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Re: Daniel and Revelation Interpretations [Re: Rick H] #195045
10/03/22 08:15 PM
10/03/22 08:15 PM
Daryl  Offline

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When it comes to Daniel & Revelation, the comments in Uriah Smith's book comes to mind and is a recommended reading by Ellen G White.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: Daniel and Revelation Interpretations [Re: Daryl] #195058
10/10/22 08:09 PM
10/10/22 08:09 PM
Kevin H  Online Content
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Originally Posted by Daryl
When it comes to Daniel & Revelation, the comments in Uriah Smith's book comes to mind and is a recommended reading by Ellen G White.


Yes, but we also need to remember that James White was critical that Uriah at times depended more on the current events news than the Bible, and that he wrote those books in the early 1870s and Mrs. White did not add her insights until the 1890s and beyond; Also Uriah Smith complained that so much more has been known since he wrote those books that his job with the Review prevented him from seeing the additional light to be able to update his books. One of the things that Mrs. White did which the church has been hesitant to accept is both direct and implied statements placing the trumpets in the future next to the plagues. Some scholars have seen the trumpets as to what she calls the "little time of trouble" leading up to the close of probation, a time of martyrdom where as people see how God's people face death will cause converts, and the plagues are after the close of probation when none of God's people will die.

Two excellent commentaries on Revelation are George McCready Price "The Time of the End" published just before his death in the early 1960s, but his work is still far a head of most of us. A second is Tonstad's commentary on Revelation. Now, if you already have a strong Adventist background; maybe Uriah Smith's work and Maxwell's God Cares vol. 2, and if you read Price's book; then there is good historical supplementation in both the Anchor Bible on Revelation by Lutheran theologian Craig Koester, he also has a class in the great courses. But again, first get a good Adventist background.

Re: Daniel and Revelation Interpretations [Re: Rick H] #195060
10/11/22 09:50 AM
10/11/22 09:50 AM
Daryl  Offline

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Where did Ellen White say or imply about placing the trumpets in the future next to the plagues?


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: Daniel and Revelation Interpretations [Re: Rick H] #195063
10/12/22 09:07 PM
10/12/22 09:07 PM
dedication  Online Content
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EGW makes several statements which clearly place the trumpets in the historicist timeline -- that is, they cover time from the early Christian church right down to the coming of the Lord.

Those who seek to place them in the future, or give them a dual application, take some statements like:
"Solemn events before us are yet to transpire. Trumpet after trumpet is to be sounded, vial after vial poured out one after another upon the inhabitants of the earth.?
The phrase is quoted in numerous compilations. The original written in a letter is quoted below:
Quote
The angel, the mighty angel from heaven, is to lighten the earth with his glory, while he cries mightily with a loud voice, ?Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen? (Revelation 18:2). Oh, how I wish the church to arise and shine because the glory of the Lord has risen upon her. What can we not do in God if every human agency is doing its very utmost! ?Without Me ye can do nothing? (John 15:5). We would lose faith and courage in the conflict if we were not sustained by the power of God. Every form of evil is to spring into intense activity. Evil angels unite their powers with evil men, and as they have been in constant conflict and attained an experience in the best modes of deception and battle, and have been strengthening for centuries, they will not yield the last great final contest without a desperate struggle. All the world will be on one side or the other of the question. The battle of Armageddon will be fought, and that day must find none of us sleeping. Wide-awake we must be, as wise virgins having oil in our vessels with our lamps. What is this? Grace, Grace.
The power of the Holy Ghost must be upon us, and the Captain of the Lord's host will stand at the head of the angels of heaven to direct the battle. Solemn events before us are yet to transpire. Trumpet after trumpet is to be sounded, vial after vial poured out one after another upon the inhabitants of the earth.
Scenes of stupendous interest are right upon us, and these things will be sure indications of the presence of Him who has directed in every aggressive movement, [the One] who has accompanied the march of His cause through all the ages, and who has graciously pledged Himself to be with His people in all their conflicts to the end of the world. He will vindicate His truth. He will cause it to triumph. He is ready to supply His faithful ones with motives and power of purpose, inspiring them with hope and courage and valor in increased activity as the time is at hand.
Deceptions, delusions, impostures will increase. The cries will come in from every quarter, ?Lo, here is Christ! Lo, there is Christ!? ?But,? said Christ, ?Go ye not after them.? There will be one fierce struggle before the man of sin shall be disclosed to this world, who he is and what has been his work. While the Protestant world is becoming very tender and affectionate toward the man of sin, shall God's people take their place as bold and valiant soldiers of Jesus Christ, to meet the issue which must come, their lives hid with Christ in God? Mystic Babylon has not been sparing in the blood of the saints, and shall we be wide-awake to catch the beams of light which have been shining from the light of the angel who is to brighten the earth with his glory?
Wake up the mighty men. Let the messages of the past 50 years that have been sounding now be seen in their true force and bearing by repetition. Let the same spirit which attended these messages come into our hearts in these last days. These things are not [to] be mentioned with gloom and sadness.
We are [to] think how heaven regards these events, and to be in harmony with the transactions going on in heaven in preparing a people to stand in this, the day of the Lord, and having done all to stand [Ephesians 6:13]. Let the light and power of the sunbeams of righteousness enter into the soul. [Revelation 19:1-6, quoted.]
We are not to be of sad countenance. We are not to mourn and lament because of our trials, although we shall sigh and cry for the abominations done in the land. But I did not think of writing on this strain. I will stop where I am. May the Lord bless you and make you stand firm, wholly on the Lord's side. ?Letter 112, 1890.
Ellen G. White Estate
Washington, D. C., (14 MR 287)
.


The assumption is that sounding trumpets are the same as the seven trumpets of Rev. 8-11, yet they are not so specified. There are many trumpets in scripture. So why deny the several places where Sister White endorsed the Historicist pioneer understanding of the trumpets, in order to make this single statement hold up as placing them in the future?. And why, if she was coming up with a new futuristic interpretation here, would she be telling people to SOUND the messages with greater zeal, of the past 50 years that have been sounding?
What so many seem to fail to realize in the urge to transport long time line prophecy all into the future is that they are greatly weakening the foundation out from under the prophecies, upon which so much of the endtime truths is built, and throwing it into the realms of speculation of just how endtime events might play out.

Re: Daniel and Revelation Interpretations [Re: dedication] #195085
10/19/22 11:52 AM
10/19/22 11:52 AM
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kland  Offline
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Originally Posted by dedication
EGW makes several statements which clearly place the trumpets in the historicist timeline -- that is, they cover time from the early Christian church right down to the coming of the Lord.

The assumption is that sounding trumpets are the same as the seven trumpets of Rev. 8-11, yet they are not so specified.


And likewise, shall we assume, "Let the messages of the past 50 years that have been sounding", refer to those seven trumpets in Revelation? Nothing about "trumpet" in that sentence, either.

When she says trumpet after trumpet and vial after vial, can one be condemned for thinking that sounds very similar to Revelation for the future?

Is it possible that there isn't "dual fulfilment", but perhaps those in the past erred in some passages thinking it applied to their time, but it worked out for the good to get people to start studying?

Daniel and Revelation Interpretations #195088
10/19/22 08:54 PM
10/19/22 08:54 PM
dedication  Online Content
OP
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This dialogue was developing in the Modern Versions affecting Bible Doctrines thread, but since it's not about modern Bible Versions hopefully we can continue the dialogue here.


Originally Posted by Kevin H

(Speaking of Revelation, one of our best commentaries on Revelation is George McCready Price "The Time of the End" Although written in the early 1960s just before his death, it is still superior. Now, there are a few recordings that are floating around that are also useful. Methodist Archaeologist Dr. Jim Fleming has a sermon/lecture on the Beatitudes in which he gives the strong and weak points of both pre and post millennial approaches, and thus has important ideas for anyone studying eschatology for any approach. -- He also has important lectures on the death of Jesus and the Jews, and also what the term "Milk and Honey" meant to the ancient world-- If you can get the "Last Day Events" seminar from the 1976 Southern New England campmeeting. In more detail but sadly has much Adventist tradition that Price and the Campmeeting seminar correct, Richard Nies eschatology.
Now, if you are first having a foundation of the Adventist understanding of Revelation, especially knowing Price, the Campmeeting series and Tonstad's book, then you would probably find some good information in the work of Revelation by Lutheran Craig R Koester, found in the Anchor Bible on Revelation and lectures for "The Great Courses" on the Apocalypse. He is very balanced, but we as Seventh-day Adventists can see even more in his work than he probably sees.
Now, I came across a DVD on Revelation by a Craig Keener where I quickly thought it was Koester so I bought it. Keener's work is not bad but does not make these super-strong recommendations that are here. However Keener did say something outstanding about being lukewarm and how God wants us to be either hot or cold. I had thought and have often heard that the hot and cold are "Either be on fire for the Lord, or else not be interested in religion." Keener points out that the context is of water, and that hot and cold water are two ways of ministry. Hot water can be like a good hot bath and a good hot drink to start out the day or to relax at the end of the day, and maybe a break during the day. Cold water helps to revive us, it helps us as we are dealing with the stress of the job and of the day, keeping us hydrated, cool in dealing with the heat of the day and the strength to continue the stress of the work that needs to be done. Thus Keener pictures God as saying "Instead of being worthless lukewarm water, either be hot water helping the workers start and end the day and to help to relax from the stress and help them rest, or else be cold water, helping in the work and helping to work with the stress.)




Last edited by dedication; 10/19/22 09:04 PM.
Re: Daniel and Revelation Interpretations [Re: kland] #195090
10/20/22 01:03 AM
10/20/22 01:03 AM
dedication  Online Content
OP
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Originally Posted by kland
Originally Posted by dedication
EGW makes several statements which clearly place the trumpets in the historicist timeline -- that is, they cover time from the early Christian church right down to the coming of the Lord.

The assumption is that sounding trumpets are the same as the seven trumpets of Rev. 8-11, yet they are not so specified.


And likewise, shall we assume, "Let the messages of the past 50 years that have been sounding", refer to those seven trumpets in Revelation? Nothing about "trumpet" in that sentence, either.

When she says trumpet after trumpet and vial after vial, can one be condemned for thinking that sounds very similar to Revelation for the future?

Is it possible that there isn't "dual fulfilment", but perhaps those in the past erred in some passages thinking it applied to their time, but it worked out for the good to get people to start studying?


This isn't about condemning anyone.
It's about people sharing their convictions and thoughts as to what it means.

Speaking of Uriah Smith, it is his method, -- seeing the fulfilment of these prophecies unfolding all along history to the final restoration -- that EGW fully endorsed.
But that doesn't mean his every interpretation of the texts in Daniel and Revelation is ultimate truth. I personally think he left the pattern set in Daniel 2,7 and 8 when he described the latter part of Daniel 11. And some of the pioneers, such as James White, also disagreed with him on those verses.

But back to the trumpets.

Here EGW is speaking of the seventh trumpet.
Quote
?The temple of God was opened in Heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament.? [Revelation 11:19.] The ark of God's testament is in the holy of holies, the second apartment of the sanctuary. In the ministration of the earthly tabernacle, which served ?unto the example and shadow of heavenly things,? this apartment was opened only upon the great day of atonement, for the cleansing of the sanctuary. Therefore the announcement that the temple of God was opened in Heaven, and the ark of his testament was seen, points to the opening of the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary, in 1844, as Christ entered there to perform the closing work of the atonement.


Quote
This time, which the Angel {in Rev. 10 between the sixth and seventh trumpet) declares with a solemn oath, is not the end of this world's history, neither of probationary time, but of prophetic time, which would precede the advent of our Lord. That is, the people will not have another message upon definite time. After this period of time, reaching from 1842 to 1844, there can be no definite tracing of the prophetic time. The longest reckoning reaches to the autumn of 1844. {CTr 344.5}

So, according to her, all "definite time" "prophetic time" ended in the 1840's.

So, Kland, you can do as you wish on this, but because after the sixth angel sounded, the Divine Angel tells us there will be no more time prophecy while probations lasts. I cannot put any prophecy that has any time period in it after 1844. The trumpets begin and go in sequence, so if the 5th trumpet has a time period, it sounded prior to 1844, and all previous trumpets sounded before that.

Revelation 10 is about the Millerite experience which led to the understanding of the Investigative Judgment. It is at this point that the angel says time will be no longer. As we read from EGW this Divine Angel is talking about prophetic time, that there is no more prophetic time, no more tracing of definite time. But in Revelation 9:10 the fifth trumpet scorpions are allowed to torture men for a period of 5 months. Here is a specific time period that is spoken of, so it CANNOT refer to a time after 1844. The fifth trumpet sounded prior to 1844.

Re: Daniel and Revelation Interpretations [Re: dedication] #195118
10/24/22 06:49 PM
10/24/22 06:49 PM
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kland  Offline
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Dedication, perhaps you could give a brief background as to what was happening then, why she made the statement she did about another message upon definite time.

Re: Daniel and Revelation Interpretations [Re: dedication] #195121
10/25/22 01:58 AM
10/25/22 01:58 AM
dedication  Online Content
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It is the Divine Angel that tells us that time will be no longer. Revelation 10:6 Not EGW.

The historical sequence of the trumpets is part of the "platform" upon which our church is established.
After the sixth trumpet, that Divine angel in very solemn language announces the time had ended, there shall be time NO LONGER.
In the very next verse the same angel announces that the seventh trumpet is still to sound. Revelation 10:7
Obviously, this angel is NOT talking about earth's clock no longer ticking. For after making a very solemn pronouncement that "time will be no longer" HE gives a prophecy ( a symbolic object lesson) of things still to take place.

And yes, at the end of the longest time line -- the 2300 day/years, (which ended after the sixth trumpet) there was a movement all over the world as people opened the book of Daniel. Eagerly they "ate" the message that time would be no longer, and it was VERY SWEET --they were sure Jesus was coming in 1844. But then it became bitter -- why -- even though the Angel said that time shall be no longer, their work was to "prophecy again" about the temple of God, measuring it. Go beyond the court yard fo the temple (the Gentiles already trod it underfoot for 1260 years) To me, the call to measure the temple of God and the worshipers of God, is a clear call that they were to spread the news that Christ was moving into the last phase of His ministry in the heavenly sanctuary, preparing the guest list to the GREAT WEDDING FEAST!!!!





Yes, EGW refers to this chapter:
The seventh trumpet we are told by EGW in Great Controversy page 433 begins in 1844

As to EGW's quotes on "time no longer"? She made several of them at different times, because people were forever rearranging numbers from fulfilled prophecies and other sources to set time for various endtime events especially the second coming. I don't know how she could have said it any plainer that this was not to be done, yet people will always wiggle around them??? They did back then and they still are? Why??

Quote
This time, which the Angel {in Rev. 10) declares with a solemn oath, is not the end of this world's history, neither of probationary time, but of prophetic time, which would precede the advent of our Lord. That is, the people will not have another message upon definite time. After this period of time, reaching from 1842 to 1844, there can be no definite tracing of the prophetic time. The longest reckoning reaches to the autumn of 1844. {CTr 344.5}


1. no more prophetic time
2. no more message upon definite time.
3. no more tracing of prophetic time
4.Ellen White's statement says prophetic time ended in 1844

People will not be tracing any more timeline between 1844 and the awesome deliverance of the second coming.
{And no, the 1000 years do not occur before the second coming, they occur after. so there is no problem there)



So back to the trumpets.
The fifth trumpet has a definite time period of five months (5 X 30 = 150 day/years) . These prophetic time lines took place before 1844, Whether you think them literal days or symbolic in years, putting them in the future prior to Christ's coming, is still tracing a prophetic timeline in the future, which I don't see as the right way to interpret Daniel or Revelation.

Re: Daniel and Revelation Interpretations [Re: dedication] #195123
10/25/22 12:12 PM
10/25/22 12:12 PM
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kland  Offline
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Originally Posted by dedication

Quote
This time, which the Angel {in Rev. 10) declares with a solemn oath, is not the end of this world's history, neither of probationary time, but of prophetic time, which would precede the advent of our Lord. That is, the people will not have another message upon definite time. After this period of time, reaching from 1842 to 1844, there can be no definite tracing of the prophetic time. The longest reckoning reaches to the autumn of 1844. {CTr 344.5}

Dedication, perhaps you could give a brief background as to what was happening then, why she made the statement she did about another message upon definite time.

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