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Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y] #194867
06/18/22 07:46 AM
06/18/22 07:46 AM
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TheophilusOne  Offline
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Wow! I gotta print this out. It is an excellent study.

I'm gonna have to take a hard look at this. This isn't something one can lightly read.

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y] #194873
06/23/22 08:58 AM
06/23/22 08:58 AM
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Karen Y  Offline OP
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I find plain revelation in the form of patterns regarding the heavenly beings around the throne of God.

The different teams of four living creatures, 24 Elders, thousands and thousands of angels, and all creatures in heaven are standing before the throne of God in the vision.

Notice in this vision that no human beings stand before the throne except the 24 Elders of the firstfruits which Jesus took at His ascension.

The phrase "for ever and ever" indicates that each heaven team never escapes its association when they praise God's attributes around their concentric position before the throne.

1) The four living-creatures:
Rev. 4:8-9 "And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,"

2) The 24 Elders:
Rev. 4:10 "The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,"

3) Every creature in heaven:
Rev. 5:13 "And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever."

The notion of "for ever and ever" for God is already mentioned in Rev. 1:6.

Rev. 1:6 "And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen."

What strikes me by this apparent pattern is why the numerous angels who are to work for the heirs of salvation (Heb.1:14) do not have the word associated with "for ever and ever" in this vision.

However, they sing sevenfold praises in this part of the vision. I almost feel like telling them don't forget to say "for ever and ever" like all other teams because that is the pattern.

Nevertheless, they say "for ever and ever" with "Amen....Amen" when all the heirs of salvation arrive before the throne of God, plus emphatic sevenfold praises.

Rev. 7:12 "Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

It shows that the angels would not be satisfied unless their duty to serve humanity for their redemption.

The two distinct groups who are redeemed from the earth are 1) Great Multitudes and 2) 144,000.

The Great Multitudes are the saints resurrected from their sleep in the Lord for over 6,000 years. So, they are countless or numberless redeemed saints.

The 144,000 are the literal number of saints who will taste no death but go through the great tribulation and meet the Lord alive.

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y] #194883
07/04/22 10:26 AM
07/04/22 10:26 AM
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Karen Y  Offline OP
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In Rev. 12, there are two great wonders in heaven: 1) a woman and 2)a great red dragon. The woman represents the church, equating to the seven churches of Revelation. Notice that she is wearing a crown that Jesus promised to give (Rev. 2:10 and 3:11) for the triumphant church.

The red dragon intends to snatch the woman's crown (the church in which the head is Jesus Christ). The dragon appeared to have seven heads, for he intended to take the crown out of her. The imageries of Ch. 12 of Revelation indicate why the dragon has seven heads with seven crowns on his head, but the church has the crown God gave to the woman.
The beginning point of the dragon with his seven heads juxtaposed with the woman is when Jesus "was caught up unto God" (Rev. 12:5). Thus, the seven heads should be considered Satan's opposing power against the churches.

The dragon wants to be the head of the seven churches. Each of the seven churches mentions Satan's attempts:
2:2 "...and hast found them liars"-Satan is the father of liars(John 8:44);
2:9 "...are the synagogue of Satan";
2:13 "...where Satan dwells";
2:24"...have not known the depth of Satan";
3:1"...thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead"-Satan has the power of death(Heb. 2:14);
3:9 "behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan..."
and Laodicea church has no further saying of Satan because of their spiritual deaf ear.

The vicegerent of the dragon, the sea beast, also has identical imagery with seven heads and ten horns(Rev. 13:1) like the dragon of Rev. 12:3.

He has, however, his crown on the ten horns, not on the seven heads.
Rev. 17:12 said the ten horns are ten kings, and the seven heads are seven mountains which the harlot woman sits, also called seven kings.

In short, I believe the dragon's seven heads should be the opposing power of Satan against the historical time of the seven churches.

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y] #194894
07/18/22 09:23 AM
07/18/22 09:23 AM
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Karen Y  Offline OP
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Joined: Feb 2014
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Michigan, US
The harlot woman of Revelation sits on the seven-headed beast, in which the connotation is that she controls the subject. A woman represents the church in prophecy. Therefore, a harlot woman represents a false church.

Which church persecuted the people of God as no one else did over the dispensational historical time of the church? It was the papal system. When Jesus resurrected and ascended to heaven, He built His church on the earth. "upon this rock I will build my church." (Matt. 16:18).

The grassroots of the antichrist power already existed in the first century. "
"Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time." (1 John 2:18).

The harlot woman-antichrist- came into the scene after Jesus established the church. She could not have sat when there was no seven-headed beast during the old empires. She could not have sat upon the kingdoms of old. Even the imagery of the dragon came into a scene with seven heads and ten horns when the pure woman was about to give birth to the child, the Christ. (See Rev. 12).

The devil's diabolical powers stand against the church over seven church periods. Satan's tactics are highly sophisticated and intelligent to deceive people in the church. Therefore, the image of the dragon in rev. 12 is seven heads and ten horns. He gave his power, seat, and authority to the sea beast (Rev. 13:2). So the beast appeared with seven heads and ten horns (Rev. 13:1).

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y] #194912
07/26/22 09:57 AM
07/26/22 09:57 AM
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Karen Y  Offline OP
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Revelation 16:5-7 say that the harlot of Babylon is judged:

"And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be,
because thou hast judged thus. For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments."

What is the qualified reason that the harlot must be judged and deserve a divine punishment?

Did God give her time to repent? Rev. 2:21 "And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not."

How long has she fornicated with the kings of the earth?

Rev. 17:1-2 "And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication."

What is the standard of judgment?

Rev. 11:19 "And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail."

Who attacks and prevents people from receiving the seal of God? Instead, enforces the mark of the beast?

Rev. 13:15 " as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads."

When is the judgment begun?

Rev. 14:7 "Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters."

When did the judgment of the harlot begin?

It began when the Advent Movement gave birth to the remnant church that keeps the entire commandments of God and lifts the seventh day Sabbath, the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

The judgment of God allows "space to repent of her fornication" (Rev. 2:21), while the seven trumpets' message makes a clear warning, but the harlot refuses to repent until the end of the judgment hour.

Rev. 19:2 "For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand."

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y] #195014
09/21/22 04:11 PM
09/21/22 04:11 PM
K
Karen Y  Offline OP
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Those who receive the Mark of the Beast are the ones who will experience the hurt of Revelation. In other words, God pronounced the hurt of the earth and the sea, therefore, the wicked people who do not have the seal of God will be hurt.

Rev. 7:3 "Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."

Rev. 16:2 "And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image."

If people don't have the seal of God, then they would have received the mark of the beast at the end.

Please look at the first three plagues of the seven last plagues. It talks about the hurt of the earth and the sea and the drinking water.
Please look at the first three trumpets of the seven trumpets of Revelation. It also talks about the hurt of the earth, the sea and the drinking water in the manner of warning that is to come.

The first bowl of the plague was poured upon the earth. The first trumpet says "hail and fire mingled with blood" cast upon the earth, which to hurt 1/3 of trees and all green grass to burn. Trees and grass are symbolically speaking of people. The wicked people will be hurt because they rejected the gospel and received the mark of the beast. The wicked cannot escape the "noisome and grievous sore" of the first plague.

The second bowl of the plague affects the sea to harm, which will turn the sea "as the blood of a dead man" and all living creatures will die. This is talking about the hurt of the sea of Rev. 7.
The second trumpet says "a great mountain burning with fire" will be cast into the sea. Can somebody build a mountain? what about to remove a mountain? If a mountain burning with fire and speedily cast into something, no one can't stop it. The trumpet's warning has a connotation regarding unable to prevent when things happening in a destructive manner; it is to hurt the sea.

The third bowl poured upon the drinking water and the water became blood. When water turns to blood as poisonous in the plagues, the fundamental problem is addressed.
Rev. 16:6-7 "For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments."

The third trumpet says a great star fell and it is called Wormwood, which will bring death and bitterness. Whoever participates to kill saints and prophets have to drink the third bowl of the plague. In other words, there will be saints and prophets in the world even unto the end of the world.

The seven trumpets clearly speak about the hurt of the earth and the sea at the end of the world that will manifest in the seven last plagues.

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y] #195015
09/22/22 01:04 PM
09/22/22 01:04 PM
dedication  Online Content

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The seven trumpets are partial in there scope in sequential periods in history: they are warnings of judgment to come , a foretaste or example of the severity of judgments to come yet still mixed with mercy When the judgments of the last plagues fall upon the earth they are no longer mixed with mercy. Probation will be closed.

The trumpets are judgments on a world that professes to be Christian throughout the Christian Era but fails to follow Christ and actually is opposed to the real Christ and demonstrates the methods of the usurper The seventh or last of the seven trumpets covers the time of the end from 1844 to Christ?s kingdom. The plagues are final judgments that take place when these same supposedly Christian powers declare open universal war on those who keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus. At that point probation has closed, just before the appearing when Christ delivers His followers

Last edited by dedication; 09/23/22 11:40 AM.
Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y] #195115
10/23/22 09:24 AM
10/23/22 09:24 AM
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Karen Y  Offline OP
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Thanks Dedication for your input. Sorry, I couldn't reply due to logging issue in the last few weeks.

My understanding of the seven trumpets is not in sequential periods in history because the each message corresponds to the seven last plagues so clearly.

For example: 1st plague cast upon the earth - 1st trumpet cast upon the earth

Those who receive the first plague are the ones who reject God's grace to be sealed (Rev. 9:4). They will be the most wicked alive at the last generation. God warns them that "hail and fire mingled with blood" will fall upon them in a symbolic language, which further says, "the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up" (Rev. 8:7). The word "hail and fire" is often used as God's judgment to come in the bible. The trees and grass denote leaders of men and people. Rev. 7:1-3 make more clear about its interpretation: "And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."

I see the seven trumpets and the seven plagues convey a totality in and of themselves rather than in a sequential order although it appears one after another. The warning of hail in the trumpet that has deadly impact as bloody is concluded with the hail of "the weight of a talent" (Rev. 16:21). There are trumpet's warning before the seven last plagues. I believe in God who is merciful and loving that He will not pour out the terrible plagues without a warning (Amos 3:7).

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y] #195117
10/23/22 12:02 PM
10/23/22 12:02 PM
dedication  Online Content

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We do disagree, and everyone is free to believe what they think is right.

But here are some reasons why I disagree.

You (Karen) stated
"I do not think that during the each Christian Era 'the inhabiters of the earth'-the whole world was warned about the judgment of God by the trumpet's sound. Thus, the warning of the seven trumpets has to be for the final warning to the world in the apocalyptic sealing."
You also stated:
"The fifth trumpet, there is a command of God that 'they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads'(Chap 9:4). This verse portrays the final issue of the Sabbath as the seal of God which I think, conclusively, that the fifth trumpet has to occur after 1844.


THREE QUESTIONS
One question -- do all the inhabiters of the earth live in the last generation?
Has not the full revelation of the gospel of Christ gone out to the whole world ever since the time of Pentecost when the apostles received the Holy Spirit?

Second question --- Did not Paul state that people were receiving the seal by the Holy Spirit already in his day?
See 2 Cor. 1:22, Eph. 1:13 and 4:30?

Third question -- Did not Daniel in Daniel 12:2 say that many of the people who rejected and pierced Christ (symbolically as well as literally) will be raised prior to the second coming to see His coming. People who did NOT receive the gospel seal in their lifetime. (See also Maranatha 284)

Yes, there is a difference between the gospel seal and the final, apocalyptic seal, for once the final apocalyptic seal is placed probation will close, there will be people living but probation will be closed and there will be no more opportunity to change. Those who are just will remain just, and those unjust will remain unjust.

But don't you think the world, all through the gospel era, would receive warning of what they would face in the last day? It's not just about the last generation -- it's about rejecting Christ and the Holy Spirit all through the ages since HIS sacrifice for our redemption has been manifest to the world.

The whole sequence of the seals portray this --
The Holy Spirit was poured out at Pentecost --the white horse of the pure gospel has been riding ever since Pentecost offering the seal of God -- offering His "earnest" for our salvation. But the horses were blackened, the seal was rejected. People were rejecting the seal all through the Christian era. But there were always some accepted the gospel and were sealed all along, many of them were slain and their blood cries from under the altar, they receive their white robes!!!. They were sealed as God's people!!! By the seventh seal, the end is prolonged because God wants more people sealed. The slain are still waiting (for the resurrection) till others like them are sealed.

Yes, the 5th trumpet warns people to accept the gospel seal, for no one who rejects the gospel seal will be saved, nor will anyone who rejects the gospel seal receive the final apocalyptic seal.
But the 5th trumpet has a definite time prophecy, so it must take place before the Divine angel proclaims that time (as in all prophesied and definite tracing of time prior to and predicting Christ's coming) has ended. (Rev. 10)
So the fifth trumpet happened prior to 1844, for it has a definite time period within it.
It was already warning the world during the papal era, to stop following the beast and his distortion of the gospel seal --

The final warning to the world started in 1840's when the three angel's messages started to sound. The three angel's give the full message of God's everlasting gospel, urging people to WORSHIP GOD -- accepting His creative power, and His commandments, warning that the hour of judgment has come, and yes, the Sabbath commemorating God's creative power, was and is proclaimed. The third angel urgently calls for people not to follow the beast (the blackened horses that distorted the sealing process through the Christian era???) The great disappointment, though painful, brought the message to the attention of the world. It shook up the world. And had all the Advent believers of 1844 accepted the third angel's message following the disappointment, CHRIST COULD HAVE COME ERE THIS!!!
EGW clearly places the third angel's message IN THE SEVENTH TRUMPET. We are living in the seventh trumpet --



Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y] #195120
10/24/22 09:53 PM
10/24/22 09:53 PM
K
Karen Y  Offline OP
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I appreciate your sharing, Dedication, though we do have different approaches to interpret.

In my view, the seven trumpets are not sequential in order for the fulfillment. As I read daily, the imageries of Revelation become so plain and obvious to me that there are definite
correlation between the seven trumpets and the seven plagues.

1st plague "upon the earth" => 1st trumpet "upon the earth"
2nd plague "upon the sea" => 2nd trumpet "upon the sea"
3rd plague "upon drinking water" => 3rd trumpet "upon drinking water"
4th plague "upon the sun" => 4th trumpet upon the light source (sun, moon, stars)
5th plague "upon the seat of the beast" => 5th trumpet indicates the star fall from heaven (Papacy is the beast)
6th plague is the three unclean spirits' movement => 6th trumpet is that God speaks from "the four horns" of the sanctuary
7th plague is "It is done => 7th trumpet is that the kingdoms of this world becomes the kingdom of God

I just can't ignore the above observations.

Blessings,

Karen

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