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Re: Does a 'Thought for Thought' translation or 'Dynamic Equivalence' make a difference? [Re: Rick H] #194705
03/23/22 11:45 AM
03/23/22 11:45 AM
Daryl  Offline

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Nova Scotia, Canada
It even reads the same way in the KJV that is supposed to be the most reliable English translation of them all according to many people.

Perhaps they didn't use capitals for the word "sabbath" back then in the old English language?


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: Does a 'Thought for Thought' translation or 'Dynamic Equivalence' make a difference? [Re: Rick H] #194713
03/31/22 10:06 AM
03/31/22 10:06 AM
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kland  Offline
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Yes, you're right. The word "sabbath" is lowercase in KJV for some reason.

But in searching, look what I found for "a sabbath":

Ex 16:25 And Moses said, Eat that to day; for to day is a sabbath unto the LORD: to day ye shall not find it in the field.
Ex 35:2 Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.

Am I not correct that this is referring to the 7th day Sabbath? It is the KJV.
So while Dedication may have a point, it would be interesting for her to analyze the above verses in the same manner.

However, me thinks there is too much ado regarding articles and whatnot versus the meaning of the passage. Have you ever, when someone is asking to do something on a certain date, you look at the calendar and say, no, that is, or falls on, a Sabbath?

Seems to me that a well rounded reading from many versions, and verses, asking the Holy Spirit to guide in the meaning of what you are reading, "to study the Scriptures as in line upon line and precept upon precept, here a little, there a little" is a more reasonable path to follow than those attempting to find some error with the Holy Scriptures and casting doubt upon them to others.

Re: Does a 'Thought for Thought' translation or 'Dynamic Equivalence' make a difference? [Re: Rick H] #194716
04/02/22 08:05 AM
04/02/22 08:05 AM
Daryl  Offline

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I agree with the studying of the Scriptures, line upon line and precept upon precept.

God's Word remains God's Word despite what the devil through man has done to the various versions and translations.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: Does a 'Thought for Thought' translation or 'Dynamic Equivalence' make a difference? [Re: kland] #195287
12/29/22 01:26 AM
12/29/22 01:26 AM
dedication  Offline
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Originally Posted by kland
Why did the translators put lower case on "sabbath"?



The original didn't have lower or upper case distinction. Thus translations add or leave it off according to their understanding.

What is the difference between thought and word translations and using Equivalence words to try and get the meaning across. (words or phrases that basically mean the same thing but sound clearer)

Word translations try to translate the verse word for word which may sound pretty awkward.

Equivalence translation tries to translate the meaning the words convey, by finding Equivalent words or phrases to try and get the meaning across. (words or phrases that basically mean the same thing but sound clearer) which sometimes takes on the meaning the translators see in the verse which may be different from what the author actually meant.

But translating isn't easy.

For example,

Matt. 8:29 And, behold, they (evil spirits) cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time? KJV

The phrase translated as "What have we to do with thee? KJV

Translators struggle to translate that phrase, do they translate word for word? Or use a more natural phrasing?

Literally plugging in an English word for a Greek word, in that phrase would read:

"What to me and to you"

Other translations seek to convey the question with more equivalent expressions attempting to bring out the meaning more cleanly
like:
"What to us and to Thee, Jesus (Wycliff Bible)
?What do we have in common??
?What business do we have with each other??? NAS

Some wander a bit further from word for word.

"?What hast Thou to do with us, Thou Son of God? WNT
"What do we have to do with you, Jesus, WEB
?What do you want with us, Son of God? NIV
?Why are you interfering with us, Son of God? NLT?

Probably no major problems in these difference in this verse for the average readers.
But yet there is also an adding onto the sentence of things not in the original text.



Re: Does a 'Thought for Thought' translation or 'Dynamic Equivalence' make a difference? [Re: dedication] #195674
04/15/23 09:03 AM
04/15/23 09:03 AM
Rick H  Offline
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Originally Posted by dedication
Originally Posted by kland
Why did the translators put lower case on "sabbath"?



The original didn't have lower or upper case distinction. Thus translations add or leave it off according to their understanding.

What is the difference between thought and word translations and using Equivalence words to try and get the meaning across. (words or phrases that basically mean the same thing but sound clearer)

Word translations try to translate the verse word for word which may sound pretty awkward.

Equivalence translation tries to translate the meaning the words convey, by finding Equivalent words or phrases to try and get the meaning across. (words or phrases that basically mean the same thing but sound clearer) which sometimes takes on the meaning the translators see in the verse which may be different from what the author actually meant.

But translating isn't easy.

For example,

Matt. 8:29 And, behold, they (evil spirits) cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time? KJV

The phrase translated as "What have we to do with thee? KJV

Translators struggle to translate that phrase, do they translate word for word? Or use a more natural phrasing?

Literally plugging in an English word for a Greek word, in that phrase would read:

"What to me and to you"

Other translations seek to convey the question with more equivalent expressions attempting to bring out the meaning more cleanly
like:
"What to us and to Thee, Jesus (Wycliff Bible)
?What do we have in common??
?What business do we have with each other??? NAS

Some wander a bit further from word for word.

"?What hast Thou to do with us, Thou Son of God? WNT
"What do we have to do with you, Jesus, WEB
?What do you want with us, Son of God? NIV
?Why are you interfering with us, Son of God? NLT?

Probably no major problems in these difference in this verse for the average readers.
But yet there is also an adding onto the sentence of things not in the original text.



Its when they add a sentence or delete one that it starts to get tricky, as they can distort the passage and meaning or change it to a current way of thinking, much as they did inserting " Easter" for "Passover".

Last edited by Rick H; 04/15/23 09:07 AM.
Re: Does a 'Thought for Thought' translation or 'Dynamic Equivalence' make a difference? [Re: kland] #196035
07/19/23 01:04 PM
07/19/23 01:04 PM
G
Garywk  Offline
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Posts: 982
Colville, Wa
Originally Posted by kland
Originally Posted by Rick H
Here is one that definitely makes a difference and its done in Gods Ten Commandments:

But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates.

Do you see what they did. Its very subtle, but if you look "the Sabbath" is changed to "a Sabbath". This would broaden the scope of the command to cover ALL sabbaths including 'ceremonial' ones and not just the one made for man on the seventh day, and effectively create confusion within the Bible itself, for God did not create the world in seven days prior to each of the ceremonial sabbaths.

I understand what you are saying is a difference between "a Sabbath" and "the sabbath". One is capitalized, one is not, one refers to "a", the other refers to "the". "A" seventh day Sabbath vs. "the" ceremonial sabbath. Seems a little contradictory opposed and conflicting opposites. But what is the correct rendering? Other than an opinion of what it should be, can you show which is the correct English article to be used?

I believe accurate translation is more important than one supporting an opinion of what is proper. Can you show what is accurate?


I don't believe that your interpretation of what Rick H said is accurate. He didn't say "the ceremonial Sabbath" therefore your entire premise for questioning his point of view is faulty

Re: Does a 'Thought for Thought' translation or 'Dynamic Equivalence' make a difference? [Re: Garywk] #196038
07/19/23 01:47 PM
07/19/23 01:47 PM
dedication  Offline
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5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,411
Canada
The question is not whether or not the fourth commandment is a ceremonial sabbath or not. All the contributors believe the fourth commandment is speaking about the 7th day Sabbath? a specific day not just any day in seven. The discussion is about bible translations that appear to make that distinction more fuzzy. How exactly did the original word it?

For me there?s enough evidence in the fourth commandment to understand it is referring to the definite 7th day Sabbath not just to any 7th day. Most scholars agree. So even if we read the 7th day is ?a? Sabbath or ?the? Sabbath still points to the day we call Saturday.

The sad thing is that many Christians read it as simply any day (Sunday being their choice) so that?s why the concern when ?a? is written instead of ? the? sabbath

Re: Does a 'Thought for Thought' translation or 'Dynamic Equivalence' make a difference? [Re: dedication] #196048
07/19/23 06:34 PM
07/19/23 06:34 PM
G
Garywk  Offline
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Veteran Member
Joined: Jul 2023
Posts: 982
Colville, Wa
Originally Posted by dedication
The question is not whether or not the fourth commandment is a ceremonial sabbath or not. All the contributors believe the fourth commandment is speaking about the 7th day Sabbath? a specific day not just any day in seven. The discussion is about bible translations that appear to make that distinction more fuzzy. How exactly did the original word it?

For me there?s enough evidence in the fourth commandment to understand it is referring to the definite 7th day Sabbath not just to any 7th day. Most scholars agree. So even if we read the 7th day is ?a? Sabbath or ?the? Sabbath still points to the day we call Saturday.

The sad thing is that many Christians read it as simply any day (Sunday being their choice) so that?s why the concern when ?a? is written instead of ? the? sabbath


I don't disagree with you, but not all feasts happened on the Sabbath. When the Sabbath and a feast day coincided it was called a high Sabbath.

Re: Does a 'Thought for Thought' translation or 'Dynamic Equivalence' make a difference? [Re: Rick H] #196081
07/21/23 08:23 PM
07/21/23 08:23 PM
dedication  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,411
Canada
Agree the seventh day sabbath is not a ceremonial sabbath. It is the seventh day blessed and sanctified at creation Geneses 2.2-3 Ceremonial sabbaths were annual sabbaths determined by the new moon which could fall on any day of the week. There are people who try to place the creation sabbath with those sabbaths for one of two reasons.
1, To elevate ceremonial sabbaths to the same obligatory level as the creation sabbath or
2. To remove the seventh day sabbath as being just a shadow and having no more binding claims in the gospel dispensation

Both reasons to lump the creation Sabbath with the ceremonial sabbaths are not correct. The seventh day sabbath is unique, inscribed on the first tablet of Gods law. ( love the lord your God with all you heart)

Re: Does a 'Thought for Thought' translation or 'Dynamic Equivalence' make a difference? [Re: Rick H] #196098
07/26/23 05:46 PM
07/26/23 05:46 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,416
Midland
Yes, what Dedication said. We were talking about versions. And whether it's capitalization or articles preceding a word, does not validate a translation as the only one. See if I'm not correct, that Rick's measuring rod to determine whether a version is "valid" or not is whether it is the KJV.

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