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Re: Can someone please explain to me about Progressive Adventism? [Re: TheophilusOne] #194988
09/11/22 12:44 AM
09/11/22 12:44 AM
dedication  Online Content

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Posts: 5,703
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The problem with labels is that not all who consider themselves "progressive" fall into that camp.
We all need to study to find deeper and fuller meanings in scripture, which progressives say is their goal.
However, it is a sad fact that many "progressives" do undermine, and weaken the pillar doctrines.

Re: Can someone please explain to me about Progressive Adventism? [Re: Daryl] #194992
09/13/22 05:33 PM
09/13/22 05:33 PM
Kevin H  Online Content
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 538
New York
Originally Posted by Daryl
If this is what Progressive Adventism is trying to accomplish, then I would stay clear of them, as we seem to be doing to those caught up in the teachings of Shepherd's Rod.


Don't forget, in Adventist history, one definition of "New Theology" were the post 1888 views of Mrs. White, and some in her circle such as Willie (A mystery I don't understand is how he was seen as so liberal, yet his son Arthur very conservative). A. G. Daniels, W. W. Prescott. In the next generation people like Lynn Harper Wood, and Dr. Thiele, Dr. Horn, among others. It was progressive Adventism that produced the SDABC and SDA Bible Dictionary. First class work for the time of their publication. (sadly, as it was being produced the Dead Sea Scrolls were just barely being understood and thus they were not able to take the advantage of them and other archaeological and linguistic studies.)

The problem is a specific type of so called "Progressive Adventism" that is actually the opposite of "Progressive" as they want to go back to the theology of the Reformation in the 1500s and stop there. Although they latched on to the philosophy of inspiration that was formed in the second half of the 1800s (interesting...) called Fundamentalism. Then they get upset that Mrs. White does not fit the Fundamentalist standard so tend to either demote her to some kind of secondary "devotional" prophet. Often they were people who came from a version of Adventism where they used to bash everyone over the head with "Sister White says this" and "Sister White says that" but as they learned the problems with Mrs. White they reject her and often latch on to Paul, who they are certain must fit the Fundamentalist view of what a prophet should be, and now they have totally changed and like to bash people, especially Adventists, over the head with "Paul says this" and "Paul says that".

Their are others who we can call "progressive" Adventists who do not fit in that group. Like I said, the SDABC came from a group of progressive Adventists, and others have built on their work as we learn more about archaeology, history and linguistic studies.

Much of what we call the "Old theology" grew from the views of those who originally opposed Jones and Wagner, but took a time out and made attempts to mix their reasons for rejecting Jones and Wagner, and tried to make some sort of compromise between their anti-Jones and Wagner view, yet fit in some of Jones and Wagner's ideas. Now in addition to this, when the book "Questions on Doctrine" came out; QOD has a lot of flaws and weaknesses, but this group has totally rejected that book as heresy, and they have filtered their ideas through that book and if QOD said it, they don't believe it and that settles it for them. They filtered out any ideas that might have any kind of similarity with QOD. Now, I do find this group a valid voice within the Adventist tapestry, I listen to them and often they may point out some Mrs. White or other quotes that I had not considered. What does scare me about them is that many in this group does not offer information and allow us to deal with the information as we understand the Bible, Mrs. White and Adventism; but too many in his group tends to act as if the gospel is the good news that the church is going to hell in a handbasket, and tries to win people through righteousness by fear for the rest of us.

Adventism is an amazing tapestry. We can all learn from each other, but we need to maintain a critical open teachable anchored mind. I like thread like this because we get to share different frameworks that our understanding fits into, so that we can both question our framework, and be aware as to which part of our tapestry our different subgroups come from, rather than blindly following whoever.

Last edited by Kevin H; 09/13/22 05:40 PM.
Re: Can someone please explain to me about Progressive Adventism? [Re: dedication] #194993
09/13/22 06:36 PM
09/13/22 06:36 PM
Kevin H  Online Content
SDA
Active Member 2022

Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 538
New York
Originally Posted by dedication
The problem with labels is that not all who consider themselves "progressive" fall into that camp.
We all need to study to find deeper and fuller meanings in scripture, which progressives say is their goal.
However, it is a sad fact that many "progressives" do undermine, and weaken the pillar doctrines.


How true. Now it is helpful to know that we tend to have the so called "Historic Adventists" on one end, and the progressives who undermine our pillars on the other hand, especially those who see Luther as the final word and thus can't see how 1844 fits. Then there is the vast group of us who does not fit into either of these two camps, we may have points where we agree and disagree (and agree to disagree) where we study what we understand, share what we learn, but don't use external control psychology to force it upon others. Allow others to listen to the evidence and make their choices.

We, all of us, as we learn information, we compare it to what we have already learned. Then we compare it to our values and this becomes our perception, and not necessary a complete understanding nor how someone else may understand it.Our job is to submit to what we do understand, present it as best we can, continue to evaluate for better understandings, continue to evaluate for making better presentations, and allow others to take the information and use their liberty of conscience with a non-use of force.

Brother dedication and I love our pillars, and love Seventh-day Adventism. We both seem to agree that in classical prophecy we use the principle of local application (and seeing how God could have finished the work in their days?) as pointed out in the essay "The Role of Israel in Old Testament Prophecy" in vol 4 of the SDABC, and thus to use the principle of historism to apply the text over history. However, while I still see this as the method to use for Daniel and Revelation, dedication appears to see them as different from the other books, and (and please forgive me sweet brother if I am misunderstanding and misrepresenting your understanding) that using this principle on them is to fall to the errors of preterism. Dedication and I need to submit to what we understand the evidence we point to. I am not to tell stories about dedication's view to try to picture him as a heretic, nor turn to bash you (whoever you are reading this) over the head with some quote of Paul (via. 135 AD, Augustine and Luther) to try to force you dedication to accept my view, or else you are a horrible legalist and trusting in your own works and thus not Christ, so you are the target for God's wrath.

Dedication and I both need to follow the Bible and Mrs. White to the best of our understanding. We share where we are coming from, and you the reader may find one side more convincing than the other, or you may see how they can both fit together, or you may come to a third view. When we get to heaven we can get the details sorted out. We just have to be teachable.

Re: Can someone please explain to me about Progressive Adventism? [Re: TheophilusOne] #194995
09/14/22 04:41 PM
09/14/22 04:41 PM
Daryl  Offline

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Posts: 24,977
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FYI: dedication is a sister as in a female.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: Can someone please explain to me about Progressive Adventism? [Re: TheophilusOne] #194997
09/16/22 04:48 AM
09/16/22 04:48 AM
dedication  Online Content

Global Moderator
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 5,703
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Originally Posted by Kevin H
We both seem to agree that in classical prophecy we use the principle of local application (and seeing how God could have finished the work in their days?) ... and thus to use the principle of historism to apply the text over history. However, while I still see this as the method to use for Daniel and Revelation, dedication appears to see them as different from the other books, and that using this principle on them is to fall to the errors of preterism


1. Firstly the classical books don't really follow the principle of historicism. They deal with local situations, many of classical prophecies did come to pass at the time, yet these prophecies, while dealing with local conditions, have descriptions embedded in them that apply to the future, whether Christ's first advent, or second advent, endtimes etc., giving a much broader picture of the great controversy, but not in a progressive story form. Some classical prophecies were conditional on the Jewish nation accepting the Messiah and thus seem to have "failed" or were only partially fulfilled. Yet we know God's promises will take place, so we look to the New Testament where they are reapplied, but not with all the same details.
And yes the story parts of Daniel are more on the "classical" side. They are local happenings, which in many ways illustrate how things may turn out in future.

2. On the other hand, true historicism is the story of earth's journey through history. It's an unfolding story that takes us from the prophet's time, all the way to restoration. While the story begins with local (in the prophet's time) event, it progresses through time in a systematic manner through earth's history.

The visions in Daniel are interpreted with the historicist method.

The vision and its interpretation in Daniel 2 gives us the pattern -- a simple, basic, outline of earth's history.
The story is a continuous story that unfolds as we move through the years of history.
It begins in Daniel's time and we see Babylon, that head of gold, Next we move down the metalic man to silver chest and arms, Media Persia. Next we move to the bronze hips symbolizing Greece. Then the iron legs of Rome, Then the feet of iron and clay (combination of Rome and Papal power) and finally the ten toes, modern nations, the last of a the metal man, the Divine Stone hits these toes and earthly kingdoms are smashed and gone. Earth is made new as God's kingdom will fill the earth forever.
This is not a conditional prophecy. The symbols represent a succession of kingdoms, which will all END, but Christ's kingdom will last forever.
It's not conditional, it is the story of earth's history for the writer assures us that "the dream [is] certain, and the interpretation thereof sure."

Three more visions repeat this same story, each adding more details to fill in the story.
Revelation takes up the story from John's time and fills in many more details of the Christian era and the final days of earth's history -- again by several visions repeating and enlarging different aspects of the same story.

It is these two books that outline history. They help us see where the classical prophecies fit in, for without the outline of history, we would not know what time it is, we wouldn't know who the beast is or where he comes from, or where those classical prophecies fit.
It is those books that verify that God knows the future. They are not conditional, they are CERTAIN they are SURE. That is their claim.

Re: Can someone please explain to me about Progressive Adventism? [Re: TheophilusOne] #194998
09/16/22 05:40 AM
09/16/22 05:40 AM
dedication  Online Content

Global Moderator
5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 5,703
Canada
Maybe Steve Wholberg explains it better
Historicism and Bible Prophecy

Re: Can someone please explain to me about Progressive Adventism? [Re: TheophilusOne] #195008
09/17/22 11:52 PM
09/17/22 11:52 PM
Kevin H  Online Content
SDA
Active Member 2022

Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 538
New York
May I recommend the essay "The Role of Israel in Old Testament Prophecy" in vol 4 of the SDABC. In college every Bible class required a fresh reading with a fresh paper on the chapter. Then in class we would study how the principle applied to the section of the Bible that we were studying.

The Bible gives two pathways to eschatology. One is that the Hebrews lived in the land which was quite literally the center of the ancient world. This was both the spot where the weather patterns, plants, animals, geography of Europe, Asia, Africa and Arabia all met and competed with each other (this is what the Bible means by the terms "Milk and Honey"), and the major intersection of the trade routes of these parts of the world met. The difficulty of living in a land flowing with "milk and honey" encouraged the Canaanites to form some very horrible superstitions of things they needed to do to help Baal, and how they though they could steal from the people traveling through their land. This made the land one of, it not the most dangerous place on earth.

The Hebrews would have made it safe for the great trade caravans. And instead of forming superstitions to try to influence and help out the gods, the Hebrews were to simply to trust the God who was in control of both milk and honey and God would bless them. Those who traveled through the land would have talked about the new people who were living there and their religion. Nations would come to learn about this God. Some nations would join in the worship of this God, others would not. And this way the gospel would have spread through the world and lead to the messianic kingdom..

If they were not faithful, then God would send curses to encourage them to change. If nothing else worked, they would go into exile. In exile they were to share with their neighbors their unfaithfulness and God's faithfulness, and thus share the gospel. If they were faithful in sharing the gospel then the exile was to end in a second great exodus lead by the messiah, and the setting up of the return would lead to the messianic kingdom.

Daniel 8 indicates the chance that the exile may not end in the second great exodus lead by the messiah, and Daniel 9 starts to give details on what they were supposed to do in return of the land for another 70 weeks of years to prepare for the messiah.

God gives a oneness of His seeing the end from the beginning, yet freedom of choice. In ancient cyclic though the ideas of how God could have applied the eschaton at one time will cycle around again. The Lord could have come err this; long err this. Yet in his seeing the end from the beginning he sees when his people will be faithful and the time for him to come will indeed come.

Daniel's readers and Revelation's readers did not walk away scratching their heads saying "That was strange" nor did they leave saying "The Pope is coming!" but they saw things that God was doing for them in their day, and how they could have spread the gospel. Antiochus does NOT fit in the cyclic principles, while both the Flavian emperors and the Papacy fit right in with especially Daniel 7 and the rest of Daniel. As we see how the events could have been fulfilled in or soon after the time of Daniel and Revelation, the better applications we can make to what we will face. Satan is horrified of this happening so he deceives many scholars to read Daniel in the time and context of Antiochus instead of the context of Babylon, and not too long after the return from Babylon.

Re: Can someone please explain to me about Progressive Adventism? [Re: TheophilusOne] #195010
09/18/22 02:19 AM
09/18/22 02:19 AM
dedication  Online Content

Global Moderator
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 5,703
Canada
"The role of Israel" in 4SDABC helps us to understand classical prophecies -- like Isaiah etc.
I agree with most of what you wrote above concerning the classical prophecies.

It's just when you link it with Daniel's prophecies that I have questions concerning your comments:

Kevin wrote: "Daniel 8 indicates the chance that the exile may not end in the second great exodus lead by the messiah, and Daniel 9 starts to give details on what they were supposed to do in return of the land for another 70 weeks of years to prepare for the messiah."

Now I agree, Daniel 9 does give the admonition that these 490 years (70 weeks) are given to the Israelite nation to prepare for the coming Messiah. Yes, that time was given to them to fully prepare themselves to receive all those promises of their kingdom being a peaceful, light to the world kingdom.
Jesus wept tears while seated on a donkey, overlooking Jerusalem, near the end of that time, realizing they had not prepared. (Matth. 23:37) He moans --
"Matt. 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate."

BUT Daniel 9 does not predict a rosy ending at all, it also tells us that they would not prepare, and that their city and sanctuary would be destroyed

Daniel 9:26 "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah (Christ) be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince (Roman Prince) that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."

These 490 years are the first part of the 2300 years in Daniel 8.
And Daniel 8 goes on for another 1810 years that takes us far beyond the story of literal Israel.

Years when, yes the prophecies are about the Rome Pope coming.

Kevin wrote: Daniel's readers and Revelation's readers did not walk away scratching their heads saying "That was strange" nor did they leave saying "The Pope is coming!"

Are you sure?
The book of Daniel says it is sealed till the time of the end. Not even Daniel fully understood the visions. (Daniel 12:8,9)
A book sealed to the time of the end is not a book written for immediate application.

As to Revelation saying "The Pope is coming"
Again -- didn't Paul say pretty much the same thing in 2 Thes.2

2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day (the second coming) shall not come , except there come a falling away (a great apostacy) first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2:4 Who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sits in the temple of God (the congregation of God's people), showing himself that he is God.
2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2:6 And now ye know what holds him back, that he might be revealed in his time.
2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now holds back, will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Yes, Revelation is saying, the Papacy and his fellow accomplices are coming. And that was already foretold by Paul as well.






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