what would result? The principles of truth that God in His wisdom has given to the remnant church, would be discarded. Our religion would be changed. The fundamental principles that have sustained the work for the last fifty years would be accounted as error 1 SM 204.2.

Those who try to bring in theories that would remove the pillars of our faith concerning the sanctuary or concerning the personality of God or of Christ are working as blind men. They are seeking to bring in uncertainties and to set the people of God adrift without an anchor (Manuscript Release 760, pp. 10


Thus Canright came out with "new theology".
Ballenger came with his "new theology".
Kellogg as well.
And there were others.
The men in 1955, like Froom were accused of bringing in "new theology".
Yes, Ford fits the description as well.
But there are many others.

New theology is not limited to a movement or man. Adventists use the term "new theology" as a negative,
Usaully as any theology that is pushed in Adventism which diminishes or erodes the "pillar doctrines".

Re: Can someone please explain to me about Progressive Adventism? [Re: TheophilusOne] #194984
09/10/22 05:15 PM
09/10/22 05:15 PM
Daryl  Offline

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If this is what Progressive Adventism is trying to accomplish, then I would stay clear of them, as we seem to be doing to those caught up in the teachings of Shepherd's Rod.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

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by Rick H. 03/24/24 06:50 PM
Time Is Short!
by Rick H. 03/24/24 06:45 PM
Climate Change and the Sunday Law
by Rick H. 03/24/24 06:42 PM
WHAT IS THE VERY END-TIME PROPHECY?
by Rick H. 03/23/24 06:03 PM
Digital Identity Control
by Rick H. 03/23/24 02:08 PM
A.I. - The New God?
by Rick H. 03/23/24 01:59 PM
Christian Nationalism/Sunday/C
limate Change

by ProdigalOne. 03/16/24 08:38 PM
Perils of the Emerging Church Movement
by Rick H. 03/16/24 06:30 PM
Is There A Connection Between WO & LGBTQ?
by Kevin H. 03/12/24 09:20 PM
A Second American Civil War?
by Daryl. 03/04/24 06:14 PM
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