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Re: What are the seven kings of Rev. 17:10? [Re: Rick H] #195684
04/16/23 03:38 PM
04/16/23 03:38 PM
dedication  Online Content
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So it's not confusing at all to see these heads as the dominant state power oppressing the true believers in God.

Five fallen by 1798
1. Babylon
2. Persia
3. Greece
4 Imperial Rome
5. Papal Rome

6. The sixth head is in control while the Papal beast "is not", the fifth head having been stripped of it's political power and its ability to use force over nations is now out of commission.
This sixth head is the one that removed the crowns from the horns, and took away the state power from the papacy to rule over religion.
It is depicted in Rev. 11:7 as the beast coming out of the bottomless pit, that fueled the French Revolution (and other revolutions) based on liberty, equality, fraternity etc. movement in its various forms. Government power in many countries was greatly changed.
The beast has just laid down its arms and shifted his method of attack from a more head on attack, to a scientific, philosophical attack on God's truths.

7. The beast regains power and once again takes up arms in a new world order, with the papacy leading the coalition -- papacy regains political power to enforce it's mandates, horns receive crowns for a short time and give their support to the beast, Protestantism gives their support to papal mandates, Babylonian religion is imposed upon the world. We've come full cycle from Babylon to Babylon.

8 The eighth is the power behind this whole system, that fully manifests itself in the end -- the power from beneath, the dragon himself -- the whole system was orchestrated by the dragon to bring worship to himself (Rev. 13:4) And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast..." whose aim from the beginning was to (Isaiah 14:13) "exalt my throne above the stars of God, I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation in the sides of the north." He will appear pretending to be Christ.

All unite in one massive coalition, to war against Christ,(true Christianity) but the Lamb will win! (Rev. 17:14) The Lamb shall overcome them for He is King of kings and Lord of lords.
And the ten horns find their new crowns are a deception, and they attack the whole Babylonian counterfeit religious system that has deceived them, they attack the harlot woman with a viciousness of agony. (Rev. 17:18) (See Great Controversy page 655)

Re: What are the seven kings of Rev. 17:10? [Re: Rick H] #195688
04/17/23 12:55 PM
04/17/23 12:55 PM
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I think this last was in agreement with what Kevin said, right?

Re: What are the seven kings of Rev. 17:10? [Re: Rick H] #195689
04/18/23 05:43 AM
04/18/23 05:43 AM
dedication  Online Content
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The same general idea, Yes.

Re: What are the seven kings of Rev. 17:10? [Re: Rick H] #195695
04/19/23 12:26 PM
04/19/23 12:26 PM
kland  Offline
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However, I don't see atheism as coming out of the bottomless pit. Though definitely a power controlled by satan.

Originally Posted by dedication

According the Great Controversy 269
?When they shall have finished [are finishing] their testimony.? The period when the two witnesses were to prophesy clothed in sackcloth ended in 1798. As they were approaching the termination of their work in obscurity, war was to be made upon them by the power represented as ?the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit.? In many of the nations of Europe the powers that ruled in Church and State had for centuries been controlled by Satan, through the medium of the papacy. But here is brought to view a new manifestation of Satanic power.

Notice, "through the medium of the papacy". Meaning, the papacy is not the beast from the bottomless pit. Neither is the new "manifestation".

Re: What are the seven kings of Rev. 17:10? [Re: Rick H] #195705
04/20/23 04:52 PM
04/20/23 04:52 PM
dedication  Online Content
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The beasts themself are earthly powers. The dragon is that old serpent the devil. Rev.12:9,
When the the beasts (earthly powers) give themselves over to the dragon to do his bidding they are working out the agenda of the dragon.

Revelation 12 tells us this whole war is being orchestrated by the DRAGON
But through Jesus salvation is brought to the world.

Revelation 12:4, 7-10 The dragon himself, is the one who started the war against Jesus before creation, taking a third of the angels to side with him, and it is the dragon himself with his angels, that was defeated by Christ at the cross. His defeat by Christ brings salvation for all who believe in Christ.

The dragon works through each of the heads to destroy Christ's plan of salvation and rob Christ of the ones He came to save --
Revelation 12:4 the dragon seeking to devour the child (Jesus) as soon as He is born -- he works through the power of imperial Rome in his attempts to kill Jesus at birth, and later crucify Him.

Revelation 12:6,13,14 Dragon, through papal Rome persecutes the "woman" 1260 years.

Revelation 12:16 The Dragon sends out floods of armies (crusades, etc) using the papal powers, against the woman,
but the earth beast helps the woman. Beasts can be good, because the beast of the earth swallows the flood and gives the woman a land where the flood of persecution doesn't reach her.

Now the dragon is loosing ground and comes up with new plans.

God is also very much at work to break the power through which the dragon is keeping the population in the dark. With the rise of Protestantism, the invention of the printing press, the renaissance, people weren't bowing to his fifth papal "head" as readily, people were reading God's Word and finding the equality and liberty God offers through belief in Jesus Christ. Resistance to the tyranny of papal and kingly powers is rising. The fifth head is loosing control, and a new land is sheltering people who seek to serve God.

So the dragon develops another beast (a European power) It believes in freedom, equality and fraternity but the dragon leads them to believe all the religious wars, all that blood shed and oppression in the years passed was due to the BIBLE and the God that inspired Bible. The Bible was proclaimed as evil and God was despised or declared non-existent. This beast was/is a human power but it's war on the Bible and God, was fueled by the dragon. It was largely implement by Jesuit influence, who had just been banned by the pope who was under pressure from kings to ban them. This beast of Rev. 11:7 is his sixth head.

In America the land beast was born with the same liberty/equality/fraternity concepts. But in America it was built on Protestant principles. America was raised by God to bring religious freedom to the world, so truth could spread to the world.
Yet as John Adams stated that: ?Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.?

This beast with lamb like horns was a thorn in the dragon's program. So Satan developed the counterfeit liberty/equality/fraternity beast, taking God and the Bible out, and the nation that took the bait hook line and sinker was France. Take God and the Bible out of that government style and it will utterly fail.

In America, with which upheld Protestant freedom and moral standards, the "freedom, equality, fraternity style was a success. (Not perfect by any means, but still great and blessed) Religious freedom and the ability for individuals to pursue their goals, flourished. The dragon has been working for a good 200 years to take down America and get it under the control of his papal beast. He couldn't stop the spread of the Bible, the Bibles were multiplying everywhere.
Originally Posted by GC586
Now that Satan can no longer keep the world under his control by withholding the Scriptures, he resorts to other means to accomplish the same object. To destroy faith in the Bible serves his purpose as well as to destroy the Bible itself.

So the sixth head as the dragon's alley is this European beast from Rev. 11:7.
America is infiltrated hugely both by the papal beast working to regain it's influence and the athiest beast, working to destroy it's government, and America is about to fully repudiate it's constitution and give its power to the papacy. When they merge we will find ourselves under the seventh head -- the papal led coalition.

Then the dragon's full fledged war (Rev. 12:17) using the earthly papal led powers merged in the seventh head, will rage against those who have the testimony of Jesus and keep His commandment!

The eighth is the dragon (the power behind the whole thing) who appears pretending to be the long expected Messiah.

Re: What are the seven kings of Rev. 17:10? [Re: dedication] #195776
05/06/23 01:46 AM
05/06/23 01:46 AM
Rick H  Offline
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Originally Posted by dedication
Oh no, Revelation 17 is NOT useless prophecy. No, it is one of the most revealing prophecies on end time events, depicting the coalition of powers.

The identity of the seven kings that are past, is not the core of the message,
Though I do see a problem when we want to label all the kings as past identities that have already come and gone so far back it places the prophecy in the dusty hills of antiquity. Both the "Egypt" start point, and the ancient Roman government interpretations, really don't leave much of ANYTHING for us in the present time.
That explanation Rick gave ended in 1798 when the last, seventh "king" received it's fatal wound.
That, my friend is what I see as an interpretation creating a dead end prophecy.

If we use the empires that both Daniel and Revelation talk about -- then Kevin's take on it makes far more sense than bringing in other empires from antiquity and having them all end in 1798.
Revelation is far more concerned with the two beasts in chapter 13, and another one in Rev. 11, not with ancient Egypt and Assyria.

Again let's look closer at the passage itself to find the clues

How do we interpret these verses
17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, which had seven heads and ten horns
17:8 The beast that you saw was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Let's put ALL the information into the time frame when John sees this vision.

1. An angel with the seven last plagues asks John to "come" (end time clue)
2. John is taken into the wilderness. That's where the pure woman was last seen (Rev.12) but he doesn't see a pure woman there, she is somewhere else. (John sees a time that is after 1798)
3. He sees her on many waters merged with the mother of harlots, with Babylon.
Since this message follows the warning of the judgment, it must be given in the last days; therefore it cannot refer to the Roman Church alone, for that church has been in a fallen condition for many centuries. Furthermore, in the eighteenth chapter of the Revelation the people of God are called upon to come out of Babylon. According to this scripture, many of God's people must still be in Babylon. And in what religious bodies are the greater part of the followers of Christ now to be found? Without doubt, in the various churches professing the Protestant faith.
(This is hinting that John sees the vision portraying time after 1844)
4.. He sees a woman sitting on the beast. Note-- the beast at this point "is not" . He was, but "is not" (again the clue points to time after 1798)
5. The beast is re-emerging from the abyss (grave) The wound showing signs of healing
6. The sixth head of the beast is. The previous five have fallen. What was coming up in Europe around 1798?
7. The ten European horns don't have crowns yet, (their crowns were removed around 1798) they will receive crowns for a short time.

The time is being identified, and it's not John's time!
It is depicting a time when it se the beast is not. ( it was, it is not, but is coming alive again}
The deceptive part -- the Papal power does not look like a threat at this point
The 10 horns don't have crowns

John sees the "setting" of this vision sometime between 1844 and the end.
Thus the 6th "King that is" and the "beast is not" phase, crownless horns are during this time.

But if nothing can be understood with everyone all over the place, then its not much use to give to the world, its a confusion of nothing, a dead end for any understanding of prophecy. I dont think God would send us into a boxed canyon with no purpose or way to proceed in the timeline..

Last edited by Rick H; 05/06/23 09:29 AM.
Re: What are the seven kings of Rev. 17:10? [Re: Rick H] #195785
05/07/23 03:09 AM
05/07/23 03:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Rick H
But if nothing can be understood with everyone all over the place, then its not much use to give to the world, its a confusion of nothing, a dead end for any understanding of prophecy. I dont think God would send us into a boxed canyon with no purpose or way to proceed in the timeline.

I agree, unity of understanding of prophecy is ideal. But we must agree on truth, not just because a professor at Andrews University writes an article in the Ministry Magazine.

Is Ranko Stefanovic (the author of the article Rick posted) the final word? Is his view here giveing the understanding of the majority of Adventists on this particular subject? Yes, there are some who do promote it. But there are some pretty big hurtles to accept the position Stefanovic gives, Not to denigrate Ranko, he has some good ideas and studies, but on this point I think he steps out of the correct lines of prophecy.

Nor do I understand why you think following the prophetic outlines as given in Daniel and Revelation (two books that compliment each other) would be seen as leading into a "boxed canyon with no purpose or way to proceed in the timeline??????? It is when we go outside the prophetic outlines in Daniel and Revelation that I find we end up in a "boxed canyon with no way to proceed". It runs out of heads by 1798.

The 1Egypt, 2Assyria,3 Babylon, 4Media/Persia, 5Greece, 6Imperial Rome, 7Papal Rome, interpretation not only puts all the heads in the past before we even enter the time of the end. It adds nations that Dan&Rev don't talk about?

So does John also see the woman riding the beast before 1798, as the scene opens with him seeing the woman on the beast.

But for now let's just see if the interpretation of the seven heads being powers starting with Babylon is accepted by many Adventists?

George McCready Price (1870-1963) devoted most of his work to a defense of creation and a worldwide Flood, yet he also wrote two well respected books on the prophecies of Daniel (The Greatest of the Prophets 1955) and Revelation (The Time of the End 1967) Chapter 3 is where he talks about the seven heads.
Originally Posted by George McCready Price
No correct understand of this chapter (Rev.17) was possible as long as the many explanations were understood as having been given by the angel from the standpoint of the Roman Empire, instead of having been viewed by John and explained by the angel in terms of the last days, the time of the end. Was it not one of the angels with the seven last plagues who showed this vision to John? Was not John picked up and carried "away in the spirit" from his own place and time, to see conditions as they would be down at the very close of earth's history? (p.100)

For many centuries the Catholic Church...thought they had to bring in Egypt and Assyria...before the paradoxical language of this chapter was well understood, even some Adventist writers were deceived by this part of the wine of Babylon. They adopted this Catholic interpretation.....They overlooked the fact that Egypt and Assyria are never once referred to in any of the serial prophecies of Daniel and Revelation....They also forgot the well known historical fact that the Babylon of Nebuchadnezzar and Daniel is often called the Neo-Babylonian empire, or the second Babylonian empire, because the first career of Babylon antedated both Egypt and Assyria going back to the time of Nimrod...(39)
The religious factor is vastly more important to the conflict of the ages than is the political......

Read his book TIME OF THE END

Unfolding the Revelation.
Originally Posted by Roy Allen Anderson
John was brought forward in vision and was witnessing the events of the great judgment. At the time that great scene opened in heaven (1844) the papacy was at a low ebb. Only a few years earlier she had received her deadly wound, At the time this prophecy of Revelation 17 has its special application, five of these great powers were fallen. These were Babylon, Persia, Greece, pagan Rome and papal Rome-- the deadly wound having been in inflicted upon the papacy in 1798....."one is" that is, it was existent after 1798. The Revolutionary War...Democracy....Yet, startling as it may seem, this prophecy reveals that these great principles of liberty will ultimately be abandoned and America will actually become an alley of Rome
p. 176-177

Henry Feyerabend (1931-2006)
Revelation Verse By Verse
Originally Posted by Henry Feyerabend
Five are fallen: At the time this prophecy was referring to, five of the seven heads of the beast were fallen. There are seven different and distinct powers introduced here by prophetic symbols. They are: Babylon, Persia, Greece, Pagan Rome, Papal or ecclesiastical Rome, Republicanism/Democracy, and the last great confederacy of evil.
Babylon, Persia, Greece, and pagan Rome had already fallen. In 1798 ecclesiastical Rome received a fatal wound.
One is: Democracy arose in America at the very time the papacy went down.
The other is not yet come: Kings lose their crowns....
The eighth revived power of the papacy...for a brief time,the beast and the false prophet unite their powers, ...the eighth which is one of the seven. page 162-163

Mervyn Maxwell (1925-1999) in his book: "God Cares" comments there are several interpretations out there. He, however favors the, Babylon, Media Persia, Greece, Roman Empire, Christian Rome, as the five fallen. Christian Rome Wounded as the "one is" and Christian Rome Revived as "the one is coming" and gives many reasons why he belives this to be the best interpretation. p. 473-476

Re: What are the seven kings of Rev. 17:10? [Re: Rick H] #195817
05/11/23 07:25 PM
05/11/23 07:25 PM
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Having read George Price's comment
For many centuries the Catholic Church has had her own interpretation of this chapter....Her theologians, followed closely by the Modernistic critics, have always assumed that the time viewpoint from which the angel's explanation was given to John was the time of the Roman emperors. Accordingly they thought they had to bring in Egypt and Assyria...before the paradoxical language of this chapter was well understood, even some Adventist writers were deceived by this part of the wine of Babylon. They adopted this Catholic interpretation....p.39, Time of the End, George McCready Price

I was curious as to why he thought this "Catholic interpretation" was dangerous?
There doesn't seem to be any clear definite interpretation in their writings.
The one thing they emphasize is that the Papal church is not part of the prophecy. Definitely not one of the heads, etc.

But what I found:
Some of their scholars believe the text
17:11 The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

means, yes, the seven heads are seven mountains (kingdoms)
"and" there are seven kings"
The prophecy is enlarged to say there are seven mountains AND seven kings.
According to some the seven kings are an added feature, not another symbol for heads.
So even though the seven heads are seven empires
there are also seven kings.

So according to that interpretation, then, the seven heads are kingdoms supposedly Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, thus the prophecy's sixth head and "NOW" is Rome
When the Barbarians sweep down then Rome is "NOT"
The seven kings, some Catholic writers said, were seven emperors of Rome. Different ones named including Nero, Vespasian, Titus, Domitian. Often ending with Hadrian who gave Israel a real death blow.

Who do they say the woman represents?
Quote: The woman is not Rome, what city does she represent? The answer, I would suggest, lies in the fact that Jesus was killed in her. That can only refer to one place, Jerusalem, and the rest of the book confirms this for us. For example, if we turn back to the passage that mentions the seven hills, we find that it perfectly fits Jerusalem?s political situation before the city was destroyed by Rome in 70 AD. Just as the woman in that passage is propped up by the beast, so too were the rulers of Jerusalem supported by the Roman authorities. They ruled by Rome?s permission and with their backing. Their city was destroyed by Rome. End quote.

Well, though the above is a confusing bits and pieces of what I gleaned from their writings, and by far not the only ideas they express, the one thing that is obvious, their views are part of the counter Reformation. No way must any of this point at the Papal church, any alternative interpretation is better

So why was George Price warning against that method of identifying the seven heads?
Seems it was the putting of it all back into John's day, and thus inadvertently supporting the preterist interpretation. Only the seventh head was not named and it could easily be pulled into the preterist interpretation.

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