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Re: Meaning of Lazarus and the Rich Man [Re: dedication] #198562
03/08/25 09:51 AM
03/08/25 09:51 AM
Rick H  Offline

Group: Admin Team
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,312
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Here is a interesting post on one of the forums..
"14 IRRESOLVABLE CONTRADICTIONS WHICH RESULT FROM A LITERAL RICH MAN AND LAZARUS

BY CORRECTLY CONCLUDING that the story of Rich Man and Lazarus is a parable, we maintain Scriptural harmony, discern a valuable lesson from its interpretation, and put an end to its illegitimate use as a "proof text" for the doctrine of Eternal Torment - because any Bible scholar worth his salt knows we can't substantiate a doctrine on an uninterpreted parable. Here are 14 irresolvable contradictions which result from attempts to make the passage literal:

1. DISEMBODIED BODIES?
The Eternal Torment crowd claims when a person dies his body is buried, but ?his disembodied soul" leaves this world to points beyond without a body - so, why do the Rich Man, Lazarus, and Abraham have eyes, fingers, tongues, bosoms, legs to carry a warning, etc.? Obviously, "disembodied souls" by definition do not have bodies, and thus can't have eyes, tongues, fingers, bosoms, etc.

Now, before anyone jumps to any conclusions, we need to remember that 2 Corinthians 5:1 KJV plainly identifies only two types of bodies - the mortal and the resurrection - and that's the only two types of bodies God's Bible knows about. There's no mention in Scripture of any third type ?interim body? for the dead prior to the resurrection, so extra-Biblical ideas about a "disembodied body" or "ghost body" or "temporary body" are pure fiction and warrant no consideration whatsoever.

2. ABRAHAM'S LITERAL BOSOM?
Lazarus was carried ?into Abraham's bosom" - are we to believe all the righteous dead up until that time have been carried into Abraham's literal bosom? How big can Abraham's bosom be?

Now, those who claim ?Abraham's Bosom? is a literal, actual name for ?heaven? or ?paradise? need to read Luke 16:23 KJV which says the Rich Man sees Abraham afar off and Lazarus "in his bosom? - in the bosom of the man himself - which is physiological, not geographical.

3. LYING EYES?
The Rich Man is able to see ?Abraham afar off and Lazarus in his bosom? aka ?place of comfort? aka ?the kingdom? - but Jesus Himself said the wicked won't see the righteous in the kingdom until the end, in the Judgment, when the wicked are told to ?depart?. Yet, here we find Lazarus and Abraham in full view of the Rich Man.

Now, for those who claim these dead guys are actually in some supposed ?holding chamber? next door to hell called ?paradise? (now that we've seen ?Abraham's Bosom? is a purely fictitious place), we must remember that ?paradise? is easily shown from the Scriptures themselves to be where God is up there, not anywhere near hell down here.

4. THE DEAD KNOW NOT ANYTHING
(Ecclesiastes 9:5 KJV; Job 14:21 KJV; Psalm 146:4 KJV)

These dead guys sure seem to know a whole lot for people who aren't supposed to know anything.

5. THE DEAD DON'T REMEMBER ANYTHING
(Psalms 6:5 KJV; Ecclesiastes 9:5 KJV; Psalms 88:12 KJV)

These dead guys are sure able to remember a whole lot for people who aren't supposed to remember anything.

6. THE DEAD DON'T HAVE EMOTIONS
(Ecclesiastes 9:6 KJV; Proverbs 10:28 KJV)

These dead guys do a great job of demonstrating loving concern and also condescending disdain for people who aren't supposed to be able to have emotions.

7. THE DEAD DON'T PERFORM WORK
(Ecclesiastes 9:10 KJV; John 9:4 KJV)

The dead Rich Man mustn't have gotten the memo that Lazarus had finished his shift and clocked out - permanently.

8. THE DEAD DON'T DEVISE ANYTHING
(Ecclesiastes 9:10 KJV)

The dead Rich Man was well able to devise a plan to warn his brothers for someone unable to do so.

9. THE DEAD DON'T HAVE WISDOM
(Ecclesiastes 9:10 KJV; Proverbs 2:6 KJV)

Dead Abraham was well able give wise testimony about the convicting power of the Word of God for someone unable to do so.

10. THE DEAD DON'T PRAISE GOD
(Isaiah 38:18 KJV; Psalms 115:17 KJV; Psalms 88:11 KJV)

Dead Abraham sure spoke highly of God's Word for someone unable to do so.

11. THE DEAD ARE IN DARKNESS
(Psalms 88:12 KJV; Job 10:21-22 KJV)

These dead guys must all have been wearing night vision goggles to see through all that darkness.

12. THE DEAD ARE IN SILENCE
(Psalms 115:17 KJV; Psalm 31:17 KJV)

These dead guys were loud enough to wake the rest of the dead what with all that shouting back and forth at each other across that great gulf.

13. THE DEAD ARE ASLEEP
(Psalms 13:3 KJV; Ephesians 5:14 KJV; John 11:11-14 KJV)

These dead guys are fully awake and aware of their surroundings, especially the thirsty guy whose completely engulfed in flames of torment.

14. THE DEAD ARE RESERVED FOR FUTURE TORMENT
(2 Peter 2:9 KJV; Revelation 20:10 KJV)

The dead Rich Man must have been pretty bad to find himself immediately in flames of torment since God Himself says He's ?reserved the unjust unto the day of Judgment to be punished?.

Re: Meaning of Lazarus and the Rich Man [Re: dedication] #198563
03/08/25 10:00 AM
03/08/25 10:00 AM
T
TheophilusOne  Online Content
SDA
Active Member 2024

Regular Member
Joined: Jun 2021
Posts: 69
Fl
I heard this a few idea years ago from 3ABN Sabbath School-that these were the 5 brothers. This is just a bit more.
The groups listed?Essenes, Zealots, Herodians, Sadducees, and Scribes?represent different factions and social groups within Jewish society during the time of Jesus. Each had distinct beliefs, roles, and influences. Here?s a brief overview of each:

1. **Essenes**:
- A Jewish sect known for their strict piety and communal living.
- Often associated with the Dead Sea Scrolls, they lived in isolated communities, such as Qumran.
- They practiced ritual purity, avoided marriage, and were apocalyptic, believing in an imminent end of the world.

2. **Zealots**:
- A political movement within Judaism that sought to overthrow Roman rule in Judea.
- They were fiercely nationalistic and advocated for active resistance against Roman occupation.
- Their actions contributed to the First Jewish-Roman War (66-70 AD).

3. **Herodians**:
- A political group that supported the Herodian dynasty, including Herod the Great and his successors.
- They were more Hellenized and had political motivations aligned with Roman interests.
- Mentioned in the Gospels as being opposed to Jesus, often collaborating with the Pharisees.

4. **Sadducees**:
- A priestly and aristocratic sect that was influential in the Temple and associated with the high priesthood.
- They accepted only the written Torah (Pentateuch) and rejected oral traditions and beliefs not explicitly found in it, such as the resurrection of the dead.
- They were generally more conservative and collaborated with Roman authorities to maintain their status.

5. **Scribes**:
- Also known as "teachers of the law" or "lawyers," they were experts in the Jewish law and were often Pharisees.
- They were responsible for copying and interpreting the Torah and were highly respected for their knowledge.
- Scribes played significant roles in Jewish religious and community life, often teaching in synagogues.

I


Could they be the brothers?

It's an interesting hypothesis to consider that the five brothers in the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus might symbolically represent different Jewish groups such as the Essenes, Zealots, Herodians, Sadducees, and Scribes. While this is not a traditional interpretation and the parable does not explicitly link the brothers to these groups, exploring this idea can offer deeper insights into the parable's message. Here?s how each group might fit symbolically as the brothers:

1. **Essenes**:
- **Symbolic aspect**: Representing extreme piety and withdrawal from society, the Essenes could symbolize a segment of Jewish society focused on personal purity and eschatological expectations, potentially neglecting broader social responsibilities.

2. **Zealots**:
- **Symbolic aspect**: As revolutionaries, the Zealots could represent those who prioritize political and military solutions over spiritual repentance and care for others, especially the marginalized like Lazarus.

3. **Herodians**:
- **Symbolic aspect**: Supporters of the Herodian dynasty and collaborators with Rome, the Herodians might symbolize those who align themselves with political power and material wealth, similar to the rich man's lifestyle.

4. **Sadducees**:
- **Symbolic aspect**: As the priestly aristocracy focused on temple rituals and cooperation with Roman authorities, the Sadducees could represent religious leaders who are more concerned with maintaining their status and wealth than with true justice and compassion.

5. **Scribes**:
- **Symbolic aspect**: The Scribes, as experts in the Law, might symbolize those who possess knowledge of the Scriptures but fail to act on its ethical teachings regarding care for the poor and needy.

By viewing the five brothers as representations of these different groups, the parable can be interpreted as a critique of various segments within Jewish society that, despite their differences, share a common failure to heed the ethical demands of the Scriptures. Each group, in its way, could be seen as ignoring the prophetic call to justice, mercy, and humility.

In this symbolic reading, Abraham?s statement that the brothers have "Moses and the Prophets" to guide them would be a reminder that all these groups, despite their differing interpretations and priorities, have access to the same foundational teachings. The parable thus underscores the universal need for repentance and compassion, transcending specific social or religious identities.

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