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Re: Bible Doctrines affected by Modern Versions [Re: Green Cochoa] #194250
07/19/21 07:45 PM
07/19/21 07:45 PM
Matthew 10vs8  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2021
Posts: 85
Ili Ili, AS
Originally Posted by Green Cochoa
Matthew,

Take a deep breath. I am not your enemy. We wrestle not against flesh and blood...remember?

Have you seen what Mrs. White wrote about Bible versions/perversions? If not, please click HERE to see some of those statements. They are important. ...

God bless,

Green Cochoa.

Wanted to thank you again for the link to those Manuscript quotes. Great stuff. I will be definitely passing them on to my sphere of influence. I have personally added them to my collection of citation on these matters.

[as a PS, I love Benjamin G. Wilkinson's material, and I have also read the Standish brothers (Russell and Colin), Walter J. Veith's, Frank W. Hardy, and Vance Ferrell's material, M. L. Andreasen, Sharon Thomas Crews, Dan Andries, H. H. Meyers, also, with many others non-Seventh-day Adventist (Gail Riplinger, Peter S Ruckman, Sam Gipp, David Otis Fuller, Dean John William Burgon, James Jasper Ray, Lawrence M. Vance; David W. Daniels, Will Kinney (Brand Plucked), Floyd Nolan Jones, David Blunt, Alan O'Reilly, D. A. Waite [and D.B.Society], Jack Moorman, Jack McElroy, H. N. Harkell, Erasmus, King James I, Tyndale, Wycliffe, Genevans, etc, and as well as heard James White (Reformed 'Evangelical'; though much of his material is simply erroneous), John Ankerberg, Walter Martin, West and Hort's personal letters, etc.

Re: Bible Doctrines affected by Modern Versions [Re: Matthew 10vs8] #194384
08/18/21 09:14 AM
08/18/21 09:14 AM
Rick H  Offline
OP
Group: Admin Team
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,796
Florida, USA
Originally Posted by Matthew 10vs8
Originally Posted by Green Cochoa
Matthew,

Take a deep breath. I am not your enemy. We wrestle not against flesh and blood...remember?

Have you seen what Mrs. White wrote about Bible versions/perversions? If not, please click HERE to see some of those statements. They are important. ...

God bless,

Green Cochoa.

Wanted to thank you again for the link to those Manuscript quotes. Great stuff. I will be definitely passing them on to my sphere of influence. I have personally added them to my collection of citation on these matters.

[as a PS, I love Benjamin G. Wilkinson's material, and I have also read the Standish brothers (Russell and Colin), Walter J. Veith's, Frank W. Hardy, and Vance Ferrell's material, M. L. Andreasen, Sharon Thomas Crews, Dan Andries, H. H. Meyers, also, with many others non-Seventh-day Adventist (Gail Riplinger, Peter S Ruckman, Sam Gipp, David Otis Fuller, Dean John William Burgon, James Jasper Ray, Lawrence M. Vance; David W. Daniels, Will Kinney (Brand Plucked), Floyd Nolan Jones, David Blunt, Alan O'Reilly, D. A. Waite [and D.B.Society], Jack Moorman, Jack McElroy, H. N. Harkell, Erasmus, King James I, Tyndale, Wycliffe, Genevans, etc, and as well as heard James White (Reformed 'Evangelical'; though much of his material is simply erroneous), John Ankerberg, Walter Martin, West and Hort's personal letters, etc.
The fact that it has a direct correlation on Adventist beliefs and some of the basic doctrines of faith, is very telling..

Re: Bible Doctrines affected by Modern Versions [Re: Rick H] #194387
08/18/21 11:20 AM
08/18/21 11:20 AM
K
kland  Offline
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Active Member 2022

5500+ Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,221
Midland
But can anyone give at least one example of Ellen White talking about Bible versions?
Because I have not seen any here.

Re: Bible Doctrines affected by Modern Versions [Re: Rick H] #194632
01/26/22 11:38 AM
01/26/22 11:38 AM
K
kland  Offline
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Active Member 2022

5500+ Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,221
Midland
Guess no one has....

Anyway, contrary to what some here are saying, I found the following video from Veith somewhat informative. It is giving the idea that some manuscripts (not final English versions, mind you) may not be legitimate. I recall one video from Veith where he talked for a whole hour on how one English version is different than another. I am not aware of anyone disputing that different versions are different. Just what is most correct, that is, if any could be considered more correct.

Unfortunately, towards the back half of the video, he got off the wagon and started talking about English wording. Too bad. Does he mean to say, as some so here so indicate, that only those who read ancient English will know the truth? I say NOT.

Walter Veith & Martin Smith - Gnosticism and The Word Of God - What's Up Prof? 90

Re: Bible Doctrines affected by Modern Versions [Re: Rick H] #194644
02/10/22 09:42 AM
02/10/22 09:42 AM
Daryl  Offline

Site Administrator
23000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 24,977
Nova Scotia, Canada
It seems to me that EGW used, as in quoted, other English Bible versions, but would need to look into that further to verify that.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: Bible Doctrines affected by Modern Versions [Re: Daryl] #194958
09/01/22 12:34 AM
09/01/22 12:34 AM
Kevin H  Online Content
SDA
Active Member 2022

Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 538
New York
Originally Posted by Daryl
It seems to me that EGW used, as in quoted, other English Bible versions, but would need to look into that further to verify that.


I do not have the sources, but yes she did (as well as quoting texts differently from Bibles in her day, but which has found to be more accurate).
KJ Only people have posted conspiracy theories trying to explain this away. Elder Wilkinson was corrected by many of our church leaders (and while not about the KJV Bible, on other topics he and other leaders of the so called "Historic Adventists" had some sharp letters that I read between them and Mrs. White and/or Willie.). Wilkinson's education was in modern languages, not ancient languages nor Bible. He was a close friend of Elder Washburn and reflected much of Washburn's thought (also among those that got those letters I read in the White Estate Vault).

Now, Elder Wilkinson ended up causing a lot of friction between people. He was the only person HMS Richards Sr. hated due to how Wilkinson would talk to his mother and make her cry. However, as he became old he became alone in a nursing home, and HMS would come to visit him, forgave him and they became close friends. Also, apparently Wilkinson changed many of his earlier views during these last years and became much more moderate. ,

Re: Bible Doctrines affected by Modern Versions [Re: Rick H] #194959
09/01/22 12:40 AM
09/01/22 12:40 AM
Kevin H  Online Content
SDA
Active Member 2022

Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 538
New York
Originally Posted by Rick H

Daniel 3:25 (New International Version)
25 He said, "Look! I see four men walking around in the fire, unbound and unharmed, and the fourth looks like a son of the gods."

What son of what god are they talking about here? Jupiter, Baal, Apollos? The sun god of the Babylonians, Mirtha......?


Nebuchadnezzar was still a pagan. "A son of the gods" was the typical way for pagans saying that someone was a divine being. This text tells how even the pagan king realized that there was a divine being involved with the deliverance of these men.

We find the same thing in Mark. In the book of Mark, (except for some quotes from demons) no one realizes who Jesus is. Many good Jews who should have known who Jesus is, missed the boat. The only one who realized who Jesus was turned out to be a pagan who could only tell the truth in words that would shock a good monotheistic Jew.

Now, Luke on the other hand has many knowing who Jesus was since before his birth and when Luke got to the centurion, Luke only has him saying that Jesus must have been a good man.

Re: Bible Doctrines affected by Modern Versions [Re: Daryl] #195021
09/24/22 07:10 PM
09/24/22 07:10 PM
Rick H  Offline
OP
Group: Admin Team
2500+ Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,796
Florida, USA
Originally Posted by Daryl
It seems to me that EGW used, as in quoted, other English Bible versions, but would need to look into that further to verify that.


yes, Ive come across that but it seems some of the updated versions, not the modern changed ones. But will have to look deeper and see what I find..

Re: Bible Doctrines affected by Modern Versions [Re: Rick H] #195033
09/26/22 06:29 PM
09/26/22 06:29 PM
K
kland  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2022

5500+ Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,221
Midland
Changed ones, or different ones?

Again, what is your ruler for comparing which is correct?

The SDA commentary is full of where the KJV says one word, but the commentary says things like, "better ..." and uses a different word. It uses the Greek and Hebrew usage as it's ruler. What is yours?

Re: Bible Doctrines affected by Modern Versions [Re: Rick H] #195041
09/30/22 08:18 PM
09/30/22 08:18 PM
Kevin H  Online Content
SDA
Active Member 2022

Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 538
New York
All translations are effected by the translator's backgrounds and issues the church is facing at the time of the translations, thus they have their strong and weak points. In the 1600s there were translations that were either strongly pro Catholic and many who were strongly anti-Catholic. The KJV was actually a compromise and was originally to be acceptable by both, although the Catholics made their own version so that they did not use the KJV as much as was hoped.

Also, there is the knowledge in Biblical geography and archaeology that only started in the mid 1800s (interesting!!!) and the Dead Sea scrolls was not discovered until the 1940s. We need to know how much these discoveries impact the translation.

We need to keep these things in mind as we read the Bible. Different versions help, but some of the better ones can be costly. There are very scholarly translations such as by Robert Alter, Everett Fox (Fox tries to let us know the poetic rhythms of the text)

Keep in mind that there are both literal translations and dynamic translations; both have their rolls. The literal tries to be somewhat word for word. Of course they can be more or less technical, and sometimes the strict word for word does not give the implications of the terms, studying other ancient writings we can get a better understanding of the ideas that these words were used to give, and thus the dynamic translations can catch many of these. There are also paraphrases which technically is not considered a "real" Bible, but tries to help us understand the text. And both literal, dynamic Bibles still have a fair amount of paraphrasing, and paraphrases still end up with a great deal of translation.

Often a good recommendation is to find a Bible that is easy for you to read. There are Bibles written on the third grade reading level. Then have a study Bible to spend more time with, and if you can have a few different study Bibles (either your own, or in a local library.)

Some useful levels for Bible Study starts out with simply reading the Bible. (a hint is that the book of Deuteronomy was meant to read out loud not to our self) But just read and use different translations to help see ways the words are translated.

The second layer is to become acquainted with a concordance. Both the looking up different texts, other texts that use the same word, how they correspond to other word study books such as The Theological Word Book of the Old Testament. This book is sadly costly, somehow I happened to stumble across it at a reasonable price, but the book is priceless: Jacques Doukhan "Hebrew for Theologians" I'm not yet ready for the language part of the book yet, but Doukhan gives fantastic information on the Hebrew language. Maybe if you have a few close friends you can pool together the cost and share the book among yourselves. Maybe start a library at your church. (Doukhan has other books that are affordable and anything he writes is outstanding!!!!) Oh, I just looked up and "Hebrew for Theologians" has dropped from $74.00 to $58.45. Still costly, but worth it!!! https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0819192694/ref=ewc_pr_img_1?smid=A2LV0SRZBF8L1P&psc=1

A third layer is learning the history, culture and geography. The three classics here are John Bright "A History of Israel" Aharoni "The Land of the Bible" and the McMillian Bible Atlas. There are also some books less scholarly but covering the same information. Other useful books here would be if you can find a copy of "Before Philosophy" by Henri Frankfort and others 1946 University of Chicago Press. (This book happens to end up covering the thought behind the day=year situation. Desmond Ford could not say some of the controversial things he said if only he had read this book). Also Bowman's "Hebrew Thought Compared to Greek" I really like "Thopmson's Archaeology" Carol and Eric Meyers have books that are useful in studying on this level. Ellen F. Davis, Scripture, Culture and Agriculture. I read it two years ago. Powerful.

A fourth layer would be commentaries. But commentaries are the thoughts of different scholars. If you become familiar with the concordances and word books, and maybe not reading cover to cover but using as a resource the five books first mentioned above (Bright's History of Israel, Aharoni's land of the Bible, The McMillian Bible Atlas, Before Philosophy, and Hebrew Thought Compared to Greek) then commentaries are not your teacher, but your colleague where you can read them critically, and allow the commentators to add to your knowledge or decide that the comment is not useful or someplace in between.

As for commentary series when studying a text I like to read in the SDABC (and being aware of it's age, and that the Dead Sea Scrolls were just staring to share their insights when it was being written. While the commentary itself is dated it is still useful, but the articles are outstanding!) The Interpreters Bible, the New International commentaries, and of course the Anchor Bible. While the Anchor Bible has scholars of different backgrounds, they tend to be overall moderate, just like the SDABC. The interpreters leans a bit liberal, but very careful of the facts, and similarly the New International tends to lean a bit conservative, but very careful of the facts. And generally speaking these 4 commentaries do a sweet dancing around the truth to help bring us closer to the truth. Then you may find some individual volumes useful. I love the New commentaries that our church is working on. I read and love Dr. Doukhan's commentary on Genesis; and they just published a volume covering Psalms - Song of Soloman that I just got and leafing through looks good. SigveTonstad has fantastic commentaries on Romans and Revelation.

(Speaking of Revelation, one of our best commentaries on Revelation is George McCready Price "The Time of the End" Although written in the early 1960s just before his death, it is still superior. Now, there are a few recordings that are floating around that are also useful. Methodist Archaeologist Dr. Jim Fleming has a sermon/lecture on the Beatitudes in which he gives the strong and weak points of both pre and post millennial approaches, and thus has important ideas for anyone studying eschatology for any approach. -- He also has important lectures on the death of Jesus and the Jews, and also what the term "Milk and Honey" meant to the ancient world-- If you can get the "Last Day Events" seminar from the 1976 Southern New England campmeeting. In more detail but sadly has much Adventist tradition that Price and the Campmeeting seminar correct, Richard Nies eschatology. Now, if you are first having a foundation of the Adventist understanding of Revelation, especially knowing Price, the Campmeeting series and Tonstad's book, then you would probably find some good information in the work of Revelation by Lutheran Craig R Koester, found in the Anchor Bible on Revelation and lectures for "The Great Courses" on the Apocalypse. He is very balanced, but we as Seventh-day Adventists can see even more in his work than he probably sees. Now, I came across a DVD on Revelation by a Craig Keener where I quickly thought it was Koester so I bought it. Keener's work is not bad but does not make these super-strong recommendations that are here. However Keener did say something outstanding about being lukewarm and how God wants us to be either hot or cold. I had thought and have often heard that the hot and cold are "Either be on fire for the Lord, or else not be interested in religion." Keener points out that the context is of water, and that hot and cold water are two ways of ministry. Hot water can be like a good hot bath and a good hot drink to start out the day or to relax at the end of the day, and maybe a break during the day. Cold water helps to revive us, it helps us as we are dealing with the stress of the job and of the day, keeping us hydrated, cool in dealing with the heat of the day and the strength to continue the stress of the work that needs to be done. Thus Keener pictures God as saying "Instead of being worthless lukewarm water, either be hot water helping the workers start and end the day and to help to relax from the stress and help them rest, or else be cold water, helping in the work and helping to work with the stress.)

I have not read it yet, but Carol Meyers has a commentary on Exodus that I have in my "Soon to read" pile. Ellen Davis has a commentary on Psalms that I will read with the new commentary our church put out on Psalms - Song of Solomon. You will learn names that will catch your eye, such how I love the work of Jacques Doukhan, Richard Davidson, Jim Fleming, Sigve Tonstad, Eric and Carol Meyers, Ellen Davis, Craig Koester etc.

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