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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#199039
09/02/25 12:47 AM
09/02/25 12:47 AM
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OP
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Revelation 10 and the Adventist Message Revelation 10 is situated between the sixth trumpet and the seventh trumpet. It points to time when the sixth trumpet is ending and the seventh is about to begin. A glorious heavenly Messenger is depicted; 10:2 And he had in his hand a little book open:People may argue over what this little book represents, but back about 200 years ago there was quite a firm understanding that it was the book of "Daniel". The French Revolution had happened, the papacy's political power had been hugely curtailed. People were studying the prophecies like they never remembered them being studied before. Before the French Revolution took place, Protestant Bible students (most Protestants based their prophetic studies on the historicist method) suggested a range of possibilities as to about when the 1260 year period started and ended. But with the rise of Napoleon and his new code of laws, and the exile of the pope by French general Berthier, there was, for a brief moment, agreement among Protestant scholars, that the 1260 years had ended. In 1798. All over we have reports of people opening their Bibles and studying the prophecies following 1798. The book of Daniel began to open up! What was actually sealed up in the book of Daniel" Interestingly, the Book of Daniel includes three texts where the sealing of at least a part of the book is mentioned, and each case the context refers to the end of time. 1. Daniel 12:4: ??Shut up the words, and seal the book, until the time of the end.??
2. Daniel 12:9: ??Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end.??
3. Daniel 8:26: ??Seal up the vision, for it pertains to many days hence.?? The time lines had been sealed -- until the time of the end. William Miller believed the little book in the Heavenly Messengers hands was the book of Daniel. He eagerly studied it's messages. Ellen White gave a clear -- The book that was sealed was not the book of Revelation, but that portion of the prophecy of Daniel which related to the last days. The Scripture says, "But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased" (Daniel 12:4). When the book was opened, the proclamation was made, "Time shall be no longer." (See Revelation 10:6.) The book of Daniel is now unsealed, {2 Selected Messages, page105} James White fully agreed writing in his "Life Sketches" pp 210-211: 1. The angel, in a most solemn manner, swore that there should be time no longer. This does not mean.. the angel declared that, time as measured by days, months and years, would cease; for the next verse speaks of the "days" of the voice of the seventh angel. 2. The angel holds in his hand, as he swears upon the subject of time, a little book open. It may be inferred from this language, that this book was at some time closed up. This was true of the book of Daniel. "But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book, even to the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased." Dan. 12,4 It was to be sealed only to the time of the end, when it was to be opened, knowledge of the subject of which it treats should be increased, and many run to and fro in the Scriptures and obtain knowledge upon the subject. If this open book in the hand of the angel represents the unsealed book of Daniel, how forcible the application of his solemn oath to the manner in which the close of prophetic time was proclaimed in 1844. "But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God shall be finished, as he had declared to his servants, the prophets." Verse 7. Why introduce the sounding of the seventh angel thus, unless his sounding commenced with the termination of the prophetic time? Revelation 10, verses 8 to 10, deals with the eating of the little book and its sweetness in the mouth and bitterness in the belly. Eating, in biblical symbolism, often represents internalizing as we see in John 6 in Jesus sermon on eating "Him"! Internalizing the gospel message, fully taking in God?s Word?making it a part of oneself. Those Millerites did make it part of themselves -- they believed! Jesus was coming very soon. The message was sweet, soon all the problems of this world would cease and heaven would be their home, heaven with Jesus! But bitterness followed. Not because Jesus isn't come soon -- He is coming soon! But there was still work to be done, both in heaven and on earth, just prior to that coming. The third angel's message (Rev. 14) needed to go forth.
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#199094
09/21/25 01:49 PM
09/21/25 01:49 PM
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OP
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Revelation chapter 10 and 11 are situated in time between the ending of the sixth trumpet and beginning of the seventh trumpet. They describe events that took place in 1790's (French Revolution, end of papal and kingly power) to 1844 (beginning of seventh trumpet). They mark the events that bring all the long timelines prophesized in Daniel to their end. (Rev. 10:6) They announce the beginning of the "time of the end". (Rev. 10:7) The beginning of Christ's last work in the heavenly sanctuary(Rev. 11:15-19). The seventh Trumpet covers the "time of the end" the "judgment" and final restoration. They announce that God's people will have thought they had preached their last message, but no, the seventh angel was to sound, and they had to prophesy again (Rev. 10:11) -- the time had come to proclaim the three angel's message to the world. (Rev. 14) The last urgent call to worship the Creator, for the hour of judgment was come, (Rev. 14:7)-- the heavenly court was seated, the books were opened and Jesus was brought to the Ancient of Days and now stands before that court (Dan. 7:10,13) naming the citizens of His soon to be established glorious kingdom, marking their permanent entry in the Book of Life, (Rev. 3:5)
During the seventh trumpet the truth of God's ark of the covenant in the Most Holy Place in heaven, is seen (Rev. 11:19) God's ten commandments are still under the mercy seat. The last battle against those who "keep God's commandments and have the testimony of Jesus" (Rev. 12:17) will rage.
But God delivers His people, the sky rolls back as a scroll (Rev. 6:14) and those commandments, now no longer under the mercy seat are revealed, and the blessing "Here is the patience of God's saints, here are they that keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus" is spoken. And all realize that indeed Jesus is KING of kings and Lord of lords. A day of wonder and rejoicing for God's people, but a day of reckoning, desperation and eternal lose and death, for those who resisted and fought against God's longsuffering, saving, cleansing love.
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#199145
10/20/25 04:32 PM
10/20/25 04:32 PM
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OP
Global Moderator Supporting Member 2024
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I began reading Cliff Goldstein's autobiography "An Adventist Journey" . Just read the first few chapters so far. Yet one thing stood out for me, in regard to the value of the historicist understanding of prophecy. Goldstein, in his youth, was a very secular (though Jewish) person, deeply interested in scientific information and atomic and subatomic, quantum fields, etc. etc. that defined his image of reality. Theology and stories about God and gods, all fell into an unrealistic heap of myths and legends not worthy of serious thought. What really challenged His world view, was not theology (not at first) but historicist interpretation of Biblical prophecy. For someone whose worldview rested totally on provable information, it was the historicist interpretation of Biblical prophecy that pried open his mind to a reality that there was a "God" who knew the future. There was a powerful intelligence above and beyond the material available for scientific and philosophical study. Just a short quote from pages 29-30. Think about it: I, in total ignorance of Adventists (in fact they hadn't told me what religion they were)...all sat in the health food store for my first Bible study. Daniel 2. ...We went through the king's dream, the death decree, all that, coming to the statue and then to the interpretation: Babylon, Media-Persia, Greece, Rome. I will never forget what followed...the breakup of Rome into the nations of modern Europe, reading the texts, "And as the toes of the feet were partly of iron and partly of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly iron and partly fragile. As you saw iron mixed with ceramic clay, they will mingle with the seed of men, but they will not adhere to one another, just as iron does not mix with clay (Dan,. 2:42-43) Having lived in Europe, having travelled in Europe, having studied European history, I was amazed at what I had just read. Some of these nations strong, some fragile? That's always been Europe. ..Mingle themselves with the seed of men? Europeans, from plebe to princes, have been intermarrying for centuries. And as far as not adhering to each other. Please! Between 1648-1789 for example, the European powers fought about 48 wars. Two World Wars in the 20th century alone. The 60th anniversary in 2017 of the European Union was cause of great celebration because it was the longest time in 2000 years that the nations of Europe were not spearing, javeling, bombing or gassing and shooting each other in mass, with the exceptions of the Balkans and now the Ukraine.... I looked up, tears in my eyes, and said to those in the health food store, "It's all true! It's all true!" Here in my hands was logical, rational, empirical evidence of God's existence and for His foreknowledge and sovereignty. And that is the beauty of the Historicist approach! It lays a firm foundation that God is real. He knows! His Word is true. The historicist interpretation takes us through events that have happened showing the battle between hosts of evil against the Host of the LORD. The prophecies don't stop in past history, historicism is a continuing story -- it continues on to the end of war, taking us on into the future with its map showing the methods and development of forces of the past to help us understand how these forces will executed the events of the future. Historicism verifies that God's prophesy is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#199146
10/21/25 05:27 PM
10/21/25 05:27 PM
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OP
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Scholars like to point out chiastic structures in the prophecies. Do Revelations "sevens" follow a chiastic structure? Maybe?
CHURCHES Deals with people's response to Christ.
A. Ephesus The first church embraces the full gospel message and with patience and perseverance labors for Christ. They began with fervent love in Christ, BUT they are loosing that love.
.....B. Smyrna The struggling church, faithfully clinging .....to Christ, but facing sever opposition.
.........C. Pergamos The rise of the papacy, and the .........call to hold fast and not deny Christ and His faith.
.............D. ThyatirTime of dominance of the papacy, ...............but her punishment is promised. Christ will win! ............... Hold fast.
.........C. Sardis The wounding of papacy. .........Reformers enlightened concerning God's grace. .........They work for Christ, but their work is not perfect. .........Promise overcomers will receive white robes.
.....B. Philadelphia The struggling church that loves .....the Lord, seeking truth, but facing opposition.
A. Laodicea The last church embraces message. It believes it has everything, but lacks fervent love in Christ and is urged to seek a relationship with Him. Those who open hearts door to Christ will have an everlasting close relationship with Him!!
THE SEALS Spreading and accepting the gospel message
A. The first seal embraces the gospel message and with power and conviction goes forth to bring it to the world.
.....B. The second seal is a struggling church, facing opposition .....The blood of the martyrs spreads the message.
.........C. The third seal, papacy arises. Truth is harder to .........find, people need to weigh information to find truth.
.............D. The fourth seal, dominance of the papacy ...............Gospel message seems obliterated, dead, trampled.
.........C. The fifth seal. Papacy is challenged, loosing power, yet .........fighting back. People receive gospel light of truth, and .........millions loose their lives sharing it. Cry for God to judge. .........Promise, He will judge, and give them white robes.
.....B. The sixth seal, the struggling church looking for Christ's ..... return amid mounting opposition, is promised that the .....armies seeking their destruction will run in terror to the ..... mountains to get away from Christ.
A. The last seal is silence. The message has done its work. God's people are sealed. The silence when He comes -- in which group will we find ourselves? Running away from Him, or rejoicing to meet Him in the air?
THE TRUMPETS The results of turning against Christ Trumpets are not about a single moment in time, but each cover a period of time.
A. The first trumpet concerns Jerusalem, a nation privileged above all nations. Holding the oracles of God, and having the Redeemer born into their race and dwelling physically among them. Their destruction an awful result of spurning His grace and seeking to destroy His messengers. It parallels with the last trumpet as the fall of Jerusalem is is an example of the fall of the whole world.
..... B. The second trumpet focuses on a "mountain" or .....powerful empire which first sought to suppress Christianity, .....then seemed to accept it, but persecution did not end, .....by uniting church and state it actually increased it. .....That empire, once the first republic, crashed into the sea .....of humanity casing intense upheaval.
.........C. The third trumpet warns of a system arising .........that would pollute the living water of the gospel. .........Turn it into bitter wormwood.
..............D. The fourth trumpet, reveals the papal dominance ...............which brings darkness as the Gospel message ...............seems obliterated, eclipsed.
.........C. The fifth trumpet. Byzantine Empire separated from .........the Papacy. Crusaders attacked and plundered them, .........but Byzantine was restored to power, and given 150 ......... years more of grace to separate fully from Papal error .........and seek Christ and be a witness of God's water of life, .........instead of the "wormwood". God could have saved them ......... from the Turks, had they turned to Him. But they didn't. .........Thus, like Jerusalem, their capital city was destroyed and .........they were scattered.
.....B. The sixth trumpet, is an explosion of information ..... world wide. The accumulated wisdom in the east released .....The Turks aggressive expansion helps Protestantism. .....Development of Colonialism, world travel. Much war. During .....this time church and state was dismantled. .....Both diabolic theories as well as truth were freed to develop. .....The last day powerful republic emerges. .....Power shifted from east to the west.
A. The last trumpet announces the endtime. God raises up a church giving it the sanctuary and endtime message, the gospel message, the pre-Advent message of the investigative judgment, pointing us back to the "day of atonement", there's the judgment of the dead, as well as living, an urgent message (the three angel's message) of repentance and turning back to the Creator in faith and obedience. Nations angry. Truth will be revealed (though many reject it) the thunder and lightening will take place, final justice is executed and Christ will reign.
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#199216
11/13/25 01:20 PM
11/13/25 01:20 PM
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OP
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Seen in chiastic structures the seven churches, seals and trumpets all follow a similar pattern. They begin with the bright glory of the first advent of Christ! Then they descend into many centuries of gray darkness. The bright glory of the first advent being covered and reaching it's darkest (almost obliterated) at the mid point. This is followed by intense and troublous activity as the gospel reemerges and ends in final glorious victory!
Rev. 8:12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day had light only a third part of it,
The question: Why this emphases on the "darkness" which seemed to triumph at the midpoint of the history of Christianity? Is there something about it that we need to know?
These "middle" years known as the "dark ages" have an important message which, if dismissed as having nothing to do with the future, robs people of understanding much of the richness of the final triumph over darkness.
The emphases of the 1260 years in Daniel and Revelation (Daniel 7:23-25, 12:7, Revelation 11:2-3, 12:6, 12:14) alerts us this is important! What, according to those prophetic words, do we find was happening during this period? It's a time when earthly dominion by a power that usurps God's authority and the rights of the individual wields control, a time of intolerance and persecution, a time when all that witnesses for God and the gospel is disregarded, people witness at peril of their very lives, a time when God's church, (the symbolic woman) is driven into the wilderness simply to survive.
Today the world fears of darkness coming by means of technological advanced weapons of destruction being unleashed, as a final world war leaves the world in rumbles, or a super covid bug wipes out humanity, or a total economic crash, as the great things to be feared. Yet those are not the primary concern of the prophecies. There's no doubt that terrible trouble is ahead, however, what do these prophecies emphasize as the greatest threat? The greatest thing to be "feared"?
What will bring a dark age back? What should be feared? It's political and religious dominance united in a rule by force, forced religious ritual, while the righteousness in Christ is ignored or belittled; personal conviction and private thinking stifled.
One lesson to learn from the "Dark Ages" is obvious, when church unites with the government in order to gain its end, replacing personal conviction with their version of piety, and the church calls on the government for aid to enforce their dogmas upon the people, civilization is not saved, it dies, true religion in obedience and trust to and in our Savior's leading is oppressed, while a form of devotion (with its adjusted commandments) is enforced.
This is why there is so much emphases in Revelation on what happened in the past, for that is the true danger that will force itself upon the world in the future.
Why is this greater to be feared than other disasters?
The greatest to be feared is that which tries to break our connection with our Savior.
The overcomers are they that resist the beast, his image and mark, and with patient endurance keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. Rev. 14:9.10,12
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
In the end, all tyranny shall end. They may fight against the Lamb, "but the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. Rev. 17:14 Revelation 21:6-7 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#199232
11/19/25 03:47 PM
11/19/25 03:47 PM
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OP
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We find reasons posted to discard the historicist understanding of the trumpets. We can only ask "WHY?" Why, even in the Adventist church do we find a drive to dismiss the historicist message? Here are some of the supposed reasons: Why the Trumpets Cannot Be Historical Several internal evidences confirm the trumpets belong to the final generation: Their events occur after the sealing (Rev. 7), which is future. To clarify -- Historicism, means understanding that the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation cover time from the prophet's day right down to the end of time. Adventists' original position of interpretation is Historicist or Historicism. (Revelation was not written by the prophet recounting history already past, John was given prophecy depicting the future centuries to unfold from the prophet's time to the end. From the time of Christ's ascension to His final victory.) The position that the trumpets occur AFTER the sealing distorts much of the understanding of the previous chapters. First it not only rejects the historicist interpretations of the trumpets, it first rejects the historicist interpretation of Revelation 4 and 5 by jumping straight way into the Most Holy Place ministry of Christ. This is basically rejecting (pushing aside) Christ's ministry in the Holy Place. Now popular interpretations have long argued that Christ, as our High Priest, went straight into the Most Holy Place. But that rejects the two phase priestly ministry of Christ. It basically pushes aside the fact that Christ had a priestly ministry in the Holy Place for 1810 years of Christian history. Again this is an adjustment that glosses over the usurpation of the earthly counterfeit that reigned over Christendom for many of those years. Far from supporting the investigative judgement it undermines one of the chief reasons for the investigative judgement. Remember the pre-Advent judgement in Daniel 7 is set up because of the "horn". (This horn represents a system with a false gospel being enforced, in the name of being Christ's true church) it's this "horn" with all it's false methods of salvation, and adherents to it's principles needing to be judged. During this time Christ was the true source of salvation, the true Priest. The investigation would come before Christ returns, but that phase had not yet begun. Revelation 4 and 5 is Christ, immediately after His ascension, entering the heavenly sanctuary and being declared worthy to be our High Priest in BOTH the Holy Place and later in the Most Holy Place. Because He was slain. Rev. 5:6 there stood a Lamb as it had been slain, Rev. 5:9 "Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for You were slain, and have redeemed us to God by thy blood.In the Holy Place, the sins of praying saints were forgiven, covered by Christ's blood, their confession and names written in the books of heaven. This was all in preparation for the final investigative judgement. The investigative judgment determines if we have given our sins to Jesus that He could cover them with His blood. The investigation however doesn't happen until the SEVENTH TRUMPET sounds and the " the time of the dead, that they should be judged," and the decision for "rewards" is made (Rev. 11:18) and it is then the ark of the testament is seen. (Rev. 11:19) in heaven. There is NO ark of the testament in the picture in Rev. 4 or 5, the only sanctuary items seen are seven lamps (representing the Holy spirit about to be poured out on Christ's church) and censers or vials full of odors representing prayers of saints. Revelation 4 and 5 marks the BEGINNING of Christ's High Priestly ministry in the heavenly sanctuary. And He begins in the Holy Place, not till the Seventh Trumpet does He enter the Most Holy Place where the ark is.
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#199233
11/19/25 04:28 PM
11/19/25 04:28 PM
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OP
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Second PointThe argument that the trumpets are all in the future still in our time, because they come after the seals, also rejects the historicist interpretation of Revelation 6 in which the scroll is unsealed. Interesting how the UNSEALING gets interpreted as "sealing"? It's true that the unsealing of the scroll does lead up to the time God's people are sealed, the unsealing of the scroll is not the sealing itself. Revelation 6 runs parallel to Revelation chapter 2 and 3, covering pretty much the same time periods. It begins as Christ, right after His ascension, took His place in the heavenly sanctuary as our High Priest. He has taken the book of God's covenant. The whole destiny of the world is in His hands. As the seals on the book of the covenant are removed it reveals how Christianity is responding to the covenant. The unsealing follows God's pattern of establishing a covenant with promises and curses in Deut. 27 and 28. After God brought Israel out from the bondage of Egypt, he made a covenant with them that contained certain conditions. If they cooperated with God and made Him their Lord and God, they would be blessed. But if they went after other gods and discarded God's commands and invitations, they would experience curses. These curses are things like war, famine, pestilence and natural destroyers. So when Christ returned to heaven and took the book of the covenant and entered into the sanctuary, we are shown how the new covenant was received by Christians who had been freed from the bondage of sin by the blood of Christ! As the first seal is removed it reveals Christians rejoicing in salvation (crowns on their head) on fire for the Lord, going out spreading the good news! As the second seal is removed it reveals suffering persecution and war. By the third and fourth opening of the seals, Christians are suffering famine, pestilence and wild beasts and death. Christianity was NOT cooperating with God making Him their Lord and Savior, thus Christianity was suffering all the curses! The removal of the seals is NOT the investigative judgment, at least not before the fifth seal. When the fifth seal is lifted we read about an urgent question. HOW LONG TILL YOU JUDGE??? And the reply is "wait" when the judgment takes place they will be given white robes, but this is not yet the second coming they have to "sleep" (be in their grave) a little longer. The investigative judgment begins somewhere after the fifth seal is removed. When the sixth seal is removed, that's when we find ourselves in the last days. All the signs of Christ's soon coming flashing by, and the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; Rev. 614-15 The sixth seal already shows Christ's second coming. People" say to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? (Rev. 6:16,17)Revelation 7 answers the question asked during the sixth seal ---"who shall be able to stand? The trumpets do NOT sound after the second coming. They run parallel with the seals. The seals showing Christian's response to the covenant, the trumpets show the judgments as they fell on those who rejected the covenant conditions in the past. Yes, a clear warning for the future! The same things that brought the curses in the past will also keep people from receiving future blessings if they follow the same path as those in the past. Their (the trumpets) judgments parallel the seven last plagues, which are future They culminate in events clearly located at the end of the age (Rev. 11:18?19) How could they run parallel? That means they would run congruently, at the same time. Why would God wait to sound this strong warning of trumpets AFTER the saints are all sealed and there is no more opportunity to change? To me it's plain, the trumpets have sounded. Six have given very important warnings that we need to seriously study. The seventh trumpet IS sounding, it announced the pre-Advent judgment, and the immanent coming, and that seventh trumpet will continue to sound till all things are finished. This contains the last terrible struggle and anger of nations, and the last plagues. IF we allow the trumpets to remain in their historicist position and purpose we will have a far better picture of the real crises about to descend upon the world. The curses that befell Christianity in the past are a clear warning for the future. Yes, the trumpets which reveal the curses that fell upon a covenant defying Christianity, are a strong warning for the future. The plagues are the final curse that falls upon all in defiance of God's covenant, and not in the safety of Christ's refuge and sustaining power. The plagues will be far more severe than the trumpets, and yes, the plagues are still future. Those who refuse to learn from the past, dismissing the historicist revelation of the trumpets, however, may not recognize the conditions that brought those curses, thus may even run to the "beast" in order to escape the "dragon" only to find themselves totally deceived and on the wrong side.
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#199249
11/26/25 12:52 PM
11/26/25 12:52 PM
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OP
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As we are also studying the book of Joshua we see parallels to the trumpets. At the beginning of the conquest of Canaan, trumpets sounded and the walls of Jericho tumbled down. God had opened the door for the conquest, the promises of God assured. Israel could move forward claiming the land. Their covenant with God was confirmed at the mount of blessings and cursings, they bore the sign in their bodies that they believed they were in the covenant relationship, they celebrated the first Passover, rejoicing in God's deliverance and in hope of possessing the land. In like manner, John and the other apostles are witnesses that Jesus confirmed the covenant of salvation with all who will believe. Jesus opened the door for all to take possession of the inheritance of hope. But the battles were just beginning. Hebrews chapters 3-4 show even though Joshua offered them rest, and with God's strength broke the resistance of the Canaanites, Israel did not receive that rest. Joshua shared with Israel what would happen as they would disregard God's covenant with them. And in the same manner John is showing what would happen to Christianity as they disregard the covenant (yes, the new covenant God makes with Israel Heb.8:8) Jesus has made this covenant with Israel. (All who are in Christ are the Israel, heirs of the promises Gal. 3:29)
The trumpets, all through Christendom outline the fierce battles. The forces of evil, though legally defeated will not give up their claim of the "land" without a roaring, fierce fight.
People will argue that the seven trumpets are still all in the future in our time, seemingly using the concept that Revelation's trumpet imagery is to express future warnings, not post-event descriptions.
Yes, indeed the seven trumpets are warnings for the future when this battle reaches it's final confrontations. BUT remember when Revelation was written! It was written in John's day, back in the first century. John the apostle was not writing history, he was writing about future events.
What was all future in John's day, becomes history as those prophecies are fulfilled.
As we come to the end of time, we know we are at the end of time because so many of the prophecies have been fulfilled. Six of the trumpets have given their warnings. From our point of view, standing on the brink of eternity, these messages give the example of history so we may know what these forces are which Satan has used, stock piled and developed to obliterate the truth of salvation in Christ from the view of people.
In the end it isn't volcanoes, climate change, pollution of the waters, disease or wars that are the reason people are lost. It is because they are not "in Christ" in covenant relationship of faith, trust, and obedience.
The ultimate reason people are lost is because they are not connected to Christ He is the only source of true happiness and salvation. Sadly, scripture reveals many will say, but we were working for you, yet Christ says "I never knew you, depart, you were working outside of my covenant. (See Matt.7: 22-23: Luke 13:27)
That's why the warnings stretch out over the years of Christianity. What is Christianity's response to Christ's covenant. What are the battles Satan has used and developed and will continue to use against Christianity to blind them to their rejection of salvation.
The trumpets don't sound after the censor is cast down and probation has already closed. they have sounded so we can look back and see that God foreknew what would happen. To look back and be solidified that there is no light in seemingly religious spiritual gatherings and powers that are operating outside of God's covenant. They give messages to gather courage from those that lost their lives because they loved and trusted Jesus, and honour Him.
In the end its those powers which the trumpets loudly identify and warn that their way was NOT living according to God's covenant and resulted in reaping painful results, that will (and are already) presenting themselves in such a way the masses of people will look to, for help to solve the world's problems.
We have nothing to fear except how God has guided and led in the past.
The seventh trumpet assures us there is a higher court, not all who say they are of Christ are followers of Christ. That higher court is determining who are followers of the "destroyer" and who are followers of Christ. It's in session right now, at the ark of the covenant, part of the seventh trumpet (Rev. 11:18-19, Daniel 7:9,10,13). We are to look to that ark of the covenant to understand. (Rev. 11:17) Jesus, right now is presenting the names of the overcomers before God the Father and all the angels, (Rev, 3:5) He has won back the lost inheritance for humanity and all who are with him (called, chosen and faithful) will inherit those blessed promises in the New Earth when He claims His right as King of kings and Lord of lords. Let's not reject the trumpets historicist messages and fail to recognize the issues which will attempt to keep us outside of Christ's covenant and saving power.
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#199252
11/26/25 06:32 PM
11/26/25 06:32 PM
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OP
Global Moderator Supporting Member 2024
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 7,205
Canada
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Why do people want to destroy the Historicist interpretation? Probably because they don't understand the Historicist interpretation. The historicist interpretation starts with the prophet's time. The purpose is not to predict future political events, or simply "rehash political tragedies of the past" but share a message which includes showing spiritual tragedy resulting from rejecting their Savior and His covenant. Another argument against Historicism is the idea that Jerusalem's fall in 70 AD John wrote about 20 years after Jerusalem's fall. The destruction of Jerusalem was already well-known in the early Christian world. It did not require a new vision to reinterpret it. It's fall has no direct implication for the world.The fall of Jerusalem definitely has world wide implication! It is definitely a warning to all future generations as Christianity began it's entrance into the world and on to the end of time. The historicist interpretation of the trumpets isn't just some isolated events in history. That is a distortion of the historicist method. The historicist method sees the story of professed people of God and their response to Christ's covenant, which was ratified on the cross and given as a gift to the world. Those trumpets reveal the results which follow because of the rejection of that gift over the centuries of time in the Christian era. That story began with the rejection of Christ by His own people. The rejection of Christ is the biggest reason, and basically the only reason, people are not saved, they remain lost, and will be destroyed, just as Jerusalem was. It sets the whole great controversy in vivid depiction. DANIEL'S VISIONS FOLLOW THE PATTERN: Daniel's prophesies started when Nebuchadnezzar was on the throne. Daniel was alive when several of the first scenes took place. Does that mean we need to reject the historicist interpretation because the head of gold in Daniel 2 and the lion in Daniel 7 (identified as Babylon) were already in power before Daniel wrote the vision? Does it imply there is no truth in interpreting the progression of the symbols that follow, coming on the scene still in the future for Daniel, like the terrible beast which represents Rome, or the horn which represents papal Rome? Now, for us all of those beasts are history, but still very relevant to understanding how things will shape up in the future. In historicism the prophet BEGINS with events in his own time and moves on to reveal where this is all going in the future as time progresses on to the final end. SOME SAY THE FIRST TRUMPET CAN'T REFER to Jerusalem? There's no 1/3 pattern, no cosmic fire, hail and blood. As to 1/3 pattern -- all that means is that the trumpets are not universal. It was mainly the people in Jerusalem itself who were destroyed in AD 70, as the center of their influence shattered. It was definitely a huge and terrible turning point for the nation. As to blood fire and hail -- there was much fire and blood, and the Romans catapulted the city with large stones, actually painting them black so they didn't reflect light as they came sailing down on the inhabitants. I'm sure there were still 2/3 of the Jewish nation along with "trees" their rabbis and leaders, who were alive, and who were not in the city at that time. However that rejection of Christ has seriously affected them for centuries to follow. The "green" grass was destroyed, not all grass. The trumpets have a lot of symbolic descriptions. In Psalms 23 green pastures are symbolic of peace and rest, but by rejecting Christ they rejected peace. This loss of peace was not just about those in the city who suffered the obvious result. (See Luke 19:42) Actually all who reject Christ end up rejecting true peace, which Christ alone can give. He leads His followers in those green pastures. ARE TRUMPETS LIMITED TO A SINGLE EVENT? While there are events that signal each trumpets main identity, their message is not a single event locked in one point in history, but issues that reach much, much further. The first trumpet, pointing us to the fate of Jerusalem which would not have happened had they accepted Christ as their Savior and Redeemer from sin, has tremendous impact, it is a powerful message for all ages, especially in the time of the end. The tears which Christ shed upon Olivet as He stood overlooking the chosen city were not for Jerusalem alone. In the fate of Jerusalem He beheld the destruction of the world. {COL 302.3}
The Saviour's prophecy concerning the visitation of judgments upon Jerusalem is to have another fulfillment, of which that terrible desolation was but a faint shadow. In the fate of the chosen city we may behold the doom of a world that has rejected God's mercy and trampled upon his law {GC 36.2}
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#199278
12/10/25 06:34 PM
12/10/25 06:34 PM
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OP
Global Moderator Supporting Member 2024
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 7,205
Canada
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The book of Revelation is a revelation about Jesus. Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants;
The book of Revelation is also a continuation and enlargement of the book of Daniel. We see the beasts of Daniel have evolved and merged into one beast by John the apostles time. Rev. 13: 2 describes this amalgamated beast -- body like a leopard, feet like the feet of a bear, mouth like the mouth of a lion, and yes, it is blasphemous, violent beast. (Compare Daniel 7)
The major difference between these two books is that Daniel wrote before Christ's incarnation, death and resurrection. Daniel wrote when the covenant for salvation was only known through, promise, ceremonies, and symbols. John, on the other hand, was written after Jesus had come to confirm the covenant, ratify it with His own blood. Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant... putting an end to the ceremonial sacrifices. Daniel 9:25 Christ is Messiah the Prince Daniel 11:22 also the prince of the covenant.
There is another prince Eph 2:2 the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience. Daniel also talked about that prince Dan. 9:26 the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. and the end thereof shall be with a flood Dan. 11:22 And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yes, also the prince of the covenant. That "other" prince, while primarily satan, is Rome as the earthly power.
Next notice what is under attack in verses written by Daniel pointing to time after Christ's first coming. Daniel 11:28 his heart shall be against the holy covenant; Daniel 11:30 have indignation against the holy covenant: Daniel 11:31 do wickedly against the covenant
Revelation is all about the covenant that Christ came to confirm.
What is the covenant?
Is it God's law? Is it the Sabbath? The law and the Sabbath are very much part of the covenant. But if that were all there was to the covenant it won't do us any good. None what-so-ever.
The problem -- Daniel 9:11 all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Therefore all are cursed, their sins condemn them, no matter how much they try to do to balance the score, they sinned and their wages is death.
When Jesus came to confirm the covenant with His own blood, it was to offer forgiveness, justification, pardon, to all who responded to His love, and turned their backs on sin, and look to him for cleansing to be sanctified by His power and Spirit.
An amazing gift of grace! A gift that should awaken intense love for our Savior and led us into close fellowship with Him!
BUT
Though Revelation repeatedly shows us Christ working to implement the blessings of the covenant; taking the book of the covenant, (Rev. 5) Tending his church on earth, offering them great promises if they would only believe in Him and overcome in His name, (1 John 5:4,5) urging them to "wash their robes" in His blood and be clean (Rev. 7:14) counselling them (Rev. 1-3) leading His people (Rev. 14:1), interceding in the heavenly sanctuary for mankind's salvation (Rev. 8:2-4), Yet what is mankind's reception?
THE FIRST TRUMPET Christ came to His own people -- the ones who had all the prophecies, the ones who had the covenant in promise, ceremonies and symbols. The ones who should have welcomed Him with glad voice! But His own received Him not. The same prophet who recorded the prophecies of Revelation wrote: John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
The Jewish nation rejected Him, so their probation as the nation to be the light of the gospel to the world went out. Their position as God's special people ended in 34 AD. The first trumpet sounded soon after.
Terrible -- rejecting Christ unleashes the powers of sin, and the results are terrible. Blood, fire, hail -- terrible lose. Yet every person in that nation who accepted Christ and His salvation, escaped the destruction!
Those trumpets reveal the results which follow because of the rejection of that gift, the gift of the covenant of grace, ratified by Christ's blood, for the salvation of mankind from sin, to be justified and sanctified by His power. They show the results not just for the Jewish nation but over the centuries of time in the Christian era.
The rejection of Christ is the biggest reason, and basically the only reason, people are not saved, they remain lost, and will be destroyed, just as Jerusalem was. It sets the whole great controversy in vivid depiction.
The law can not save anyone. The leaders in Jerusalem back there in AD 30, were very law centered, outwardly, they were keeping the Sabbath, but without Christ and His spirit, it was not true righteousness. When the true principles and reality of God's law is part of a person's life it demonstrates that the person has Jesus in their lives, He is their Savior, Redeemer, Sanctifier, and Lord. They follow the Lamb where ever He leads.
When we read from the book Great Controversy what takes place before the Great White Throne Judgment -- what is revealed to the lost? It is Christ's self sacrificing love, on the cross, and all the appeals to each person to "come" and be saved, that are revealed, and how they had stifled and pushed aside each appeal. Seeing this, all declare that God is not only just, but full of love, they had rejected HIM, that's why they are on the outside of the city of life and eternal love and righteousness.
Thus yes, the 1st trumpet, gave the warning -- way back at the beginning of Christianity. Have we listened to it? Have we accepted the PRINCE of the Covenant.
All the trumpets give distinct messages from history, it's all about the danger of rejecting Christ's covenant of grace and righteousness. All those messages are still sounding today, more urgently than ever before. Because soon probation will close for the whole world.
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Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
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