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Re: Are All Born Saved and All Choose to be Lost? [Re: Mountain Man] #155380
08/24/13 02:43 AM
08/24/13 02:43 AM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,607
California, USA
Not just DNA but our sinful spiritual nature as well.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Are All Born Saved and All Choose to be Lost? [Re: Mountain Man] #155384
08/24/13 03:04 AM
08/24/13 03:04 AM
Johann  Offline
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Active Member 2014

Retired Pastor
3000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
Iceland
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: Johann
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Johann, you're welcome. It's important to discuss truth in a civil way - truth can afford it. Seems to me we are guilty of the sins we ourselves commit - not the ones our parents or ancestors commit. "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him." Ezekiel 18:20. Infants sin because they are born that way. They cannot not sin. They must experience rebirth, abide in Jesus, partake of the divine nature, and then they can imitate Jesus' example of "righteousness and true holiness". Steps to Christ describes it very nicely.

Isn't that kind of double dealing by a "righteous" God?

Not sure what you mean, pastor. Please explain. Thank you.


I am referring to what you say that the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father but then the son is still guilty.

How can the child be guilty it does not carry the guilt of the parents


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: Are All Born Saved and All Choose to be Lost? [Re: asygo] #155385
08/24/13 04:25 AM
08/24/13 04:25 AM
APL  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: asygo
Not just DNA but our sinful spiritual nature as well.
asygo - do you believe in dualism? That there is something in us that is separate and independent of the body?


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Are All Born Saved and All Choose to be Lost? [Re: Mountain Man] #155386
08/24/13 04:25 AM
08/24/13 04:25 AM
APL  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
It seems partaking of the divine nature enables people to resist their DNA and imitate Jesus' godly traits of character.
Yes, we must be "born again".


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Are All Born Saved and All Choose to be Lost? [Re: APL] #155393
08/24/13 05:48 PM
08/24/13 05:48 PM
J
James Peterson  Offline
NON-SDA
Active Member 2019

Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
Canada
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
It seems partaking of the divine nature enables people to resist their DNA and imitate Jesus' godly traits of character.

Excellent thought there, MM. But what, in practical terms, does it mean to "partake of the Divine nature"?

....
...

Last edited by James Peterson; 08/24/13 05:49 PM.
Re: Are All Born Saved and All Choose to be Lost? [Re: Johann] #155400
08/24/13 10:47 PM
08/24/13 10:47 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Johann
M: Johann, you're welcome. It's important to discuss truth in a civil way - truth can afford it. Seems to me we are guilty of the sins we ourselves commit - not the ones our parents or ancestors commit. "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him." Ezekiel 18:20. Infants sin because they are born that way. They cannot not sin. They must experience rebirth, abide in Jesus, partake of the divine nature, and then they can imitate Jesus' example of "righteousness and true holiness". Steps to Christ describes it very nicely.

J: Isn't that kind of double dealing by a "righteous" God?

M: Not sure what you mean, pastor. Please explain. Thank you.

J: I am referring to what you say that the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father but then the son is still guilty. How can the child be guilty it does not carry the guilt of the parents

Oh, I see what you mean. Thank you for clarifying. As I read it, the son is guilty of his own sin. "All have sinned." "The soul that sinneth, it shall die . . . the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."

Romans
3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Re: Are All Born Saved and All Choose to be Lost? [Re: James Peterson] #155401
08/24/13 10:57 PM
08/24/13 10:57 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: James Peterson
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
It seems partaking of the divine nature enables people to resist their DNA and imitate Jesus' godly traits of character.

Excellent thought there, MM. But what, in practical terms, does it mean to "partake of the Divine nature"?

Perhaps it part of the "mystery of godliness". Somehow Jesus empowers us from within to resist the unholy clamorings of sinful flesh and to act out the fruits of the Spirit. Not sure how it works in practical terms but in the real world it means we are able to imitate Jesus' holy example of obedience. We can experience it but we can't explain it.

Quote:
The only way in which we can gain a more perfect apprehension of truth is by keeping the heart tender and subdued by the Spirit of Christ. The soul must be cleansed from vanity and pride, and vacated of all that has held it in possession, and Christ must be enthroned within. Human science is too limited to comprehend the atonement. The plan of redemption is so far-reaching that philosophy cannot explain it. It will ever remain a mystery that the most profound reasoning cannot fathom. The science of salvation cannot be explained; but it can be known by experience. Only he who sees his own sinfulness can discern the preciousness of the Saviour. {DA 494.4}

Re: Are All Born Saved and All Choose to be Lost? [Re: Daryl] #197888
08/25/24 03:55 PM
08/25/24 03:55 PM
dedication  Online Content
Global Moderator
Supporting Member 2022

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,635
Canada
"When the heart yields to the influence of the Spirit of God, the conscience will be quickened, and the sinner will discern something of the depth and sacredness of God's holy law, the foundation of His government in heaven and on earth. The "Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world," illumines the secret chambers of the soul, and the hidden things of darkness are made manifest. John 1:9. Conviction takes hold upon the mind and heart. The sinner has a sense of the righteousness of Jehovah and feels the terror of appearing, in his own guilt and uncleanness, before the Searcher of hearts. He sees the love of God, the beauty of holiness, the joy of purity; he longs to be cleansed and to be restored to communion with Heaven. {SC 24.2}

"Christ manifested a love that is incomprehensible; and as the sinner beholds this love, it softens the heart, impresses the mind, and inspires contrition in the soul. {SC 26.4}

He is speaking to the hearts of men and creating an inexpressible craving for something they have not. The things of the world cannot satisfy their longing. The Spirit of God is pleading with them to seek for those things that alone can give peace and rest--the grace of Christ, the joy of holiness. Through influences seen and unseen, our Saviour is constantly at work to attract the minds of men from the unsatisfying pleasures of sin to the infinite blessings that may be theirs in Him. To all these souls, who are vainly seeking to drink from the broken cisterns of this world, the divine message is addressed, "Let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." Revelation 22:17. {SC 28.1}

But let none deceive themselves with the thought that God, in His great love and mercy, will yet save even the rejecters of His grace. The exceeding sinfulness of sin can be estimated only in the light of the cross. When men urge that God is too good to cast off the sinner, let them look to Calvary. It was because there was no other way in which man could be saved, because without this sacrifice it was impossible for the human race to escape from the defiling power of sin, and be restored to communion with holy beings,--impossible for them again to become partakers
of spiritual life,--it was because of this that Christ took upon Himself the guilt of the disobedient and suffered in the sinner's stead. The love and suffering and death of the Son of God all testify to the terrible enormity of sin and declare that there is no escape from its power, no hope of the higher life, but through the submission of the soul to Christ. {SC 31.2}

Re: Are All Born Saved and All Choose to be Lost? [Re: Daryl] #197929
09/01/24 04:02 PM
09/01/24 04:02 PM
dedication  Online Content
Global Moderator
Supporting Member 2022

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,635
Canada
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
That seems to suggest people were already born condemned, Christ didn't come to condemn, He came because they were already condemned and His mission was to save them -- release them from this condemnation.
3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Now we see a line drawn between the condemned and the redeemed.
Those who take hold, by faith, believing and trusting Jesus Christ are not condemned.

3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

Those condemned remain so, because the light of truth and redemption came, but they rejected it.

3:21 But he that does truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Love of truth -- come to the light find truth in Jesus.

In the darkness is the
Romans 2:10 deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

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