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Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
#198414
01/27/25 05:55 PM
01/27/25 05:55 PM
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OP
Global Moderator Supporting Member 2024
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First -- yes, Revelation is a very important letter to God's people. We need to study it, and the lessons learned from that study is ever increasing (as it does for all who mine deeply into the Word of God), new treasures are found continually.
Yet, there is considerable concern as we see the whole interpretive structure carefully studied out by our forefathers, which laid the very foundation of our faith in prophecy, being thrown out. While we can acknowledge that the Adventist pioneers relied heavily on history books rather than the Biblical purpose of the trumpets, and that Ellen White made no explanation at all concerning the first five trumpets, thus leaving the meaning of those trumpets rather open to further study, yet we need to remember they had built a sturdy structure for interpreting Revelation, including the seven trumpets. And we need to take that structure serious.
That structure upon which our understanding of Daniel and Revelation is built is called "historicism".
What is historicism?
Historicism is an approach to explaining existing beliefs by studying the process or history by which they came about. Interpreting prophesy by the historicist model is seeing how the beliefs which God gave the prophets, were treated, modified, and acted upon, or not acted upon, changed, rediscovered, and fought for or against and how they now exist in our present world. By this we can see how far, or close they are to Biblical truth, and why people believe what they do?
Historicism looks at the whole of Bible prophecy as a sweeping overview of church history, from the time of the prophet to whom the revelations were given, to the end times. This approach involves defining if something is a symbol, figure, or type in the Bible, and seeking it's meaning within the Bible itself. Historicism was especially the method used during the Reformation, when it was clear to the reformers that Christianity had apostatized and the Roman papacy had a very large part in that apostacy, with the papacy becoming Antichrist.
Why is historicism so unpopular now?
The counter Reformation was to a large degree established to counter Protestantism and bring the papal controlled Christianity back into power. So the Jesuits studied hard to find new interpretations for prophecy that left the papacy out of prophetic fire.
Preterists -- Revelation was mainly for the Jews and their upcoming problems and the destruction of their nation by imperial Rome. Futurists -- Revelation is not about the Christian church and it's development and history, it is about the end times. The tribulation. The restoration of the Jews, the coming of Christ to rule the nations.
Most of these reconsidering movements concerning Revelation within Adventism are basically adopting the futurist approach with a little Adventist flavor. Except for the seven churches (which basically address Christian believers) everything else is pushed into the end times (the future). This removes the whole development of the schemes of satan throughout Christian history. It leaves the trumpets open to speculation, and many place them after probation closes, when it's too late for them to do anything other than announce terrible things will happen to those who didn't accept Christ.
It seems wise to study Revelations trumpets (and seals) with the historicist perspective.
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#198415
01/28/25 01:43 AM
01/28/25 01:43 AM
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OP
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Revelation is the "The Revelation of Jesus Christ" When the books of Daniel and Revelation are better understood, believers will have an entirely different religious experience. They will be given such glimpses of the open gates of heaven that heart and mind will be impressed with the character that all must develop in order to realize the blessedness which is to be the reward of the pure in heart. The Lord will bless all who will seek humbly and meekly to understand that which is revealed in the Revelation. This book contains so much that is large with immortality and full of glory {18MR 24.2} {TM 114.3} Every segment in Revelation reveals things about Jesus. It gives us glimpses into heaven where we see Jesus. In Revelation 1-3 we see Jesus and His love and care for His people in the church throughout the Christian ages. In Revelation 4-5 we glimpse into heaven, a door is standing open, (4:1) and we look into the sanctuary, we are in the "holy place" and see the candle stick with seven blazing lamps, (4:5) before the throne of God. We see bowls of incense (5:8) in vision the apostle John was granted a view of the temple of God in heaven, he beheld there "seven lamps of fire burning before the throne." Revelation 4:5. He saw an angel "having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne." Revelation 8:3. Here the prophet was permitted to behold the first apartment of the sanctuary in heaven; . . . {FLB 202.3} But in Revelation 4 there is a problem, there is no one worthy to officiate and carry out the agreements of the covenant contained in the scroll. There is no Priest to officiate in the heavenly sanctuary. John weeps bitterly as he knows without some one worthy to open that scroll and officiate in the temple, all mankind was lost. There would be no redemption! But a Lion of the tribe of Judah (a king from the human line) appears, yet not as a Lion, He is the Lamb appearing "as if it had been slain". Christ appears before the Father to present His blood. Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Hebrews 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament
Rev. 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for you were slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; The sanctuary was open! Jesus is inaugurated as the Divine High Priest and given all power to administer all the promises and provisions of the covenant. The first work of the Great High Priest was to send forth the Holy Spirit. "He had seven eyes which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth" Rev. 5:5 Christ's ascension to heaven was the signal that His followers were to receive the promised blessing. For this they were to wait before they entered upon their work. When Christ passed within the heavenly gates, He was enthroned amidst the adoration of the angels. As soon as this ceremony was completed, the Holy Spirit descended upon the disciples in rich currents, and Christ was indeed glorified, even with the glory which He had with the Father from all eternity. The Pentecostal outpouring was Heaven's communication that the Redeemer's inauguration was accomplished. According to His promise He had sent the Holy Spirit from heaven to His followers as a token that He had, as priest and king, received all authority in heaven and on earth, and was the Anointed One over His people. {AA 38}
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#198416
01/28/25 02:29 AM
01/28/25 02:29 AM
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OP
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The next two chapters, Rev. 6 and 7, describe the seals, but we will leave the seals for another thread and move on to the trumpets, beginning in chapter 8. Like the seven churches and the seven seals, the seven trumpets first give us a glimpse into heaven to show us what is taking place there the whole time those trumpets are giving their message. The heavenly scene begins while Christ is still in the first apartment of the heavenly sanctuary: He (John) saw an Angel "having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne." Revelation 8:3. Here the prophet was permitted to behold the first apartment of the sanctuary in heaven; . . . {FLB 202.3} Rev. 8:2-5 is a full sequence of Christ's heavenly ministry in both the holy place and the most holy. From beginning to end, depicting His ministry in the first apartment of the sanctuary as He intercedes for His people in the holy place, then we see the transition into the Most Holy Place as He places the hot coals from the altar of incense into the censor and with incense enters the Most Holy Place. The scene takes us to the end, when Christ's work in the sanctuary is finished, and the censor is cast down. Revelation 8:2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets. They were given the trumpets, at the beginning of Christ?s ministry in the heavenly sanctuary. It's like John writing that seven angels were given seven trumpets, but before we get into their trumpet messages, we need to see Jesus and what He is doing while those trumpets sound their warnings. Remember what Jesus is doing while those trumpets give some rather startlingly messages! 8:3 And another Angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer [it] with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
8:4 And the smoke of the incense, [which came] with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand. Christ's ministry in the heavenly temple's holy place is one of intercession. We don't see an angry God, but rather a pleading God. Saying, I died for you, accept me, pray to me, my blood will cover your sins and I will make you holy through my merits and power. 8:5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, This is the transition, when Jesus moves from the Holy Place into the Most Holy. On the day of atonement the high priest took a golden censor, filled it with fire from the altar of incense, and entered the Most Holy Place. Lev. 16:12-15 And he (the high priest) shall take a censer full of burning coals of fire from off the altar before the LORD, and his hands full of sweet incense beaten small, and bring it within the veil: .. that the cloud of the incense may cover the mercy seat that is upon the testimony, that he die not: ?and sprinkle the blood with his finger, seven times upon the mercy seat?.to make atonement? And when His work of atonement was complete he come out with the censor and put it down. So Christ when He has finished His ministry in the Most Holy Place will cast down the censor into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#198417
01/28/25 01:21 PM
01/28/25 01:21 PM
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OP
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Christ's Ministry while the trumpets are calling people to repentance.
| CHRIST'S SANCTUARY MINISTRY | SEVEN TRUMPETS |
| Rev.8:2 And I saw the seven angels which stood
before God; and to them were given seven
trumpets. | Rev. 8:6 And the seven angels that had the seven
trumpets prepared themselves to sound |
| CHRIST'S WORK IN THE HOLY PLACE
Rev. 8 :3-4 And another angel came and stood at
the altar, having a golden censer; and there was
given unto him much incense, that he should
offer [it] with the prayers of all saints upon the
golden altar which was before the throne.
And the smoke of the incense, which came with
the prayers of the saints, ascended up before
God out of the angel's hand. | Six Trumpets Sound
Rev. 8:7 ? 9:21
The first angel sounded..
The second angel sounded..
The third angel sounded..
The Fourth angel sounded..
Angel flying in midst of heaven, saying loudly,
woe, woe, woe, to the inhabitants of the earth.
The fifth angel sounded..
The sixth angel sounded...
But the people repented not.
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| Revelation 10 and 11 | Rev. 11 Atheism rises from the pit. The Bible is
"killed" but is resurrected to great prominence.
God's last day Church also rises
Rev. 10 In the days of the voice of the seventh
angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery
of God should be finished.
Take the book, eat it, sweet in mouth, but bitter
in stomach. You must prophecy again. |
| CHRIST'S WORK IN THE MOST HOLY
Rev. 8:5 And the angel took the censer, and filled
it with fire of the altar, This the earthly priest would do before entering the Most Holy on the Day of Atonement
Lev. 16:12-15 And he shall take a censer full of
burning coals of fire from off the altar before the
LORD, and his hands full of sweet incense beaten
small, and bring it within the veil: .. that the
cloud of the incense may cover the mercy seat
that is upon the testimony, that he die not: ..and
sprinkle the blood with his finger, seven times
upon the mercy seat..to make atonement.. |
SEVENTH TRUMPET
Rev. 11:15,19 And the seventh angel sounded;..
And the temple of God was opened in heaven
and there was seen in his temple the ark of his
testament
INVESTIGATIVE JUDGMENT
Rev.11:18 The time of the dead, that they should
be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward
unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints,
and them that fear thy name, small and great; |
| END OF SANCTUARY WORK Priest comes out of the sanctuary and intercession ceases
Rev. 8:5 And He cast the censor into the earth:
and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake. |
END OF THE TRUMPET SOUNDINGS
Rev. 11:19 and there were lightnings, and voices,
and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail. |
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#198418
01/28/25 04:50 PM
01/28/25 04:50 PM
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OP
Global Moderator Supporting Member 2024
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Some will say, "But the trumpets come after Christ throws down the censor," not realizing John often describes one side to its conclusion and then goes back to fill in what brought things to that point. There is a pattern which helps us understand. For example, Revelation 14. John begins by describing a victorious view of the 144,000 with Christ on Mount Zion, and follows that with the three angel's messages, but we do not conclude by this that the three angel's messages are proclaimed AFTER the 144,000 are singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. We realize the 3 angels? message prepares the 144,000 to stand with the Lamb. In the same way, the trumpets sound before the close of probation to call out and prepare people to stand vindicated in the pre-Advent judgment as well as to stand for Christ when probation closes. Let's look at the first four trumpets, their message which sounded loudly in the past and continue to warn, and call to the generations following. The messages are cumulative, not just historical interest points, though the historical issues are all part of the process or history as it developed. "Every form of evil is to spring into intense activity. Evil angels unite their powers with evil men, and as they have been in constant conflict and attained an experience in the best modes of deception and battle, and have been strengthening for centuries, they will not yield the last great final contest without a desperate struggle." {Mar 257.4} What are the "modes of deception" that evil angels have developed as the best modes of deception over the centuries? These deceptions developed in historic sequence in the past. It's important to know the warnings from the past, in order to recognize these deceptions that are to spring into intense activity in the end. We can be sure they have developed their deceiving power over all those centuries!
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#198419
01/28/25 07:04 PM
01/28/25 07:04 PM
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OP
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FIRST TRUMPET Revelation 8:7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and lightning mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.
| | BIBLICAL CLUES The gospel message was first given to the Jews! Luke 24:47 ?and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.?
Romans 2:9There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
Isaiah 28 warns Israel that they would be held to the plummet (judged) and hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, as God would do his work, his strange work; because they rejected, the "foundation stone" a sure foundation:
Matthew 23:13,38 -- Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you shut up the kingdom of heaven, you won?t go in yourselves, and you won?t allow anyone else to go in either?. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that kill the prophets, and stone them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered your children together, even as a hen gathers her chickens under [her] wings, and you would not! 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. . ?the visitation of judgments upon Jerusalem is to have another fulfillment, of which that terrible desolation was but a faint shadow." {GC 36.2} Trees and Grass symbolize living things, often people are compared to different trees, or to grass.
| HISTORICIST interpretation: Remember Jerusalem 70 AD.
They were the first to be given the gospel message! They were called to repentance. Christ Himself dwelt among them. After His death and resurrection, the message was proclaimed to them for another three and a half years, 31-34 AD. The call was given: (Acts 3:19) ?Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord? While a remnant believed, most did not. The messengers were persecuted and some killed, the believers scattered. Probation closed for the Jews, as a nation. They had rejected their Savior. They had rejected the One to Whom all their ceremonies pointed. They rejected the Messiah and clung to all the ceremonies, and traditions as if they were the real thing. They descended into internal strife and darkness, ending in terrible destruction in 70 AD. Their city and sanctuary was burnt and totally destroyed, all within the city died. (But none who believed and obeyed the warning were in the city) This first trumpet is alerting the world that a time comes when mercy ceases. It is a warning for ?the visitation of judgments upon Jerusalem is to have another fulfillment, of which that terrible desolation was but a faint shadow." {GC 36.2} Back then it was only a part of the world. A time is coming when it will be total.
It's a warning to the Christian world in many ways, as we see in Romans 11:19-21 "You will say, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Be not high-minded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not you.
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SECOND TRUMPET And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood. Revelation 8:8; | | BIBLICAL CLUES A mountain signifies a great nation or kingdom with authority and power. It can mean God?s kingdom, or earthly kingdoms. Is. 37:13 (God says) he that puts his trust in me shall possess the land, and shall inherit my holy mountain;
Joel 3:17 I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain:
Jeremiah 51:24-25 I will render unto Babylon? I am against thee, O destroying mountain, saith the LORD? and will make thee a burnt mountain.
The sea:
The sea, a body of water, symbolizes "peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues" (Revelation 17:15). In Daniel 7, the great earthly kingdom (beasts) all rise up out of the sea.
They were presented to the prophet Daniel as beasts of prey, rising when the "four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea." [Daniel 7:2.] Winds are a symbol of strife. The four winds of heaven striving upon the great sea, represent the terrible scenes of conquest and revolution by which kingdoms have attained (or lost) to power. We can also note the negative warnings of God against His people uniting with state powers.
| HISTORICIST interpretation: Remember what happened around 476 AD. The Mighty Roman Empire Fell.
It fell AFTER the gospel message was presented to them. As the jewish nation rejected the gospel the messengers travelled all over the known world, preaching the gospel to the Gentiles! At first imperial Rome persecuted those who believed, but then came a big change, the emperor Constantine seemingly embraced Christianity, and it became the state religion; The sword of civil power was now available to the church, but the message of repentance and grace did not reach the hearts. They took the Christian name, but did not change in character. Rome fell, not just because of the Barbarians, but because corruption filled their lives. A mountain symbolizes a great nation. (See Jeremiah 51:25) Its destruction, depicted as a great burning mountain plunging into a turbulent and chaotic sea of humanity, it arose from a turbulent sea and plunges back into it with great turbulence.. The fall changed the whole shape of civilization and economic trade in the western world. Remember that seemingly unconquerable, ruthless, persecuting and oppressing, warring, western Roman empire, was cast into the sea of humanity, amid a lot of confusion and bloodshed. Don't look to human built mountains for answers for life. Come to God's holy mountain of salvation and life. Don't put your trust in the might of flesh. Oppressive human powers will fall! As Rome fell in the 5th century, in like manner Roman's collective mountains, which will seem so powerful in the end, will also fall.
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#198421
01/28/25 10:02 PM
01/28/25 10:02 PM
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OP
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THIRD TRUMPET Revelation 8:10-11 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.
| BIBLICAL CLUES
STARS Revelation 1:20 :20 The mystery of the seven stars which you saw in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels (leaders) of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which you saw are the seven churches. Revelation 2 and 3 The stars (angels) are religious leaders (pastors) of the seven churches.
2:1 Unto the angel (star) of the church of Ephesus write..
2:8 And unto the angel (star) of the church in Smyrna write..
2:12 And to the angel (star) of the church in Pergamos write..
In Rev. 12, we see the woman with a crown of twelve stars, denoting the 12 tribes, or the 12 apostles. Again these are religious leaders. BURNING AS IT WERE A LAMP Two verses have lamps on the lampstands (1:20 and 4:5) they seem to signify the churches receiving messages from the Holy Spirit. But the phrase "as it were" implies this is not the real thing, it's a counterfeit. WORMWOOD, signifies bitter, poison, the term appears eight times in the Old Testament, each time associated with bitterness, poison and death, paired with "the water of gall" Jer. 9:15. | HISTORICIST VIEW Out of the ashes of Rome's fall rose the papal power. Already groomed by the imperial Roman power, he took the seat of Rome. We are reminded that the message of God's grace and salvation was to be carried by the stars or angels (church leaders) (See Revelation 1:20) to the world as they received their strength from Christ and the Holy Spirit. But now another spirit was directing the church leader who had seated himself, over the church. Most modern interpretations of the trumpets try to sidestep the fact that this was a serious event that would shape and mislead the world for years to come. This religious leader, sitting as the head of the church, has fallen spiritually, he no longer has heaven?s pure gospel and is turning the fresh water ? the water of life from God's throne, into bitter poisonous wormwood. This star, like a lamp, while it points primarily to the papacy who is the human agent, also refers to Satan. The letters sent to the seven "stars" or "angels" of the churches in Revelation 2 and 3 are messages from the God of heaven for the church leaders to share with their congregations. But in the third trumpet there is a warning that a serious change has taken place as the top church leader (papacy) received his power from the fallen star, the dragon (see Rev.13:2). Signifying that another spirit had entered right into leadership of Christian Church.
The last day issues over worship are not something that satan invents at or near the close of earth?s history! No, he already gained control and poisoned the gospel truth along with God?s commandments through a system that claimed to represent God more than a thousand years ago, and that same system still claims to represent God, it holds the same darkened doctrines it developed back then, and people wonder after him as if he had the solutions to life?s problems, even now, in our day.
As the human star, or top church leader was rising to prominence, it was actually falling into apostasy, receiving its marching orders from the original fallen one that appears as a lamp of light.
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#198422
01/29/25 12:36 PM
01/29/25 12:36 PM
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OP
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FOURTH TRUMPET THE DARK AGES
Fourth Trumpet Revelation 8:12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.
Bible parallels, clues or meanings:
Darkness Psalms 82:5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: Ps. 107:111 Such as sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, bound in affliction and iron; Because they rebelled against the words of God, regarding with contempt the counsel of the most High. Matthew 6:23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great [is] that darkness! John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. Sun Malachi 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; 1 Cor. 1:30 Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: Moon ? reflected light. Can refer to people reflecting God?s character in their lives. Standing on Bible as their foundation, having followed the light of the OT to Jesus, the glorious light.
Revelation 12 shows "a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet". God's church, in contrast with the Babylonian woman of Rev. 17. The pure church clothed in the light of Christ's righteousness, contrasted with the Babylonian church in darkness arrayed in earthly splendor that has no light. Historicist Interpretation of the fourth trumpet
The Dark Ages. From about 538 and lasting several centuries. The light of truth is eclipsed. This is the result of what happens when a human pretends to be God, sitting in the temple of God, using the sword to divert spiritual worship to themselves.
The dark ages is a term used more by Protestants than Catholics. A term now being contested, because the system that created the dark ages, now, once again, seeks to be thought of as the ?light of the world?. But we need to remember that it was a time of darkness for the common people. A false Christian power eclipsed the sun of righteousness, withheld the Bible from the people, and ?priests? taught falsehoods, the wine of Babylon. Placed themselves, mere sinful humans, above the God of heaven, claiming power to change God's law (deleting the second commandment and changing the fourth), claiming power to forgive sins, sending people to a sinful human to confess their sins and obtain forgiveness, claiming the keys to heaven and using them to control kings and princes, using the sword and force to keep the people in darkness. Making merchandize of God's grace.
It was indeed like an eclipse, where a whole region of earth only got a few glimpses of the glorious truths of the gospel still shining behind the darkness that obscured it.
Remember, Rome has not changed. It is no more "light" now, than it was in the darkness of the Dark Ages.
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#198443
02/04/25 05:30 AM
02/04/25 05:30 AM
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OP
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Seven's in Revelation. The book of Revelation begins with several sevens, that place the whole book of Revelation as covering the whole ministration of Jesus for our redemption. Revelation is a continuation of John's account of the gospel. A revelation of Jesus, Who had come to this world to bring light, and life to all nations. All things were placed in His hands by the Father, that all who believe in HIM should not perish but have everlasting life. The big question in John 14, when Jesus said He was going away, was Lord where are you going? John 14:3-6 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there you may be also. And where I go you know, and the way you know. Thomas answered him, Lord, we don't know where You go; and how can we know the way? 14:6 Jesus says unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes unto the Father, but by me. Several years later we see John exiled for believing and teaching the glorious gospel of Jesus Christ, Who was slain for our redemption, but Who is alive. And He will come again. But what is Christ doing? Why hadn't He come? What is happening in heaven, and what will become of the gospel they had proclaimed at the risk of their very lives? Indeed all the apostles, save John, had been murdered. The believers were suffering. John was bidden to write and send this message to literal churches with literal people, who needed encouragement, needed to know what was happening with Christianity, with the whole story of redemption -- would it succeed, or would it be snuffed out? Would Christ really win, it seemed like evil would win, what did the future hold? John is talking about time NEAR, "write therefore, what you have seen, what is NOW and what will take place later." (1:19) John is taken to heaven in vision to see what Christ is doing in heaven. He sees, what Jesus had told them as He walked and talked with them here on earth, was really true! John 16:17 Some of His disciples then said to one another, ?What is this thing He is telling us, ?A little while, and you will not see Me; and again a little while, and you will see Me?; and, ?because I go to the Father??? John 17:11 I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are. Revelation is Jesus, coming to John there on that island, and giving him this message of what He, Jesus is doing in heaven. Showing him that the gospel will go to all the world, it would go through some very rough times, with the forces of evil seeking to darken and even attempt to extinguish the gospel, but hold on, cling to the promises, Jesus is working all through the ups and downs of the whole Christian era, and He will win! He has the SEVEN EYES that see the end as well as the beginning and everything in between. He has SEVEN HORNS of power He has SEVEN lamps He has SEVEN letters of encouragement He has SEVEN seals He has the complete SEVEN of salvation. The enemy will come with it's seven heads, seven crowns, seven kings, but they will not be complete sevens, they will attain only to 666. Revelation 4 and 5 is NOT announcing the investigative judgment, it is announcing the opening of the sanctuary ministry. It is announcing Christ's inauguration as it's great and only High Priest. It is the glorious scene of Christ being declared WORTHY to take the scroll of the everlasting covenant and work out the fullness of it's provisions, promises, bringing redemption to all who come to Him for life, light, forgiveness and salvation. That ministry includes everything from His work in the holy place as well as the investigative judgment in the Most holy place. It includes the grand final conclusion when He comes with the clouds and every eye will see Him. For some it will great joy, for others great loss. Only He is worthy to implement and execute all that it (God's covenant) contains for He paid the price on Calvary, He alone can redeem us. He has opened the door of salvation. Through Him we are reunited with God. God's covenant is the WHOLE story of Christ's work and relationship with the world for which He has died, that they might have life. He is ministering, seeking to save, not just for those living at the end, but for every generation, because it involves all generations. And He will win! We can have that assurance, even though current earthly situations make it seem like evil is winning. And that sad truth is also revealed in the Revelation, showing satan's determination and schemes over the centuries to keep people away from Jesus. But Jesus gave His life to save, and is daily ministering for salvation. The message was just as important for the Waldensians in the mountains, for the victims of the inquisition, for the reformers as they discovered truth in scripture, as it is for those living in the last days. There is one great central truth to be kept ever before the mind in the searching of the Scriptures--Christ and Him crucified. Every other truth is invested with influence and power corresponding to its relation to this theme. . . . The soul palsied by sin can be endowed with life only through the work wrought out upon the cross by the Author of our salvation
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#198444
02/04/25 07:11 AM
02/04/25 07:11 AM
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OP
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Sanctuary Scenes | Churches | Seals | Trumpets | Comments |
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Christ is in the heavenly sanctuary as our intercessor, our help, life, and hope. |
Church?s condition, it?s needs, reproofs and promises |
Major issues of the church throughout Christian history |
Consequences |
Every Evil of the past will seek to conquer, but remember, Jesus wins! |
Rev. 4-5 Jesus inauguration as our high priest, all things in His hands to fulfil covenant. (John 13:3)
The only One worthy. (Rev. 5:9) He is in the Holy Place: Jesus among the seven lampstands (1:12) Jesus, mediating before the altar of incense (Rev. 8:3-4)
| Ephesus
The zeal of the believers taking the Gospel to the world. Resisting false teachings. Enduring hardship.
Though as time passes the love and commitment lessen. Urged to remember that lost love, and repent.
PROMISE for overcomers; food from tree of life. | First Seal White Horse, the gospel goes forth in its purity, with arrows of truth to convict the world. | The first Trumpet Judgment of
hail and fire mingled with blood. The gospel was given first to the Jews. They had the Messiah Himself walk in their midst.
The fate of Jerusalem, a people who claimed to be God's people, but who rejected Christ and the gospel, and persecuted those who believed. Their house is left desolate. (Matt. 23:28) | The Light of the Gospel has gone forth in purity and truth, but men loved darkness rather than light. (John 3:19)!
Importance of Jesus and centrality of His gospel. A form of religion is not enough, we need the love, commitment and saving power found only in redemption in Jesus.
A warning, deceptions will arise concerning Jerusalem, attempts to re-establish the forms, rebuilt temple, etc. |
| Rev. 8:3-4 Jesus, in the holy place, standing before the altar of incense offering much incense which is the prayers of the saints mixed with His merits | Smyrna
The persecuted church Trials and poverty, but in Christ they are rich.
Promise to Overcomers: they will receive A crown of life, and though they may die now, they will NOT die the second death but receive eternal life | A Red horse
The persecuted church.
Persecuted by the Jews, and pagan Rome, until they made a league with Rome uniting church and state.
Emperor claimed to defend Christianity and persecution continued on those who objected, Thus the sword of persecution was given to the church. | The second trumpet
?a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea?.
Mountain=nation or empire. The sea=throngs of people and nations.
Imperial western Rome, (which rose from the sea of humanity (Dan. 7), that great persecutor, controller, and lastly taking the name, but denying the power of Christianity, was cast down. Changing the whole landscape of Europe. | Warnings for us,
Power persecutes. Persecution did not end in 313,AD. when the church received the power of the temporal sword. Persecution will arise again when state power and religion unite. The promises to Smyrna are applicable to all time. |
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Christ was still engaged as mankind's high priest in the Holy Place in the heavenly sanctuary, as our intercessor, even though this truth was being darkened, as human priests tried to take Christ's ministry upon themselves. | Pergamum The only one who has the true sword is Christ, it's a two edged sword, not a political sword. The believers are commended for standing firm for Christ, even though oppression comes from within Christianity. The
Church's leader, the pope, is sitting in the Roman seat of power. The seat of satan.
Promise to overcomers: hidden manna | The third seal: black horse
The rider rides forth carrying a weigh scale. Church leaders are judging people's salvation.
Truth of the gospel is darkened and hard to find. Bread of life is expensive and scarce.
Indeed God's people have need of hidden manna!They need to remember, Christ is mediating for them in the heavenly temple. The true "oil" and "wine" has not suffered damage. | Third trumpet:
"A great star fell". Stars in Revelation 1:21, represent church leaders. The leadership of the church switched masters. Satan the original fallen star enters the church, to guide the human "star" or messenger of the leading, recognized church. The papal power begins to darken truth. The living water of the gospel is turned to wormwood. | Future warnings.
The Bread of life, the living water, all symbolic of Christ and His truth.
Satan moves right into the church to darken and poison. |
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Christ was still the intercessor in the Holy Place even though this truth was almost eclipsed, substituted, and withheld from the people. | Thyatira
The church plunged into darkness so much that God simply tells the believers to hold on to truth as best they can. He will take care of "Jezebel". Those who overcome will inherit the earth and rule with Christ some day.
He will send help ? a morning star. (named Wycliff) | The pale horse
Truth seems dead, the gospel of salvation almost obliterated. It?s an enforced darkness with the power of the sword; for he has power over a fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, and with death . | Fourth trumpet
Historically known as the dark ages. A time when the light of the gospel has almost disappeared, when the day had no sunlight for a third part of it, and the night likewise. The sun of righterousness is Jesus, the light of the world. Europe was in darkness.
But somewhere the sun is still shining. | Future warning
That same power that brought in and reigned in darkness, will rise in apparent glory to deceive and to plunge the whole world in darkness But though it claims to be light for the world, it brings darkness. Jesus is the light of the world, not an earthly imposter. |
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#198449
02/05/25 06:24 PM
02/05/25 06:24 PM
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OP
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What I see in the chart above, is that the first four of the sevens, for churches, seals and trumpets all cover the history of the Christian Church. by the fourth phase, the recognized Christian church was in very bad shape, basically spiritually dead. The gospel buried under a heap of forms and man made laws and rituals. A few faithful ones being told to hold fast to the gospel truth, are still present, living in the mountains. For the "woman" (Rev. 12) who fled to the wilderness represented groups like the Waldenses whose virtues illumined the darkness of their age. So what happens next? What happens next is that God acts powerfully to bring the gospel and truth back to the people. While the fourth seal and fourth trumpet all ended with the church in a dark, poisoned condition, the fourth church was given a promise that God would take care of "Jezebel" - "that woman Jezebel, which calls herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searches the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.The fourth church also received the promise of the Morning Star, the beginning of the reformation. In the fourteenth century arose in England the "morning star of the Reformation." John Wycliffe was the herald of reform, not for England alone, but for all Christendom. The great protest against Rome which it was permitted him to utter was never to be silenced. That protest opened the struggle which was to result in the emancipation of individuals, of churches, and of nations. {GC 80.1} But Satan doesn't like that and reacts with a host of counter measures. So what do we see in the fifth phase of this prophecy? And what lessons can we learn?
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#198450
02/06/25 07:51 PM
02/06/25 07:51 PM
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Part One FIFTH TRUMPET
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Christ in the heavenly Sanctuary | Fifth Trumpet
Text | Symbols
Explained | Fifth Trumpet Historical
Meaning |
Hebrews 9:11-12 But Christ became an high priest of good things to come, in a greater and more perfect tabernacle. Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. Rev. 5:12 Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing. (9) for you were slain, and have redeemed us to God by thy blood.
Col. 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood,[even the forgiveness of sins: | Rev. 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star that had fallen from heaven unto the earth: |
That star had already fallen in the third trumpet.
As noted the fallen star is a church leader. Revelation 1:20; stars are seven angels or leaders of the churches, through whom (in chapter 2 and 3) God sent letters to the church members. But this is a fallen star sitting in the seat of Satan in Rome, having received his power from the dragon. (Rev. 13:4) | We've reached the 13th Century. In the papal chair is Pope Innocent III, pope from 1198 to 1216. He was one of most powerful popes in the entire history of the Church. The Catholic Church had reached its high point of power.
He launched the 4th crusade, supposedly against the Muslims, (instead they turned on Constantinople, conquering and looting it in 1204). He launched terrible, deadly crusades against the Albigenses. |
Jesus, our high Priest ministers in the Holy Place.
Rev. 8:3 (He) stood at the altar, (of incense) having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer [it] with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. |
?and to him was given the key? | Rev. 3:7: he that is true, has the key of David, it is he that opens, and no man shuts; and shuts, and no man opens?
The key belongs to Jesus!
Isaiah. 22:21-22:
the key of the ?house of David? a key of great authority.
In Luke 11:52: the Jewish leaders took the keys to lock people out the kingdom. | The keys were claimed by the papacy.
In Matt. 16:19 is a verse the papacy, firmly claims for themselves.
'I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." |
Revelation1:18
Jesus states, "I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and I have the keys of hell and of death."
John 11:25 I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: |
the key of the bottomless pit | The passage focusses on the Key of the "pit" or the grave and of "hell" or eternal damnation. The key that releases people from damnation which their sins have bound them.
This pit is bottomless, with no limit. (See Psalm 88:6, Pr. 1:12, Pr. 30:16) | Papal dogma claims the authority to determine whose sins are forgiven and will escape "hell". And God Himself must honor their choice.
"The disclosure or confession of sins to a priest is an essential element of this sacrament...It is called the sacrament of forgiveness, since by the priest's sacramental absolution God grants the penitent "pardon and peace." Catechism of the Catholic Church |
Acts 13:38-39
Be it known unto you brethren, that through this man (Jesus) is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
Hebrews 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. | 9:2 And he opened the bottomless pit; | Made the sacrament of confession to a human priest mandatory. | In 1214 Innocent III called the fourth Lateran Council, which passed 70 decrees.
One introduced a significant change by requiring all Catholics to come to personal confession before a priest, on an annual basis. Those who failed to comply lost rights many considered essential to salvation, as well as burial rights. Additionally, Pope Innocent III utilized "tribunals of inquisition" to root out heretics, further enforcing regular confession. He also elevated the Eucharist in terms of transubstantiation |
Rev. 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand. | Revelation 9:2
and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. |
The smoke of incense in the hands of Jesus, brings forgiveness, light and life.
The smoke from strange fire, from a strange altar ? from the pit is darkness, a suffocating smoke, deadly.
(compare with Lev. 10) | In 1215 the papacy made annual, one-on-one confession obligatory for the first time. In the era that followed, confession was a source of spiritual manipulation as well as sexual and mercenary scandal.
Things were dark before, but now they became suffocatingly so. |
Jesus was still interceding at the golden altar in the heavenly Holy Place. | Rev. 9:3
And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth:. |
In prophecy locusts become a symbol of divine intervention in human affairs. Their sudden appearance, vast numbers, and devastating impact are symbolic of God?s judgement. | All through Biblical history we see God "giving" his people who have turned away from Him, into the hands of raiders and enemies, in the hopes they would repent and turn back to Him.
It was no different in the 13th and14th century. |
Jesus was still interceded, the door is open.
Luke 3:5 I tell you, but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, |
and unto them (the locusts) was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. |
God is still in control as the phrase, "power was given them" is an oft repeated phrase. God does give the rebellious over to the consequences of their departure from Him.
Scorpions have a very painful and potential deadly sting.
In Christ, protection is offered against scorpions (Luke 10:19) But here the
scorpions are given power to cause distress. | From the point of its rise to power in 1299, the Ottoman empire, under its leader, chieftain, Osman Ghazi (1299-1324), rapidly expanded, greatly harassing European powers.
One point often ignored. Had not the fourth crusade of Pope Innocence III (and other crusades who supposedly went to fight the Muslims) harassed and even conquered and pillaged Constantinople in 1204; had the Christian church, west and east worked together instead of being rather bitter rivals, history could have been quite different. But as it was the eastern Roman Empire was greatly weakened, and didn't have the strength to stop the invaders.
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To be continued:
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#198458
02/09/25 06:49 AM
02/09/25 06:49 AM
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OP
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While the 13th century saw the Papacy rise to it's highest point in history, it also saw a lot of history that would play largely into the formation of the last three phases of earth's history. 1. The Christian church had split. The great schism had taken place in 1054, tensions had been building for centuries, with the Roman pope demanding authority and supremacy over all churches, but the eastern Orthodox church was resisting his claims. The schism receives it's date 1054, from the time both the eastern patriarch and western pope excommunicated each other. This led to the end of the alliance between the Emperor and the Papacy, and caused later Popes to tend to ally with the enemies against the Empire, in hopes of forcing them back under the supremacy of the Pope.
"Missionaries" were being sent into the Northern Baltic Regions from both the west and the east. It was considered critical that these people in these regions converted to the right type of Christianity. Both Orthodox and Roman Christians, viewed these lands as strategically critical to the territorial and religious ambitions for their own brand of Christianity.
We really don't hear that much about the "northern crusades" but they were pretty on-going all through the 13th century. The aim was to subject those lands that were still largely pagans, and convert the people to the right brand of "Christianity".
The Livonian Crusades began in 1198, the year that Innocent III became pope. (They ended in 1290) Pope Innocent III seemed to delight in "holy war" provided crusading indulgences, promulgated crusades against Islam in the east and in Iberia, against the pagans of the north, the heretics of Southern France, and the political enemies of the papacy, as well as launching the fourth crusade supposedly against Islam. The fourth crusade against Islam ended up conquering and pillaging Constantinople, in 1204. The Byzantine world was left in utter confusion. The Crusaders and Venetians divided the land among themselves and put a figure head Latin emperor on the throne in Constantinople. What resulted was some 55 years of regional political leaders in the fragmented empire, fighting to gain control of each other's territories, until finally Michael VIII of Nicaea took over the better part of the land that had been Byzantine before the Fourth Crusade shattered the empire, and began rebuilding the empire in 1261.
2. A different "horde of locusts" was sweeping the known world during the 13th century. The Mongols swept across China, the Middle East, southern Russia, Persia, the Baltics, clear in the Ukraine and the Danube River. They established one of the largest empires in the world! It lasted about 100 years. They didn't care what religion people held as long as they paid their taxes and remained loyal. Under their conquest millions lost their lives. For the fragmented regions of the former Byzantine empire, the Mongols were temporally a blessing as they were busy decimating their chief enemy, the Sultanate. The Mongols desolation of Baghdad in 1258 brought a major change to the world picture. It was a catastrophic and emphatic end to the Islamic Golden Age. But it opened up the "Silk Road" for Europe to China, which also opened up to the western eyes a whole different "world" of living.
3. But most serious to the gospel were the papal religious mandates that spoke against God. Most of these departures from truth were already practiced in the centuries prior, (the first trumpets were calling them to repentance) but when, instead of repenting, they tightened them and passed decrees that everyone must practice the counterfeit truths, it marked time for a change.
(4th Lateran Council in 1215 also called 12th ecumenical council) a. A canon that everyone must confess to a human priest at least once every year or be denied certain sacramental privileges. (Enforcing, this practice which had crept into the church earlier) b, Transubstantiation, Eucharist -- through the dark ages, they were leaning towards the concept of the literal sacrifice of Christ in the eucharist, but the old view of the memorial of Christ's sacrifice was still very prevalent as the controversies of the 9th and 11th centuries testify. But the Roman Catholic position on the Eucharist was first given dogmatic expression at the 4th Lateran Council in 1215 A.D. when the Church formally set forth the teaching of transubstantiation as the official teaching of the Church. c. Several canons that Jews must wear distinct clothes to identify them and keep them separate from "Christians". They could not marry a Christian, nor could they hold public office. A converted Jew must not practice their former Jewish religion. d. Serious persecution of "heretics". e. Canons 4-5 exhorted the Greek Orthodox to unite with Rome, and reiterated papal primacy
5, Why were the Jews treated so badly? Didn't the Christians realize Christ died for them as well as for Gentiles? Paul wrote plainly that Christ had come to make of the two, one body of believers in him. We know one of the big reasons why Sunday worship replaced worship on the 7th-day Sabbath was due to a great desire to be recognized as distinct from the Jews. The Sabbath is a distinguishing sign. In fact many Catholic canons speak of those keeping the 7th day as Judaizes and have pronounce canons against Judaizing (keeping the 7th day holy).
CHANGE WAS ON THE HORIZON! 1299 Rise of the Ottomans
1328-1384 John Wycliff the morning star of the reformation.
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#198460
02/09/25 07:43 PM
02/09/25 07:43 PM
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I am reading what you are posting here with great interest. 
In His Love, Mercy & Grace, Daryl John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#198461
02/10/25 10:54 PM
02/10/25 10:54 PM
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OP
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Another chance? Was God giving the Byzantine's another chance? The Byzantine Empire had been ravished by the fourth crusade that had come from the west. In 1204 a Latin emperor sat on the throne in Constantinople, the Byzantine lands fragmented and divided to various war lords. The Byzantine Empire was as good as gone.
Could they have another chance? And if it were granted, would they turn with their hearts to God. The east had always been a little slower to accept the changes brought in by the Roman church. For instance, the Sabbath. Two fifth-century historians, Socrates Scholasticus and Sozomenus, mention weekly communion on both Sabbath and Sunday was taking place in Christendom, everywhere except at Rome and Alexandria. Which means Saturday Sabbath was still partially recognized several hundred years after Christ in the eastern church. Then Rome instituted a Saturday fast, which was vigorously opposed by the eastern church. The eastern church resisted the papal change of the dates for observing Christ's death and resurrection. They observed it on the Jewish Passover, not on the "Easter" weekend. However, that changed in 325 AD at the Nicean council. The eastern church for many years opposed icon images in worship and in churches. It was a big controversy between the eastern and western church. But gradually the eastern church followed the Roman church on those matters till they too filled their churches with icon images.
So, while the east in many ways followed the example of the west (uniting church and state for one thing) and eventually accepting most of her ways, they still had more traces of the influence from bishops from Judean/Christian churches in their history -- influences from churches whose beginnings pointed back to Paul.
But now, in the 13th century the end was near. Did the terrible experience resulting from the crusaders send them back to God?
It seems God was reaching out to them. He held back the Mongols, who didn't take advantage of their disorganized and very weak state (1204-1261) to conquer them. It seems God allowed the Mongols to decimate the Islamic cities, like their key city, Bagdad, breaking their power, which further reduced the risks of attack from those powerful Islamic neighbors. Then Michael VIII was able to gain control of various regions which had been part of the Byzantine Empire which resulted in the restoration of Byzantine control of Constantinople and the reestablishment of the Byzantine Empire as a major power in the region.
They were given a second chance!!!! From 1261 to 1449 (when they fell to the Ottomans), almost 200 years, what would have happened if they, as a people would have come before God in their beautiful temple, in confession and repentance, desiring to live for HIM?
Would the fifth trumpet be different?
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#198462
02/11/25 03:22 AM
02/11/25 03:22 AM
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OP
Global Moderator Supporting Member 2024
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FIFTH TRUMPET CONTINUED
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Christ in the heavenly Sanctuary | Fifth Trumpet |
Text Symbols
Explained | Fifth Trumpet
Meaning | Rev. 1:2-3
(Jesus) stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer [it] with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
8:4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand. | Rev. 9:2 he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. The smoke of incense in the hands of Jesus, brings forgiveness, light and life. |
But it doesn't look like prayers of trust, confession and repentance are ascending from the restored empire. No, life saving smoke of prayers, seeking God's leading, protection and salvation ascending. Only the dark suffocating smoke from false, strange fire, from a strange altar ? from the pit of darkness coming up from the grand temple Hagia Sophia, that was returned to Greek Orthodox worship.
(Today, that temple is a Mosque)
Nor has anything changed in the west. Their perspective of the east as a rival, seems to blind them to the fact the east is a barrier against the locusts tormenting them. | While not quite as ridged as the western Catholic church, the eastern church still looked to the priest as the spiritual doctor, and the necessary vehicle through which to obtain release from the guilt of sin. He draws on the knowledge of the Orthodox Church and the Holy Fathers to provide a person with a "treatment" for their sins, so they can walk away from Confession free from guilt, absolved of the evils they have done. |
Jesus is still interceding at the golden altar in the heavenly Holy Place. | Rev. 9:3
And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth and unto them (the locusts) was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. | In prophecy locusts become a symbol of divine intervention in human affairs.
Because His people had turned away from Him, "God gave their enemies (a certain amount) of power over them. (1 Sam. 12:9)
God is still in control. God never gave the enemies complete control over His wayward people.
Scorpions have a very painful and potential deadly sting.
In Christ protection is offered against scorpions (Luke 10:19) All through the 150 years those locusts and scorpions were held back from destroying the empire | From the point of its rise to power in 1299, the Ottoman empire rapidly expanded, greatly harassing European powers. But remember, Christ was still interceding, yet they didn't repent and turn to Him. So we move on into the fifth trumpet and see the destruction advancing. |
"Turn from evil and do good; then you will dwell in the land forever." Psalm 37:27 "Repent, then, and turn to God, so that he will forgive your sins." Acts 3:19 | Rev. 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; | Locusts usually devour grass, and green things. That's the nature of locusts.
These "locusts" aren't acting naturally. |
In these earlier years, the Ottoman Turks, though ambitious to conquer, and gain ever greater territory, were not plunders like some conquering armies. Though warlike, they had limitations.
The Byzantine cup was not yet full, God was still calling to His people, (both east and west) they could still turn. |
At this time, Jesus was still in the holy Place, interceding for His people. The focus turns to the Sabbath.
Ez. 20:19-20 I am the LORD your God; ... hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I [am] the LORD your God.
He is longing for people to repent and receive His grace and transforming power.
Rev. 14 Fear God, and give glory to him...worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
Gen 2.2-3 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it:
Ex. 20:8,11 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. For [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them [is], and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
| Rev. 9:4 they should not hurt .... but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. | The seal of God signifies the authenticity of believers.
The seal is not just something unique at the end of the age, the Holy Spirit works to develop it in us now.
Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby you are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Sabbath is the sign of the seal. Ez. 20:12,20.
God's hallowed Sabbath was strongly opposed by the RC church.
Lateran IV Council 1215 stated : A converted Jew must not practice their former Jewish religion. That included, they must not keep the 7th day holy.
Another canon from that council urges strict measures against heretics. Which resulted in the terrible crusade against Albigensians, from 1209-1229.
Even years later 1241-1244 the Dominican inquisitor in northern Italy,
Moneta, passionately defended himself against criticism from Waldensians and Cathars (Albigensian) that Catholics were transgressors of the Sabbath commandment. In the chapter De Sabbato, et De Die Dominico |
The Roman church had declared open war against all who followed their conscience in opposition to church mandates. There was a special vengeance manifested against Sabbath Keepers. A Lateran 1215 canon mandating converted Jews could not practice Jewish beliefs. (The 7th day Sabbath)
And also the terrible, blood thirsty crusade to exterminate Albigensian (who kept the Sabbath) also killing their protectors.
The Ottoman early campaigns were not to direct their "torment" on the Sabbath keepers, they were sent to "torment" those who refused the seal of God and were trying to stop others from keeping the Sabbath!
The experience of Jews in the Ottoman Empire is particularly significant because the region "provided a principal place of refuge for Jews driven out of Western Europe by massacres and persecution.
So too, other persecuted ones found refuge in the Ottoman Empire, where they were given more freedom to live their religion than back under papal controlled lands. They were still a minority group, with restrictions, but they were free to worship on the day God blessed. |
Jesus still interceding before the altar of incense in heaven. | Rev. 9:5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months | "it was given" ? The tormentors were allowed to go so far, no further. That phrase, "it was given" reminds us that God is still in control.
Five months.
30X5 =150 day/years of torment. 150 more years as the Ottomans took more and more of their lands, were given to repent before final judgment is executed. 1299 to 1449. At the end of those years the Byzantine empire would loose it's power. Constantinople would fall into the hands of the Ottoman Turks in 1449, and be destroyed in 1453. The barrier that stood in the way of the "locusts" tormenting the west, would be broken down. The beautiful temple Hagia Sophia would become a mosque. |
But they had those 150 years, to call upon God and change their ways, and possibly keep their homeland. God's ways don't change. Is it similar to Noah? His generation was given 120 years, in which Noah was to torment people with his doom's day talk, 120 years in which God's Spirit would continue to strive with men, before judgment fell. Does it have significance today? It's been 180 years since the third angel's message began, we don't know how much longer we have. Are all our sins confessed and are we secure in the cleft of the rock which is Jesus and His blood and righteousness? |
John 16:33
"I have said these things to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world." |
Rev. 9:6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them. |
To become a slave was a fate more to be feared than death. In an agony of terror children were taken from their parents to become slaves. | The Ottoman's made slavery a well organized science! No, authentic, born Muslim could be a slave. But conquered, or subjected people, or people taken in raids, were fair game to become slaves. This became the lot of many Christians.
It was a tax law, that Christians had to give some of their children as slaves to the Ottoman regime. Officials would come to their communities to collect usually 8- 10 year old children to be taken from their parents, every year. These were then "converted" to Islam and trained as soldiers with strict obedience to their masters. Some were trained for other duties. Girls were usually placed in harems or became concubines and/or house servants. Interestingly, Jews tended to be exempt from this law. |
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#198463
02/12/25 12:41 PM
02/12/25 12:41 PM
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When I read this, I thought about the interpretation of the prophecy of Revelation 9:15 pertaining to the demise of the Ottoman Empire on August 11, 1840.
Revelation 9:15 ESV says, "So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour, the day, the month, and the year, were released to kill a third of mankind."
This, however, happened under the sounding of the Sixth Trumpet, therefore, I am anxiously waiting for your next post regarding the sounding of the Sixth Trumpet.
In His Love, Mercy & Grace, Daryl John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#198464
02/12/25 03:02 PM
02/12/25 03:02 PM
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OP
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At this point, I'm still studying the fifth trumpet. The 5 months. (5 times 30 days = 150 days, which are 150 literal years).
The 6th trumpet, especially the London Convention/Treaty of 1840 (which really happened) has been hotly debated on this forum previously and will take more than a quick post to explore.
The 150 years of the 5th trumpet were given to the Byzantine Empire. That 150 year time period marks their final years. The 150 years span time from 1299-1449. But here we see a pattern that runs through all the prophetic Biblical accounts, and which is important to remember. The "fall" of a kingdom is reckoned, NOT from some last wipe out battle (Constantinople was conquered by the Turks in 1453, not 1449) but from the point when another nation gained power over them. Thus in 1449 Turkish power was acknowledged as the "winner" when the Byzantine emperor, Constantine XIII (Deacozes) had to seek Turkish permission to ascend the throne, he virtually said, "I cannot reign unless you permit." Those 150 years are the foundation for the 391 years of the 6th trumpet. That first period, 150 years, being fulfilled before Deacozes ascended the throne by permission of the Turks, and that the 391 years, remaining for the Ottomans, commenced at the close of the first period, that takes us to August, 1840, when the Ottoman power had to submit to a the stronger powers of Europe.
The fifth trumpet takes the reader to the downfall of the powerful Christian empire centered in Constantinople. The fifth trumpet also includes the rise of the Ottoman empire in 1299, but not it's end. Their end was still 391 years in the future beyond the end of the 150 years.
In some ways, what happens with the Byzantine Empire and the Ottomans, follow the pattern of history. God's professed people leave the truth. God allows an aggressive enemy to torment them. If they repent, God delivers them, BUT if they refuse and don't repent, God can't deliver them. But he still does not abandon them entirely. And eventually God also deals with power that ruthlessly tormented them.
This is one trumpet that really doesn't receive a lot of attention, yet it is dealing with the Christian (Gentile) world that received the greatest revelation of truth preached by the apostles. This is the region where all seven churches, which literally received the seven letters of Revelation 2 and 3, were located. They merged with the state and ended up under the control of the eastern Roman Emperor (who often controlled church affairs). They had their own patriarch to govern their religious lives. Though more resistant to encroaching errors, they never-the-less followed most of the errors and accepted much of Christianized paganism of the west. In 1453 their territory and city was taken over by the Ottoman's, and the surviving Greek Orthodox Christians were scattered mainly into Russia and the Baltic regions of Europe. They took the message into regions not yet reached with Christianity. These Greek Orthodox Christians are still a strong force in the world today, (though they suffered a lot of persecution over the centuries, by the western church and especially from communism) . Today we see Russia elevating them to the state religion, the same pit they fell into back in the 4th century, and we also see the pope reaching out to clasp hands with the Patriarch attempting to bridge the 1000 year schism.
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#198470
02/13/25 06:46 PM
02/13/25 06:46 PM
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The Vials of God's Wrath Will Be Poured Out
Solemn events before us are yet to transpire. Trumpet after trumpet is to be sounded; vial after vial poured out one after another upon the inhabitants of the earth.--3SM 426 (1890). {LDE 238.1}
The battle of Armageddon will be fought. And that day must find none of us sleeping. Wide awake we must be, as wise virgins having oil in our vessels with our lamps. The power of the Holy Ghost must be upon us and the Captain of the Lord's host will stand at the head of the angels of heaven to direct the battle. Solemn events before us are yet to transpire. Trumpet after trumpet is to be sounded; vial after vial poured out one after another upon the inhabitants of the earth. Scenes of stupendous interest are right upon us and these things will be sure indications of the presence of Him who has directed in every aggressive movement, who has accompanied the march of His cause through all the ages, and who has graciously pledged Himself to be with His people in all their conflicts to the end of the world. He will vindicate His truth. He will cause it to triumph. He is ready to supply His faithful ones with motives and power of purpose, inspiring them with hope and courage and valor in increased activity as the time is at hand. {3SM 426.1}
The world is soon to be left by the angel of mercy and the seven last plagues are to be poured out. . . . The bolts of God's wrath are soon to fall, and when He shall begin to punish the transgressors there will be no period of respite until the end.--TM 182 (1894). {LDE 238.2}
The power of the Holy Ghost must be upon us, and the Captain of the Lord's host will stand at the head of the angels of heaven to direct the battle. Solemn events before us are yet to transpire. Trumpet after trumpet is to be sounded, vial after vial poured out one after another upon the inhabitants of the earth. Scenes of stupendous interest are right upon us. {Mar 257.5}
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#198472
02/14/25 02:45 AM
02/14/25 02:45 AM
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OP
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Yes, the vials will be poured out on the last generation of unrepentant sinners, just as the trumpets show other generations who refused to repent and come to the Life Giver, ended up suffering, often quite severely, the results of their choices. The quote that trumpets will be sounding, does not prove the seven trumpets are to be interpreted in futuristic method. They have a message from the past that is very relevant in the future. Those who forget the past won't recognize the same dangers when it confronts them in the future. The situations in the historic trumpets began with people thinking it was a good thing. But ..... it wasn't good at all. In the end those same deceptions that pulled people into dangerous paths, will also appear as something good, thus deceiving many. FIRST TRUMPET. Israel thought they were God's special people. BUT they rejected their Messiah, depending on their rituals instead of depending upon God and Christ. The result was that great suffering and trouble came upon them. And the hail and fire of destruction that fell, destroyed their city and temple. SECOND TRUMPET. The Roman Empire falls into the sea. When Constantine converted, people thought it was wonderful, the Emperor was now on their side! People rejoiced, even today it is spoken of as having been a good thing, BUT ..... it was not good. Rome (Dan. 7:3) rose from the sea of humanity, became a "great mountain" and then crashed in burning flames back into the sea of humanity, Why?-- because it was built on human strength and ambition, not on the saving, transforming power of the gospel. Christianity is to depend on God, not on human mountains (Political powers). THIRD AND FOURTH TRUMPET. The growth into power and outward splendor of the Christian Church, seemed impressive! BUT..... they reinstituted the Jewish priesthood, with bloodless daily sacrifices (mass) and gathered inspiration from paganism, simply giving paganism a Christian cloak. The streams of living water were poisoned, made bitter even unto death. Spiritually torment and death and darkness resulted. 5. FIFTH TRUMPET The Eastern Empire is under attack, They are Christians and they could have carried on the apostolic legacy, but they followed the same road down into human based religion as the west, they did not repent and basically suffered the same fate as the Jews 1000 years earlier. The trumpets are not JUST about the last generation. People were to learn valuable lessons from these studies of generations for whom trumpets blew, people who never lived in the last generation of earth. Each succeeding generation didn't seem to learn from the ones before and so they ended up reaping the consequences. They could have repented and aligned themselves with Christ, but instead of repenting and learning, things just got worse. I Is it applicable for us now? Yes, of course, because what happened in the last 2000 years was satan diligently building and strengthening his agencies and deceptive methods. We need to know what they are, for he will bring them all out in their most deceptive forms for the final battle. "Every form of evil is to spring into intense activity. Evil angels unite their powers with evil men, and as they have been in constant conflict and attained an experience in the best modes of deception and battle, and have been strengthening for centuries, they will not yield the last great final contest without a desperate struggle." {Mar 257.4} I would say all those trumpets are sounding loudly! Are their historic messages relevant today? Let's look at them again and see if their messages are still applicable today. --The first trumpet warning. Does the Christian world remember that Jesus said, Jerusalem and the temple are "desolate" (Matt.23:38) Yet many will fall for all this focus on rebuilding the temple in Jerusalem. Reestablishing the pre-cross rituals. Expecting miraculous things to happen there? The false prophet is prophesying many things focused on Jerusalem. -- The second trumpet warning, Does the Christian world listen or do they fall in the same trap as the 4th century Christians, turning to a human "mountain" a world national power, to be their master and protector? That modern mountain, too, will crash into the sea of humanity, with great turbulence. -- The third and fourth warning. A spiritual world leader, a deception that the Bible strongly warns us about, thus most futuristic methods were designed to hide this warning and remove it from Bible prophecy. It warns of a powerful church that has adopted and Christianized paganism, revived old rituals of works, thus, while presenting itself as the utmost Christian influence, has been poisoning the waters of life, bringing spiritual agony, darkness and death. What is happening today? This same religious power presents itself as a great pious, world saving and influencing power. Those trumpets need to continue to sound -- for their job was to expose a spiritual poison that destroys more than the body, it aims for our souls as well. -- The fifth warning. Also against Christianity, (the Byzantine Church) but this Christianity had separated itself from the church against which trumpets 3 and 4 sounded. It had more connections with the apostolic church and scriptures. But it, too, aligned itself with state power, and adopted most of the same sacramental methods and other rituals of the Roman church. The greater the access to truth, the greater the sin of rejecting truth. Do we have the same situation today? Is it enough simply to not be members of the Roman church? So many of us still value the historic approach, upon which our belief system was built. Six historicist trumpets tell us of the past, while the seventh trumpet takes us from 1844 clear to the end of the world. However, this does NOT mean these trumpets have drifted off the radar. NO! They have a story to tell that will prepare us for the deceptions still to come! In the end ALL the trumpets will be blowing, All the evils they warned about in the past, will be springing up in full maturity of development in the last battle. We have much evidence that EGW believed and confirms the historicist approach. It's as we study the revelations of Satan's deceptions and methods being developed in the past (which will all manifest themselves in the future) that we can know what to look out for in the future.
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#198474
02/15/25 12:25 AM
02/15/25 12:25 AM
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OP
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Back to the fifth trumpet. There's a lot of information in the fifth trumpet. The historical focus of this trumpet is on the Byzantine Empire and the Greek Orthodox Church which had it's head quarters in Constantinople. Byzantine Constantinople was home to a strong Christian religion, which literally could date its Christianity back to the apostles. Constantinople's status as the capital of a the Byzantine empire, dates back to Constantine. 1052 AD The big schism when eastern church separated from the Roman Catholic Church 1204 AD the fourth crusade from Europe which ended up conquering and ransacking Constantinople bringing great confusion to the Byzantine Empire. 1261 AD Michael VIII of Nicaea was able to restore the shattered empire back into Byzantine hands. and start rebuilding some of its power. Providence was giving them a "second chance". 1299 AD Osman I, founded the House of Osman, (Ottoman) and began building what was to become the mighty Ottoman Empire. The Turks now had a "king" over them and the 150 years began. 1449 AD The last Byzantine Emperor asked the Turks to grant him permission to reign. Virtually signing over the authority of the Empire to the Turks. Thus marking the end of the 150 years the Byzantine Empire had been given to return to Christ. 1454 AD The Ottoman's conquered Constantinople, made the city their capital and the surviving Orthodox Christians fled north to Russia or to the Baltic lands. THE LOCUSTS in the Fifth Trumpet John SEES these locusts who destroy the Byzantine Empire, and he describes them by saying -- they looked LIKE several different things. unto them (the locusts) was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. | These locusts are not scorpions, but they are given power similar to the power of scorpions. From where did they receive this power? Of Israel it is stated: ?He led them through the "great and terrible wilderness, wherein were fiery serpents, and scorpions, and drought" (Deuteronomy 8:15) It was only when they grumbled and complained against God, that God removed His protection and those scorpions bit with deadly results. The only salvation against a scorpion bite, is looking to Christ and his sacrifice. (See John 3:14-15) ?As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness even so much the Son of Man be lifted up that whoever believe in Him should not perish but have eternal life.? Scorpions represent satan?s power. But God?s power is far greater. | Terrible tails, tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails | What is the meaning of having power in their TAIL? A tail is something that follows. It?s a back part. It's not the first thing that presents itself. In Revelation 12:4, the dragon?s tail sweeps 1/3 of the stars into his ranks.
Isaiah links the tail, to falsehood or deception. The head is the elder and honorable man, And the prophet who teaches falsehood is the tail. Isaiah 9:15 Whether one has "power" in their head (above) or tail (beneath), seems to have something to do with keeping God's commandments.
The Lord will make you the head and not the tail, and you will be above, and you will not be underneath, if you listen to the commandments of the Lord your God Duet. 28:13 | like unto horses prepared for battle
The sound of chariots of many horses running to battle | Obviously depicting a lot of conflict and war. Horses prepared for battle Chariots running to battle. All symbolic (as well as literal) of battle, whether spiritual or physical. | had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; | A breastplate protects the heart and lungs. God?s people wear the breastplate of righteousness (Christ?s righteousness) Ep, 6:14.
But these Iron breastplates sound like war. A strong, resilient, metal. This gives this swarm of locusts an impenetrable and strong appearance. They mean business. | and on their heads as it were crowns (victory crowns) like gold, | They wore something that looked like victory crowns on their heads. It looked like those crowns were made of gold. But looks can be deceiving.
True victory crowns are crowns of salvation, Ep. 6:17 which we can claim by faith. They are made of pure gold tried in fire. | They had human faces | Human faces signify intelligence, humanity, a sense of honesty. This is where it gets interesting -- they have human faces that one can relate to, dialogue with, but watch out! The TAIL, "the prophet that teaches falsehood is the tail" Is.9:15. Their power was in deceit? Presenting a "good human face" but having a stinging, terrible tail that causes agony and pain? | | Hair like women | Hair length often had cultural implication.
| | Teeth like a lion | Preying instead of praying. |
Are the locusts the Turkish armies, or are the locusts the evil powers influencing the Turkish armies in their program of conquest and subjection? Both the literal and the supernatural seem intertwined. And were those same evil powers of deception working on the minds and hearts of the Christians inside that city. It was a "last call" for Byzantine Christians before their cities was given to the conquering Ottomans. Judgment time was bearing down on them. As the Ottoman's came closer and closer to the final conquest, the Christians could have been in repentance and sublication before the Lord. He saved Ninevah, He could have saved them! The locusts had no power to hurt those who had the seal of God. God's all-powerful, distinguishing grace will keep his faithful people from total and final apostacy. It wasn't just the human armies attacking them. God could have easily stopped them. Evil forces were at work, working through human armies, to cause distress, but they were also working on people's hearts to led them away from Christ and His protecting, loving care. We also see the implications that the human war dress isn't what we need, we need the armor outlined in Ephesians 6:13-18. The very fact these trumpets run parallel with Christ's heavenly ministry (Rev. 8:2-5), indicates that God was working mightily to reach these Orthodox Christians in those 150 years prior to the fall of their Capital city. The situation back then isn't that different from today. We are heading for the last judgment to fall as well.
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#198497
02/26/25 03:26 PM
02/26/25 03:26 PM
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OP
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The 1st trumpet -- early Christianity. The gospel went first to the Jewish nation. It was the nucleus, the headquarters, building on the old testament promises which all pointed to the Messiah. Christianity sprung up as thousands in that nation believed, and it was believers from that nation that took the message to the world. But the Jewish nation itself refused to come to Jesus and the hope and life He offered. The first trumpet sets in record the consequences of that choice.
The 2nd trumpet -- Christianity merges with Rome. 313 AD, The Roman Emperors begin to decree church policies and play a strong hand in it's beliefs, making Christianity a state religion. Persecutions moved from being against the church, to being within the church. Western Rome "the great mountain" that rose from the "sea" of mankind, in which Christianity had put their trust, like a great burning mountain plunges back into the "sea" of humanity, causing great confusion and destruction.
3rd and 4th trumpet -- papacy grows to great power (about 500 - 1300) Starts to poison the waters of life, eclipsing the gospel, adding bitterness with it's enforcement of its dogmas, , ending in "dark ages".
5th trumpet -- the eastern church 1300 -1449 Though they separated (great schism) from the papal led church, they clung to much of its teachings, idols, and intolerance. Thus they did not have the protection against the armies around them, nor against armies from Rome, nor against the 150 years of swarming Turkish armies . They, like Jerusalem, had their capital city destroyed, and were scattered.
6th trumpet --The fall (wounding) of the papal power, and ending Turkish power -- 1449 - 1840.
7th trumpet -- finishing the mystery. 1840's to the final victory.
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#198505
02/27/25 11:50 AM
02/27/25 11:50 AM
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This obviously means that the 7th Trumpet has also already sounded and we are in the time of the 7th Trumpet.
Has the "finishing of the mystery" become known to us yet?
If so, then what is "the mystery" that has become known?
In His Love, Mercy & Grace, Daryl John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: Daryl]
#198509
02/27/25 05:45 PM
02/27/25 05:45 PM
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OP
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This obviously means that the 7th Trumpet has also already sounded and we are in the time of the 7th Trumpet.
Has the "finishing of the mystery" become known to us yet?
If so, then what is "the mystery" that has become known? The seventh trumpet began to sound in 1844. Yes we are living in the time of the 7th trumpet -- it is still sounding. Revelation 11:19 -- we know when this announcement was first made . The temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in His temple the ark of His testament." Revelation 11:19. The ark of God's testament is in the holy of holies, the second apartment of the sanctuary. In the ministration of the earthly tabernacle, which served "unto the example and shadow of heavenly things," this apartment was opened only upon the great Day of Atonement for the cleansing of the sanctuary. Therefore the announcement that the temple of God was opened in heaven and the ark of His testament was seen points to the opening of the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary in 1844 as Christ entered there to perform the closing work of the atonement. Great Controversy page 434 The mystery is " the mystery of salvation" Instead of the prophecy of Daniel 8:14 referring to the purifying of the earth, it was now plain that it pointed to the closing work of our High Priest in heaven, the finishing of the atonement, and the preparing of the people to abide the day of His coming. {CET 56.3} {1T 58} The mystery of God, or work of salvation for sinful men, is being finished in the days of the voice of the seventh angel. (Rev. 10:7) It's during this time when the three angels' messages are proclaimed throughout the earth. Notice, though people thought it meant Christ appearing right then, they were told they needed to prophesy again. (10:11) The third angel warns of terrible things to come upon those who worship the beast. The call is to worship the Creator (Rev. 14:7}, keep His commandments {14:12}, have the faith of Jesus (14:12) and follow Him where ever He leads (14:4). This is all part of the 7th trumpet! The seventh trumpet covers a period of time which is occupied in this finishing of the mystery of God. First the issues must be proclaimed, the truth brought forth. The three angels message must be given to everyone who will listen, so they may escape the vials of the wrath of God which are predicted in the third angel's message (14:9-11) ALSO in this period of the 7th trumpet, the Saviour completes his work in the Most Holy Place in the Sanctuary in heaven. "The time has come for judging the dead" (Rev. 11:18) and placing every name of each person clothed in His robe of righteousness, permanently into the book of LIFE. (Rev. 3:5) When this is accomplished, the vials of the wrath of God will poured out and Jesus will come.
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#198510
02/27/25 06:12 PM
02/27/25 06:12 PM
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Revelation 10:7 KJV says, "But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."
My understanding was that "the mystery of God" was the mystery of time.
Have you ever thought about it that way?
In His Love, Mercy & Grace, Daryl John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#198511
02/28/25 02:11 AM
02/28/25 02:11 AM
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OP
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In Rev. 10 it is speaking of time in the verse just before. -- The angel swore by Him who lives forever and ever, the Creator of all things, that there should be time (delay) no longer, but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery of God would be finished.
It does answer some of the "how long" questions, assuring us we are very near the end. But I tend to think it goes deeper than that.
Let's look in scripture and see what the Bible refers to as the Mystery of God. And there it seems rather clear that the "Mystery of God" is the mystery of salvation, of God's awesome plan to redeem mankind.
Col. 2:2 the riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgment of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;
Mark 4:4 :11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God:
Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, (speaking of grafting Gentile branches into the olive tree, as well as grafting believing Jews back in, too)
Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to establish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, 1 Cor. 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
1 Cor. 15:51-57 The mystery of the resurrection.. corruptible changing into incorruption.. death swallowed up in victory....God, which gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ
Eph. 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will,...that in the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:
Eph. 3:9,11 And to make all see the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world has been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:...According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Eph. 6:19 make known the mystery of the gospel,
Col. 1:26 The mystery which has been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: 1:27 God would make known the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
1 Tim. 3:16 great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#198512
02/28/25 04:14 PM
02/28/25 04:14 PM
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There is definitely much about the "mystery of God" in the Scriptures, however, what does it mean in Revelation 10:17 where it says that "the mystery of God should be finished"?
In His Love, Mercy & Grace, Daryl John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#198516
02/28/25 11:50 PM
02/28/25 11:50 PM
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OP
Global Moderator Supporting Member 2024
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Don't have any other answer - it just seems plain to me from Bible and Spirit if Prophecy that starting in 1844 Christ would begin and bring to conclusion all the "finishing" work relating to salvation. The day of atonement -- which includes the investigative judgement, the last warning message of the three angels, the plagues -- and the second coming. The mystery of God WOULD (NKJ) be finished during the seventh trumpet.
The grand mystery isn't "many" different things, it is one awesome plan to redeem the fallen race and end sin forever. And yes, we are in the "finishing" time.
The phrase written in the KJV "should be finished" is actually just one Greek word in the original,
G5055 "teleo;" to finish, accomplish, to perform the last acts which completes a process, to accomplish bringing to an end, fulfil, to carry out what was required for completion.
Actually the word "should" is not in the Greek. During the 7th trumpet the plan of salvation for the human race WILL be finished, the last preparatory work done, all the promises will be fulfilled as laid out in the everlasting covenant.
The seventh trumpet brings the world to the "finishing" time. Just like a carpenter builds a beautiful cabinet but it still needs the last work -- the finishing work -- careful sanding, smoothing, varnishing, --
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#198517
03/01/25 04:50 PM
03/01/25 04:50 PM
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Let's go back a couple of verses and then add verse 7 to verses 5 and 6.
Revelation 10:5-6 KJV says, "And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, 6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:"
What is this "there should be time no longer" referring to?
In His Love, Mercy & Grace, Daryl John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#198523
03/03/25 03:14 AM
03/03/25 03:14 AM
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OP
Global Moderator Supporting Member 2024
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We actually have several threads dealing with timelines. Within the understanding of the historicist interpretations -- Time lines, prophetic time periods, ended in 1844. No more time lines after 1844. . 1844 is when the seventh trumpet began. And the finishing work of the atonement began. The seventh trumpet has no time lines, we are in the "time of the end" watch and pray for you know not when the Lord will come.
That is, the people will not have another message upon definite time. After this period of time, reaching from 1842 to 1844, there can be no definite tracing of the prophetic time. The longest reckoning reaches to the autumn of 1844. {CTr 344.5} " While there is still time, Probation is still open, our clocks are still ticking, things have not yet ended, Christ is still interceding in the heavenly sanctuary, yet there is no more reckoning of time. We don't know when the mystery of God will be finished, all we know it WILL be finished very soon and Jesus will come. And this is the point of great hope and importance -- it hasn't finished yet, but it will very soon.
But in our studies on this thread we haven't yet covered the sixth trumpet.
The sixth trumpet still runs within the timelines, beginning around 1499. And it ends shortly before the seventh trumpet gives it's "time of the dead that they should be judged" and the discovery that God's law is still located in God's sanctuary in heaven, and is still God's law, complete with the fourth commandment, message.
Under the sixth trumpet, the world changes -- There are the turkish armies harrassing the European, papal world (keeping the papacy busy) We have the renaissance changing the way people think We have the reformation There's the French Revolution There's the toppling of monarchies There's a whole revolutionary atmosphere The papacy receives a deadly wound, taking away it's ability to force nations to accept it's dogmas. on the one hand, there is explosion of searching for truth, but, with fury a counter power from beneath has swept the world away from truth
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#198525
03/03/25 11:53 AM
03/03/25 11:53 AM
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Regarding "there should be time no longer" in Revelation 10:6 EGW wrote:
EGW wrote, "This time, which the Angel declares with a solemn oath, is not the end of this world's history, neither of probationary time, but of prophetic time, which would precede the advent of our Lord. That is, the people will not have another message upon definite time. After this period of time, reaching from 1842 to 1844, there can be no definite tracing of the prophetic time. The longest reckoning reaches to the autumn of 1844." {CTr 344.5}
In other words, the words "there should be time no longer" in Revelation 10:6 is referring to the fact that there should be prophetic time no longer since "the autumn of 1844", or more precisely, since October 22, 1844.
In His Love, Mercy & Grace, Daryl John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#198529
03/03/25 03:24 PM
03/03/25 03:24 PM
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OP
Global Moderator Supporting Member 2024
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Within the understanding of the historicist interpretations -- Time lines, prophetic time periods, ended in 1844. No more time lines after 1844. . 1844 is when the seventh trumpet began. And the finishing work of the atonement began. The seventh trumpet has no time lines, we are in the "time of the end" watch and pray for you know not when the Lord will come. That is, the people will not have another message upon definite time. After this period of time, reaching from 1842 to 1844, there can be no definite tracing of the prophetic time. The longest reckoning reaches to the autumn of 1844. {CTr 344.5} " While there is still time, Probation is still open, our clocks are still ticking, things have not yet ended, Christ is still interceding in the heavenly sanctuary, yet there is no more reckoning of time. We don't know when the mystery of God will be finished, all we know it WILL be finished very soon and Jesus will come. And this is the point of great hope and importance -- it hasn't finished yet, but it will very soon. Daryl, I agree with EGW's statement, there is to be no more time periods attached to prophecies after 1844, but I am curious as to what you are aiming for with your questions all focused on time? Are you for or against all this new way of "reckoning" that people like to do concerning events between 1844 and Christ delivering His people? the people will not have another message upon definite time {CTr 344.5}True historicism does not side step those quotes by saying, as long as we throw out the "Day for a Year" principle after 1844, it is no longer prophetic time, so we can still preach more messages in which we can reckon as to how much time we have left, or how much time this event or that event will take as long as we don't use the "day for a year" principle. Somehow some people think those quotes only apply to prophecies if the day for a year principle is applied. Yet, to speculate on time is building on shifting sand, they fail. We are not to set any time predictions on events between 1844 and the Grand Deliverance. Where does the thought come from that somehow getting rid of the day for a year principle is no longer dealing with prophecies time. All prophesied time predicted LITERAL TIME. The 1260 years were literal years. We won't find any verse or quote that says to now get rid of the day for year principle and make new time lines. It seems to me to be a fanciful diversion from the real issues of today, predicting times is not part of the three angel's messages. We need to have faith that Christ is finishing, wrapping up, all His work in completing the mystery of salvation and He will come, when He sees the time is right, not when we think it should happen. We need to be ready NOW. We are at the very end. Why do people want to insert a bunch of timelines, between them and the coming? That's like being on a road trip when a person is just a few more meters from the destination, having passed all the landmarks, and they, instead of eagerly expecting to see their destination any minute, get out the map, add up all the kilometers between the cities they have passed, then, change all the kilometers to meters and say that's how long it will still take????? Not really logical. The truth is, we are very near the end, there are no more timelines. Are we ready NOW.
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#198533
03/04/25 02:51 PM
03/04/25 02:51 PM
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OP
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THE SIXTH TRUMPET
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Christ's work | Text | Symbolism | History |
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Rev. 8:3-4
Jesus is still before
the golden altar of
incense in the Holy Place.
The altar serves as a constant reminder of our need for a mediator between God and humanity.
But at this point, when the 6th trumpet begins in history, His ministry has been largely hidden from the people on earth. |
Rev. 9:13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, |
Four horns
symbolize the four corners of the earth. In Hebraic thought, the earth is likened to a large altar dedicated to God. The four horns may symbolize something going out to those four corners of earth.
Horns also
symbolize strength, or power. Duet. 33:17, 2 Sam. 22:3, Ps. 18:2
A VOICE
Since Jesus is standing at the golden altar in Rev. 8:3, we may assume it is His voice that gives the command. |
1454 the Byzantine Empire fell, Constantinople became Istanbul the Turk's Capital city.
For over 1000 years Constantinople had stood as a barrier between east and west. It's fall would affect the whole world. |
| Rev. 9:14 the great river Euphrates |
Babylon, which anciently was located on the Euphrates River,
is not literal Babylon in Revelation, but is symbolic of the Papal church and her ?daughters?.
Euphrates must then also have a symbolic, not literal meaning. Rev. 17:1 Babylon is said to "sit on many waters", Rev. 17:15 identifies the waters as peoples, multitudes and nations. | The fall of of the Byzantine empire caused quite an extensive shift in regard to peoples, nations, multitudes and ethnic groups. The whole world would be affected. |
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#198593
03/17/25 12:44 AM
03/17/25 12:44 AM
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OP
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THE SIXTH TRUMPET IN REVELATION NINE. | Text | Christ's Work | Symbolism | History | 9:14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, | Christ in holy place mediating | Trumpet angel messenger announcing and warning that more knowledge will be misused | From 1449 to 1840 | Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates. | Opening up more knowledge so people may discover truth. | Four angels with with messages released | With the fall of Byzantine, Four major themes emerged and drifted out to Europe and from there on around the world. | 1. Renaissance: While Europe experienced the Dark Age, the Arabs developed universities, large libraries, musical instruments, clocks, science, chemistry, medicine, navigation, philosophy and humanism. When Constantinople fell in 1453, many scholars fled from the Turks, bringing scientific knowledge as well as Classical Greek and Roman books to Europe. The emphasis on rational thought and science provided a boost to humanism. 2. Reformation: When Constantinople fell in 1453. Hundreds of Greek manuscripts containing passages from the Bible were brought to Europe. The Gutenberg printing press was invented. Men like Erasmus collected Greek manuscripts and printed a Greek Bible in 1516, (Roman Catholic Bible was the Latin Vulgate), those Greek manuscripts were a real boost to Bible study. Men like Tyndale translated the Bible in the tongue of the people. But the Reformation was followed by a Counter Reformation working to extinguish Protestantism. 3. The Turkish Muslims, actually opened up the flow of information. With Constantinople conquered, their armies moved their conquests west, greatly antagonizing the eastern European countries. This was a big distraction to the Vatican's attempts to curb the reformation, as well their desire to adapt to increasing knowledge which was working to increase humans desires for "rights", All this hindered the Vatican's ability to curb the reformation. This distraction helped the Reformation to gain a sizable foothold in Europe. 4. The spirit of conquest of the whole world. With the fall of Constantinople and the Turks controlling the travel routes, it was more difficult for safe travel to India and China for trade. Europe wanted to find a new route to these countries. 1492 Columbus set sail westward to find this route, and found America. Some of the greatest "slaying" of the inhabitants of the earth followed. Whole empires in the Americas were wiped out, by war and disease. Colonization followed. The whole earth was being affected. Were 1/3 of mankind slain? It was definitely a large amount: 1. Those slain in the Turkish wars 2. Those slain because they were Protestant 3. Those slain in all those religious wars in Europe 4. Those slain due to European exploration and conquests.
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#198599
03/17/25 07:51 PM
03/17/25 07:51 PM
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SDA Active Member 2025
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Joined: Nov 2004
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New York
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From the three pieces of evidence: 1. Mrs. White's statement that trump after trump must sound plague after plague must fall; from Elder Strand's outstanding chiastic structure of Revelation; and that Miller had both the trumpets and plagues spread out over history, and that as a church we've compromised holding to Miller's view of trumpets but changing the plagues to Mrs. White's statement of the trumps and plagues: I understand ultamately that we will have to turn from Miller's views of the trumps and like we did with his view of the plagues, turn to Mrs. White's statement that places them in the future. From what Mrs. White said and what the chiasm indicates I understand the trumpets to be the little time of trouble that leads to both the latter rain and close of probation, and the plagues the great time of trouble after the close of probation.
Now, if you read Strand's book on the chiasm, or other Adventist books referring to his study, it sets up an artificial dividing line of all before the middle being historical and all after being prophetic. However, when we were presented with Strand's chiasm at Atlantic Union College, the professors did not mention the idea that the first half of Revelation was historic and the second half prophetic,. Of course my professors at AUC taught that the trumpets and plagues are both future and Strand's chiasm was a major argument for them. When I was as the seminary and found that "first half historic and last half prophetic" it does not feel right. Other Biblical chiasms don't work this way and it was all prophetic when John wrote Revelation, I made an appointment with Dr. Strand to ask him about it. He became guarded and said "I know what Mrs. White said, and I know what my study of a chiasm indicates, but those higher up [and pointed up] told me that if I did not do something to support the traditional view of the trumpets that I'd have to look for a new job..." and would not go further.
An additional thing that bothers me about the traditional understanding is that it comes quite strong on the Muslims. I believe that Islam is sadly going through their own version of the dark ages, but that Mohamad was impressed with the God of the Bible, but found Judaism incomplete without Jesus, but found the corruption in the church, and how many saints were treated as the pagans treated the different false gods, he was not comfortable becoming a Christian. He did not know how many of the church's errors got into the scripure, so he tried to worship the God of the Bible yet try to avoid the couruption of the church (Interestingly, as we look at the "Muslim crescent" it surrounded the corrupt church and began receding as Protestantism grew. ) While there could be things in their history that was not the best, I'm not comfortable making them too much the villian. (The 1844 message was not only in Christianity, but also pockets of Jews and Muslims).
Now that I've given my little temper tantrum, let me also say that before we can have a clearer understanding of prophecy we need to see how the Lord had lead his people in the past. A first and sadly overlooked, but most important step is to see what the original local events were happening that the prophecies are based on and how God wanted to end the work back then. The second step is to see how God's people have applied it over history; so in this case it means to have an awareness of the traditional view of the trumpets over history. What will happen with be a direct reflection over how it could have been fulfilled in John's day, but also the principles have been carried over in historism and help us see what is happening when it is time to know; it will build on what the Lord has already been leading us over historism, and our faithfulness to where the Lord has thus far lead us, but being aware that there are things we need to learn and unlearn, God will be able to lead us farther. If we completely reject the Mrs. Whtie quote and what the chiasm naturally indicates and want to hold dogmaticly to the traditional view God can't lead us any further. If we simply want to give it up and wait for something else, we will have nothing in our minds that God can work with, nothing that God can build upon.
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#198601
03/17/25 11:45 PM
03/17/25 11:45 PM
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OP
Global Moderator Supporting Member 2024
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There is a lot more to understanding the historicism view in prophecy than what people realize. THE SIXTH TRUMPET IN REVELATION NINE. | Text | Christ's Work | Symbolism | History | 9:14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, | Christ in holy place mediating | Trumpet angel messenger announcing and warning that more knowledge will be misused | From 1449 to 1840 | Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates. | Opening up more knowledge so people may discover truth. | Four angels with with messages released | With the fall of Byzantine, Four major themes emerged and drifted out to Europe and from there on around the world. | 1. Renaissance: While Europe experienced the Dark Age, the Arabs developed universities, large libraries, musical instruments, clocks, science, chemistry, medicine, navigation, philosophy and humanism. When Constantinople fell in 1453, many scholars fled from the Turks, bringing scientific knowledge as well as Classical Greek and Roman books to Europe. The emphasis on rational thought and science provided a boost to humanism. 2. Reformation: When Constantinople fell in 1453. Hundreds of Greek manuscripts containing passages from the Bible were brought to Europe. The Gutenberg printing press was invented. Men like Erasmus collected Greek manuscripts and printed a Greek Bible in 1516, (The Roman Catholic Bible was the Latin Vulgate)Those Greek manuscripts greatly increased interest in Bible study. Men like Tyndale translated the Bible in the tongue of the people. But the Reformation was followed by a Counter Reformation working to extinguish Protestantism. 3. The Turkish Muslims, actually opened up the flow of information. With Constantinople conquered, their armies moved their conquests west, greatly antagonizing the eastern European countries. This was a big distraction to the Vatican's to curb the Reformation. The Vatican's attempts to adapt to increasing knowledge which was working to increase humans desires for "rights" also hindered their ability to curb the reformation. This distraction helped the Reformation to gain a sizable foothold in Europe. 4. The spirit of conquest of the whole world. With the fall of Constantinople it was more difficult for safe travel to India and China for trade, as the Turks now had control of the travel routes. Europe wanted to find a new route to these countries. 1492 Columbus set sail westward to find this route, and found America. Some of the greatest "slaying" of the inhabitants of the earth followed. Whole empires in the Americas were wiped out, by war and disease. Colonization followed. The whole earth was being affected. Were 1/3 of mankind slain? It was definitely a large amount: 1. Those slain in the Turkish wars 2. Those slain because they were Protestant 3. Those slain in all those religious wars in Europe 4. Those slain due to European exploration and conquests. Let's look closer at the symbolism. | Text | Symbol with Explanation | sixth angel which had the trumpet, | Angel=messenger, trumpet= announcements and/or warnings | Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates. | angels=messengers, four messages loose= means something was holding them back,
| These are messages of information, which had concentrated in the east and which the fall of Constantinople released, spread out and scattered throughout Europe, Russian and on into the the world. This was happening throughout the 391 years. The four "angels" were not four generals that died shortly after 1449. | | And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them | Horses = carriers of soldiers and messengers Them that sat on them = these people are not the same as the horses | It was Christ who authorized the release, He did it to further the promotion of truth and bring people to repentance, but the devil worked to turn it to his advantage to attempt the destruction of truth and life. | | and them that sat on them, having breastplates, | THE breastplates = symbolizes both protection and integrity and moral character in spiritual warfare. (Eph. 6:14)
Beastplate also symbolizes Judgment, both for and against, The high Priest wore breastplate with Urim and the Thummim in Ex. 39 | The breastplate is sanctuary language, as the High Priest wore a breastplate with 12 precious gems. The sixth trumpet wasn't just a warning that turning against God brought disaster, it was also a call to repentance, and to look up to Christ mediating for them in the heavenly sanctuary. | | breastplates of fire, and of jacinth | jacinth = a gem in the Bible, a precious stone, located in the third row of the priest's breastplate (Exodus 28:19)
jacinth, the eleventh layer of gems in the foundation of the New Jerusalem (Rev. 21:20) Fire = can destroy, it can also cleanse. | Christ's purpose in authorizing the release of these movements was to bring truth into the foreground once again. It was preparation for the world which would soon face the seventh trumpet. |
and the heads of the horses as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone. | Heads of Lions. Christ is the Lion of Judah, He is the Word, the truth and the life, but there are other lions roaring as well -- Babylonian beast of Daniel 7 had a lion's head. The devil is like a roaring lion seeking whom he can devour. 1Peter 5:8 | Releasing the spread for/of knowledge was meant to bring forth truth and ignite a deeper search for truth, especially Biblical truth, yet this spread of knowledge was seized by the devil to destroy truth and bring forth counterfeits to bury and hide the truth. | out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone...9:17 which issued out of their mouths...9:18 their power is in their mouth...9"19 | Three times the focus is on mouth. Mouth represents TALK speaking and spreading of ideas. | These horses are arguing, fighting with words, against the things God wanted people to understand. | | 9:19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails [were] like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt. | power in their tails Isaiah 9:15 the prophet that teaches lies, he is the tail. Those tails had heads, serpent heads, meaning they were speaking counterfeits inspired by the serpent. | What were these counterfeits that rose against the truth? Reinterpreting prophecy with futuristic and preterist interpretations taking focus off the central themes in prophecy. But especially replacing the Savior with man's achievement, wisdom and reasoning powers. | | yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: | Muslim, Catholic, pagan, eastern religions all depend on human achievement for salvation, while Christ, takes a secondary place, or is shut out completed. | | The issues in Revelation, all through the ages revolve around the Great Controversy, will people come and worship and follow Christ in Whom is life and salvation, or will they follow the devil's deceptions thinking they can be or make their own god, which only ends in destruction. | | Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts. | There was a lot of physical destruction, and very hurtful actions taking place during that time, as conquest, force and coercion was continually applied. | Religious persecution, Religious wars, Political wars and conquests, destroy 1/3 of the world population. Even Rome's population dropped from 55,000 to 10,000 in 1527 AD. |
| an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year391 years, | 1449 -1840 From the fall of Byzantine empire to the Turks, to the passing of power from Turkish empire to the European powers | By 1840 the landscape of civilization had greatly changed. Protestantism principles and more representative government was the leading influence in most of the western world, the world was expecting a millennium of peace! In spite of the counterfeits that raged against them over those years, truth had also left its mark. Would the world move forward and accept the message of the seventh trumpet, or would they reject and fight against it, with all the counterfeits that were established in the past flaring to new heights of intensity to fight against truth.
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#198603
03/20/25 03:12 AM
03/20/25 03:12 AM
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OP
Global Moderator Supporting Member 2024
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Revelation 11 depicts an event, near the end of the sixth trumpet's 391 years, which resulted due to the misuse of the knowledge released in 1449. That event was French Revolution.
. The release of ancient wisdom which sparked the renaissance or rebirth of human desire for excellence and knowledge, had developed into the Age of Reason and humanism, as well as encouraging people to fight for liberty and equality. But, this shift away from a more tightly controlled society, led people to depend on self, and look to self, instead of seeking the wisdom of God and righteousness. The focus was to honor the power of reasoning abilities and achievements of mankind above the Creator God.
In France, especially, the truths gleaned from the rediscovered manuscripts and translations of God's Word which had been the foundation of the Reformation, had been countered by the Vatican's Counter Reformation. The Vatican sought to exterminate Protestantism. It was a time when the word of truth could only witness "in sackcloth" until finally in France, it was "killed" and human reason was exalted as the only rule and object to worship.
When God and His law is separated and rejected from mankind's reasoning and ambitions, evil triumphs. This was demonstrated in the reign of terror that raged in France, the depth of evil, when God and His law is cast out, is terrible.
What happened in France was not yet the final crises when the Holy Spirit departs from earth and Satan is allowed to fully demonstrate his evil, but it was frightening demonstration of what happens when God and His law is rejected.
In Revelation 11, it wasn't the whole world that rejected God and His Word, and the very horror of what happened in and around France, helped people realize how precious God's Word was, and the Bible gained popularity as never before. There was great revival of faith and a seeking for truth in many countries, especially those where Protestantism was alive. The years following 1798 and on to 1840 are known as a period of "spiritual awakening."
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#198643
03/27/25 02:39 AM
03/27/25 02:39 AM
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OP
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So what is the life saving message of these trumpets?Is it all about catastrophe, wars, and armies? Is it a sandbox where people can play with fanciful interpretations? No -- it's about Christ and His Word, it's the battle between truth and error. When we come to the end of the sixth trumpet we see this more clearly. There we see -- two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. Rev. 11:4 Those candlesticks represented the word of God. The psalmist says, "Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto may path Ps 119:105 Those 391 years are about the struggle to bring the Bible back to the people. The sixth trumpet is nearing it's end, a terrible battle to get rid of the Bible erupts in France, 1793,, when for a short time one nation almost succeeded in doing so, but after that reign of terror, there was a virtual explosion of Bibles all over the world! The atheistical power that ruled in France during the Revolution and the Reign of Terror, did wage such a war against God and His holy word as the world had never witnessed. The worship of the Deity was abolished by the National Assembly. Bibles were collected and publicly burned with every possible manifestation of scorn. The law of God was trampled underfoot. The institutions of the Bible were abolished. GC 274 The same master spirit that urged on the St. Bartholomew Massacre led also in the scenes of the Revolution. Jesus Christ was declared to be an impostor, and the rallying cry of the French infidels was, "Crush the Wretch," meaning Christ. Heaven-daring blasphemy and abominable wickedness went hand in hand, {GC 273} When France publicly rejected God and set aside the Bible, wicked men and spirits of darkness exulted in their attainment of the object so long desired--a kingdom free from the restraints of the law of God. {GC 287} Did we see a battle against the Bible and the truth of Christ's salvation all through those trumpets? 1st Trumpet (27-70 AD) Christ Who is the Word, Life and Truth walked among men revealing the Character of God and the truth of the kingdom of God and salvation. Some believed, but the majority rejected Him, the author and creator of Life and Truth. Matt. 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that kills the prophets, and stones them which are sent unto tyou , how often would I have gathered your children together, even as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. And the desolation came in 70 AD. 2nd Trumpet (70 - 476) God's Word with the Gospel was taken to the Gentiles. Roman united with Christianity, the state uniting with the church, but it was not a matter of the heart, lives were not changed, instead paganism entered the church. The western Roman Empire fell like a great burning mountain into the sea of humanity. ( 476 AD) 3rd Trumpet (476 - 600) The infusion of wormwood doctrines into the Christian church, made the "water of life" bitter. (Early papal years) 4th trumpet God's Word hidden from the people, darkness -- the dark ages. (600 - 1200 AD) 5th trumpet (1229 -1499) This was the Eastern Byzantine Empire's call to repentance as destruction was threatening . The Eastern Orthodox Church had greater resources of truth and ancient writings. It was always a few steps behind the Roman church's apostasy. Though they did eventually embrace most of the non Biblical beliefs and practices of the Roman church. In prophecy locusts become a symbol of divine intervention in human affairs. In Christ, protection is offered against scorpions (Luke 10:19) But here the scorpions are given power to cause distress. All through Biblical history we see God ?giving? his people who have turned from Him, into the hands of raiders and enemies, in the hopes they would repent and turn back to Him. They were harassed 150 years. 1229-1449 by the Ottomans. Would they trust in God and turn to His Word or trust in their military might? But they didn't repent. 6th Trumpet 1449 -1840 The fall of the Byzantine Empire 1449 - 1453 to the Ottomans, scattered the Orthodox believers into Russia and the west. They took with them many of the ancient writings including Greek manuscripts of the Bible. These manuscripts were collected, Erasmus produces a Greek Bible which reformers translated into local languages. Printing was invented. The Word of God was being made more available. The Reformation began with its call for solo Scripture. Yes, there were also many wars, persecution and destruction, but do we also see the role of scripture through these trumpets? The sixth trumpet includes the war against the Bible itself during the French revolution. (11:7-9) It also shows the two olive trees and the lampstand which signifies God pouring truth from the scripture for mankind to learn and taste.(11:3) It includes the resurrection of the two witnesses (the Bible) during the revolution,(11:11) and its elevation into popularity.(11:12) The Bible gained ground during the Reformation, and the sixth trumpet shows the angel with an open book -- standing on land and sea. (10:2) That open book contains the Biblical books of prophecy (Daniel, Revelation) the people are urged to eat (read) it. The sixth trumpet is reaching it's end as prophecy is being opened up. And we see the development of the Millerite movement. By the end of the sixth trumpet the Bible is now the most sold book.
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#198644
03/27/25 11:03 AM
03/27/25 11:03 AM
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The Millerite Movement began in 1831, therefore, would that mean that the sixth trumpet also began in 1831?
In His Love, Mercy & Grace, Daryl John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#198648
03/28/25 03:13 AM
03/28/25 03:13 AM
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OP
Global Moderator Supporting Member 2024
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No, the 6th trumpet covers 391 years, from 1449 to 1840.
It began with fall of the Byzantine Empire to the Ottomans, which, according to Revelation released four angels or messages. Knowledge that had concentrated in the east. This release of knowledge, included many Greek manuscripts. When Constantinople fell in 1453. Hundreds of Greek manuscripts containing passages from the Bible were brought to Europe. The Gutenberg printing press was invented. Men like Erasmus collected Greek manuscripts and printed a Greek Bible in 1516, (The Roman Catholic Bible was the Latin Vulgate) but now people had access to manuscripts in the original language. Others like Tyndale translated the Bible in the tongue of the people. This sparked the reformation. The Papal Church fought back, and there were many "religious" wars and much persecution. The French Revolution took place near the end of the 6th trumpet. Resulting in the end of the 1260 years of papal primacy. The sixth trumpet covered quite a time of turbulence and change as the world emerged from under the papal primacy. In the years following 1798 much of the western world experienced a "Great Awakening" in religious matters.
The Millerite movement took place as the 6th trumpet was ending in 1840, and led into the 7th trumpet which began in 1844.
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#198664
03/31/25 10:50 AM
03/31/25 10:50 AM
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Had you addressed what you think Ellen White means by, "Trumpet after trumpet is to be sounded"?
The battle of Armageddon will be fought. And that day must find none of us sleeping. Wide awake we must be, as wise virgins having oil in our vessels with our lamps. The power of the Holy Ghost must be upon us and the Captain of the Lord's host will stand at the head of the angels of heaven to direct the battle. Solemn events before us are yet to transpire. Trumpet after trumpet is to be sounded; vial after vial poured out one after another upon the inhabitants of the earth. Scenes of stupendous interest are right upon us and these things will be sure indications of the presence of Him who has directed in every aggressive movement, who has accompanied the march of His cause through all the ages, and who has graciously pledged Himself to be with His people in all their conflicts to the end of the world. He will vindicate His truth. He will cause it to triumph. He is ready to supply His faithful ones with motives and power of purpose, inspiring them with hope and courage and valor in increased activity as the time is at hand. {3SM 426.1}
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#198667
04/01/25 02:28 PM
04/01/25 02:28 PM
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OP
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Trumpet after trumpet -- yes, all the evil that has accumulated over the centuries will be active in the last days. The historic trumpets reveal the battle, and the real issues. It's all focused on Christ and His Word, against forces of evil. He has witnessed and warned against "every aggressive movement", and has "accompanied the march of His cause through all the ages,". That's what the trumpets are "the march" of both exposing the enemy, and " the march of His cause through all the ages", 1. Fall of Jerusalem. People haven't changed much, and in the last days continue to depend on forms and rituals -- see the result in the first trumpet way back in the first century. The warning didn't cease in 70 AD. 2. Christianity unites with Rome, Western Rome falls. People will link the "main" religion with the state, to enforce it's beliefs, -- see the result in the second trumpet. 3. Pollution of pure doctrines People will accept papal doctrines in place of the life giving truth of God's Word, -- it's the cumulative result in the third trumpet as truth becomes "wormwood". 4. Paganism has entered the church, spiritual darkness -- dark ages commences. People will experience darkness because God's Word is replace by man's mandates -- see the result in the fourth trumpet. Though Christ has sent shafts of light to dispel the darkness, that darkness is still very much present in the world, and is intensifying. 5. Fall of the Byzantine Empire The last call to repentance is overwhelmed with "locusts" as it was for the Byzantine empire standing at the very door of being destroyed, yet they held on to it's delusions and would not repent. It is the warning of the fifth trumpet. Clouds of locusts always come from satan's agents to block out the light. Again its just the cumulative result the fifth trumpet warned and is still warning. 6. In the sixth trumpet four angels released messages, truth becomes known and available for study, the reformation brings more truth to light, but there is much blood shed, religious wars, persecution, -- the French Revolution at the end of the 6th trumpet gave a glimpse as to the result of fully pushing aside God's clear Word and depending upon man made reason. The spirit behind the French Revolution is very much alive still. 7. The seventh trumpet the saints are vindicated in the heavenly court as citizens of the New Jerusalem. The realization of the ark of the covenant in the Most Holy points God's people to God's law as the foundation of His kingdom, and though the nations are in turbulence, Christ takes His kingdom and his saints will be delivered when Christ comes.
It is NOT prophecy repeating, it is all the dangers predicted and announced and demonstrated by the trumpets throughout the Christian era, reaching and displaying the result of what was built up throughout the those ages.
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#198670
04/02/25 06:12 PM
04/02/25 06:12 PM
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Mrs. White tells us that we will not fully understand what the mark of the beast will be until the unrolling of the scroll. Now the unrolling of the scroll is when the 7th seal is broken, and this is when the trumpets start. Mrs. White wrote this, and it was only revealed to her, long after Uriah Smith wrote Daniel and Revelation and the development of the traditions. Most of us have not yet caught up to her.
Again, in college this was brought together with the possibility that the trumpets are the little time of trouble where saints who will not make it through the difficulties of the time of trouble will be put to sleep, but their lives and death will be soul winning, and things will push into the latter rain and close of probation. Then the plagues are the great time of trouble after the close of probation. While none others are able to convert, no more of the saints will die.
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#198672
04/05/25 11:45 PM
04/05/25 11:45 PM
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OP
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Mrs. White tells us that we will not fully understand what the mark of the beast will be until the unrolling of the scroll. Now the unrolling of the scroll is when the 7th seal is broken, and this is when the trumpets start. That is a futurist explanation which is quite popular in the world, but EGW places those first six trumpets in the past. We are in the seventh trumpet. Actually EGW is very sure of what the Mark of the beast will be, we may not know all the details, but we can know what it is all about, and she does NOT say that's when the seven trumpets start. She stresses the urgency to loudly proclaim the message now. Here's the quote: The light we have received upon the third angel's message is the true light. The mark of the beast is exactly what it has been proclaimed to be. Not all in regard to this matter is yet understood, nor will it be understood until the unrolling of the scroll; but a most solemn work is to be accomplished in our world. The Lord's command to His servants is: "Cry aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and show My people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins." Isaiah 58:1. A message that will arouse the churches is to be proclaimed. Every effort is to be made to give the light, not only to our people, but to the world.{6T 17.1} {8T 159.3} Why would there be trumpets after the sixth seal? There are no trumpets after the second coming. Yet the second coming happens at the end of the sixth seal, when the sky rolls back like a scroll, and all the mountains and islands are moved out of place, when the unsaved rush for the mountains in an attempt to hide from Christ's glorious appearing, ( Rev. 6:17 "For the great day of his wrath is come" and the saved stand with white robes before the throne. (Rev 7:9 I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude,.. stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands" The sixth seal is Christ's second coming. We believe without a doubt that Christ is soon to come; and believing this we feel a necessity upon us to plead with men and women to prepare for the coming of the Son of Man. We do not want that any of you should be of that number who shall call for rocks and mountains to fall on them to hide them from the face of Him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb. {RH, April 12, 1870 par. 4} . The seventh seal is silence. Not trumpets. It's quite possible that we will understand more fully the implications of the forces against Christ, once we get to heaven and can look back in the heavenly books to see God's call, and see the full scope and terribleness of man's rebellion and satan's ambition to destroy them. But it's by studying each vision revealed as each seal is removed that we can with certainty, know NOW what the mark of the beast is about, even if we don't know all the details as to just how it will be enforced. That scroll is pretty near completely open NOW, enough so we can recognize the mark when it is enforced, there will be no excuse for not knowing. The first six trumpets also show the build up leading to the mark of the beast. The actual mark of the beast comes into play before the second coming, and before the close of probation. It's pretty urgent we understand that NOW, as it could happen any day now. When that scroll is fully unrolled the second coming will have taken place, and it will be too late to change. Once Christ comes no humans are left alive on earth. No trumpets will be sounding then. The seventh trumpet began in 1844 and takes us through the second coming. It starts with the revelation that Christ is in the most Holy Place before the "Ancient of Days" to receive His kingdom (Compare with Daniel 7:13-14) and God's law in the ark of the testimony is "seen" (Rev. 11:19). It is the last trumpet, with the three angel's messages, announcing the "hour of His judgement has come". It is the third angel's message lifting up God's law, calling people to worship the Creator God, and come out of Babylon away from the beast and his image, and (according to Great Controversy) ends with God revealing that law (no longer in the ark of the testament under the mercy seat) from the heavens and Christ's second coming. (Quoting from the seventh trumpet) ?The temple of God was opened in Heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament.? [Revelation 11:19.] The ark of God's testament is in the holy of holies, the second apartment of the sanctuary. In the ministration of the earthly tabernacle, which served ?unto the example and shadow of heavenly things,? this apartment was opened only upon the great day of atonement, for the cleansing of the sanctuary. Therefore the announcement that the temple of God was opened in Heaven, and the ark of his testament was seen, points to the opening of the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary, in 1844, as Christ entered there to perform the closing work of the atonement {GC88 433.2} {GC 433.1}
As foretold in the Scriptures, the ministration of Christ in the most holy place began at the termination of the prophetic days in 1844. To this time apply the words of the Revelator, (Quoting from the seventh trumpet) "The temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in His temple the ark of His testament." Revelation 11:19. The ark of God's testament is in the second apartment of the sanctuary. As Christ entered there, to minister in the sinner's behalf, the inner temple was opened, and the ark of God was brought to view. To those who by faith beheld the Saviour in His work of intercession, God's majesty and power were revealed. As the train of His glory filled the temple, light from the holy of holies was shed upon His waiting people on the earth. {SR 379.2}
Again, "the temple of God was opened," and he looked within the inner veil, upon the holy of holies. Here he beheld, "the ark of His testament," represented by the sacred chest constructed by Moses to contain the law of God. {RH, November 9, 1905 par. 9} In the ministration of the earthly tabernacle, which served "unto the example and shadow of heavenly things," the holy of holies was opened only upon the great day of atonement, the typical day of judgment, set apart for the cleansing of the sanctuary. Therefore the announcement, "The temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament," points to the opening of the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary, at the end of the twenty-three hundred days,--in 1844,--as Christ entered there to perform the closing work of the atonement. {RH, November 9, 1905 par. 10}
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#198693
04/16/25 06:58 PM
04/16/25 06:58 PM
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OP
Global Moderator Supporting Member 2024
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Revelation chapters 10 and 11 mark the transition period ending the sixth trumpet and leading into the seventh. 1798 The papacy lost it's power (revolution in chapter 11) European kings lost their power to a more representative government style. The Ottoman empire lost it's power in 1840 at the end of the 391 years. But something else of great Biblical importance also happened at the end of the sixth trumpet, leading into the main message of the seventh trumpet. We find this in Revelation 10. Rev. 10:1 And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow upon his head, and his face as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire: | A mighty heavenly Messenger. He is surrounded by symbols of the covenant. | This is obviously an important heavenly Being, many believe it is Christ Himself, coming to reveal a very important message. | | 10:2 And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left [foot] on the earth, | The message according to vs 6 is about "time". The book containing time prophecies, which was sealed until "the time of the end," was the book of Daniel. In Revelation 10 those time lines are open for study and we find they all end by 1844. There are no more definite time lines ahead. What is still ahead? The judgement hour message -- the message of the three angels in Rev. 14. | The time has come for the seventh trumpet to sound: (Rev,11:15) And the seventh angel sounded (Rev.11:18) the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, when (Dan. 7:9-10) the Ancient of days did sit, before him thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.(7:13) the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days. Jesus said, 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. | | 10:3 And cried with a loud voice, as [when] a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices | The lion of the tribe of Judah will win over the lion that's prowling all over this earth seeking whom he can devour. A lion is symbolic of kingship, power, a ruler, law giver. | As the sixth trumpet ends and the seventh is about to sound, Christ is about to embark on the final work in preparation for His second coming. In the PreAdvent Judgment, confessing all the names of the "overcomers" before the Ancient of Days, finalizing the list of God's redeemed in the book of Life. | | Rev. 10:4 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not. | "The special light given to John which was expressed in the seven thunders was a delineation of events which would transpire under the first and second angels' messages. It was not best for the people to know these things, for their faith must necessarily be tested. In the order of God most wonderful and advanced truths would be proclaimed. {1MR 99.3} | The thunders are placed between the sounding of the sixth and seventh trumpets. EGW tells us it has something to do with Rev, 14's,1st and 2nd angels messages (both of which were proclaimed before 1844, but not fully understood) Understanding would increase "In the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery will be finished." They thought Christ would come in 1844, they understood the time, but they misunderstood the event. Thunders are also linked God's law. There is still a third angel's message, and the seventh trumpet both having to do with God's law needing to be restored. The 2300 days did NOT point to Christ's second coming to earth, they pointed to the sanctuary being cleansed, God's law restored, and Christ being brought before the Ancient of days and the heavenly court to present the names of all the saved. | | Rev. 10:7. But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he has declared to his servants the prophets." | The seventh trumpet will take earth's history through the last events and on into the great final climax, final victory over sin and into eternal redemption for all who have made their destiny secure in Christ. Though the people taking hold of the little book will suffer great disappointment, they are not to despair, for that final day of victory will come. | The mystery, Eph. 1:9,10: "Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he has purposed in himself: that in the dispensation of the fulness of time he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him." | | Rev.10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer. | The voice of the 1st Angel of Rev. 14 is heard in this declaration. 14:6-7 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel... Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. | In the closing work of God in the earth, the standard of His law will be again exalted. Prior to 1844 there was well-nigh universal disregard of the Sabbath commandment in the Christian world. That part of the 1st angel's message was not yet understood. Also the 2nd angel's message: Babylon is fallen is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication" was only partially understood prior to 1844. Thunders are connected with God's broken commandments. The loudest thunder roars in the 3rd angel's message. In 1844 God did not yet have a people who kept His commandments while they honored the beasts' day and disregarded the sanctified day. | Rev. 10:8-10 Go and take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which standeth upon the sea and upon the earth....Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey...So I ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter. | Study the timelines, they will show we are at the "time of the end", you will find the message sweet, but you will misunderstand and be bitterly disappointed, | That's what happened in 1844. How sweet the thought that Christ was coming to cleanse the earth and take them home to heaven that October in 1844. But they failed to realize there were more prophecies that needed to be fulfilled in the "time of the end" in preparation for the second coming. | | Rev. 10:11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings. | God had more to teach them. The three angel's messages still had to be fully understood and shared with the world. | And the seventh trumpet pointed them to heaven and the sanctuary there where they saw the ark of the testament. (11:19) | 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. | The hour of His judgment has come. The work is going on in the heavenly court. In vision on the Isle of Patmos John said: ", Arise and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein." | This solemn work also needs to be done upon the earth. Surrender your life fully to Him, and the Lord will empower you that you may daily gain new victories, His righteousness will fill your life when you chose to follow Him, and you will finally enter the city of God, as those who have overcome by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony.
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#198740
05/04/25 04:05 PM
05/04/25 04:05 PM
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OP
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The churches, seals and trumpets all have a story to tell concerning Christianity from the time of Christ until the end. | VISION | Message | Purpose | Response | Outcome | | Churches | Christ is with His church. Working for their salvation. He knows their struggles, shortcomings and condition. He is encouraging them to overcome. | The purpose is to give counsel, reprove, appeals, urging church members to overcome, giving wonderful promises to those, who in Christ are overcomers. | There are faithful ones, but the main trend is downward, away from the truth of Christ?s gospel. The word ?repent? is oft repeated. | When their lampstand grows dim it is in danger of being lost. But those who overcome are promised a glorious future. The vision of the churches is full of promises | Seals | The Seals stress the work of the gospel upon Christianity. | They show the darkening of the truth of life as false doctrines enter, until the main form of Christianity is deadly. They show the need for a righteous judgment, as the world Church is misjudging God?s people and claiming to be "truth". | While many reject and turn against Christ and His people, there is a multitude more than we can number, that have overcome in the blood of the Lamb and stand in white robes | Those who stand against the gospel will beg for rocks to fall on them and hide them from the ?Lamb?! Those who embrace Christ and His gospel will stand in joyful, thankful victory before Lamb | | Trumpets | The trumpets deal with judgment and show the sad out come of rejecting the gospel. | They are warnings ? learn from the past as peoples and nations who were given the Gospel, resisted and rejected it. A final judgment will come (during 7th trumpet) | Deals largely with a Christianity that has rejected truth and built walls against truth even though Christ is ministering for them in heaven. | To reject truth of the true gospel is to reject life, and only leads to destruction. But the judgment will sit and God will give reward to those who served Him faithfully. |
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#198741
05/04/25 04:31 PM
05/04/25 04:31 PM
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OP
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And right on time -- as the sixth trumpet was closing. The 1260 years had ended, the bible was being made available. The 6th trumpet's 391 years were about close.
The Bible gives us a loud announcement! in Rev. 10
Rev. 10:1 And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, 10:2 And he had in his hand a little book open: 10:3 And cried with a loud voice, as [when] a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices
Rev. 10:8-10 Go and take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which standeth upon the sea and upon the earth....Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey...So I ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter. Rev. 10:11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.
And yes, the people (these were NOT seventh-day Adventists, they were people from many different denominations) studied the timelines and saw (according to the historicist interpretation) that all the time lines had either come to an end or were ending by 1843-4. They began to give the first of the three angel's messages -- "the hour of God's judgement is come!"
They studied Daniel 8:14 "Unto 2300 days then shall the ____________ be cleansed." Problem? They placed the word "EARTH" in that blank. The Bible said "Unto 2300 days then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
A small group, by the grace of God, discovered this misreading, and got their Bibles out to study more about the sanctuary which was to be cleansed. They noticed that scripture said they must prophesy again. They noticed that there were more angels in Revelation 14, after the announcement of "the hour of God's judgment is come". They noticed the sixth trumpet had come to its end, and the seventh trumpet was beginning.
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#198784
05/18/25 03:37 AM
05/18/25 03:37 AM
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OP
Global Moderator Supporting Member 2024
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THE SEVENTH TRUMPET
"But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets." Rev.10:7.
The finishing of the mystery of God is the full accomplishment of the work of salvation, finishing all the requirements that cleanses sinners and declares them ready to enter the realms of glory where righteousness, love and holiness reigns.
This has an earthly and a heavenly work: 1. In the heavenly -- the work of the priesthood of our Lord, to bring it to a close by completing all its immense work. There is a heavenly, legal action of separation of the "sheep" and "goats". The genuine believers from the mere professors. Before the second coming when the execution of gathering the "wheat" and the destruction of the "tares", can be carried out. 2. In the earthly -- the work of the proclamation of the gospel to the inhabitants of the earth, including the three angels' messages with the final, urgent, loud cry to come to Christ for salvation and cleansing, and of warning of imminent coming destruction .
The seventh trumpet isn't an instantaneous event. It covers a period of time. The last phase of the priesthood of Christ begins when the Ancient of Days opens the judgment, and the Son of man (Jesus) is brought before the Ancient of Days. (see Daniel 7) and it is while that judgment is in session that the last messages of warning are addressed to men. Rev.14:6-14. The first of those last messages announces that "the hour of God's judgment has come", it is followed with two more messages, before we read that the reaping begins in Rev. 14..
This helps us to understand that the period of time in which the finishing of the mystery of God takes place, is precisely that space when the heavenly court is engaged in the investigative judgment in heaven and God's messengers on earth are proclaiming the three angels' messages.
The text does not say that the mystery of God shall be finished at the moment when the seventh angel begins to sound. No -- it says, "In the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound," etc.
It's the seventh trumpet angel which announces the whole time period in which the work will be finished -- a period of time devoted to this work. "But in the days" these days in the seventh trumpet prophecy are prophetic days, i.e., years, just as days were years in the fifth and sixth trumpets. How many years it doesn't it does not tell us -- as there are no more "timelines" after 1844.
EVENTS DURING THE SEVENTH TRUMPET
The events under the sounding of the seventh angel, are, from their nature not difficult to understand, especially if compared with Daniel 7. 1. In the days, i.e., years, from the beginning of the voice of the seventh angel, the work of human probation will be finished. This involves the closing up of the immense work of our High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary. It also requires the proclamation of the final warnings to mankind. 2. The Son of man (Jesus as the new Adam, representative of the human race) is brought before the Ancient of Days and He receives the dominion mankind lost through the first Adam. (Daniel 7:13-14). (Rev.11:15-17) These verses are like book ends to the seventh trumpet. Jesus first receives the title of the dominion BEFORE the second coming. But several things must yet take place before He takes possession of this dominion.
3. Christ is finishing his priesthood at the tribunal of his Father, in the holiest of the heavenly temple, the time of judgment of the righteous dead takes place. (Rev.11:18). This takes place before the close of his priesthood. Jesus presents the names of all the overcomers through His blood, before the Father (the Ancient of days) and the angels. (Rev. 3.5). Their sins are blotted out. Their names permanently in the book of life. The reverse is also true, those who did not overcome through His blood and transforming grace, can't have their sins blotted out, but have their names removed.
4. Here on earth Bible students of the prophecies realize what is happening in heaven, The most holy place of the temple in heaven is opened to their understanding and the ark of the testament is seen. (Rev.11:19). This is the place where our Lord's priesthood is finished, it is the place where the Ancient of Days sits in judgment. On earth, people not only realize the judgment has begun, they also realize the ark contains God's commandments, His standard, all ten are important, especially the one that honors our Creator.
5. The wrath of God comes upon the wicked when Christ leaves the Most Holy Place. It comes in the seven last plagues. Rev.11:18,19; 14:9-11, 18:20; 15:16;
6. The anger of the nations, especially against God's people, comes in resistance to the message God's people have given. The work of the unclean spirits stirs them up to violent resistance, especially under the sixth plague, as they fight in the battle of the great day of God Almighty. Rev..11:18; 16:13,14; 19:19-21.
7. The second coming. The giving of reward, eternal life, to the servants of God, the resurrection of the just. Rev.11:18; Luke 14:14; Matt.16:27, translation of the cleansed saints. 1 Cor.15:51-57, meeting Christ in the air (1 Thess 4:16-17). And the destruction of the wicked. ( Rev.11:18) who live not again till the 1000 years are finished. (Rev. 20:5)
8. Final destruction of all wickedness, root and branch, takes place after the 1000 years. During the 1000 years, the saved will investigate the records before the final execution to remove all wickedness is carried out. John says "I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them" (Rev. 20:4) they shall be priests of God and of Christ (Rev. 20:6). Not until the saved know why eternal destruction must come upon the individual lost, will the final destruction of all wickedness take place. But first even the lost will acknowledge and proclaim the justice of God. (Phil 4:10) At the end of the 1000 years, comes the second resurrection when all see the great coronation of Christ, the One Who loved all in the world, the One who died that none needed to perish (John 3:16) those who perish do so because they loved darkness and refused to come to the light (John 3:19-20). In Rev. 20, and Daniel 2:35 we see the reign of the second Adam is the re-establishment of the empire of God on this planet, all wickedness, and their bid to exercise oppressive dominion, is burned, wiped out, gone forever. The earth is made new. (Rev. 21) The great coronation of Christ is announced by the great voices in heaven, and by the words of the twenty four elders which echoes through the universe. (Rev. 11:15-17, Rev. 15:3) Sin is gone forever, the God of Love and Holiness reigns. And all know, without a shadow of doubt, that God is love and just and worthy to be praised.
The events of the seventh trumpet do therefore extend over the whole period of the great judgment.
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#198832
06/16/25 12:16 PM
06/16/25 12:16 PM
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OP
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The Book of Revelation is the Revelation of Jesus Christ. It does not just reveal what happens after the year 2000 AD. It reveals everything that takes place under what Hebrews calls the "New Covenant". Christ's death on the cross marks the beginning of what Biblical book of Hebrews calls the "New Covenant". The old covenant included an earthly sanctuary, animal sacrifices, men selected to officiate in that earthly sanctuary, (the Aaronic priesthood). The old covenant was ratified by the blood of animals. The old covenant was the promise, the new covenant the fulfilling and reality of those promises. Both are part of God's unchanging everlasting covenant. The new covenant did not change the means of salvation nor the definition of sin. The Old Covenant pointed forward to the cross and a coming Savior, and people looked by faith to cross. The New Covenant, ratified at the cross, is the reality as Jesus fulfills all the promises of the everlasting covenant. By His blood He ratifies the covenant and by His blood, sacrifice and life He saves all sinners who turn to Him for cleansing and salvation. The Old Covenant portion of the Everlasting Covenant | The New Covenant portion of the Everlasting Covenant | Adam and Eve fell into sin in Eden The promise is made, a Redeemer will come to crush the head of the serpent | Christ, the second Adam, the son of God and the Son of man, our Redeemer came and by His life and death won the victory over Satan, sin and death | | Animal Sacrifices, Lambs, pointing forward to the Lamb of God | The Lamb of God, Jesus Christ, died for our sins | | An earthly sanctuary | A better sanctuary, the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man. (Heb. 8:2) | | Sanctuary dedicated, ratified by the blood of animals | Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption, Heb.9:12 |
Earthly priests, who were themselves sinful and died and had to be replaced | Jesus, a far better priest, sinless who intercedes for us forever (Heb. 7:24,25)
| | Many animal sacrifices could only promise forgiveness, they could not of themselves take away sin | Jesus offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, once and for all. Heb 10:10,12) | | The old covenant could not take away sin | Jesus blood can cleanse us from ALL our sins! |
Revelation reveals to us Christ in the heavenly sanctuary and His full work in both phases of that ministry. It reveals the response taking place on earth. But points us back to heaven where our High Priest is ministering and will all the promises of the everlasting covenant to their final and complete victory. That's what the historicist interpretation does -- it takes us through the whole Christian era as it relates to Christ working out the covenant in the heavenly sanctuary, from the time of His ascension to the time of the final restoration.
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#198833
06/16/25 03:42 PM
06/16/25 03:42 PM
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OP
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Christ's ministry in Revelation
1. The cross, the new covenant is ratified! "The first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, Rev. 1:5 "he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. Rev. 1:18
All through the book we see God's saints are cleansed by the "blood of the Lamb", that was slain at Calvary and now liveth to intercede (do the work of the true High Priest) for us.
2. The true sanctuary, in heaven, is opened Rev. 4 and 5, the critical moment has arrived, the book of the covenant rests in God the Father's hands but it is sealed and no one can open it. Who is worthy to fulfil all that is within that book? The Lamb that was slain, He alone is worthy to be our Priest and fulfill all that is within that covenant. The heavenly sanctuary is dedicated because Jesus, the slain Lamb and now is declared worthy to take the book and open it. The covenant has been ratified, the condition for mankinds salvation fulfilled, the sanctuary is opened.
3. Jesus first work as Priest. He is pictured, wearing a priestly garment, standing among the candlesticks representing the churches. The Pentecostal outpouring of the Holy Spirit signified, according to Acts 2:33 that Jesus has taken His position and is declared worthy to carry out the work as our High Priest and Savior in the heavenly sanctuary.
4. Christ is with His churches in Rev. 2 and 3. Though the churches have their problems, Christ is with them, both advising and warning but also encouraging them with wonderful promises. There will be people who overcome through Christ and their faith in Him, from every age of the church.
5. The Seals tend to draw a dark picture of Christianity on earth. In the end, John sees thousands of people running and begging for rocks to fall upon them and he, in desperation exclaims -- "Who shall be able to stand". Will anyone be saved? But God shows him first, His long suffering, allowing time to go on a little longer, not wanting any to perish but that they come to repentance. And then John sees a vast multitude of people from every nation and time who have "washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb" and will rejoice in Christ's eternal kingdom. Christ's sacrifice is not in vain!!!!
6. The sanctuary setting is once again fully outlined before the trumpets are shown to John. Christ's ministry runs parallel with the trumpets. In Rev. 8:2-5 is outlined Christ's overarching ministry for as long as He is in the heavenly sanctuary during the entire Christian era. We need to remember, no matter what is going on here on earth, in heaven Christ is ministering for our salvation, and we must not lose our hope when we see the populations are not focused on Christ and things on earth are getting bad.
First, in Rev. 8, we see Christ in the holy place by the altar of incense. Mixing His merits (smoke of incense) with the prayers of the saints. The time comes when He takes the hot coals from the altar and puts them into the golden censor (something every high priest did every time before they could enter the Most Holy Place--see Leviticus 16:12-13 ) So Christ enters His finishing work in the Most Holy (presenting before the Father and millions of angels, the names of all who overcome through faith in Him and His cleansing blood) (See also Rev. 3:5, Rev. 12:11) When Christ leaves the sanctuary and throws down the censor, probation closes and there is thunder and lightening (we see the seventh trumpet ENDING with the same scene of thunder and lightning
7. Rev. 12 recaps the whole Great Controversy from the war in heaven, where Satan rebelled, to Christ's victory on the cross, followed by Satan's pursuit of the woman (Christ's faithful followers) and their ability to resist the dragon, through the blood of Christ and their testimony concerning Christ. But Satan doesn't give up, rather he intensifies his agenda to take down all humans. It isn't till later chapters that we see him fully defeated, and Christ and His saved in heaven and finally the earth is made new.
How do the trumpets fit in? They too span time from the disciple John's day clear to restoration.
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#198851
06/26/25 01:16 AM
06/26/25 01:16 AM
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OP
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As we noted in the last posts, Christ's work in the heavenly sanctuary is outlined in Revelation, from His victory at the cross, to His inauguration as Priest to fulfil all the Covenant promises and stipulations, to His work of intercession in the Holy Place by the Altar of Incense, and moving into the Most Holy Place with the Golden censor filled with burning incense, where the ark of the covenant is seen, for final work of of judgment and atonement before probation closes, and on to the close of probation and final restoration.
How do the trumpets fit in? They too span time from the disciple John's day clear to restoration and place it in the context of the Great Controversy.
A parallel to help us understand can be seen in 1. The battle against Jericho 2. The the seven new moon festivals in ancient Israel
NEW MOON festivals in Israel
New moon festivals marked the beginning of a new month. Certain elders were responsible to watch at the end of each month for the first visible appearance of the new moon. As soon as the first sliver was seen, the fact was announced throughout the whole country by signal fires on the mountaintops and the blowing of trumpets. The Hebrew word for ?month? (hodesh) literally means ?new moon? or month,
In Numbers 10:10, God commands Moses to blow the trumpets on the New Moon Festival as a memorial sacrifice, a regular burnt offering, and a fellowship offering. Ps. 81:3 Blow up the trumpet in the new moon, in the time appointed, on our solemn feast day. "Hodesh" tends to be associated with "new beginning" and renewal. An interesting fact is the Biblical record of a Benjaminite who had serious family problems, going to Moab and marrying a woman named Hodesh, and having seven sons (1 Chr. 8:8,9) Giving us a glimpse into the broader themes of struggle, hope and renewal.
Interestingly as well, there are seven "new moons' from the Passover month and the Day of Atonement. In the seventh month, as it begins the festival is more urgent, it is called "the day of trumpets". In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation. Ye shall do no servile work therein; but ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord." Lev. 23:24. It was the warning that in ten days there would be the day of Atonement. Those ten days were to be spent in preparing their hearts and minds for the day of atonement.
Each of the six months had their trumpets sounding, calling for recommitment and renewal, but in the seventh month the trumpets gave a "loud" sound. Time was running out, the day of atonement was almost upon them.
JERICHO
Read the story in Joshua chapter six. Seven priests were given seven trumpets. Each day, for six days Israel's army, followed by the seven priests with trumpets, who were followed by the rest of Israel, marched once around Jericho, all the while the priests blowing their trumpets. But on those six days the people were silent, they marched around once and went back to their tents and nothing more happened.
On day seven, they silently marched around Jericho seven times in the same manner. But as they finish the seventh lap, then Moses gave the command for them to shout and there was great noise of shouting and trumpets and the walls came tumbling down.
LESSONS LEARNED
1.There is a count down from the ratification of the covenant (Passover month or first New Moon blowing of the trumpet showing the covenant is ratified) to the seventh or last "day of trumpets" just before the day of atonement.
2, Just before all the cities of the world come tumbling down there is a "loud cry".
3. Though the gospel story is known in the world, yet the world stands as a fortified city against the gospel and it's truths. The historic trumpets coming in sequential warnings over the Christian era are all alerts that the day of judgment is coming.
4. The people of God, like the Israelites of old, need strong faith to believe the battle is the Lord's and to keep marching under the covenant of God, throughout all those generations, believing He will win in the end.
5. Near the end of the seventh trumpet there will be all the trumpets sounding. All the former powers working against God will be exercising their deceptive arts, and much more.
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#198852
06/26/25 02:02 AM
06/26/25 02:02 AM
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OP
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Each trumpet was a wake up call. A call to turn and follow God and truth. They also depicted what happens when a people turn their backs on God's truth and righteousness and seek after their own righteousenss. Each trumpet offers renewal for those who leave the false path and follow Jesus. It is also a strong warning that life outside of Christ is not the liberty and freedom it's made out to be. There are serious consequences. A day will come when probation closes and there is no more time to change the direction of our lives. The trumpets in their historicist setting give us a build up of what the grand deceptions look like. Each has it's place in history. But history also shapes the future. 1, Jerusalem as a nation set themselves up against God's covenant as it was in Jesus. Jesus came to His own people. Everything in their economy pointed to Jesus as their Messiah, but as a nation they rejected Him. The first trumpet shows those who had much light and much privileges and should have known Christ, were the first examples of the fate of those fighting against the truth and the Redeemer. Isaiah 9:2 The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined. 9:13 But the people turned not unto him ..., neither do they seek the LORD of hosts. 9:14 Therefore the LORD will cut off from Israel head and tail, branch and rush, in one day. 9:5 with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; this shall be with burning and fuel of fire. Revelation 8:7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up. In the last days, the Jewish people will be involved, it's all being set up as we speak, they are still expecting the Messiah to come and establish a forced rule upon earth in which they, as a nation, will be exalted. Remember that trumpet from history, and don't be surprised if you see a Messiah appear there in supernatural glory, attempting the setting up a rulership over the present world. The real Jesus will never force anyone to be a citizen of His righteous kingdom. 2. A super world power united with Christianity and began enforcing doctrine, but lacked the heart, saving relationship with Christ. Remember that trumpet from history, and don't be surprised if you see another Constantine like figure or group of people, leaders of super world powers uniting with Christianity to impose doctrines and practices. Remember Rome fell like a great burning mountain into the sea of humanity causing great upheaval. (mountains are symbolic of powerful nations (Jer. 51:24-25) Rome had linked hands with Christianity but though Christianity was the state religion, the state was not very Christian. This will all be repeated -- a superpower to force the world to worship the beast and his image. But remember in God's covenant God promises to write His law upon our hearts and minds, He promises to change us into people who love and live righteousness. But superpowers used to force worship and their version of righteousness will fall. 8:8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; 3. Poisoned water -- the poisoning of the living water of life (truth of scripture) to this day makes finding truth a challenge. With the skill of a deceptress hand the Bible can be made to seemingly teach many things that those who study with prayer and the Holy Spirit will see as inconsistent with the context of the whole Bible story of redemption. Those truths removed or changed in the early years of the papacy are still largely accepted today. (Sunday sacredness, state of the dead) None have gone away. 4. Poisoned water -- leads to darkness. It led to darkness in the middle ages, it will in the last days as well. An age of darkness isn't necessarily an age of lack of knowledge in the more general sense. There can be brilliant inventions, but the darkness the world sinks in, is a darkness devoid of the light of truth, righteousness and trust in Christ's transforming power. Each trumpet was a wake up call. A call to turn and follow God and truth. Each trumpet offers renewal if we leave the false path and follow Jesus. 5th trumpet Eastern Byzantine Empire is having problems especially when the fourth crusade conquers their capital city, Constantinople, in 1204 AD, and set up their own form of government, leaving the empire in confusion and weak. 1261 Constantinople was recaptured and restored as the Byzantine capital. During that time period the Mongols were conquering much territory in the mid eastern countries but they didn't go after Constantinople, so the city was able to rebuild and grow stronger. Meanwhile the Ottomans were beginning to gather strength as well. Basically, God gave the Byzantine Empire another 150 years to repent and come back to the truth. Byzantine was Christian, but in many respects had followed Roman in their departure of truth. They didn't repent and at the end of the 5th trumpet they were conquered by the Ottomans. Muslims and Christians will be active players in the endtime game as well. God sends diversions in the form of Muslim armies, But God also sends the early reformers. The opposition may seem intense but God is still there enabling, offering repentance and forgiveness, But many don't accept His gifts and continue in their rebellion against God.
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#198854
06/26/25 01:21 PM
06/26/25 01:21 PM
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OP
Global Moderator Supporting Member 2024
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The seventh trumpet -- During it's sounding the Great Controversy will be ended.
Just like the seventh month of ancient Israel's pattern of festivals pointed out the events and sequence of Christ's redemptive work, from His sacrifice, in the first month, His pouring our of the Holy Spirit upon the churches, and onward till the seventh month marking the end events of the Great Controversy with the final day of atonement and joyous feast of tabernacles when the people rejoice their wilderness journey is ended. In like manner the seventh trumpet includes each of the following:
1. The New Moon trumpet (which sounded at the beginning of each of the seven months, now on the first day of the seventh month sounds with greater sound, alerting the day of atonement is at hand. This is the last call to repentance. And so Millerites and fellow believers proclaimed the message "The hour of God's judgement is at hand", sounding a loud cry to wake up the nations.
2. It includes the day of atonement, when the high priest takes burning coals from the altar, places them in the golden censor to enter the Most Holy Place for the judgment work of cleansing. All who have their sins confessed and repented are cleansed and accounted part of God's people, cleansed by the sacrificial blood, while those who refused to search their hearts and confess and repent are "cut off" cast out from among God's people. This is the investigative judgement when Christ presents the names of the overcomes before the Father and His angels, their names are permanently standing in the book of life, but those who clung to sin and only professed to be Christ's but held on to the world and it's sins, are removed from the book of life.
3. It includes the high priest leaving the temple as the work of atonement is done and casting down the censor, probation is closed, the Azazel, the one who led the world into sin, along with all who still carry their unconfessed, unrepented sins upon their own heads, are sent out, cut off, separated forever from God's grace and life. 4. It includes the final destruction of all sin.
5. It ends with eternal newness of life, joy and peace, the new heaven and earth, where sin and death no longer exist. Christ reigns, and God's people dwell forever with Him.
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#198896
07/08/25 05:16 AM
07/08/25 05:16 AM
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OP
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Some questions from the internet on the historicist interpretation of the trumpets:: If the major event of Christ entering the final phase of His ministration in 1844 was misinterpreted as His Second Coming, should we not reconsider the interpretation of the Seven Trumpets also? We could ask a similar question -- if the major event of Christ's atoning death upon the cross in 31 AD was misinterpreted as the time He was to set up an earthly kingdom and exalt the nation of Israel, should we not reconsider the interpretation of the Seventy weeks of Daniel 9 also? Actually there are other Christians that think that way as well, but that kind of reasoning is rather problematic. What that reasoning does is cast doubt on the time prophesies that lead up to an event, because they misunderstood what that event would look like at the end of the time prophecy. As one Millerite wrote: "Those who believed that the prophetic calculations of time was right, and had really passed, now turned their attention to the examination of their position. It soon became apparent that the mistake was not in the time, but in the event to take place at the end of the period." "It was not in their understanding of the sequence and dates in the prophecies that caused the disappointment, they found these to be sound, the mistake was in thinking: "Unto 2300 days, then shall the Sanctuary be cleansed." Dan.viii,13,14, was understood as though it read, Unto 2300 days, then Christ will come and raise the dead and change the living saints, etc. Here is the secret of our disappointment. We did not then understand the Sanctuary, and its cleansing, as we now may. The time was right." " the major event of Christ entering the final phase of His ministration in 1844 " is announced by the seventh trumpet which began to sound in 1844 and goes through to the end. There we see the opening of another door in heaven that reveals the ARK of the testament. This points to 1844 when people realized Christ entered the Most Holy Phase of His priestly work. It is during the time of the seventh trumpet that the mystery of God (how God can take a sinner and transform them) which is Christ's work of redeeming people, will be finished. The last work needed for that Redemption will be completed. Notice that it is at the end of the seventh trumpet that there "were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail. " (11:19) At the end of the seventh trumpet this occurs signaling the time of throwing down the censor doesn't happen until the seventh trumpet. (8:5) cast [it] into the earth: and there were voices, and thundering, and lightnings, and an earthquake. The other six happen BEFORE the seventh trumpet, the first sounding while the prophet John was still alive. Here's another popular one: The seven angels with the trumpets are the same seven angels that pour out the seven plagues It's not till the censor is cast to the earth and the Heavenly High Priest has finished His intercession that trumpets blow and vials of plagues are poured out . The trumpets are not the same as the plagues. True there are some similarities, but there are also major differences. The bowl judgements/plagues are described as a new vision: Revelation 15:1 I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign. Doesn't say it's the same angels or the same mission . The reason the trumpets sound, is to urge people to REPENTANCE! There is still mercy. . During the vials "the wrath is fulfilled" meaning the "cup of iniquity" is full, there is only wrath left for them. The trumpet judgments don't affect the whole earth, it's usually 1/3. It's progressive giving warnings and time to repent and turn. The vial/plagues don't just affect 1/3, they affect the earth, it's universal. There is no more chance for "renewal". While the trumpets may resemble "plagues" and be quite grievous, they are not the "last plagues", the seven plagues just prior to the Second Advent are the last plagues, in fact implying that there were other, previous plagues.. | SEVEN TRUMPETS | SEVEN PLAGUES | Highly Symbolic | Largely literal | Restricted, not universal, 1/3 | Universal -World wide | 1st Trumpet suggests destruction by fire, hail, blood, of symbolic grass, trees, -- people and their leaders | 1st Plague talks of physical sores, a health issue | 2nd trumpet speaks of symbolic burning mountain (great nation) falling into the symbolic sea (of mankind) a third turns to blood and dies, a third of ships get destroyed, sounds like the fall of a nation resulting in lose of life and power | Second plague, (literal) sea turns to blood and ALL in the sea die | | 3rd trumpet, a symbolic star falls (stars= church leaders Rev. 1:20) turns symbolic water into bitter wormwood, its bitterness causing many deaths. | 3rd plague, all fresh water turns to blood | 4th Trumpet, symbolic darkness strikes 1/3 of sun, 1/3 of moon, 1/3 stars, 1/3 of day, 1/3 of night | 4th plague, the sun gets seven times hotter, scorching people | | 5th trumpet, star falls, lots of smoke darkens sky, lots of symbolic locusts torturing people like scorpions, they look like warhorses, they have a king, and torment for five months. | 5th plague, the beast's center of power gets plunged into darkness, people's sores are terrible painful, they bit their tongues in pain. | | 6th trumpet, Four messengers are released from the river Euphrates for 391 years, this results in destruction of 1/3 of people, Christ is still in the Holy Place at the altar of incense. A huge army of fire breathing horses goes forth, their power in their mouths and tails. | Sixth plague, Euphrates dries up, evil spirits (demons) from dragon, beast and false prophet work to unit world against God | | 7th trumpet, time to judge the dead, the Most Holy Place with the ark of covenant is seen, Christ takes power to reign, thunder, lightning, great earthquake, voices, the kingdom becomes kingdom of our Lord and His Christ. | 7th plague, Voice "It is Done" most terrible earthquake, cities collapse, mountains and islands disappear, huge hailstones, (second coming) | | 7th trumpet takes us from investigative judgment to the end of millennium | 7th plague takes us to the second coming | |
These differences, among others, show that the trumpets and the plagues are separate and distinct. Their similarities show they both deal with the Great Controversy theme which is all about Satan's attempts to lead people away from God, BUT more importantly of God's work to save as many people as possible. Christ is in the heavenly sanctuary, by the altar of incense, lifting the prayers, mixed with His merits before God, during the time those trumpets are sounding. He is working to save. It's not till the seventh trumpet that we see the Most Holy Place, and the signal He will soon leave the Most Holy Place when the thunder and lightning of the cast down censor begin. In the last trumpet, Christ moves to the most Holy Place for the final work, which ends with the second coming and the final restoration -- The thought that the trumpets " must all happen at the End of the Age" after the censor is thrown down, falls apart when you consider that 1) There really is no purpose for trumpets to sound calling people to repentance after the censor is thrown down and the unjust remain unjust, there is no more intermediator. 2) We need to look beyond, and remember all who have ever lived will stand before the White Throne Judgement after the millennium. The unsaved dead will be resurrected. (Rev. 20) and they too will face the fact that they are lost. Those who place the trumpets after the censor is thrown down, seem to be saying these multitudes of people didn't need trumpet warnings of a last judgment. 3) The biggest problem is that placing the trumpets in the future, erases their examples of the deceptions that caused judgments to come. The "examples" are pushed aside, and the reader is left to create his own ideas of what these deceptions will be. It's basically stripping away the foundation. The seven trumpets are judgement illustrated over the course of the Christian era. They expose deceptions to avoid, they still urge repentance, they gave historical timelines of second chances if people repent, showing God's mercy and longsuffering. They were limited in scope.. Yes, they are warnings of the plagues and final destruction, but they are not the LAST plagues, nor final destruction. It's the plagues that come when the censor is cast down, the trumpets show those plagues happen sometime during the seventh trumpet when the thunders, and lightning roll (the seven plagues are not the seven trumpets). Though each trumpet represents certain aspects in the past -- the deceptions and pitfalls that have plagued God's people and sought to pull them out of God's care have not gone away, but rather strengthened and come to full maturity Those who forget the past tend fall in the same traps.
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#198913
07/13/25 08:50 PM
07/13/25 08:50 PM
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OP
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The message given the Adventist church is a PROPHETIC messages based on the Historicist method of interpretation of Daniel and Revelation. To deny the historicist method basically undermines much of our doctrines, and though we find Adventist's who reject much of the historical method still trying to uphold our doctrines, yet, once the historicist method of interpretation is cast out, these doctrines rest very heavily on Ellen White and NOT on their newly "reconsidered" futuristic interpretations.
The two phase sanctuary message almost completely disappears from Revelation in the futurist treatment. And if one rejects the historicist approach in Daniel as well, it also disappears there. Some will try to make ALL sanctuary pictures in Revelation refer to the investigative judgment, thinking that proves the sanctuary doctrine better than the old historicist method. But no, it makes the two phase ministry in the sanctuary of no effect. When we run into people who disregard the sanctuary doctrine altogether, we find one of their first attacks upon it is insisting there is no "two phase" work.
Our pioneers had the right method of interpretation. The historicist method. Did they have all the details -- no, they saw the trumpets as historical events rather disconnected with the overall Great Controversy theme.. When Adventism faced a real crises in the 1970's -80's God raised men who thoroughly studied these prophecies, in the framework of historicism, and I believe they were led by God. They did NOT depart from the historicist method of looking at the prophecy. They did not come up with something new and strange that totally threw off much of what what Adventists believed, no, , they took many cues from the pioneers writings, and by holding strictly to the proven pattern, found additional understanding. The pioneers were not wrong in seeing the trumpets sounding against both western Rome and eastern orthodox Byzantine Empire, but that was not all those trumpets were proclaiming, there was much more to the puzzle, and they found the special meaning that fits with prophetic picture.
The trumpets are not "isolated" "scattered" "moments of little importance to understanding the Great Controversy. They depict issues that developed, became prominent, and their reaped results over quite a bit of time. They present a unified message urging people to turn from the destroying factor of sin and to seek the Savior. Each trumpet has part of that unified message. Each trumpet covers a period of time when earth was experiencing a critical issue during the time that message was being developed and illustrated, so all would recognize the deceitfulness of satan's strategies, and the source to counter it.
Remember even though each of those trumpets were VERY relevant to the period of time which was the focus of conditions in the world. Their messages are by no means limited to their time any more than the messages to the seven churches (each focused on a period of the churches life) are not limited to that time. John was writing this prophetic book in the first century of Christian history. Every single person from the time of the cross to the final restoration of all things were to be made aware of God's covenant through Jesus Christ, and that all MUST meet the climactic event when they realize they have passed the point of no return. As horrible as disasters, wars, and persecution are, the worst, hopeless point is realizing when there is no more point of return, one is lost, shut out from life, love, hope, joy and peace forever. They could have had life and joy, but they had thrown it all away and turned their backs on the only ONE who could (and wanted very much) to save them.
John 5:28,29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. Rev. 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. And Paul confirms: Romans 4:10.12 for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ...So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
Those trumpets were sounding all through Christian history calling people to make the right choice for Christ, amidst so much departure from truth.
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#198914
07/13/25 09:54 PM
07/13/25 09:54 PM
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OP
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Indeed the Trumpets are NOT just some isolated scattered moments. They give warnings to all, with messages to all generations. Especially that first trumpet! It is absolutely key to the WHOLE salvation story, God's covenant to save all He possibly can save, and to realize this earth is on fast track to destruction. Consider the historicist interpretation dealing with Jerusalem:Revelation 8:7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up. Green grassGrass can be a symbol of the fragility of human life, but it says it's GREEN Grass -- Green grass is also symbolic of rest and peace from God, as implied in Psalm 23:2, where the Bible implies that God will "make us lie down in green pastures". Green pastures of rest and peace. Jerusalem -- the very name means peace and rest. It was God's higher plan for Jerusalem to be the center of peace, a place where people could find the rest and peace only God can give . But when they rejected the "Prince of Peace" all their peace was burned up. Luke 19:41 And when Jesus drew near to Jerusalem he beheld the city, and wept over it, 19:42 Saying, If you would have known, even you, at least in this your day, the things which would have brought you peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes. 19:43 For the days shall come upon you, when your enemies shall cast a trench about you, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, 19:44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because you knew not the time of thy visitation.To me this historical event is a warning -- A third of the trees (the leaders) were burnt up The green grass was ALL burnt up Their peace was gone. God's chosen people lost their peace and their city of peace, because they rejected the "Prince of Peace". The message is: come to Jesus, accept Him as Lord and Savior. Look to Him for He is life, He is everything we need to have life, hope and peace, not just now, but for all eternity. Surrender yourself to Him, accept Him, follow Him, trust Him, make Him Lord of your life! The world as we know it, is heading for destruction, and no one can escape that destruction EXCEPT through Jesus who came for just that purpose -- to seek and save sinners. If only they will accept Him, accept Him as LORD and Savior and follow Him. Jerusalem (the old Jerusalem) is not the city of peace, it's peace is gone, burnt up, and any supernatural being manifesting itself there is NOT the real Jesus. Why is there no peace there -- why will there never be any peace in old Jerusalem? There is no peace without Jesus. I don't understand why people reject or don't see this First Trumpet Warning for it's the very foundational warning concerning judgment. Another writer puts it better than I can: The Saviour's prophecy concerning the visitation of judgments upon Jerusalem is to have another fulfillment, of which that terrible desolation was but a faint shadow. In the fate of the chosen city we may behold the doom of a world that has rejected God's mercy and trampled upon his law. Dark are the records of human misery that earth has witnessed during its long centuries of crime. The heart sickens and the mind grows faint in contemplation. Terrible have been the results of rejecting the authority of Heaven.[GC 37] The fall of Jerusalem is the most profound example of both Christ's great love (read the gospel of John and hear the very words of Jesus calling the people to come to Him for LIFE and salvation). The final years of witnessing, and the withdrawal of the Holy Spirit, rejected, ceasing to plead with those who reject Christ. Before the armies even came, people, no longer guided by the Holy Spirit were doing terrible things. Yes, Satan, let loose is a terrible, terrible thing. When God's presence was finally withdrawn from the Jewish nation, priests and people knew it not. Though under the control of Satan, and swayed by the most horrible and malignant passions, they still regarded themselves as the chosen of God....The forms of religion will be continued by a people from whom the Spirit of God has been finally withdrawn; and the Satanic zeal with which the prince of evil will inspire them for the accomplishment of his malignant designs, will bear the semblance of zeal for God. {GC88 615} It was horrendous, even before the armies ended it. But ... all who were following Christ in trust and obedience were saved from that destruction. That first trumpet is not some isolated scattered event. It is a loud and a full depiction of the tremendous danger of following Satan's lures, and neglecting the only protection, the only source of LIFE available to mankind through Jesus Christ, the ONE by which we must be saved, there is salvation in no other. (Acts 4:12) Yes, the 1st trumpet was (limited in the area affected) in the end the whole earth will be involved. All the trumpets were limited in their area ,(though they process and enlarge in the area they cover with each trumpet) which actually proves their historicist role -- The seventh trumpet also begins at a certain point in earth's history, 1844 when judgment begins in the courts of heaven. And it (the seventh trumpet), being the last, covers ALL the judgment scenes in which books are involved. Beginning with the heavenly court scene," ( the time of the dead, that they should be judged) it takes the reader to the second coming, when Christ delivers His people and the earth is left in ruins, {with thunder and lightning and voices) and on to the third coming, a thousand years later, when ALL will appear before the white throne, followed by all traces of sin burned up. The mystery of salvation is completed, The kingdoms of this world become the kingdom of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. Then Christ is KING here on the earth which will be completely made new. Peace will be restored forever. That's when the mystery of salvation will be completely finished, the redeemed inherit the earth, and sin will never be again. The trumpets are not just to let us know there is a time of intense trouble ahead. The real purpose of those trumpets is to warn people that they desperately need a Savior, they need to turn to Jesus. He is the prince of Peace -- His New Jerusalem is the real city of peace. Like Abraham we follow Christ not looking for a literal earthly city but for, " a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God." Heb 11:10
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#198954
07/28/25 10:11 AM
07/28/25 10:11 AM
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OP
Global Moderator Supporting Member 2024
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The seventh trumpet and its relation to the Third Angel's Message.
Adventists profess to be proclaiming the Third Angel's Message, and calling people to come to Jesus to be sure to be registered in the book of life, that they may be delivered in that great day.
Those three angels' messages must now be sounded, with loud voice, to all the people of the whole world, calling them, by the power of the everlasting gospel, to the registry of their names in the Lamb's book of life. (He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. Rev. 3:5) We know from Rev. 20, that having our names in the Lamb's book of life, is the most important registry ever held. To have our names in that book means eternal life.
Sixth Trumpet ends, Seventh Trumpet begins: The sixth trumpet angel's time period ended August, 1840. The Scripture say, "The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly." Rev. 11:14. The second and third woe and the sixth and seventh trumpet are the same thing.
The seventh trumpet is described in scripture : "And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail." Rev. 11:18, 19.
MATCHING SEVENTH TRUMPET WITH THREE ANGEL'S MESSAGE Now let's compare what we read in the description of the seventh trumpet and see how it matches Rev. 14:6-20, with it's striking similarity with the threefold angel's messages and the consequences of rejecting that threefold message. The section on the last seven plague,16:1-21 are but an explanation in full of those mentioned by the 7th trumpet in Rev. 11:18, 19 which result as the consequences of rejecting the three angel's message.
So lets bring together the statements of Rev. 11:18, 19, and the corresponding ones of chapters 14 and 16. 1. "And thy wrath is come." Rev. 11:18. The third angel say's "If any man worship the beast and his image. . . . the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God." 14:9, 10. And in the seven last plagues the wrath of God is filled up. 15:1, 6-8; 16.
2. "The time of the dead, that they should be judged." Rev. 11:18. "I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven. . . . saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come." Rev.14:6, 7.
"And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament." Rev. 11:19. Why is this called the ark of his testament??It contains the "ten words" which are the basis of covenant. Ex. 34:28. "In the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee." Ex. 25:21. The covenant is all about rescuing mankind from the power of sin, and those commands are promises defining the character of the redeemed.
Now this temple of God in heaven is opened at the sounding of the seventh trumpet. There is shown the heavenly ark of his testament; and connected directly with this stands Rev. 14:12, the Third Angel's Message, saying, "Here are they that keep the commandments of God."
3. "That thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great." Rev. 11:18. This time of reward is at the coming of Christ; for he says: "Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." Rev, 22:12. and in Luke 14:14 we also read : "Thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just."
After the three angels have given their message, we immediately read "I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle." "And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped." Rev. 14:14, 16. This harvest is the end of the world." Matt. 13:39.
4. "And He will destroy them which destroy the earth." Rev. 11:18. Revelation 14 warns of this same destruction. "Another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great wine press of the wrath of God." Rev. 14:17-19.
5. The seventh trumpet includes two "harvests". 1. The Son of God, reaping the harvest of the earth, gathering the wheat into the garner of God. This is the harvest God's people are longing to part in. 2. The other is to gather together those who are to be cast into the wine press of the wrath of God. The first harvest are the fruits of the true Vine, Jesus Christ. All who abide in Christ, the true Vine, will be gathered by the angels into the kingdom of God, when he comes on the white cloud to reap the harvest of the earth. The others are called the clusters of the vine of the earth. Those have no connection with the heavenly Vine, but are of the earth, earthy. And when the clusters of this vine are gathered, it is only to be cast into the wine press of the wrath of God.
6. "And there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail." Rev. 11:19. This matches the seventh plague. We read in Rev. 16 -- "The seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. . . . And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great."
But the seven last plagues comprise the wrath of God, when they fall -- it is too late to change. This wrath is poured upon those who worship the Beast and his Image, upon those who refuse to keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, who are fighting against God and against God's people.
It's obvious the Third Angel's Message is to warn people against being drawn away from their Creator and Savior, into that worship that has set itself up against God's rule. The three angels messages sounding with the seventh trumpet urgently call people to worship the Creator, that they may escape this wrath; and it calls them especially to "keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus."
This shows the seventh trumpet begins before the coming of the Lord. The three angel's messages are part of the seventh trumpet. These three messages of Revelation 14, must be preached before the wrath which is foretold takes place. The seventh trumpet angel sounds the warning with the last urgent message to the world of Rev. 14.. . It is therefore absolutely certain that in the days of the voice of the seventh trumpet angel, not only does it proclaim the end of earth as we know it, but when he shall begin to sound, the Third Angel's Message of Revelation 14 must be preached to the world before the final end.
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#198955
07/29/25 04:11 AM
07/29/25 04:11 AM
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OP
Global Moderator Supporting Member 2024
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The Third Angel's Message is very much part of the Seventh Trumpet
SAID the angel: "In the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God shall be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets." Rev. 10:7. This is speaking of the seventh trumpet angel.
But what is the "MYSTERY OF GOD"?
No, it's not that the world is heading to sure destruction, that is not a mystery, it's the sure result of sin. The Mystery of God is that He can take sinful human beings trapped in the destructive nature of sin and transform them into willing, joyful, loyal and loving citizens of God's kingdom! The Mystery of God is the GOSPEL. This Mystery will reach it's glorious climax when the redeemed receive immortality and enter the glorious kingdom of God forever!
The Mystery Ordained before Creation 1 Corinthians 2:7 The hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory. Ephesians 3:8-11, 17-19 grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; and to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: to the intent that now. . . might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, according to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord. . . . That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; and to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fullness of God."
Made Known by Revelation Eph. 3:3 Paul says, "By revelation he made known unto me the mystery." And in Galatians 1:11, 12, he says, "The gospel which was preached of me is not after man... but by the revelation of Jesus Christ." The gospel came by revelation, and was made known. "The mystery of Christ, which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel."
Gospel preaching is making known the Mystery of God to the people. Eph. 6:19 Paul calls preaching the making known of the mystery of the gospel, saying: "Praying. . . for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel, for which I am an ambassador in bonds." Col. 4:3 "Withal praying also for us, that God would open unto us a door of utterance, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in bonds."
The gospel "is the power of God unto salvation
The mystery of God shall be finished "In the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God shall be finished. The last work of cleansing from sin was typified in the earthly sanctuary on the day of atonement. So too, in the days (years) of the seventh trumpet, Christ enters the Most Holy phase of His ministry before the ark of the testament, in preparation of bringing home His redeemed.
This also is called the cleansing of, not the earthly, but the heavenly sanctuary. (see Heb. 9:23) As the cleansing of the earthly sanctuary was the last work for that year in behalf of that people back then, so the cleansing of the heavenly sanctuary will be the last work forever in behalf of all people in the end of time. The day of atonement was a of heart searching, being sure sins were forgiven and forsaken, so the three angel's are urging people to leave the entanglements and counterfeits of the world, and send them before hand to be dwelt with with the blood of the Lamb. . When Christ finishes the work in the Most Holy and comes forth, the world shall have reached the end of probationary time. The great gospel work of cleansing people from sin will be finished. And the declaration is made -- those who have been cleansed and made just and holy, will remain forever, just and holy. But those who are in the filth of sin and unrighteousness, will remain filthy and unrighteousness. Rev. 22:11
The gospel "the mystery of God" will have been "finished as he has declared to his servants the prophets."
This cleansing in the heavenly sanctuary began in A.D. 1844. The fact it has been going on for some 180 years doesn't mean we need to look for other explanations, it means we are at the very END, the world is ripe for harvest, very soon it must soon close. We are still living in the great day of atonement. Now the message is more urgent than ever, the time when it is urgent to put away all transgressions, to be a partaker of matchless mystery of the gospel, looking to the intercession of Christ, wash our robes, and make them white in the blood of the Lamb. The seventh angel has been sounding; soon the mystery of God will be finished, the work of the gospel will be closed,
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#199000
08/17/25 06:59 AM
08/17/25 06:59 AM
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OP
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The seven trumpets in Revelation 8-11, show that God has intervened on behalf of His oppressed people and has judged those who harmed them throughout the whole Christian era. The purpose of the seven trumpets is to assure God?s people that Christ, our High Priest and Savior is involved and active continuously, and we can depend on Him to bring the whole covenant plan to it's ultimate fulfilment.
Read Revelation 8:3-4 Compare this with the ceremony of the earthly tabernacle where the priest ministered inside the temple and offered incense on the golden altar in the Holy Place daily continually. (Exodus 30:7-8) Then, on the day of atonement the High Priest placed burning coals in the golden censor taking the smoking censor with Him into the Most Holy Place. (Lev. 16:12-13)
The incense represents the prayers of God's people (Rev. 5:8). Their prayers are heard and answered by God. Then near the end of the Christian era, Christ fills the censor and enters the Most Holy Place (during the seventh trumpet when the ark of the covenant is "seen")
Points: 1. The seven trumpets are God's judgments in response to the prayers of His oppressed people throughout the entire Christian era. 2. The trumpets sound after the death, resurrection and ascension into heaven, of Jesus as the Lamb, and run parallel with the time Christ ministers in the heavenly sanctuary, both in the Holy Place by the golden altar and in the Most Holy Place, to fulfill all the provisions and promises and judgments of the covenant. The trumpets run consecutively throughout history until the Second Coming and final restoration. 3. The censor is thrown down at the end of Christ's ministry in the Most Holy,, when the last trumpet has sounded and the thunder, lightening and voices are heard (Rev. 8:5 and 11:27)
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#199004
08/19/25 01:06 AM
08/19/25 01:06 AM
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OP
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The seven trumpets give us the reason we, as a church exist in the time we exist. Revelation 10:3 And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roars; and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices. Revelation chapter 10 is located between the sixth and seventh trumpet. The sixth trumpet has taken us to the end of time prophecies. The seventh trumpet belongs to "the time of the end". Spanning the time when the last work of Christ in the heavenly sanctuary takes place and mystery of salvation is being completed. SEVEN THUNDERS Endless speculation has occurred about what the seven thunders might be. Ellen White connects them to the three angel's messages of Rev. 14.. John heard the mysteries which the thunders uttered, but he was commanded not to write them. The special light given to John which was expressed in the seven thunders was a delineation of events which would transpire under the first and second angels' messages. It was not best for the people to know these things, for their faith must necessarily be tested. In the order of God, most wonderful and advanced truths would be proclaimed. The first and second angels' messages were to be proclaimed, but no further light was to be revealed before these messages had done their specific work.. {1MR 99.3} Thunder thunder seems connected with God's commandment law and judgment. The law demands death for the transgressor. It is only by being covered by the blood of the Lamb that anyone can escape the wages the law demands of transgressors. In the Exodus Israel stood before the mountain of Sinai, where God Himself spoke His ten commandments. "Exodus 19:16 And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that [was] in the camp trembled. 19:19 And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder 20:1 And God spake all these words, .....(in the ten commandments) 20:18 And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw and heard, they retreated, and stood afar off. For them the thunderings and lightnings were very frightening. Why? " they realized as never before the offensive character of sin, and their own guilt in the sight of a holy God." In 1844 Christ entered the Most Holy Place to begin His last sanctuary ministry there, and the ark of the testimony was seen. (Rev. 11:19) "And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in His temple the ark of His testament" (Revelation 11:19). Beneath the mercy seat, within the ark, were the two tables of stone, containing the law of Jehovah. God's faithful ones saw the light that shone forth to them from the law, to be given to the world." The three angel's messages are all about God's law. The thunders are announcing to the world that God's law will be vindicated, the faithful followers of Jesus will be keeping God's law by faith and in the strength of One they are following. --Rev. 12:17 Satan's fierce enmity against God's law and those who keep it. --Rev. 14:9 Worship the one who created heaven and earth, the sea and fountains of water (Ex. 20:11 For [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it). --Rev/ 14:17 Here is the endurance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus. The three angel's messages are to go to the world -- leave Babylon, who has trodden underfoot God's law, especially the fourth commandment. How terrible will be the thunder and lightnings when when God reveals His law from the heavens. The law they so despised they were ready to kill everyone who worshipped God on His blessed and hallowed day. GC 638 Fierce lightnings leap from the heavens, enveloping the earth in a sheet of flame. Above the terrific roar of thunder, voices, mysterious and awful, declare the doom of the wicked. ... the clouds sweep back, and the starry heavens are seen, unspeakably glorious in contrast with the black and angry firmament on either side. The glory of the celestial city streams from the gates ajar. Then there appears against the sky a hand holding two tables of stone folded together. Says the prophet: "The heavens shall declare His righteousness: for God is judge Himself." Psalm 50:6. That holy law, God's righteousness, that amid thunder and flame was proclaimed from Sinai as the guide of life, is now revealed to men as the rule of judgment. The hand opens the tables, and there are seen the precepts of the Decalogue The seven thunders proclaim God's law, They announce the great need of lifting from obscurity the laws binding nature, its power. They point people to the only remedy to escape the penalty of disobedience (the forgiving and cleansing power of Christ's sacrifice) which includes transformation of character and keeping that law. They announce the "wages" for transgressors. They announce the coming judgment against the rejection of that law. They announce the awful results of rejection of Christ's power to cleanse and transform according to HIS standard. The 1844 movement was a "loud cry" - "The hour of His judgment has come! Worship the way God desires worship. Worship Him as our Creator, remember also the memorial. The beast has thought to change God's law. Counterfeit God's memorial of His creative power, and raise up images of worship. Don't follow the beast, don't be deceived. Hold fast to truth. A little group of believers from the Millerite movement prayerfully found the heavenly sanctuary message. They recognized the ark of the covenant within the Most Holy Place, with God's commandments foundational position. God raised this church to give the three angel's messages to the world. The last warning message to the world.
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#199039
09/02/25 12:47 AM
09/02/25 12:47 AM
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OP
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Revelation 10 and the Adventist Message Revelation 10 is situated between the sixth trumpet and the seventh trumpet. It points to time when the sixth trumpet is ending and the seventh is about to begin. A glorious heavenly Messenger is depicted; 10:2 And he had in his hand a little book open:People may argue over what this little book represents, but back about 200 years ago there was quite a firm understanding that it was the book of "Daniel". The French Revolution had happened, the papacy's political power had been hugely curtailed. People were studying the prophecies like they never remembered them being studied before. Before the French Revolution took place, Protestant Bible students (most Protestants based their prophetic studies on the historicist method) suggested a range of possibilities as to about when the 1260 year period started and ended. But with the rise of Napoleon and his new code of laws, and the exile of the pope by French general Berthier, there was, for a brief moment, agreement among Protestant scholars, that the 1260 years had ended. In 1798. All over we have reports of people opening their Bibles and studying the prophecies following 1798. The book of Daniel began to open up! What was actually sealed up in the book of Daniel" Interestingly, the Book of Daniel includes three texts where the sealing of at least a part of the book is mentioned, and each case the context refers to the end of time. 1. Daniel 12:4: ??Shut up the words, and seal the book, until the time of the end.??
2. Daniel 12:9: ??Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end.??
3. Daniel 8:26: ??Seal up the vision, for it pertains to many days hence.?? The time lines had been sealed -- until the time of the end. William Miller believed the little book in the Heavenly Messengers hands was the book of Daniel. He eagerly studied it's messages. Ellen White gave a clear -- The book that was sealed was not the book of Revelation, but that portion of the prophecy of Daniel which related to the last days. The Scripture says, "But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased" (Daniel 12:4). When the book was opened, the proclamation was made, "Time shall be no longer." (See Revelation 10:6.) The book of Daniel is now unsealed, {2 Selected Messages, page105} James White fully agreed writing in his "Life Sketches" pp 210-211: 1. The angel, in a most solemn manner, swore that there should be time no longer. This does not mean.. the angel declared that, time as measured by days, months and years, would cease; for the next verse speaks of the "days" of the voice of the seventh angel. 2. The angel holds in his hand, as he swears upon the subject of time, a little book open. It may be inferred from this language, that this book was at some time closed up. This was true of the book of Daniel. "But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book, even to the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased." Dan. 12,4 It was to be sealed only to the time of the end, when it was to be opened, knowledge of the subject of which it treats should be increased, and many run to and fro in the Scriptures and obtain knowledge upon the subject. If this open book in the hand of the angel represents the unsealed book of Daniel, how forcible the application of his solemn oath to the manner in which the close of prophetic time was proclaimed in 1844. "But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God shall be finished, as he had declared to his servants, the prophets." Verse 7. Why introduce the sounding of the seventh angel thus, unless his sounding commenced with the termination of the prophetic time? Revelation 10, verses 8 to 10, deals with the eating of the little book and its sweetness in the mouth and bitterness in the belly. Eating, in biblical symbolism, often represents internalizing as we see in John 6 in Jesus sermon on eating "Him"! Internalizing the gospel message, fully taking in God?s Word?making it a part of oneself. Those Millerites did make it part of themselves -- they believed! Jesus was coming very soon. The message was sweet, soon all the problems of this world would cease and heaven would be their home, heaven with Jesus! But bitterness followed. Not because Jesus isn't come soon -- He is coming soon! But there was still work to be done, both in heaven and on earth, just prior to that coming. The third angel's message (Rev. 14) needed to go forth.
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#199094
09/21/25 01:49 PM
09/21/25 01:49 PM
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OP
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Revelation chapter 10 and 11 are situated in time between the ending of the sixth trumpet and beginning of the seventh trumpet. They describe events that took place in 1790's (French Revolution, end of papal and kingly power) to 1844 (beginning of seventh trumpet). They mark the events that bring all the long timelines prophesized in Daniel to their end. (Rev. 10:6) They announce the beginning of the "time of the end". (Rev. 10:7) The beginning of Christ's last work in the heavenly sanctuary(Rev. 11:15-19). The seventh Trumpet covers the "time of the end" the "judgment" and final restoration. They announce that God's people will have thought they had preached their last message, but no, the seventh angel was to sound, and they had to prophesy again (Rev. 10:11) -- the time had come to proclaim the three angel's message to the world. (Rev. 14) The last urgent call to worship the Creator, for the hour of judgment was come, (Rev. 14:7)-- the heavenly court was seated, the books were opened and Jesus was brought to the Ancient of Days and now stands before that court (Dan. 7:10,13) naming the citizens of His soon to be established glorious kingdom, marking their permanent entry in the Book of Life, (Rev. 3:5)
During the seventh trumpet the truth of God's ark of the covenant in the Most Holy Place in heaven, is seen (Rev. 11:19) God's ten commandments are still under the mercy seat. The last battle against those who "keep God's commandments and have the testimony of Jesus" (Rev. 12:17) will rage.
But God delivers His people, the sky rolls back as a scroll (Rev. 6:14) and those commandments, now no longer under the mercy seat are revealed, and the blessing "Here is the patience of God's saints, here are they that keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus" is spoken. And all realize that indeed Jesus is KING of kings and Lord of lords. A day of wonder and rejoicing for God's people, but a day of reckoning, desperation and eternal lose and death, for those who resisted and fought against God's longsuffering, saving, cleansing love.
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#199145
10/20/25 04:32 PM
10/20/25 04:32 PM
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OP
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I began reading Cliff Goldstein's autobiography "An Adventist Journey" . Just read the first few chapters so far. Yet one thing stood out for me, in regard to the value of the historicist understanding of prophecy. Goldstein, in his youth, was a very secular (though Jewish) person, deeply interested in scientific information and atomic and subatomic, quantum fields, etc. etc. that defined his image of reality. Theology and stories about God and gods, all fell into an unrealistic heap of myths and legends not worthy of serious thought. What really challenged His world view, was not theology (not at first) but historicist interpretation of Biblical prophecy. For someone whose worldview rested totally on provable information, it was the historicist interpretation of Biblical prophecy that pried open his mind to a reality that there was a "God" who knew the future. There was a powerful intelligence above and beyond the material available for scientific and philosophical study. Just a short quote from pages 29-30. Think about it: I, in total ignorance of Adventists (in fact they hadn't told me what religion they were)...all sat in the health food store for my first Bible study. Daniel 2. ...We went through the king's dream, the death decree, all that, coming to the statue and then to the interpretation: Babylon, Media-Persia, Greece, Rome. I will never forget what followed...the breakup of Rome into the nations of modern Europe, reading the texts, "And as the toes of the feet were partly of iron and partly of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly iron and partly fragile. As you saw iron mixed with ceramic clay, they will mingle with the seed of men, but they will not adhere to one another, just as iron does not mix with clay (Dan,. 2:42-43) Having lived in Europe, having travelled in Europe, having studied European history, I was amazed at what I had just read. Some of these nations strong, some fragile? That's always been Europe. ..Mingle themselves with the seed of men? Europeans, from plebe to princes, have been intermarrying for centuries. And as far as not adhering to each other. Please! Between 1648-1789 for example, the European powers fought about 48 wars. Two World Wars in the 20th century alone. The 60th anniversary in 2017 of the European Union was cause of great celebration because it was the longest time in 2000 years that the nations of Europe were not spearing, javeling, bombing or gassing and shooting each other in mass, with the exceptions of the Balkans and now the Ukraine.... I looked up, tears in my eyes, and said to those in the health food store, "It's all true! It's all true!" Here in my hands was logical, rational, empirical evidence of God's existence and for His foreknowledge and sovereignty. And that is the beauty of the Historicist approach! It lays a firm foundation that God is real. He knows! His Word is true. The historicist interpretation takes us through events that have happened showing the battle between hosts of evil against the Host of the LORD. The prophecies don't stop in past history, historicism is a continuing story -- it continues on to the end of war, taking us on into the future with its map showing the methods and development of forces of the past to help us understand how these forces will executed the events of the future. Historicism verifies that God's prophesy is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#199146
10/21/25 05:27 PM
10/21/25 05:27 PM
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OP
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Scholars like to point out chiastic structures in the prophecies. Do Revelations "sevens" follow a chiastic structure? Maybe?
CHURCHES Deals with people's response to Christ.
A. Ephesus The first church embraces the full gospel message and with patience and perseverance labors for Christ. They began with fervent love in Christ, BUT they are loosing that love.
.....B. Smyrna The struggling church, faithfully clinging .....to Christ, but facing sever opposition.
.........C. Pergamos The rise of the papacy, and the .........call to hold fast and not deny Christ and His faith.
.............D. ThyatirTime of dominance of the papacy, ...............but her punishment is promised. Christ will win! ............... Hold fast.
.........C. Sardis The wounding of papacy. .........Reformers enlightened concerning God's grace. .........They work for Christ, but their work is not perfect. .........Promise overcomers will receive white robes.
.....B. Philadelphia The struggling church that loves .....the Lord, seeking truth, but facing opposition.
A. Laodicea The last church embraces message. It believes it has everything, but lacks fervent love in Christ and is urged to seek a relationship with Him. Those who open hearts door to Christ will have an everlasting close relationship with Him!!
THE SEALS Spreading and accepting the gospel message
A. The first seal embraces the gospel message and with power and conviction goes forth to bring it to the world.
.....B. The second seal is a struggling church, facing opposition .....The blood of the martyrs spreads the message.
.........C. The third seal, papacy arises. Truth is harder to .........find, people need to weigh information to find truth.
.............D. The fourth seal, dominance of the papacy ...............Gospel message seems obliterated, dead, trampled.
.........C. The fifth seal. Papacy is challenged, loosing power, yet .........fighting back. People receive gospel light of truth, and .........millions loose their lives sharing it. Cry for God to judge. .........Promise, He will judge, and give them white robes.
.....B. The sixth seal, the struggling church looking for Christ's ..... return amid mounting opposition, is promised that the .....armies seeking their destruction will run in terror to the ..... mountains to get away from Christ.
A. The last seal is silence. The message has done its work. God's people are sealed. The silence when He comes -- in which group will we find ourselves? Running away from Him, or rejoicing to meet Him in the air?
THE TRUMPETS The results of turning against Christ Trumpets are not about a single moment in time, but each cover a period of time.
A. The first trumpet concerns Jerusalem, a nation privileged above all nations. Holding the oracles of God, and having the Redeemer born into their race and dwelling physically among them. Their destruction an awful result of spurning His grace and seeking to destroy His messengers. It parallels with the last trumpet as the fall of Jerusalem is is an example of the fall of the whole world.
..... B. The second trumpet focuses on a "mountain" or .....powerful empire which first sought to suppress Christianity, .....then seemed to accept it, but persecution did not end, .....by uniting church and state it actually increased it. .....That empire, once the first republic, crashed into the sea .....of humanity casing intense upheaval.
.........C. The third trumpet warns of a system arising .........that would pollute the living water of the gospel. .........Turn it into bitter wormwood.
..............D. The fourth trumpet, reveals the papal dominance ...............which brings darkness as the Gospel message ...............seems obliterated, eclipsed.
.........C. The fifth trumpet. Byzantine Empire separated from .........the Papacy. Crusaders attacked and plundered them, .........but Byzantine was restored to power, and given 150 ......... years more of grace to separate fully from Papal error .........and seek Christ and be a witness of God's water of life, .........instead of the "wormwood". God could have saved them ......... from the Turks, had they turned to Him. But they didn't. .........Thus, like Jerusalem, their capital city was destroyed and .........they were scattered.
.....B. The sixth trumpet, is an explosion of information ..... world wide. The accumulated wisdom in the east released .....The Turks aggressive expansion helps Protestantism. .....Development of Colonialism, world travel. Much war. During .....this time church and state was dismantled. .....Both diabolic theories as well as truth were freed to develop. .....The last day powerful republic emerges. .....Power shifted from east to the west.
A. The last trumpet announces the endtime. God raises up a church giving it the sanctuary and endtime message, the gospel message, the pre-Advent message of the investigative judgment, pointing us back to the "day of atonement", there's the judgment of the dead, as well as living, an urgent message (the three angel's message) of repentance and turning back to the Creator in faith and obedience. Nations angry. Truth will be revealed (though many reject it) the thunder and lightening will take place, final justice is executed and Christ will reign.
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#199216
11/13/25 01:20 PM
11/13/25 01:20 PM
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OP
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Seen in chiastic structures the seven churches, seals and trumpets all follow a similar pattern. They begin with the bright glory of the first advent of Christ! Then they descend into many centuries of gray darkness. The bright glory of the first advent being covered and reaching it's darkest (almost obliterated) at the mid point. This is followed by intense and troublous activity as the gospel reemerges and ends in final glorious victory!
Rev. 8:12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day had light only a third part of it,
The question: Why this emphases on the "darkness" which seemed to triumph at the midpoint of the history of Christianity? Is there something about it that we need to know?
These "middle" years known as the "dark ages" have an important message which, if dismissed as having nothing to do with the future, robs people of understanding much of the richness of the final triumph over darkness.
The emphases of the 1260 years in Daniel and Revelation (Daniel 7:23-25, 12:7, Revelation 11:2-3, 12:6, 12:14) alerts us this is important! What, according to those prophetic words, do we find was happening during this period? It's a time when earthly dominion by a power that usurps God's authority and the rights of the individual wields control, a time of intolerance and persecution, a time when all that witnesses for God and the gospel is disregarded, people witness at peril of their very lives, a time when God's church, (the symbolic woman) is driven into the wilderness simply to survive.
Today the world fears of darkness coming by means of technological advanced weapons of destruction being unleashed, as a final world war leaves the world in rumbles, or a super covid bug wipes out humanity, or a total economic crash, as the great things to be feared. Yet those are not the primary concern of the prophecies. There's no doubt that terrible trouble is ahead, however, what do these prophecies emphasize as the greatest threat? The greatest thing to be "feared"?
What will bring a dark age back? What should be feared? It's political and religious dominance united in a rule by force, forced religious ritual, while the righteousness in Christ is ignored or belittled; personal conviction and private thinking stifled.
One lesson to learn from the "Dark Ages" is obvious, when church unites with the government in order to gain its end, replacing personal conviction with their version of piety, and the church calls on the government for aid to enforce their dogmas upon the people, civilization is not saved, it dies, true religion in obedience and trust to and in our Savior's leading is oppressed, while a form of devotion (with its adjusted commandments) is enforced.
This is why there is so much emphases in Revelation on what happened in the past, for that is the true danger that will force itself upon the world in the future.
Why is this greater to be feared than other disasters?
The greatest to be feared is that which tries to break our connection with our Savior.
The overcomers are they that resist the beast, his image and mark, and with patient endurance keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. Rev. 14:9.10,12
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
In the end, all tyranny shall end. They may fight against the Lamb, "but the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. Rev. 17:14 Revelation 21:6-7 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#199232
11/19/25 03:47 PM
11/19/25 03:47 PM
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OP
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We find reasons posted to discard the historicist understanding of the trumpets. We can only ask "WHY?" Why, even in the Adventist church do we find a drive to dismiss the historicist message? Here are some of the supposed reasons: Why the Trumpets Cannot Be Historical Several internal evidences confirm the trumpets belong to the final generation: Their events occur after the sealing (Rev. 7), which is future. To clarify -- Historicism, means understanding that the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation cover time from the prophet's day right down to the end of time. Adventists' original position of interpretation is Historicist or Historicism. (Revelation was not written by the prophet recounting history already past, John was given prophecy depicting the future centuries to unfold from the prophet's time to the end. From the time of Christ's ascension to His final victory.) The position that the trumpets occur AFTER the sealing distorts much of the understanding of the previous chapters. First it not only rejects the historicist interpretations of the trumpets, it first rejects the historicist interpretation of Revelation 4 and 5 by jumping straight way into the Most Holy Place ministry of Christ. This is basically rejecting (pushing aside) Christ's ministry in the Holy Place. Now popular interpretations have long argued that Christ, as our High Priest, went straight into the Most Holy Place. But that rejects the two phase priestly ministry of Christ. It basically pushes aside the fact that Christ had a priestly ministry in the Holy Place for 1810 years of Christian history. Again this is an adjustment that glosses over the usurpation of the earthly counterfeit that reigned over Christendom for many of those years. Far from supporting the investigative judgement it undermines one of the chief reasons for the investigative judgement. Remember the pre-Advent judgement in Daniel 7 is set up because of the "horn". (This horn represents a system with a false gospel being enforced, in the name of being Christ's true church) it's this "horn" with all it's false methods of salvation, and adherents to it's principles needing to be judged. During this time Christ was the true source of salvation, the true Priest. The investigation would come before Christ returns, but that phase had not yet begun. Revelation 4 and 5 is Christ, immediately after His ascension, entering the heavenly sanctuary and being declared worthy to be our High Priest in BOTH the Holy Place and later in the Most Holy Place. Because He was slain. Rev. 5:6 there stood a Lamb as it had been slain, Rev. 5:9 "Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for You were slain, and have redeemed us to God by thy blood.In the Holy Place, the sins of praying saints were forgiven, covered by Christ's blood, their confession and names written in the books of heaven. This was all in preparation for the final investigative judgement. The investigative judgment determines if we have given our sins to Jesus that He could cover them with His blood. The investigation however doesn't happen until the SEVENTH TRUMPET sounds and the " the time of the dead, that they should be judged," and the decision for "rewards" is made (Rev. 11:18) and it is then the ark of the testament is seen. (Rev. 11:19) in heaven. There is NO ark of the testament in the picture in Rev. 4 or 5, the only sanctuary items seen are seven lamps (representing the Holy spirit about to be poured out on Christ's church) and censers or vials full of odors representing prayers of saints. Revelation 4 and 5 marks the BEGINNING of Christ's High Priestly ministry in the heavenly sanctuary. And He begins in the Holy Place, not till the Seventh Trumpet does He enter the Most Holy Place where the ark is.
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#199233
11/19/25 04:28 PM
11/19/25 04:28 PM
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OP
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Second PointThe argument that the trumpets are all in the future still in our time, because they come after the seals, also rejects the historicist interpretation of Revelation 6 in which the scroll is unsealed. Interesting how the UNSEALING gets interpreted as "sealing"? It's true that the unsealing of the scroll does lead up to the time God's people are sealed, the unsealing of the scroll is not the sealing itself. Revelation 6 runs parallel to Revelation chapter 2 and 3, covering pretty much the same time periods. It begins as Christ, right after His ascension, took His place in the heavenly sanctuary as our High Priest. He has taken the book of God's covenant. The whole destiny of the world is in His hands. As the seals on the book of the covenant are removed it reveals how Christianity is responding to the covenant. The unsealing follows God's pattern of establishing a covenant with promises and curses in Deut. 27 and 28. After God brought Israel out from the bondage of Egypt, he made a covenant with them that contained certain conditions. If they cooperated with God and made Him their Lord and God, they would be blessed. But if they went after other gods and discarded God's commands and invitations, they would experience curses. These curses are things like war, famine, pestilence and natural destroyers. So when Christ returned to heaven and took the book of the covenant and entered into the sanctuary, we are shown how the new covenant was received by Christians who had been freed from the bondage of sin by the blood of Christ! As the first seal is removed it reveals Christians rejoicing in salvation (crowns on their head) on fire for the Lord, going out spreading the good news! As the second seal is removed it reveals suffering persecution and war. By the third and fourth opening of the seals, Christians are suffering famine, pestilence and wild beasts and death. Christianity was NOT cooperating with God making Him their Lord and Savior, thus Christianity was suffering all the curses! The removal of the seals is NOT the investigative judgment, at least not before the fifth seal. When the fifth seal is lifted we read about an urgent question. HOW LONG TILL YOU JUDGE??? And the reply is "wait" when the judgment takes place they will be given white robes, but this is not yet the second coming they have to "sleep" (be in their grave) a little longer. The investigative judgment begins somewhere after the fifth seal is removed. When the sixth seal is removed, that's when we find ourselves in the last days. All the signs of Christ's soon coming flashing by, and the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; Rev. 614-15 The sixth seal already shows Christ's second coming. People" say to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? (Rev. 6:16,17)Revelation 7 answers the question asked during the sixth seal ---"who shall be able to stand? The trumpets do NOT sound after the second coming. They run parallel with the seals. The seals showing Christian's response to the covenant, the trumpets show the judgments as they fell on those who rejected the covenant conditions in the past. Yes, a clear warning for the future! The same things that brought the curses in the past will also keep people from receiving future blessings if they follow the same path as those in the past. Their (the trumpets) judgments parallel the seven last plagues, which are future They culminate in events clearly located at the end of the age (Rev. 11:18?19) How could they run parallel? That means they would run congruently, at the same time. Why would God wait to sound this strong warning of trumpets AFTER the saints are all sealed and there is no more opportunity to change? To me it's plain, the trumpets have sounded. Six have given very important warnings that we need to seriously study. The seventh trumpet IS sounding, it announced the pre-Advent judgment, and the immanent coming, and that seventh trumpet will continue to sound till all things are finished. This contains the last terrible struggle and anger of nations, and the last plagues. IF we allow the trumpets to remain in their historicist position and purpose we will have a far better picture of the real crises about to descend upon the world. The curses that befell Christianity in the past are a clear warning for the future. Yes, the trumpets which reveal the curses that fell upon a covenant defying Christianity, are a strong warning for the future. The plagues are the final curse that falls upon all in defiance of God's covenant, and not in the safety of Christ's refuge and sustaining power. The plagues will be far more severe than the trumpets, and yes, the plagues are still future. Those who refuse to learn from the past, dismissing the historicist revelation of the trumpets, however, may not recognize the conditions that brought those curses, thus may even run to the "beast" in order to escape the "dragon" only to find themselves totally deceived and on the wrong side.
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#199249
11/26/25 12:52 PM
11/26/25 12:52 PM
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OP
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As we are also studying the book of Joshua we see parallels to the trumpets. At the beginning of the conquest of Canaan, trumpets sounded and the walls of Jericho tumbled down. God had opened the door for the conquest, the promises of God assured. Israel could move forward claiming the land. Their covenant with God was confirmed at the mount of blessings and cursings, they bore the sign in their bodies that they believed they were in the covenant relationship, they celebrated the first Passover, rejoicing in God's deliverance and in hope of possessing the land. In like manner, John and the other apostles are witnesses that Jesus confirmed the covenant of salvation with all who will believe. Jesus opened the door for all to take possession of the inheritance of hope. But the battles were just beginning. Hebrews chapters 3-4 show even though Joshua offered them rest, and with God's strength broke the resistance of the Canaanites, Israel did not receive that rest. Joshua shared with Israel what would happen as they would disregard God's covenant with them. And in the same manner John is showing what would happen to Christianity as they disregard the covenant (yes, the new covenant God makes with Israel Heb.8:8) Jesus has made this covenant with Israel. (All who are in Christ are the Israel, heirs of the promises Gal. 3:29)
The trumpets, all through Christendom outline the fierce battles. The forces of evil, though legally defeated will not give up their claim of the "land" without a roaring, fierce fight.
People will argue that the seven trumpets are still all in the future in our time, seemingly using the concept that Revelation's trumpet imagery is to express future warnings, not post-event descriptions.
Yes, indeed the seven trumpets are warnings for the future when this battle reaches it's final confrontations. BUT remember when Revelation was written! It was written in John's day, back in the first century. John the apostle was not writing history, he was writing about future events.
What was all future in John's day, becomes history as those prophecies are fulfilled.
As we come to the end of time, we know we are at the end of time because so many of the prophecies have been fulfilled. Six of the trumpets have given their warnings. From our point of view, standing on the brink of eternity, these messages give the example of history so we may know what these forces are which Satan has used, stock piled and developed to obliterate the truth of salvation in Christ from the view of people.
In the end it isn't volcanoes, climate change, pollution of the waters, disease or wars that are the reason people are lost. It is because they are not "in Christ" in covenant relationship of faith, trust, and obedience.
The ultimate reason people are lost is because they are not connected to Christ He is the only source of true happiness and salvation. Sadly, scripture reveals many will say, but we were working for you, yet Christ says "I never knew you, depart, you were working outside of my covenant. (See Matt.7: 22-23: Luke 13:27)
That's why the warnings stretch out over the years of Christianity. What is Christianity's response to Christ's covenant. What are the battles Satan has used and developed and will continue to use against Christianity to blind them to their rejection of salvation.
The trumpets don't sound after the censor is cast down and probation has already closed. they have sounded so we can look back and see that God foreknew what would happen. To look back and be solidified that there is no light in seemingly religious spiritual gatherings and powers that are operating outside of God's covenant. They give messages to gather courage from those that lost their lives because they loved and trusted Jesus, and honour Him.
In the end its those powers which the trumpets loudly identify and warn that their way was NOT living according to God's covenant and resulted in reaping painful results, that will (and are already) presenting themselves in such a way the masses of people will look to, for help to solve the world's problems.
We have nothing to fear except how God has guided and led in the past.
The seventh trumpet assures us there is a higher court, not all who say they are of Christ are followers of Christ. That higher court is determining who are followers of the "destroyer" and who are followers of Christ. It's in session right now, at the ark of the covenant, part of the seventh trumpet (Rev. 11:18-19, Daniel 7:9,10,13). We are to look to that ark of the covenant to understand. (Rev. 11:17) Jesus, right now is presenting the names of the overcomers before God the Father and all the angels, (Rev, 3:5) He has won back the lost inheritance for humanity and all who are with him (called, chosen and faithful) will inherit those blessed promises in the New Earth when He claims His right as King of kings and Lord of lords. Let's not reject the trumpets historicist messages and fail to recognize the issues which will attempt to keep us outside of Christ's covenant and saving power.
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#199252
11/26/25 06:32 PM
11/26/25 06:32 PM
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OP
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Why do people want to destroy the Historicist interpretation? Probably because they don't understand the Historicist interpretation. The historicist interpretation starts with the prophet's time. The purpose is not to predict future political events, or simply "rehash political tragedies of the past" but share a message which includes showing spiritual tragedy resulting from rejecting their Savior and His covenant. Another argument against Historicism is the idea that Jerusalem's fall in 70 AD John wrote about 20 years after Jerusalem's fall. The destruction of Jerusalem was already well-known in the early Christian world. It did not require a new vision to reinterpret it. It's fall has no direct implication for the world.The fall of Jerusalem definitely has world wide implication! It is definitely a warning to all future generations as Christianity began it's entrance into the world and on to the end of time. The historicist interpretation of the trumpets isn't just some isolated events in history. That is a distortion of the historicist method. The historicist method sees the story of professed people of God and their response to Christ's covenant, which was ratified on the cross and given as a gift to the world. Those trumpets reveal the results which follow because of the rejection of that gift over the centuries of time in the Christian era. That story began with the rejection of Christ by His own people. The rejection of Christ is the biggest reason, and basically the only reason, people are not saved, they remain lost, and will be destroyed, just as Jerusalem was. It sets the whole great controversy in vivid depiction. DANIEL'S VISIONS FOLLOW THE PATTERN: Daniel's prophesies started when Nebuchadnezzar was on the throne. Daniel was alive when several of the first scenes took place. Does that mean we need to reject the historicist interpretation because the head of gold in Daniel 2 and the lion in Daniel 7 (identified as Babylon) were already in power before Daniel wrote the vision? Does it imply there is no truth in interpreting the progression of the symbols that follow, coming on the scene still in the future for Daniel, like the terrible beast which represents Rome, or the horn which represents papal Rome? Now, for us all of those beasts are history, but still very relevant to understanding how things will shape up in the future. In historicism the prophet BEGINS with events in his own time and moves on to reveal where this is all going in the future as time progresses on to the final end. SOME SAY THE FIRST TRUMPET CAN'T REFER to Jerusalem? There's no 1/3 pattern, no cosmic fire, hail and blood. As to 1/3 pattern -- all that means is that the trumpets are not universal. It was mainly the people in Jerusalem itself who were destroyed in AD 70, as the center of their influence shattered. It was definitely a huge and terrible turning point for the nation. As to blood fire and hail -- there was much fire and blood, and the Romans catapulted the city with large stones, actually painting them black so they didn't reflect light as they came sailing down on the inhabitants. I'm sure there were still 2/3 of the Jewish nation along with "trees" their rabbis and leaders, who were alive, and who were not in the city at that time. However that rejection of Christ has seriously affected them for centuries to follow. The "green" grass was destroyed, not all grass. The trumpets have a lot of symbolic descriptions. In Psalms 23 green pastures are symbolic of peace and rest, but by rejecting Christ they rejected peace. This loss of peace was not just about those in the city who suffered the obvious result. (See Luke 19:42) Actually all who reject Christ end up rejecting true peace, which Christ alone can give. He leads His followers in those green pastures. ARE TRUMPETS LIMITED TO A SINGLE EVENT? While there are events that signal each trumpets main identity, their message is not a single event locked in one point in history, but issues that reach much, much further. The first trumpet, pointing us to the fate of Jerusalem which would not have happened had they accepted Christ as their Savior and Redeemer from sin, has tremendous impact, it is a powerful message for all ages, especially in the time of the end. The tears which Christ shed upon Olivet as He stood overlooking the chosen city were not for Jerusalem alone. In the fate of Jerusalem He beheld the destruction of the world. {COL 302.3}
The Saviour's prophecy concerning the visitation of judgments upon Jerusalem is to have another fulfillment, of which that terrible desolation was but a faint shadow. In the fate of the chosen city we may behold the doom of a world that has rejected God's mercy and trampled upon his law {GC 36.2}
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#199278
12/10/25 06:34 PM
12/10/25 06:34 PM
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OP
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The book of Revelation is a revelation about Jesus. Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants;
The book of Revelation is also a continuation and enlargement of the book of Daniel. We see the beasts of Daniel have evolved and merged into one beast by John the apostles time. Rev. 13: 2 describes this amalgamated beast -- body like a leopard, feet like the feet of a bear, mouth like the mouth of a lion, and yes, it is blasphemous, violent beast. (Compare Daniel 7)
The major difference between these two books is that Daniel wrote before Christ's incarnation, death and resurrection. Daniel wrote when the covenant for salvation was only known through, promise, ceremonies, and symbols. John, on the other hand, was written after Jesus had come to confirm the covenant, ratify it with His own blood. Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant... putting an end to the ceremonial sacrifices. Daniel 9:25 Christ is Messiah the Prince Daniel 11:22 also the prince of the covenant.
There is another prince Eph 2:2 the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience. Daniel also talked about that prince Dan. 9:26 the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. and the end thereof shall be with a flood Dan. 11:22 And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yes, also the prince of the covenant. That "other" prince, while primarily satan, is Rome as the earthly power.
Next notice what is under attack in verses written by Daniel pointing to time after Christ's first coming. Daniel 11:28 his heart shall be against the holy covenant; Daniel 11:30 have indignation against the holy covenant: Daniel 11:31 do wickedly against the covenant
Revelation is all about the covenant that Christ came to confirm.
What is the covenant?
Is it God's law? Is it the Sabbath? The law and the Sabbath are very much part of the covenant. But if that were all there was to the covenant it won't do us any good. None what-so-ever.
The problem -- Daniel 9:11 all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Therefore all are cursed, their sins condemn them, no matter how much they try to do to balance the score, they sinned and their wages is death.
When Jesus came to confirm the covenant with His own blood, it was to offer forgiveness, justification, pardon, to all who responded to His love, and turned their backs on sin, and look to him for cleansing to be sanctified by His power and Spirit.
An amazing gift of grace! A gift that should awaken intense love for our Savior and led us into close fellowship with Him!
BUT
Though Revelation repeatedly shows us Christ working to implement the blessings of the covenant; taking the book of the covenant, (Rev. 5) Tending his church on earth, offering them great promises if they would only believe in Him and overcome in His name, (1 John 5:4,5) urging them to "wash their robes" in His blood and be clean (Rev. 7:14) counselling them (Rev. 1-3) leading His people (Rev. 14:1), interceding in the heavenly sanctuary for mankind's salvation (Rev. 8:2-4), Yet what is mankind's reception?
THE FIRST TRUMPET Christ came to His own people -- the ones who had all the prophecies, the ones who had the covenant in promise, ceremonies and symbols. The ones who should have welcomed Him with glad voice! But His own received Him not. The same prophet who recorded the prophecies of Revelation wrote: John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
The Jewish nation rejected Him, so their probation as the nation to be the light of the gospel to the world went out. Their position as God's special people ended in 34 AD. The first trumpet sounded soon after.
Terrible -- rejecting Christ unleashes the powers of sin, and the results are terrible. Blood, fire, hail -- terrible lose. Yet every person in that nation who accepted Christ and His salvation, escaped the destruction!
Those trumpets reveal the results which follow because of the rejection of that gift, the gift of the covenant of grace, ratified by Christ's blood, for the salvation of mankind from sin, to be justified and sanctified by His power. They show the results not just for the Jewish nation but over the centuries of time in the Christian era.
The rejection of Christ is the biggest reason, and basically the only reason, people are not saved, they remain lost, and will be destroyed, just as Jerusalem was. It sets the whole great controversy in vivid depiction.
The law can not save anyone. The leaders in Jerusalem back there in AD 30, were very law centered, outwardly, they were keeping the Sabbath, but without Christ and His spirit, it was not true righteousness. When the true principles and reality of God's law is part of a person's life it demonstrates that the person has Jesus in their lives, He is their Savior, Redeemer, Sanctifier, and Lord. They follow the Lamb where ever He leads.
When we read from the book Great Controversy what takes place before the Great White Throne Judgment -- what is revealed to the lost? It is Christ's self sacrificing love, on the cross, and all the appeals to each person to "come" and be saved, that are revealed, and how they had stifled and pushed aside each appeal. Seeing this, all declare that God is not only just, but full of love, they had rejected HIM, that's why they are on the outside of the city of life and eternal love and righteousness.
Thus yes, the 1st trumpet, gave the warning -- way back at the beginning of Christianity. Have we listened to it? Have we accepted the PRINCE of the Covenant.
All the trumpets give distinct messages from history, it's all about the danger of rejecting Christ's covenant of grace and righteousness. All those messages are still sounding today, more urgently than ever before. Because soon probation will close for the whole world.
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#199279
12/10/25 09:56 PM
12/10/25 09:56 PM
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OP
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2nd trumpet
This one is very relevant for today. We see the movement of religion seeking to unite with government power, thinking to enforce law (God's law) is the answer.
The second trumpet is about a great mountain -- a great nation
Jeremiah 51:24 And I will render unto Babylon...against thee, O destroying mountain, saith the LORD, which destroyest all the earth: and I will stretch out mine hand upon thee, and roll thee down from the rocks, and will make thee a burnt mountain.
Babylon is symbolic of powerful church/state control in Revelation. (Revelation 17 and 18) During the early Christian centuries the cryptic word "Babylon" appears commonly in both Jewish and Christian writings when referring to the city and empire of Rome.(1 Peter 5:13)
In Daniel, Rome is quite a central subject. It's that terrible beast out of which the horn emerges. The horn was "groomed" by the Roman Empire, but didn't come into full power until the western Roman Empire, --like a great burning mountain -- fell.
This union between Imperial Rome and the Church was first established back in 313 AD.
Daniel 11:23 And after (that is sometime after Jerusalem was destroyed in vs 22) the league was made with him he shall work deceitfully: (the Roman Empire made a league with Christianity) for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people. (Constantine saw it as a link to unite people into a more unified empire). Christianity, in years following, grew to be the state religion in the Roman Empire, the sword had entered the church which now claimed to have "two swords" one ecclesiastic, the other civil power. The Roman Empire was now supposedly "Christian".
But religion is not a matter of government enforcement. It always leads to persecution, trying to corral everyone into one mindset to unite the empire. It does not lead to true heart unity with our Savior and Redeemer. The supposed Christian empire was very corrupt. Basically just as pagan as always, just with imposed rules that had a Christian flavor.
Rev. 8:8-9 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.
Sea = people (Rev. 17:15) Rome was over run by hordes (a sea) of Barbarians, The Vandals, the Goths, the Huns, all left ruin and desolation, blood, and destruction. And yes, control of the Mediterranean Sea was a huge part of the battles. A lot of ships went down, a lot of sailors died. 439 CE, The Vandal Fleet conquered Sicily, Malta, Sardinia and Corsica. 455 CE, the Vandal Fleet arrived off the Italian coast, and embarked on the Second Sack of Rome 461 CE, Battle of Cartagena. The Vandal fleet destroys a West Roman Fleet. 468 CE, Battle of Cape Bon. The Vandal fleet defeats a combine East and West Roman Fleet 476 CE, The Western Roman Empire falls. The Vandals have control of the Mediterranean sea routes.
Ships symbolize a nation's power and self-sufficiency, the Western Roman downfall was hugely devastating to its economic and social order.
True, the eastern Empire was still there and they were able to push back against the Vandals and Goths later, and help the papacy get seated in power in Rome in 538. But they too were too weak to support the west for any length of time and retired to the east . By 476 the Western Roman Empire was gone.
So what is the message in all this?
In our day, Christian Nationalism is on the rise in the most powerful nation on earth: Christian Nationalism in America is the belief that the United States is, or should be, a "Christian" nation. They aren't content with people in America who, on their own initiative attend Christian churches if they so choose, Christian Nationalists believe the government should actively support, prioritize, and, where the need supposedly arises, enforce Christian beliefs and practices.
Revelation 13 predicts this rise -- a beast with two horns like a lamb, will start to enforce religion. Just like in Constantine's day, many Christians will think joining religion with government power, is a wonderful thing. A return to godly living they conclude. How could that be bad? Why not join? But it's outward, not inward reform. It's agenda is controlled by man, not in reference to God. And what about obeying God? With Constantine, Sunday as the day of rest took wings. Supported, too, by the bishop of Rome, who was well on his way to be a Bishop higher than all the other Bishops. Yet there was no "thus says the Lord", as it's foundation.
Again Sunday as the day of rest is on the agenda.
People won't see the danger, till it gets oppressive -- no buying or selling unless one yields to whatever the government thinks is important for this nation. And just like back in 300-450 AD years, the papacy will be increasing and reaching for full control, joining and orchestrating the movement.
But remember the fall of that powerful, seemingly unconquerable Roman empire; Even so, this mountain of a beast, too, will fall, no matter how powerful with world wide authority and power it may seem to have at any given time, it too will fall.
Worship God, our Creator and Savior. Acts 5:29 We ought to obey God rather than men.
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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets
[Re: dedication]
#199287
Yesterday at 04:43 PM
Yesterday at 04:43 PM
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OP
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The first two trumpets- 1. Rejection of the covenant which Christ had come to confirm (and did confirm with His own blood on Calvary). It was largely rejected by the nation that had the promises, that was supposedly waiting for the Messiah to appear. They did not reject their formal religion,but by rejecting Jesus, it was the rejection of that gift of Divine love and key to life and deliverance from sin. That rejection brings very bad results. Because there is only one way of salvation and that is through Christ, all other paths lead to destruction, because sin is destructive.
2. Using the state's civil power to enforce the covenant. The emperor makes a league with the Christians, and then we find an emperor "chairing" religious councils and decision making gatherings of church officials and using his power to enforce whatever decisions were made (and some of his own). The emperor was grooming the Roman bishop into his likeness, to take over his seat. The bishops and people think this is a blessing when in reality it was a huge step into apostacy. The wall between church and state was cast down. The state had placed himself as the guardian of the church. But the mountain with it's massive military power over the then known world was also cast down. Like a burning Mountain cast into the sea of humanity. This is a very important warning for today.
3. The bitter waters -- THIRD TRUMPET
Rev. 8:10-11 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.
Jesus came to give people the water of life. He sent His Holy Spirit to guide people into truth. But now, what looked like water, and was professing to be dispensing God's Word, was bitter, the covenant of God was being covered by poisoned water.
Remember, stars in Revelation symbolize leaders of the church. Rev. 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, ... The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: 2:1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; 2:12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write;
The one who became regarded as the greatest leader of the church, declared to be head over all the churches by the law of Justinian, who was now sitting in the seat of Rome, wasn't dispensing the water of life anymore, but bitter water.
There are also two sources -- The True Witness writing to the "stars" the leaders of the churches, calling for repentance and overcoming in His name, giving them the water of life. There is also another spirit coming from the original fallen star who wages constant war against Christ and truth, sending wrong influences to cause the church to stumble off the path of truth, dispensing bitter water.
The message? Are we drinking the living water coming to us, from Christ and His covenant and gift of grace and cleansing. Or are we drinking the bitter water, that is available all around us?
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Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
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