We see several text of the twenty four elders in scripture..
Revelation 4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, 11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Revelation 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. 9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation.

So what do these twenty four elders mean and where do they come from. The Levitical priesthood was divided into twenty-four courses and it was there at the time of Jesus. We see its continuance in Zacharias in Luke 1:5-9, when the angel came to tell him while he was in the temple that he would have a son, who was John the Baptist.

"5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
7 And they had no child, because that Elisabeth was barren, and they both were now well stricken in years.
8 And it came to pass, that while he executed the priest's office before God in the order of his course,
9 According to the custom of the priest's office, his lot was to burn incense when he went into the temple of the Lord." Luke 1:5-9.

John in Revelation, saw four and twenty elders seated upon four and twenty seats, and they worshiped the Lamb, saying, ?Thou hast redeemed us to God by Thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; and hast made us unto our God kings and priests.? (Rev. 4:4; 5:8-10) In this we see the antitype of the twenty-four courses of priests. The chiefs, or elders, of each course have seats of honor, and they are kings and priests after the order of Melchizedek. Now we see the following in Matthew 27:50-53..

"50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many." Matthew 27:50-53.

We see in Matthew the first fruits of those who rise from the dead after the resurrection of Christ, do they constitute the four and twenty elders? We see in Ephesians a clue: ?Wherefore he saith, When he [Christ] ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.? The marginal reading is, he led a ?multitude of captives.? Eph.4:8. Is there a answer hidden in plain sight?
Modify message

I'm sorry Rick, but while this is a very popular speculation, at least among Adventists, at both Atlantic Union College (an Adventist college) and at the Jerusalem Center for Biblical Studies, the professors gave some very strong Biblical arguments that the 24 Elders are how heaven ACTIVELY communicates with the church on earth: The testimony of the 12 tribes and the testimony of the 12 apostles, who's testimony is preserved in the Holy Bible.

We don't know who the 24 elders are, I would say, both interpretations above are speculation, both based on possible evidence, but still speculative.

The Adventist pioneers, James White, Stephen Haskell, Uriah Smith all seem to agree that the 24 elders are individuals who have been redeemed from earth, and probably ascended with Christ to heaven after Christ's resurrection.

There are others that say the 24 elders are representatives from the unfallen worlds (the Adams of other worlds) who are carefully following the progression of sin and God's dealing with sin on earth.
--All the other worlds were affected by satan's rebellion and charges. All are very interested in how God deals with the issues and see HIS Character being vindicated beyond all their expectations.
This passage from Ellen White is quoted by that group:.


The problem is -- every explanation presented has problems that don't match all the descriptions of the elders.


EGW White calls the 24 elders, ANGELS.

In referring to Rev. 5:5 where one of the elders tells John "weep not", she writes


And in another passage, dealing with Revelation 7:13-14 where one of the elders asks John, who are these who are dressed in white robes, she writes:


In Revelation 5:8 the twenty-four elders have censors or vials containing the prayers of the saints.
Some see the following quote as connecting the elders with censors as the highest Angels:



However, the term "angels" can have more than one meaning as well.

"

I have many friends from AUC, and never came across that.

Well, much like the sanctuary in the wilderness was patterned according to a heavenly model, it could be the 24 elders were according to what was already in heaven. Will have to research further...

As this is also how I think I understand it, we also need to research further into that.

Questions raised on each interpretation:

24 elders are the resurrected saints that ascended with Christ
This view has many strong points. But questions are raised:

1. Both the 24 elders AND the four living creatures voice the praise song, "You were slain and have redeemed US to God by Your blood".
Comparing the living creatures to Ezekiel's depictions, these are cherubim or seraphim (angels) not redeemed people. If the four living creatures were not included as singing the song, it would be a strong indication the 24 elders are redeemed.
Some Greek students say the word "us" can be "them" and is thus translated in several Bible versions.

2. Crowns and white robes, and harps, all things promised to those who overcome and are redeemed, they are strong points for this interpretation. But one can argue that angels also have these. Especially in the book "Early Writings" by Ellen White we read: "The news of man's fall spread through heaven. Every harp was hushed. The angels cast their crowns from their heads in sorrow" EW 148 and several other similar paragraphs in that book.

3. Some regard Revelation 5 as Christ's triumphal entry into heaven as conqueror over sin and death at His ascension. The great sadness of John because no one could open the scroll, signifying that up to that point the whole plan of salvation was not yet ratified until the one slain for mankind's redemption appeared. The 24 elders being already among the heavenly hosts waiting eagerly to welcome Him as He now begins His work as the mediator of the covenant, would not be just arriving.

The 24 elders are representatives of other worlds.

1. This view is rather weak. It's based on one quote from EGW stating that the "sons of God" were present in the heavenly assemble welcoming Christ when He ascended to heaven, and coupling that thought with the gathering of the sons of God in Job 1 and 2 where satan joined as the representative from this earth.
2. Would Representatives from other worlds be engaged in the work outlined for the 24 elders in Revelation, having censors with the prayers of the saints, or explaining things to prophets like John?
3. They are not really permanent residents in the heavenly throne room, their work would be connecting and representing their own world with heaven.
The Bible speaks very little of them.

The 24 elders are symbolic of heaven's communication system with earth through Old and New Testament, etc.

I'm not really knowledgeable on this view. It's one that was more popular in non-Adventist circles, but is now creeping in to Adventist circles, as Kevin pointed out.

In Revelation 11 we have the two witnesses who are symbolic of the Old and New Testament, so the concept is not totally unfamiliar. Yet the difference between the two witness and the 24 elders is quite large.
All the actions of the two witnesses can be traced in Biblical stories or events. Their witness is linked to Bible stories. The clues in their description are strong these two witnesses represent the Bible.

On the other hand, the 24 elders are far more personal. They explain things to John, they interact with him on a personal level. They react and interact with things happening in heaven.
They are NOT just symbols, they are beings going about their work.
I'm not comfortable in spiritualizing them away, even if we don't understand everything about them.

The earthly priesthood as a type of things in heaven

This includes the idea of a special group of high angels that are the antitype of the 24 chief priests over the 24 courses of priests in the earthly sanctuary.
In Chron. 24 we find there were 24 common courses of priests and there were twenty-four chief men sometimes called governors of the sanctuary, over these these courses of priests.

The 24 elders have censors "golden vials full of odors which are the prayers of the saints".
They work with Christ in His priestly ministry in an intercessory capacity.

This view is often also attributed to redeemed saints as filling this role as well. But EGW does call the elder talking with John, a "strong angel" thus a special group of strong angels could be the antitype of the 24 chief governors or priests in the earthly sanctuary.

The objections to this view"
1. Jesus is our high priest, we don't need any more priests in heaven.

Then what can be considered the correct view?

Some things we, as finite beings, don't fully understand. Therefore it's rather pointless to become dogmatic about these things. One thing we do know, is that God has a great plan of salvation at work for us, which involves a lot more than we realize. There are 24 elders with censors containing our prayers, we can be sure our prayers all reach heaven.
Heaven is extremely interested in saving us!

However, the main objection to the first interpretation to the 24 elders being resurrected saints, my be resolved by going back to chapter 4 in Revelation

The four living Creatures, who are definitely seraphim, may just be LEADING the outburst of praise , while 24 elders respond.



Though in chapter 5, it does say they all fall down before him.

Notice the part " and cast their crowns before the throne", that is very telling..

"
On the other hand, the 24 elders are far more personal. They explain things to John, they interact with him on a personal level. They react and interact with things happening in heaven.
They are NOT just symbols, they are beings going about their work.
I'm not comfortable in spiritualizing them away, even if we don't understand everything about them."

As you said, they explain things to John and interact with him on a personal level. How are things in heaven explained to us? Is it not through the testimony of the 12 tribes and the 12 apostles? Who gives us "Present Truth" when it is time for us to know it? Is is not the Holy Spirit communicating through the testimony of the 12 tribes and the 12 apostles?

The 24 Elders in Revelation

The setting of Revelation 4 and 5, the 24 elders:
In Ezekiel chapter we find God?s people sent to exile in Babylon. But we don?t find God saying ?Good Riddance? but that God leaves to go into exile with his people. We find a movable throne of God were we find the 4 beasts representing angels. In Revelation we read about the angels of the churches, and Prophets talk about mighty angels that work with them. In Daniel 10: 12-13, we are told how the angel was working on the heart of the prince of Persia, who resisted him for 21 days, thus delaying his coming to Daniel with the answer Daniel was concerned about.

As the Hebrews marched from Egypt to the promised land they camped as a square with the sanctuary in the middle, the Levites, including the priests, who taught the people messages from God camped in a square around the tabernacle, living between the Sanctuary and the other tribes which were camped again as a square. The middle tribe on each of the four sides of this square had animals that represented them. Ephraim the ox, Dan the Eagle, Judah the lion, and Ruben the man. These symbols also represented all the tribes on that side of the tabernacle. The stones on the high priest?s breastplate was not in the tic-tac-toe shape we have it in our pictures, but they were laid out around the heart of the high priest. The high priest?s heart was where the sanctuary was, and an open square and the 12 stones were a square around the heart as the Hebrews camped around the sanctuary. This symbolized the high priest carrying God?s people on his heart. This symbolized Jesus carrying us on his heart.








Naphtali Eagle
Dan Asher
Manasseh Levites/Priests Zeblum
Ox
Ephraim Levites/Priests Tabernacle Levites/Priests Lion
Judah
Benjaman Levites/Priests Issachar
Simeon Rubin
Man Gad


This is the structure of Revelation 4 and 5, the picture of the Hebrews, God?s people traveling in the exodus from Egypt to the promised land. We have in the middle were the sanctuary was, in Revelation we find God?s throne with phrases referring God the Father and God the Holy Spirit. Then you have 24 elders who has replaces the Levites/priests, and we naturally find the 4 beasts, just as the camp of the exodus had these 4 beasts representing the 4 sides of God?s people traveling from Egypt to the promised land, and is symbolized in Ezekiel that God?s people in exile are not abandoned. Just as each church in Revelation has it?s angel, so each side of God?s people in exodus from Egypt but not yet in the promised land, and as the angels for these four sides of God?s people out of the promised land during the Babylonian exile.

Eagle
24 Elders



Ox


24 Elders God?s throne, symbols of the trinity: 7 Spirits (or perfect Spirit, the Holy Spirit) the lamb


24 Elders


Lion
24 Elders
Man


The gospels has 24 Sadduceen Elders giving a false testimony about Jesus. In Revelation we find the heavenly counterpart of these 24 men. Instead of the 24 false witnesses telling lies about Jesus, in Revelation we find 24 Elders who gives the true witness of Jesus, and just as the Levites/priests brought the message from the sanctuary to the 4 creatures, God?s people in exodus, freed from Egypt but not yet in the promised land, so the 24 elders communicate what is happening in heaven to the 4 creatures who again represent both the angels for the 4 sides and the people these angels minister to of God?s people either in exodus or exile.

The job of the 24 Sadducee elders, 24 priests, was to present the truth about God to the people, but instead of doing their job they instead gave a false testimony about Jesus. In Revelation we find a their heavenly counter parts, 24 elders camped between God?s throne and the 4 beasts who represent God?s people in exodus between Egypt and the promised land. but these 24 elders are giving God?s people in the exodus the true testimony about Jesus. We thus see one significant reason for there to be 24 elders If the John of Revelation is the same John of the gospel, these 24 elders would have a special significance as he saw the 24 elders giving the false witness of Jesus. Just as the 7 churches have their angel, and the 4 sides of God?s people when they were either in transit from Egypt to the promised land, or outside of the promised land in exile, so we see a oneness of 24 mighty angels who worked with prophets throughout history, especially the prophets who wrote the Bible. But we also see these 24 mighty angels trying to work with the hearts of the 24 Sadducees to proclaim the truth about Jesus instead of telling the lies about Jesus that they choose to let come out of their lips.

We have two sets of 12 in the Bible, the one is the witness of the 12 tribes and second, the witness of the 12 Apostles. We have saved the record of their witness in the Old and New Testaments, and through the Bible we get the truth about Jesus and how heaven communicates with us on earth. We thus have in Revelation 4 and 5 God?s throne, the 24 elders replacing the Levites and priests, the testimony of the 12 tribes and 12 apostles, the word of God, to the 4 living creatures which is God?s people who have been delivered from sin but on our way to the promised land. The 24 elders is simply God communicating to his church through the scriptures.

There is sadness in heaven because no one can open the scroll. But then one of the elders tells John what is happening. When all looks hopeless, the Bible tells us what Jesus has done and is doing. The Bible teaches that all is not lost, the elder tells John that the lion of Judah, is able to open the scroll. When John looks up to see this great powerful hero, what greets his eyes is the lamb that was slain by violence. The false elder cried ?Crucify him!? the true witness tells us the implications of Jesus? crucifixion. The true elder points John to the true lion hero, a lamb killed by violence, only he is able to open the seals and the scroll. The scroll appears to be history. Had Jesus not died for us there would be no more history, but Jesus is able to open the scrolls and history continues. If Jesus did not die, it would have shown that God had some selfishness in him and was unworthy of our love and worship. His life giving relationship would have been worthless. If he had not died, in heaven Enoch, Moses and Elijah would not have faced a firing squad of angels and the rest of the universe just move on as earth is destroyed. If selfishness, sin, was found in God it would have destroyed the entire universe. But the lamb killed by violence has won the victory! Because of him and this event, history can continue. The great lion hero, the lamb killed by violence is worthy to break open the seals and unroll the scroll.

Now just because history goes on, does not mean that what follows would be peaceful. Like the Hebrews in the wilderness, and the exile, we are delivered from sin and death, but not yet home. Different commentaries can teach different aspects and applications of the seals. Some apply the seals as a description of the church through history, others point out that it can also apply to hardships in general, as we go through cycles of warfare, bloodshed, famine and death. We can learn from both. The 4 living creatures say ?Come? because it is God?s people who are going through these things, including martyrdom. Sides will be chosen as to whether we will follow God or not. But also, our knowledge of truth is progressive. At different times in history there is present truth. We learn the truth from the Bible, the 24 elders. Even if there is a message from prophets, they are to base their authority and message from the Bible. The Bible is not like, say the story of Goldilocks and the 3 bears where we read the story and know the story and it ends there. The Bible is the living word of God, who brings to the church what God actually wants the church to know at that time in history. Thus we always need to study the Bible as we will always be learning more. When it is time for heaven to send us a new message, the Holy Spirit will point it out to different people here and there who are studying the pages of scripture.

Sadly the two charts I put in to show how the Hebrews camped around the tabernacle and how Revelation 4 and 5 are set did not work and you only have the words. So please let me picture in words:

When the Hebrews camped in the wilderness there was the sanctuary in the middle. In a squire on all four sides the Levites, including the priests camped. Then as a larger square around them was everyone else by their tribes. The four sides were represented by the Lion, the Man, the Ox and the Eagle.

In Ezekiel, as God's people went into exile, we find God traveling into exile with his people on a throne with angels with these same faces. In Revelation we are told of the angels unto the churches. This indicates that Ezekiel's angels were representing the 4 sides of the camp in the wilderness; and that ultimately the 4 living creatures are a representative of God's people either delivered from Egypt but not yet in Canaan, and God's people away from Canaan in exile.

Thus, the 4 living creatures are us, God's church delivered through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus, but we are traveling through this sinful world, we are not yet in heaven.

Revelation 4 and 5 is a repeat of how the Hebrews camped in the wilderness and symbolic of when in exile. Only in Revelation 4 and 5 we don't have the Tabernacle in clear sight for us to camp around. Revelation 4 and 5 had God's throne, and the Trinity sitting in the true Tabernacle in heaven..

Thus God's in heaven. We the 4 living creatures are in exile on earth traveling to our true home. The square of the Levites including the Priests has been replaced with the 24 Elders. It was the job of the Levites, especially the Priests to bring messages from God in His Tabernacle to the people, the 4 living creatures. In Revelation 4 and 5 it is the 24 Elders doing the job of the priests in letting God's people know what God wants them to know.

I don't have the time to share the evidence now; but looking at the history of Judaism in Jesus' day, the evidence indicates that Jesus inquiry of the Sanhedrin was only before 23 Sadducee priests and the high priest for a total of 24 elders. These 24 elders were to teach the truth about Jesus. Instead of doing their job of giving the truth about Jesus, they brought Jesus to Pilate and told lies about Jesus.

John saw these 24 elders lie about Jesus. If this is the same John who wrote Revelation, he gets to see the heavenly counterparts of these 24 elders who were supposed to tell the truth about Jesus but ended up telling lies about Jesus. Thus we have the heavenly 24 Elders who constantly praise God, constantly tells the truth about Jesus, and this truth about Jesus causes the 4 living creatures/the church in exodus towards heaven to sing praises to God.

Regarding the charts problem, did you try to use HTML code, or some other type of code?

No, not that computer literate. I only did a table on my word processing program that did not cut and paste here. Thank you.

Just a question:
Are the four living creatures and the 24 elders symbolic or literal?

The Lamb is symbolic of Christ and His sacrifice.
The Lion is symbolic of Christ taking the throne Judah, winning back mankinds lost inheritance.
The scroll is symbolic (I highly doubt all the councils, commands and history of earth could be contained in a literal scroll)

It seems the 24 elders are there as the symbolic leaders and representatives of the saints. It's easy to think of them as literal resurrect saints, ascending to heaven with Jesus when He returned 2000 years ago.
Yet the 4 living creatures sing the same song of Christ having redeemed "us" by His blood.
Could their strange appearance by symbolic?

Face of an eagle, an ox, a lion, also a figure of a man, designated as having "dominion" over the living creatures of the earth in Genesis ch1 v28. Some have suggested their symbolism is that they represent the future glorification of man along with all the living creatures of the world.

Any thoughts

Mrs. White writes a lot about the portrayals and symbols through out Revelation. We tend to be inconsistent, if it is something that we do not see in the natural world we then say it is symbolic, but if it is something we have seen or could in the right conditions see, then we make it literal.

The idea that the 24 elders are those who rose with Jesus seems to me to be speculation. I like what was presented to me in school about how the 4 living creatures were the four sides of the camp of Israel as they traveled from Egypt to Canaan. Then angels representing the four sides became a symbol in Ezekiel of God going into exile with His people. In both cases the 4 living creatures represent God's people not yet home. Thus in Revelation I understand the 4 living creatures to continue these two Old Testament symbols of God's people not yet home, and thus we are traveling through history heading towards home when Jesus will come to take us back.

As we compare the camp of Israel in the Sinai to the description of Revelation 4 and 5, we find in the Exodus the sanctuary was among the people, showing God's physical presence. In Revelation 4 and 5 God is physically present in heaven. But the 4 living creatures are in exodus heading home but not yet home. In the Exodus you had the Levites, including the Priests between the Sanctuary and the people, and who brought messages from God in the sanctuary to the people. In Revelation 4 and 5 the Levites are replaced by the 24 elders, and thus their job is to bring direct messages from God in His temple in heaven to His people traveling through history on earth.

The number 24 also stands for a quorum of the 70 elders. The Greek word for the court of Jewish elders was "Sanhedrin". What history tells us about the Sadducee courts during the second temple and what the Gospels tell us about Jesus before the Sanhedrin match, indicating that Jesus was only before 23 Sadducees and the Hight Priest for 24 elders. Their job was to teach the truth about Jesus, but they rejected their job and told lies about Jesus. Just as Ezekiel had 4 angels representing God's literal people in exile, so the 4 continue to represent God's people not being home. And the 24 elders are the heavenly counterpart to the 24 Sadducees, and they give the truth about Jesus. And also the 24 comes from two groups of 12: the testimony of the 12 tribes (the Old Testament) and the 12 apostles (the New Testament). And the message of Revelation 4 and 5 is that God does not leave us as orphans here, Heaven directly communicates with His people on earth through the 24 elders.

Interesting concepts, Kevin.
The four living creatures in Revelation 4 & 5 do seem to have connections with the four living creatures in Ezekiel 1 & 10, as well as with the ensigns on the four sides of Israel's wilderness camp
The man, eagle, ox, and lion, are a part of each depiction.

In each depiction, those creatures surround the throne of God.
In Ezekiel 1 & 10 the four living creatures are carrying a platform of sapphire stone, upon which was the likeness of a throne.

Rev. 4:6-7, ?and before the throne [is] a sea of glass like to crystal, and in the midst of the throne, and round the throne, are four living creatures, full of eyes before and behind; 7 and the first living creature like a lion, and the second living creature like a calf, and the third living creature has the face as a man, and the fourth living creature like an eagle flying.? (YLT)

Compare with Ezekiel?s description:

Ez. 1:5, 10; ?And out of its midst is a likeness of four living creatures, and this is their appearance; a likeness of man to them,? ?.. ?10 As to the likeness of their faces, the face of a man, and the face of a lion, toward the right [are] to them four, and the face of an ox on the left [are] to them four, and the face of an eagle [are] to them four.? (YLT)
Ezekiel identifies them as the cherubim Ez. 1:15, 20:

Cherubim are represented in the wilderness tabernacle over the mercy seat in the holy of holies (Ex. 25: 18-20), which is a representation of the throne of God.

Ex. 25:22, ?And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.? (KJV)

And yes, the Israelites camped in four sections surrounding the four sides of the wilderness sanctuary, three tribes on one side had the ensign of a lion, another three tribes on another side had the ensign of an ox, another three tribes on a 3rd side had the ensign of an eagle, and another three tribes on fourth side and had the ensign of a man.

The Levites, the priestly tribe (who were a 13th tribe since Joseph's descendants had two tribes), camped around the tabernacle as a buffer ring of protection between the sanctuary and the Israelites.

Numbers 1:53
But the Levites shall pitch round about the tabernacle of testimony, that there be no wrath upon the congregation of the children of Israel: and the Levites shall keep the charge of the tabernacle of testimony.

They were travelling to the promised land. Their camp an illustration of later realities in heaven.

In Ezekiel we see another illustration prefiguring the heavenly sanctuary.

In Ezekiel however, the priesthood is no longer doing their duty, they are not standing between (as priests) the people and a holy God, as intercessors. The priests have corrupted themselves with other gods and magical arts (see Ez.8). As have the majority of people.

The whole depiction here is that wrath is about to fall on Israel.


10:6 And it came to pass, that when he had commanded the man clothed with linen, saying, Take fire from between the wheels, from between the cherubims; then he went in, and stood beside the wheels.
10:7 And one cherub stretched forth his hand from between the cherubims unto the fire that [was] between the cherubims, and took [thereof], and put [it] into the hands of him that was clothed with linen: who took it, and went out.

Comparisons with Rev. 8:2-5 are evident.

A sealing work was taking place:

Ezekiel 9:3 And he called to the man clothed with linen, which [had] the writer's inkhorn by his side;
9:4 And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.

When he was finished, terrible destruction came upon the city.

But yes, God followed those who escaped the destruction and now lived in exile.

Ezek. 11:16 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Although I have cast them far off among the heathen, and although I have scattered them among the countries, yet will I be to them as a little sanctuary in the countries where they shall come.
11:17 Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.
11:18 And they shall come thither, and they shall take away all the detestable things thereof and all the abominations thereof from thence.
11:19-20 And I will give them a new heart and put a new spirit within them, and take away the stony heart of flesh...that they may walk in my statues, and I will be their God and they shall be my people.

Might be interesting to see how these elders and living creatures connect with the rest of Revelation.

ELDERS
5:5 one of the elders comforts John
5:8 worship God and the Lamb
7:11 worship God when they see multitude of saved
7:13 one of the elders asks & answers question about white robed saints
11:17 worship God when Jesus receives His kingdom after the seventh trumpet
14:3 they listen, but don't sing, the song of the 144,000
19:4 worship God when Babylon is judged

FOUR LIVING CREATURES
4:8 Constantly saying "Holy, Holy,Holy Lord God Almighty"
4:9 Lead out in praising God
5:8 Worship the Lamb
6:1 Each beast introduces one of the four seals dealing with four horses, but not the other three seals.
7:11 Worship God when they see multitude of saved.
14:3 they listen, but don't sing, the song of the 144,000
15:7 One of the beasts gives the seven angels their bowls of plagues.
19:4 worship God when Babylon is judged

dedication, WOW!!!! Excellent study. I'll be using these posts. Listening to the professors at AUC helped me to see this, and Fleming's lecture about the death of Jesus and the Jews, giving the historical context of the Sadducee courts within the Sanhedrin, and it's connection to the 24 Elders even made it clearer.

Other suggestions I hear some may be held as well as the above, but most of what I hear seems to be speculation.

The 4 living beasts is God's church in exodus/exile. God actively communicates with with His church on earth through the testimony of the 12 tribes (the TANAK) and the testimony of the 12 apostles. As we consistently study the Bible, the Holy Spirit will point out things that we will need to know at the time we need to know it. And we will learn it from the pages of scripture.

Have to look at the "Four Living Creatures" a bit deeper it seems, most interesting.

Here is from the lesson this week...
"Who are these 24 elders? In ancient Israel there were 24 divisions in the Levitical priesthood. These priests represented the people before God. In 1 Peter 2:9, the apostle declares that New Testament believers are a ?chosen generation,? ?a royal priesthood.? These 24 elders could, perhaps, represent all the redeemed that one day will rejoice around the throne of God; or, perhaps, they represent the people resurrected at Christ?s resurrection and who ascended to heaven with Him (Matt. 27:52, Eph. 4:7, 8).

Either way, this is good news. There are some of the redeemed from the earth around the throne of God. They faced temptations just as we face them. Through the grace of Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit, they overcame. They are clothed in ?white robes,? signifying the righteousness of Christ that covers and cleanses their sins. They have a golden crown upon their heads, signifying they are victorious in the battle with evil and are part of heaven?s royal line of faith-filled believers."... https://ssnet.org/lessons/23b/less05.html

While studying the lesson this jumped out at me in Revelation 5..
"1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth."

and compare verses 9 and 10 with Revelation 1:5 and 1:6...
"1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen."

Taking the view of the 24 elders as literal resurrect saints, ascended to heaven with Jesus when He returned 2000 years ago, is the road that has become fairly popular, and the translation in KJV tends to support the view. The fact that they sit on thrones indicates that they reign with Christ, something promised to the redeemed in various verses.

Yet the 4 living creatures sing the same song of Christ having redeemed "us" by His blood.


See --
the four beasts AND the four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb...And they sang a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

If the 24 elders are literal saved people, are the 4 living creatures also redeemed people?.
And I guess I have questions on that.|
Some say that the word "us" should have been "them" and the Greek would support that word as well.

I see the Bible versions that say them and they are based on the 'Alexandrian Text' which is not a good manuscript for prophecy to say the least. Here is Youngs Literal Translation on this..

Revelation 5:8-14
Young's Literal Translation
8 And when he took the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell before the Lamb, having each one harps and golden vials full of perfumes, which are the prayers of the saints,

9 and they sing a new song, saying, `Worthy art thou to take the scroll, and to open the seals of it, because thou wast slain, and didst redeem us to God in thy blood, out of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation,

10 and didst make us to our God kings and priests, and we shall reign upon the earth.'

11 And I saw, and I heard the voice of many messengers round the throne, and the living creatures, and the elders -- and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands --

12 saying with a great voice, `Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive the power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing!'

13 and every creature that is in the heaven, and in the earth, and under the earth, and the things that are upon the sea, and the all things in them, heard I saying, `To Him who is sitting upon the throne, and to the Lamb, [is] the blessing, and the honour, and the glory, and the might -- to the ages of the ages!'

14 and the four living creatures said, `Amen!' and the twenty-four elders fell down and they bow before Him who is living to the ages of the ages.

So the four living creatures represent heavenly beings who speak about humans, and the only thing I found was this.. "The four living creatures symbolize the exalted beings who serve God as His agents and the guardians of His throne (Ps. 99:1). Their wings point symbolically to their swiftness in carrying out God?s orders, and their eyes point to their intelligence. Their presence, together with the 24 elders and a myriad of angels around the throne (Rev. 5:11), shows that both heaven and earth are represented in the throne room."

and Selected Quotes from Ellen G. White
He who catches a glimpse of the matchless love of Christ counts all other things as loss, and looks upon Him as the chiefest among ten thousand and as the one altogether lovely. As seraphim and cherubim look upon Christ, they cover their faces with their wings. Their own perfection and beauty are not displayed in the presence and glory of their Lord. Then how improper it is for men to exalt themselves! Let them rather be clothed with humility, cease all strife for supremacy, and learn what it means to be meek and lowly of heart. He who contemplates God?s glory and infinite love, will have humble views of himself, but by beholding the character of God, he will be changed into His divine image.?That I May Know Him, p. 175.

?And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.? Isaiah 6:3.

These holy beings sang forth the praise and glory of God with lips unpolluted with sin. The contrast between the feeble praise which he [Isaiah] had been accustomed to bestow upon the Creator and the fervid praises of the seraphim, astonished and humiliated the prophet. . . .

The seraphim before the throne are so filled with reverential awe in beholding the glory of God that they do not for an instant look upon themselves with self-complacency, or in admiration of themselves or one another. Their praise and glory are for the Lord of Hosts. . . . They are fully satisfied to glorify God; and in His presence, beneath His smile of approbation, they wish for nothing more. In bearing His image, in doing His service and worshiping Him, their highest ambition is fully reached.?Conflict and Courage, p. 233.

In the year that King Uzziah died, Isaiah was permitted in vision to look into the holy place, and into the holy of holies in the heavenly sanctuary. The curtains of the innermost sanctuary were drawn aside, and a throne high and lifted up, towering as it were to the very heavens, was revealed to his gaze. An indescribable glory emanated from a personage on the throne, and His train filled the temple, as His glory will finally fill the earth. Cherubim were on either side of the mercy seat, . . . and they glowed with the glory that enshrouded them from the presence of God. . . . These holy beings sang forth the praise and glory of God.?Reflecting Christ, p. 338.

The crowning glory of Christ?s attributes is His holiness. The angels bow before Him in adoration, exclaiming, ?Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty.? Revelation 4:8. He is declared to be glorious in His holiness. Study the character of God. By beholding Christ, by seeking Him in faith and prayer, you may become like Him.?Counsels to Parents, Teachers, and Students, p. 402.

https://sabbath-school.adventech.io/en/2019-01/04/the-heavenly-assembly-in-the-throne-room/

And you see what it says on the 24 elders..."The description of the elders in Revelation 4:4 shows that they are not angelic beings. The title ?elders? in the Bible always is used for humans. In contrast to angels, who invariably stand in God?s presence, these elders sit on thrones. The white robes they wear are the attire of God?s faithful people (Rev. 3:4, 5). The victory crowns (from Greek stephanos, Rev. 4:4) on their heads are reserved exclusively for the victorious saints (James 1:12). All of these details suggest that the 24 elders are glorified saints.

The number 24 is symbolic: it consists of two sets of 12, the number 12 in the Bible being a symbol of God?s people. The 24 elders could represent God?s people in their totality, from both the Old and New Testament times. The number 24 also mirrors the chiefs of the 24 divisions of priests who took turns serving in the earthly temple services (1 Chron. 24:1?19).

The fact that the 24 elders were never mentioned before in the Bible implies that they are a new group in the heavenly throne room. They perhaps are the ones who were raised from the dead at the time of Jesus? death (Matt. 27:51?53).

If so, these 24 elders who ascended to heaven with Jesus become representatives of humanity, to witness the fairness in God?s actions in the realization of the plan of salvation. In Revelation 5:9, the 24 elders, along with the four living creatures (vs. 8), fall down in worship before the Lamb who was slain and yet lives. Together, they sing a new song, extolling the Lamb as the One who is worthy, because: ? ?You were slain and have redeemed us to God by Your blood out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and have made us kings and priests to our God; and we shall reign on the earth? ? (Rev. 5:8?10, NKJV)."

Now here is something that makes sense on the four living creatures but I need to study it further...

"?Four living creatures.? Ezekiel 1?10 reveals that God has a movable throne. He comes riding on a
chariot, sitting upon His throne, made portable by the wheels of the four living creatures. These
creatures are similar, if not the same, as the creatures found in Revelation 4.
The throne is currently in the Holy Place, prepared for the arrival of Jesus in the heavenly sanctuary. "
https://camelbackchurch.net/site/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/Revelation_4-7.pdf

Concerning the 24 elders. I realize the popular view is that they are humans, but I just don't feel real comfortable with it.

1. I don't think the Greek is any different for the word "us" in the Alexandrian Text or the Received text. It's "hemus", which is usually translated "us, we, us-ward, our". The Greek pronoun "aut?s, ow-tos" is far more flexable and could be "them, their, they, him, her, myself, themself" etc. But it is not the word used.

2. Yes, all the hosts of heaven praise God! That is all through the bible. And obviously the four living creatures are full of praise for God. But, they are heavenly creatures, not human.
Yet they also sing "a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred...

3. The article in above post said, "The description of the elders in Revelation 4:4 shows that they are not angelic beings. But that is a supposition, not a fact statement.
The title "elders" in the Bible always is used for humans.
Well yes, elder in the Bible generally means an older man with leadership responsibilities. Shepherds. overseers. teachers, leaders of God's people.
We can ask: are these 24 elders representing the priestly organization that was on earth. Or were the priestly organization on earth following something that was in heaven?

4. The elders sit on thrones showing they share governing powers with God. But other rulers under God, from other planets are also governing with God.


5. They wear white robes. Other heavenly beings also wear white robes. -- white linen garments.

6. They have crowns. Victory crowns. Ellen White calls them crowns of immortal glory.

All the points are not exclusive to humans, though the redeem will receive white robes, crowns and sit on thrones with Jesus, yet there is no inspired word that confirms the 24 elders are raised saints.

7. Ellen White never confirmed the idea that the 24 elders are resurrected saints.

So there's no real bases to get dogmatic about who these 24 elders are -- the point is that all heaven is interested in our salvation and in the plan of redemption, our focus and prayers are to be on Christ, and worship Him with the devotion of these heavenly beings.
.
Sometimes I think EGW never endorsed that position of 24 human priests in heaven, because it could open the door to a Catholic notion of praying to the saints asking them to intercede for us? In their role in heaven they 24 elders do seem to be in an intercessory work with their censers offering prayers of the saints. Believing they are human could led to the Catholic practices.

And this gives a explanation, although not a Adventist source it makes sense and Adventist also repeat it, of the faces of the four living creature...

"Meaning of the FOUR FACES of the FOUR living creatures

The four living creatures in Rev 4: 6, 8 are not often referred to as angels although they have characteristics of angels. They are super-beings identified with the throne of God, and once with the tree of life in Eden (3: 24). They appeared in Ezekiel's vision of the throne of God as Cherubims (Ezekiel 1:5-11, 15, 20; 10:12, 14-15). Isaiah identified them as Seraphim (Is 6: 2-3). Their roles look like guardians of the throne, and more importantly, proclaiming the holiness of God (Is 6: 3; Rev 4: 8). Of particular interest are their faces as described by Ezekiel and John (lion, ox, man, and flying eagle). What is the meaning of the faces?

First, look at the throne through the lens of Semitic socio-religious and political traditions. Contextually, the vision of these beings occurred in the heavenly sanctuary. So, we won't look any farther. An allusion is made to Moses when he was instructed to make figures of cherubims to spread their wings over the mercy seat (Ex 25: 18-22; cf. 1 Kgs 6). Not so much information is given about their appearance.


Second, the four faces are familiar among Jews. According to Number 2; 10: 11-25, the encampment of Israel were divided into FOUR divisions "under their banner (Hebrew "degel")" around the TABERNACLE.
Commentaries explain the standards or banners this way:
(The degas (Hebrew), "standard," was the large field sign that belonged to each division of three tribes, and was also the banner of the tribe at the head of that division. The oth, "ensign," was the small flag or banner that was carried at the head of each tribe and of each subdivision of a tribe. (Freeman, J. M., & Chadwick, H. J. (1998). Manners & customs of the Bible (p. 163). North Brunswick, NJ: Bridge-Logos Publishers.)

"The Hebrew term used here, oth (also meaning "sign"), likely refers to an insignia, perhaps comparable to a family crest, unique to each tribe. Since Moses characterizes each tribe in a particular fashion (Deut 33), it is likely that certain symbols were associated with each individual group." (Barry, J. D., Mangum, D., Brown, D. R., Heiser, M. S., Custis, M., Ritzema, E., ? Bomar, D. (2012, 2016). Faithlife Study Bible (Nu 2:2). Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press.)

"Standards were visible signs of a certain recognized form for directing the movements of large bodies of people. As the Israelites were commanded to encamp
'each by his own standard, with the ensign of their father's house,"
the direction has been considered as implying that they possessed three varieties:
(1) the great tribal standards, which served as rallying points for the twelve large clans of the people; (2) the standards of the subdivided portions; and,
(3) those of families or houses.?
(Jamieson, R., Fausset, A. R., & Brown, D. (1997). Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible (Vol. 1, p. 95). Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.)

The Four divisions and their totemic symbols are the following:
Judah on the East (Lion)-Isachar, Zebulon
Reuben on the South (Man)-Simeon, Gad
Ephraim on the West (Ox)-Manaseh, Benjamin
Dan on the North (Flying eagle holding a serpent)-Asher, Naphtali (Jewish tradition says the emblem of Dan was changed from a snake to a flying eagle)

The concept of the encampment of Israel around the TABERNACLE parallels the FOUR living creatures AROUND THE THRONE. We are here given the reason why the four living beings worship God and proclaim His holiness in the same manner Israel was to worship God and to be holy to Him (Lev 11: 44, 45; 19: 19: 2; 20: 26). But their significance is deeper than that. The faces of the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders are used symbolically to highlight the Judeo-Christian concept of the redeemed in the book of Revelation: the 144,000 (Jewish) and the multitude from all nations (Gentile nations). See my article ?The recipients of the book of Revelation? for further clarification.

Mathew Henry makes allusion of the encampment to the preaching of the gospel thus: "These were of use for the distinction of tribes and families, and the gathering and keeping of them together, in allusion to which the preaching of the gospel is said to lift up an ensign, to which the Gentiles shall seek, and by which they shall pitch, Isa. 11:10, 12."
(Henry, M. (1994). Matthew Henry?s commentary on the whole Bible: complete and unabridged in one volume (p. 188). Peabody: Hendrickson.)" ...

https://sparksrevelation.wordpress....four-faces-of-the-four-living-creatures/

Thank you for sharing!!! From this information I understand the 4 living creatures to represent God's people either in exodus (delivered from Egypt but not yet home) and in exile. We are in exile and exodus heading home but not home yet.

I see the tradition of just pointing to people who came to Heaven as just a "selfie" and not the message of what God is trying to tell us.

Jesus is up in heaven. God is up in heaven. We don't have them dwelling among us in the sanctuary/temple or the person of Jesus on the earth. What Revelation 4 and 5 are teaching us is that the priests have been replaced with the 24 elders. Historically, the Sanhedrin that was involved with the passion of our Lord appears to be 23 Sadducee priests plus the high priest for a total of 24 Sadducee priests. The job of the priests were to tell the truth about Jesus. However, these 24 people decided to give a false witness about who Jesus was. This is their heavenly counterparts who do indeed give the truth about Jesus and who minister from the throne in heaven to the 4 living creatures; Us, God's people in exodus on the earth.

The word "Sanhedrin" is a Greek term, scholars had wondered what the Aramaic or Hebrew word was. Archaeology discovered that it is "Elders"

Thus instead of a selfie saying "Wish you were here" postcard from heaven, John was telling us that there is a priesthood of 24 elders who quite literally brings communication from heaven to the four living creatures. This is the living word of God. The testimony of the 12 tribes and the testimony of the 12 apostles. The true priesthood, the true Sanhedrin, brining the truth about Jesus and informing God's people for what we need for specific times in history, the idea of present truth and from where we will learn present truth.

I realize you were quoting from a website. But I tend to lean in the direction, that they have more a symbolic meaning.

This last Sabbath, a speaker grew quite eloquent about these 24 elders being resurrected humans serving as priests in heaven.

My problem is that I have read a few samples of Alice Bailey's ( a new age priestess) predictions (which she supposedly received from a master) She talks about preparing the world for the coming "masters".
These masters are supposedly people who lived many ages ago, and are now spirit beings coming to improve the world and led humans into a more elevated state of humanity.

So why are we interpreting the bible to say there are "elders" (ancient departed saints, similar to what these masters claim to be) in heaven, whose duty is to explain things to people?
Or what about the "bowls of incense" with the "prayers of saints", that these elders have?. If they are perceived to be departed saints could this be a way to convince people to pray to these elder/saints in heaven to petition Jesus to rule in our favor??

I don't know -- but I just got a very strange feeling that this nice sounding interpretation of the 24 elders was a wedge into Adventism to prepare them to receive the spiritualistic manifestations of the last days.

Remember, even though that interpretation was around during the SDA pioneer days, Ellen White never once endorsed their interpretation. Indeed -- in at least two places she substituted the word "angel" in the place of the world "elder" when referring to Rev. 7:13.

It certainly was more than symbolically for the Jews, as they saw the literal part of it and it showed how the true tabernacle of God in heaven and place of the Judgement process given in the example of the day of Atonement would be. I think as we begin to understand the meaning of the Heavenly Tabernacle and why a copy for Moses to follow was shown to him, it becomes more real to us. I always wondered why I heard this from so many Adventist and only now am I beginning to grasp a true understanding of it and what the various parts meant, and Satan likes to bring up substitutes (as he reads whats in Gods Word too) to divert us from the truth so I wouldnt put too much worry about the new age predictions.

Here is more that I came across...

"The earthly sanctuary symbolized God?s presence in a covenantal relationship with Israel, His chosen people (cf. Exod. 15:17, 25:8). Through the sanctuary, Israel would commune, worship, and interact with God. As with the tabernacle in the wilderness, Solomon?s temple became the locus of God?s Shekinah glory and the center of Israel?s worship; all the furniture and details of the tabernacle in the Holy and Most Holy places were transferred to the temple.

God?s presence demanded obedience from His people, beginning with their leader, be it Moses, Aaron, David, or Solomon. God?s dwelling in the earthly sanctuary by extension meant that He chose to dwell with His people, and this dwelling expected that His people, beginning with the king as their representative, would follow God?s law (1 Kings 6:12, 13). In fact, as long as the temple stood, the prayers of His people in or toward the temple were heard and answered by God from His heavenly abode (1 Kings 8:30, 39, 43, 49; 2 Chron. 6:21, 30, 33, 39; Ps. 102:19). God?s omnipresence demonstrates His ability to examine everything (cf. Prov. 15:3; Job 34:21; Jer. 16:17). While God is said to fill both heaven and earth, He is usually portrayed as looking from heaven (cf. 2 Chron. 16:9; Ps .34:15). God?s concretization of His presence was through His glory while filling the temple (cf., Lev. 9:6, 23; Exod. 40:34; 1 Kings 8:11; 2 Chron. 5:14; Ezek. 43:2). Therefore, His real dwelling would remain in heaven, whereas the earthly sanctuary was a representation and an assurance of God?s presence among His people (1 Kings 9:3)....

"As with Moses, David received every detail of Jerusalem?s temple through God?s inspiration. God explicitly directed Moses that he should build the sanctuary ?according to the pattern? that was given to him ?on the mountain? (Exod. 25:40; 26:30; 31:18).4 Moses? heavenly vision and later David?s special inspired directives stand in parallel to underscore the fact that the sanctuary in the wilderness and the temple in Jerusalem were both directed by God?s disclosure of the sanctuary and the temple plans. When the chronicler states that ?David gave his son Solomon the plans for the vestibule, its houses, its treasuries, its upper chambers, its inner chambers, and the place of the mercy seat,? the chronicler makes sure that Solomon knows the source of all these plans. He says, ?And the plans for all that he had by the Spirit? (1 Chron. 28:11, 12). This undoubtedly refers to God as the source of understanding and direction that David had for the construction plans of the temple. Ellen White says it well: ?David gave Solomon minute directions for building the temple, with patterns of every part, and of all its instruments of service, as had been revealed to him by divine inspiration.?5

In 1 Chronicles 28:19, David says that the ?Lord made me understand in writing, by His hand upon me, all the works of these plans.? Thus, David acquired a capacity for a deep intuitive understanding of the plan for the temple. In addition, the Yhwh ?lay, ?Yahweh upon me? (v. 19) refers to a direct and divine activity through God?s Spirit (cf. Isa. 61:1; Ezek. 3:14; 2 Sam. 23:1, 2).6 This is a characteristic mode of expression for a prophet entering into a state of prophetic vision (cf. 2 Kings 3:15; Ezek. 1:3; 3:14, 22; 8:1; Isa. 61:1). Hence David, like Moses, received the instructions and insights for building the sanctuary through divine intervention.7

The Old Testament certainly shows that the sanctuary in the wilderness was patterned according to a heavenly model. Moses was not the originator of the tabernacle in the desert; rather, he built the sanctuary according to the pattern and the purpose of God (cf. Exod. 25:8; Lev. 20:3; Ps. 78:69). While it is true that David?s plan for the temple was not identical to the sanctuary in the wilderness in terms of size and materials, still both developed from a single sacred prototype concept of compartments?the Holy and the most Holy. God?s involvement in both, perhaps, presupposes a temple of heavenly origin, at least from human perspectives."... https://www.ministrymagazine.org/archive/2016/08/The-Heavenly-Sanctuary

Yes, the earthly sanctuary was patterned after the heavenly and helps us understand the heavenly and the awesome work Christ is doing in the heavenly.
It's by studying the earthly sanctuary that brings meaning to what the New Testament reveals.

There is obviously a heavenly sanctuary from which God deals with sin, not just in saving us, but in demonstrating to the whole universe the awful problem of sin, and His absolute justice, love and righteousness, of being able to destroy sin and redeem sinners.

However, the earthly is NOT the heavenly. The earthly things are definitely symbolic of things in heaven. The earthly could never do the REAL ridding of sin from the people, or from the universe. The earthly was rather limited, and could only offer a promissory note that the REAL would come, and by offering a lamb, they were putting their trust that the INFINITE LAMB OF GOD would come and bring redemption.

This thread is "Who are the 24 elders"?
And the above, though informative, interesting and important information, especially pertaining to the Sabbath School lessons this week studying the judgment in heaven. Yet it does not really address the question of the thread.

In the book of Hebrews we realize the priesthood in the earthly sanctuary ALL represent CHRIST.
Christ alone is our high priest.
We don't pray to any saints or petition any resurrected (or earthly) humans for salvation, or to put in a good word for us in the heavenly courts.
It is Christ by which we MUST be saved.

Revelation 4 and 5 does not focus on 24 priests, it focuses on all the beings of heaven bowing, worshipping and praising Christ, the Lamb of God, who was slain and has redeemed "US" that is all who are reading the message in faith that they will be in heaven!

On earth there were many priests. Why? Again due to earthly limitations.
Because those priests were mortal humans who couldn't do all the work. They tired and needed a break. They died, and new ones would take their place.


Hebrews 5:1 For every high priest taken from among men was ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins:
10:4 But it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

7:21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:)
7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
7:23 And they were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
7:24 But this High Priest, because he continues ever, has an unchangeable priesthood.
7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever lives to make intercession for them.


So who are the 24 elders?
We really are not told by any inspired writer.

How is it that we have so many warnings that satan will impersonate important people, people who were influential in the past but have died and demons will personate them to deceive thousands. Yet we teach that the ancient holy men are acting as priest in heaven right now?
So what would should we do if an impressive being showed up and said, "I'm Ezra the earthly priest back in Nehemiah's day, now I'm one of the 24 elders in God's throne room and have come to guide you in these last troublous times, just as I guided the returned exiles back then"?

But in order for the Jews and us, for that matter, to understand, it had to have a copy here on earth. Thus upon seeing the true one in heaven whether in vision or at the end, we would know what we were looking at, so having 24 elders here, made for recognition of those 24 elders in heaven, whether actual humans or not. But having 24 elders with no connection to earth or from some distant part of the universe makes no sense, only if they were from earth, real humans that had gone through the trials and tribulations of man, would it become clear in showing it in prophecy.

Yep. She calls them strong angels. Men, even resurrected ones, are not angels.
I maintain that they are representatives from unfallen worlds that Adam would have been a member of, had he not sinned.
Love what you wrote about departed saints-- very good point.

Is this the SOP you are referring to....
"The Scriptures declare that upon one occasion, when the angels of God came to present themselves before the Lord, Satan came also among them (Job 1:6), not to bow before the Eternal King, but to further his own malicious designs against the righteous. With the same object he is in attendance when men assemble for the worship of God. Though hidden from sight, he is working with all diligence to control the minds of the worshipers. Like a skillful general he lays his plans beforehand. As he sees the messenger of God searching the Scriptures, he takes note of the subject to be presented to the people. Then he employs all his cunning and shrewdness so to control circumstances that the message may not reach those whom he is deceiving on that very point. The one who most needs the warning will be urged into some business transaction which requires his presence, or will by some other means be prevented from hearing the words that might prove to him a savor of life unto life."... The Great Controversy (GC 518.3)

Then there us Pastor Stephen Bhor's series on the 24 elders, where he concludes that they are the representative of the unfallen world.

Specifically, he also quotes Ellen White's account in the Desire of Ages:

"There is the throne, and around it the rainbow of promise. There are cherubim and seraphim. The commanders of the angel hosts, the sons of God, the representatives of the unfallen worlds, are assembled. The heavenly council before which Lucifer had accused God and His Son, the representatives of those sinless realms over which Satan had thought to establish his dominion,?all are there to welcome the Redeemer. They are eager to celebrate His triumph and to glorify their King." DA 834.1

This is from the manuscripts...
"This roll was written within and without. John says: 'I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon' [verse 4]. The vision as presented to John made its impression upon his mind. The destiny of every nation was contained in that book. John was distressed at the utter inability of any human being or angelic intelligence to read the words, or even to look thereon. His soul was wrought up to such a point of agony and suspense that one of the strong angels had compassion on him, and laying his hand on him assuringly, said, 'Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof' (12MR 296.1).

But then you have Christs words...
"Matthew 22:28-30
King James Version
28 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

Mark 12:23-25
King James Version
23 In the resurrection therefore, when they shall rise, whose wife shall she be of them? for the seven had her to wife.
24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?
25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

We may have to wait till we get there to see...

The word "angel" means messenger. What stronger messenger is there than the testimony of the 12 tribes and the testimony of the 12 apostles, i..e. the Holy Bible that brings present truth from God's throne in heaven to His church on earth?

The things in heaven were already there when it was described to Moses.
The things on earth are patterned after things in heaven.

Thus -- the twenty four elders would have been in heaven from the beginning.

Then why did the earthly sanctuaries have the Levites, including the priests where Revelation 4 and 5 has the 24 Elders?

Did the heavenly only have 24 elders????
Rev. 5:11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;