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Re: Daniel and Revelation Interpretations [Re: dedication] #195124
10/25/22 09:04 PM
10/25/22 09:04 PM
dedication  Online Content OP
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Do you want the context of that quote?
Daniel and Revelation?
The mighty Angel who instructed John was no less a personage than Jesus Christ. Setting His right foot on the sea, and His left upon the dry land, shows the part which He is acting in the closing scenes of the great controversy with Satan. This position denotes His supreme power and authority over the whole earth. The controversy has waxed stronger and more determined from age to age, and will continue to do so, to the concluding scenes when the masterly working of the powers of darkness shall reach their height. Satan, united with evil men, will deceive the whole world and the churches who receive not the love of the truth. But the mighty Angel demands attention. He cries with a loud voice. He is to show the power and authority of His voice to those who have united with Satan to oppose the truth.
After these seven thunders uttered their voices, the instruction comes to John as to Daniel in regard to the little book: ?Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered.? These relate to future events which will be disclosed in their order. Daniel shall stand in his lot at the end of the days. John sees the little book unsealed. Then Daniel's prophecies have their proper place in the first, second, and third angels? messages to be given to the world. The unsealing of the little book was the message in relation to time.
The books of Daniel and the Revelation are one. One is a prophecy, the other a revelation; one a book sealed, the other a book opened. John heard the mysteries which the thunders uttered, but he was commanded not to write them.
The special light given to John which was expressed in the seven thunders was a delineation of events which would transpire under the first and second angels? messages. It was not best for the people to know these things, for their faith must necessarily be tested. In the order of God most wonderful and advanced truths would be proclaimed. The first and second angels? messages were to be proclaimed, but no further light was to be revealed before these messages had done their specific work. This is represented by the Angel standing with one foot on the sea, proclaiming with a most solemn oath that time should be no longer.

This time, which the angel declares with a solemn oath, is not the end of this world's history, neither of probationary time, but of prophetic time, which should precede the advent of our Lord. That is, the people will not have another message upon definite time. After this period of time, reaching from 1842 to 1844, there can be no definite tracing of the prophetic time. The longest reckoning reaches to the autumn of 1844
The Angel's position, with one foot on the sea, the other on the land, signifies the wide extent of the proclamation of the message. It will cross the broad waters and be proclaimed in other countries, even to all the world. The comprehension of truth, the glad reception of the message, is represented in the eating of the little book. The truth in regard to the time of the advent of our Lord was a precious message to our souls.
The greatest work to be done in this life is to make preparation for the future life, for that life which measures with the life of God. A probation has been granted us that, notwithstanding the difficulties, we may cultivate virtues which shall carry us into the higher life. Pure love for one another is exercised by those who are partakers of the divine nature.. Manuscript 59 (1900)

EGW was consistant all through the years on this issue.
She did not write this simply to meet some isolated condition, she voiced this consistently over many years and in response to many different attempts to change the interpretations of time in prophecy or set dates for endtime events.
It's all based on Revelation 10


I plainly stated at the Jackson camp meeting to these fanatical parties that they were doing the work of the adversary of souls; they were in darkness. They claimed to have great light that probation would close in October, 1884. I there stated in public that the Lord had been pleased to show me that there would be no definite time in the message given of God since 1844.?2SM 73 (1885).
Our position has been one of waiting and watching, with no time-proclamation to intervene between the close of the prophetic periods in 1844 and the time of our Lord?s coming.?10MR 270 (1888)

But again -- This is based on the Bible, she is simply agreeing with scripture.

It is the DIVINE ANGEL that proclaims that time shall be no longer. This is in Revelation10:6
The bible itself gives the clues as to where we are in these prophecies.
In the very next verse the angel says the seventh trumpet has not yet sounded -- but it will sound and it will bring God's . mystery to a finish. Revelation 10:7
We are living in the seventh trumpet. The opening of the heavenly message of the ark in heaven with its testament (10 commandments) has gone forth, the time of the dead that they should be judged has come, Christ is about to take great power and make the final end to sin! (Revealation 11:18-19 We don't have to wait for a bunch of timelines to unfold, we are at the end and the final movements will be rapid ones.

Re: Daniel and Revelation Interpretations [Re: dedication] #195173
11/14/22 05:39 PM
11/14/22 05:39 PM
dedication  Online Content OP
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The main message in Daniel and Revelation is not "time" predictions, that is included mainly to set a framework spanning history so we can see approximately where we are in the unfolding of the Great Controversy.

What I see is the battle between the true and the false worship.
And the revealing of the two leaders who are offering us these two choices.

Prophecy is a revelation of Christ our Savior and Redeemer and those who worship Him.
Prophecy also reveals the opposition,
the rebellious fallen angel who has set up false worship for this followers who end up worshipping him.


Do we serve the METAL MAN?
In Daniel two we see a METAL MAN. A lifeless yet impressive and domineering metal man who demands worship and honor throughout earth's history.


Do we serve the LIVING MAN, the Son of God?

In Daniel ten and twelve we see the LIVING MAN. He is Michael, the great prince who stands for His people.
He is also depicted in Daniel 10:5-6: whose loins girded with fine gold of Uphaz:
His body also like the beryl, and his face as the appearance of lightning, and his eyes as lamps of fire, and his arms and his feet like in colour to polished brass, and the voice of his words like the voice of a multitude.

In Revelation the same two are portrayed.


Christ the first and last, the LAMB of God slain but living, working to Redeem mankind, worthy of honor and worship.
In opposition --
We see beasts of prey, powerful, domineering, demanding worship.

The battle is over "US". We are the ones over which the battle wages -- the choice of who we will worship is ours.

Yet the outcome is vastly different.
Misery and eternal death is the only reward offered by one of these leaders.

But we have another option, thanks to our wonderful Savior!
He offers Salvation, eternal Life and endless happiness for all who belief, trust and follow Christ

Re: Daniel and Revelation Interpretations [Re: dedication] #195219
12/03/22 01:23 AM
12/03/22 01:23 AM
dedication  Online Content OP
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Prophetic interpretation of Daniel and Revelation
Historicist, Futurist, or Preterist?

Outlines the progression of divine revelation concerning human and ecclesiastical (church) history and the story of the struggle between good and evil from the time of the prophet on down to the end of time.
For centuries this was the chief method of biblical scholars as they interpreted these books.

The historical interpretation of prophecy identified and regards Papal Rome as the Babylon of the Apocalypse, and the Roman pontiff as ?the man of sin.? The historical interpretation was the earliest adopted in the Christian Church; it developed with the course of history; it sustained the Church in the wilderness through the long central ages of apostasy; it gave birth to the Reformation and gave them the courage to stand up against the dominate church in spite of much persecution, it provided the basis for the Adventist church to see where we are in history and to understand the three angel's message.
It stood for ages, and takes us through the time of the end into the light of eternity.
The historic interpretation is no dream of ignorant enthusiasts. It has grown with the growth of generations; it has been built up by the labours of men of many nations and ages. It has been embodied in solemn confessions of the Protestant Church. It forms a leading element in the testimony of martyrs and reformers. Like the prophets of old, these holy men bore a double testimony?a testimony for the truth of God, and a testimony against the apostasy of His professing people?and this was their testimony and nothing less, that Papal Rome is the Babylon of prophecy, drunken with the saints and martyrs; and that its head, the Roman pontiff, is the predicted ?man of sin,? or antichrist. To reject this testimony of God?s providential witnesses on a matter of such fundamental import, and to prefer to it the counter-doctrine advocated by the apostate, persecuting Church of Rome, is the error and guilt of modern Futurism.? H. Grattan Guinness,Romanism and the Reformation From the Standpoint of Prophecy, pp. 297, 298.

So what happened?

Rome was facing a crises. The Prophecies in the Bible were all pointing at the Roman Papal system as the anti-christ, the whore with the wine of intoxication, the apostate religious system, the horn speaking blasphemy. So the counter-reformation was launched, and a prophetic interpretation that supposedly wasn't talking about papal Rome had to be introduced.

One system: preterist, had placed the fulfilment of prophecy all before the papacy arose.
The other system: futurism, skipped from Christ's day all the way to the end, ignoring all Christian history in the middle and predicting the prophecies will all be fulfilled at the end. The latter later became rather popular with protestants (destroying their former historicist interpretations)

Get's it's name because most of the prophecies (except for a few referring to Christ's time) are lifted and far removed from the prophet's time, into the future.
Futurism sees the symbolic mostly as literal, denying the symbolic character of many of the symbols.
It hides the light that has guided the faithful throughout Christendom,
It basically tries to tell us the Reformers were all wrong in their prophetic interpretations and they were right.
It tries to tell us Adventism is all wrong in their prophetic interpretations and that Rome was never identified in these prophecies.

Futurism can take different forms.

One rather popular form of futurism developed rather recently by "protestants" has made a large impact on society! It has and is playing a role in shaping American (and some others) foreign policy toward the Middle East. It has introduced several (what we believe are unbiblical) doctrines, like -- the secret rapture, Daniel's 70th week thrown into the future, the need for a third temple, where anti Christ will interfere with sacrifices, etc.

Catholics do NOT generally buy into the rapture side of futurism. One tends to find more preterist ideas in Catholic literature.
The Book of Revelation according to one Catholic scholar, was written for people who were living during the time of the author. It was written for them. They were being persecuted thus encouraging prophecies were written for them in code for their protection. Revelation, he claimed, is not a prophecy outlining things for the 21st Century.
It is also stated in their literature: that neither is the Book of Revelation a prophecy of some future or imminent return of Christ. It is a symbolic record of the victory of the Church over the world of evil especially during the days of the Roman Empire. But also in the time of the end the church will triumph. They do teach that Christ will come in glory to judge the world at some point as well. But a big point is the triumph of the church over society.
.There are facts: Rome felt the force of these prophecies in Revelation, and sought to evade them. The only way for them was to deny their applicability Find different objects or groups to pin the accusing prophecies on. They could not deny their existence in Scripture. They were there plainly enough. But they denied that these prophecies referred to the Romish Church and its head. It pushed them aside. It shifted them from the entire field of mediaeval and modern history.?
See H. Grattan Guinness, Romanism and the Reformation from the Standpoint of Prophecy, pp. 251, 252.

Re: Daniel and Revelation Interpretations [Re: dedication] #195495
02/21/23 02:13 PM
02/21/23 02:13 PM
dedication  Online Content OP
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Problems of a purely exegetical approach to interpreting prophecies.

Thoughts taken from Dr. Alberto Treiyer review
former member of the Daniel and Revelation Committee,

Is it wise to throw the interpretative foundation of our church in prophetic matters under pretention, thinking we will "move forward" by casting of the anchor points, especially when there is no exegetical, theological or historical reason to do that?

Yet, we have a few well known Adventists who are seeking to do just that. They believe that Uriah Smith took from Barnes, a protestant interpreter of Revelation the idea of prophetic time in the formula "the hour, day, month and year" in Rev. 9:15 They believe, that modern exegesis has discarded that possibility, and that somehow Adventism needs to do the same. However, before Barnes, the majority of the Reformers of the last part of the Middle Ages and during the first part of the 19th century, understood that text in a prophetic dimension of day per year.

Under the influence of French enlightenment and succeeding Biblical critical movement, with the help of the counter Reformation, the historical approach was pushed aside and was eliminated by most of the interpreters of Revelation. On what basis? On no real foundation, because the exegetical criticism employed by those interpreters lacks foundation.

Sadly it seems the Adventist professors leaning away from the historicist approach didn't first read the Master thesis of Jon Stefansson, nor the two exegetical studies on Rev. 9:15 written by Dr. Tarsee Lee, a professor of theology, and many other historical studies under taken in the University of Andrews, prepared in the historical dimension and under the prophetic principles that characterize us as a people established on the divine inspiration traced through prophetic, historicistic dimension.

Stefinsson shows that if the apostle would have intended Rev. 9:15 to refer to a point in time and not to a period of time, he would have written simply that the powers were prepared "for the hour". Enlarging the time which only supposedly meant the hour it was to begin, without any clues as to the year, month or day in which that hour occurred, would be totally pointless.

Lee wrote an article of five pages entitled "Revelation 9"15 and the limits of Greek Syntax, (Journal of Adventist Theological Society 1997) He proves there is no exegetical foundation to deny a prophetic period of time by this expression , Hour, day, month, and year.

What is, then the presumption of those who consider themselves "exegetes" in our church, and who are trying to overthrow an interpretation that supports the Spirit of Prophecy?

In the confrontation that we had in 3 ABN on the trumpets, I could see my colleague Jon Paulien seated at my left hand, repeating again and again that we have to go to the Bible and remain in the Bible. This sounded good and even orthodox. But, in what context did he say this?
At any time when historical dates were introduced to confirm the prophetic fulfillment of the trumpets. It was stated that this was not in the Bible. They even criticized a lady who wrote "history has assigned a beginning date" (for the 70 years), and he add "not Scripture."

Now wait a minute: Where do we obtain the years 508, 538, and
1798 ? Those dates are given by history, not by Scripture.

This is the background of those who insist in spiritualizing the content of the trumpets. As a matter of fact, how will they convince others that they should not also spiritualize the apocalyptic beasts of Daniel and Revelation, and the other prophecies of Daniel and Revelation?
Are they prophesizing real events and real kingdoms or is it just an allegory?

May this kind of purely exegetical approach be considered historicist? No way! This is an empty idealism, because it does not make the heart to burn with the history of its fulfillment (see Luke 24:32).

Paulien wrote a seminar on Revelation that was published in Australia, but which did not work because, according to evangelists over there, people need to see in history how those prophecies were fulfilled.
History gives the evidence that prophecy is sure, it gets fulfilled, if this were not so, the apostles would not have been able to say like Jesus, "today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing" (Luke 4:21).

Problems of a purely exegetical approach.
Exegesis is good in its role of understanding meaning of words and symbols, it opens windows for more than one possibility that history has to fill. Yet at this point the other sciences need to be considered, namely, theology and history.
We need theology to give us the broader picture as to where things fit in the grand everlasting covenant of the gospel. A right theology offers biblical guidelines to find the purpose of the prophecy, and under what contextual history should its fulfillment be placed. For instance, Protestants rightly understood in former centuries that the trumpets came as judgments of God against Rome , because this was the last apocalyptic empire depicted by Daniel and Revelation.
They saw the trumpets as symbolic of real events, The symbolism found in the trumpets led them not to spiritualize their fulfillment, but to place it in the right time and understand the purpose as to why God sent, or allowed them to take place. While the first six trumpets were partial judgments (a third), only the last and seventh trumpet was expected to be definitive in connection with the coming of the Lord (Rev 11:18) when God's wrath would be outpoured in the seven plagues, 16:1)
Theology and history have to work together to determine what exegetical possibility is valuable. It is necessary to understand God's plan and purpose in the story of Redemption, and this is what systematic theology intends to do.
Historicism by itself can't stand alone, either, without understanding theology God can appear as vindictive, cruel, rather than working for the salvation of people.

.But if we do not resort to history, and base our interpretation purely on exegetical, chiastic, grammatical approach the interpretation goes nowhere in prophetic matters.
It leads to the interpretative chaos and uncertainty that we find in our church today in these
when it comes to prophecy.

So where is this all going?

We saw some of our scholars start with the decision to pull the trumpets out of the historicist method of interpretation to end the historicist interpretation for the trumpets..
But this leads to departing from historicism in the rest of the Bible. They do not realize, at the beginning, that in order to destroy the historicist interpretation of Rev 9, they resort to the same kind of arguments employed by others to destroy their historicist approach in the rest of the prophetic Biblical passages.

Once the foundational stones are ripped out from underneath a building, the whole building starts to totter.
This is why J?n Stef?nsson answers many criticisms against the historical dates of the trumpets realizing that the same methods used to destroy the historicist interpretation for the trumpets will also destroy the whole prophetic foundation in all of Daniel and Revelation.

Those who want to find historical and biblical proofs to deny the prophetic fulfillment, will find them. Those who want to find historical and biblical proofs to confirm the prophetic fulfillment, will also find them. Because the apocalyptic prophecies have a similar purpose of the parables, which many could understand, but others who hardened their hearts will not understand.(Matt 13:14-15).

Counterfeit Prophecy

Re: Daniel and Revelation Interpretations [Re: dedication] #195584
03/23/23 05:18 PM
03/23/23 05:18 PM
dedication  Online Content OP
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We are seeing the push to shift Adventist prophetic interpretation away from the historicist interpretation. It's being done in little steps at a time.


Why is this a cause of alarm for many? Aren't the messages coming from this shift very Christ centered and inspirational, and thus so much better? Why the concern????

1. It removes the clear and direct exposure of the identity and development of the beast, the image to the beast, and the Babylonian counterfeit religion, and the reason for the protest against the same.
2. Yes, there is a Christ centeredness in the new messages, which is great and Christ needs to be central! Yet, by leaving the historicist approach the messages become no different than would be welcomed in any religious congregation. God's great unconditional love is emphasized. The concept of a tribulation is acceptable, both to evangelicals and Catholics who also have messages of tribulation and great chastisements. And so all are being prepared to unite on points common to all.
3. It greatly downplays and almost obliterates that facts which these historical interpretations show in the identity and development of the last remnant church of believers, their message, the events that brought them out from Babylon, and the urgent message to remain separate and call others out of Babylon.
4. The sanctuary message, though still mentioned, is distorted, as Christ is placed in the Most Holy Place immediately in these interpretations. 1844 is lost. The two phases are no longer emphasized.


It was the attack on the timelines in the fifth and sixth trumpets.

Didn't E. G. White confirm the fulfillment of the timeline in Rev 9 in her book The Great
Those who read without wanting to change the method of interpretation, will never be convinced that she simply repeated someone else's ideas without being convinced herself that these time lines were fulfilled.

Ellen G. White wrote: ?In the year 1840 another remarkable fulfillment of prophecy excited widespread interest? (GC 334).
Notice, she did NOT write that people, especially Josiah Litch, thought a prophecy was fulfilled, she wrote about a remarkable fulfillment of prophecy!
"ANOTHER remarkable fulfillment."
She was comparing it to other remarkable fulfillments!
What were these other remarkable fulfillments of prophecy?
In that same chapter of the book Great Controversy, on the very same page (334), she is talking about another remarkable fulfillment of prophecy!!!
She describes the signs of the sixth seal (especially the last one of the "falling stars" that took place in 1833).
Previous, on page 304-306 of Great Controversy she deals with considerable detail on the signs of the darkened sun and moon as "striking fulfillment" which had been "definitely pointed out in the Savior's conversation with His disciples upon Olives after describing the long period of trial for the church --the 1260 years ...."

In other places in Great Controversy she speaks of other prophecies being fulfilled about that same time, like on page 433:
The temple of God was opened in heaven and there was seen in His temple the ark of His testament (Rev. 11:19) The ark of God's testament is in the holy of holies....therefore the announcement that the temple of God was opened in heaven and the ark of testament was seen points to the opening of the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary in 1844 as Christ entered there to perform the closing work of the atonement...

So, she believed we are now living in the time of the seventh trumpet which began with the sounding of the seventh trumpet fulfilling the prophecy of the 2300 days of Dan 8 in 1844.

So where are we heading when we take the prophecies out of the historic interpretations and place them in the future?

Soon the scholars heading in that direction will be saying all those other remarkable fulfillments of prophecy were mere descriptions of what people then believed, but that its not really the true interpretation, we now know better???? Of course that also results in placing EGW as only a devotional writer, without any real prophetic gift.


Interestingly, there was debate on this between 1888-1911.
Remember the first completed edition of the book The Great Controversy came out in 1888, and the second one, the one in circulation now, came out in 1911.

During that time E. G. White, had people reviewing the 1888 edition for any mistakes or unclear passages. There were some changes made, mainly adding illustrations, and references to historical writers. (The White Estate has a webpage disclosing the changes)

During that time the issue over the time lines in the fifth and sixth trumpets came up. One of the younger Adventist leaders, advised her to take out or correct her statements because, in his view, the sixth trumpet was not fulfilled in August 11, 1840. But he could not convince her. Instead, in her second edition, E. G. White was still more precise in her portrayal of the event that fulfilled the prophecy.

EARLIER in1883

The General Conference proceedings of the nominating committee in Nov 1883, after reviewing a different proposition concerning the timelines of the trumpets, concluded not to change the church's interpretation as to do so would ?unsettle some of the most important and fundamental points of our faith? (Review and Herald, vol 60, no 47, p. 741).

Ellen White in her final edition of the book the Great Controversy, even after the debate and questioning, recorded the witnessed events of August 11, 1840 as yet "another remarkable fulfillment of prophecy" (p. 334-335),

Re: Daniel and Revelation Interpretations [Re: dedication] #195595
03/27/23 02:14 AM
03/27/23 02:14 AM
Kevin H  Offline
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The trumpets sound when the 6th seal is opened. Mrs. White says that there is much that we will not understand about the mark of the beast until the opening of the 6th seal.

Re: Daniel and Revelation Interpretations [Re: dedication] #195601
03/27/23 09:27 PM
03/27/23 09:27 PM
dedication  Online Content OP
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From what I see in EGW's writings, as well as in the Bible is that the sixth seal and seventh trumpet are contemporary of each other. They compliment each other. They both mark time in what we often refer to as the "time of the end" from about 1798 to Christ's second coming. The seventh trumpet begins to sound in 1844, just after the sixth seal is opened, and together they give information all the way to the second coming.

Yes, I do believe understanding the sixth seal reveals information that will help us understand the mark of the beast.
The sixth seal reveals two distinct camps in which all people are divided just before the second coming.

The first camp would be those with the mark of the beast, who will run for the mountains and beg them to fall upon them when Christ appears. The second group are those who have received the seal of God in their foreheads, have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb and are rejoicing in their deliverance.

Last edited by dedication; 03/27/23 09:31 PM.
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