Regarding "there should be time no longer" in Revelation 10:6 EGW wrote:

EGW wrote, "This time, which the Angel declares with a solemn oath, is not the end of this world's history, neither of probationary time, but of prophetic time, which would precede the advent of our Lord. That is, the people will not have another message upon definite time. After this period of time, reaching from 1842 to 1844, there can be no definite tracing of the prophetic time. The longest reckoning reaches to the autumn of 1844." {CTr 344.5}

In other words, the words "there should be time no longer" in Revelation 10:6 is referring to the fact that there should be prophetic time no longer since "the autumn of 1844", or more precisely, since October 22, 1844.

Daryl, I agree with EGW's statement, there is to be no more time periods attached to prophecies after 1844, but I am curious as to what you are aiming for with your questions all focused on time? Are you for or against all this new way of "reckoning" that people like to do concerning events between 1844 and Christ delivering His people?

the people will not have another message upon definite time {CTr 344.5}

True historicism does not side step those quotes by saying, as long as we throw out the "Day for a Year" principle after 1844, it is no longer prophetic time, so we can still preach more messages in which we can reckon as to how much time we have left, or how much time this event or that event will take as long as we don't use the "day for a year" principle.
Somehow some people think those quotes only apply to prophecies if the day for a year principle is applied.
Yet, to speculate on time is building on shifting sand, they fail. We are not to set any time predictions on events between 1844 and the Grand Deliverance.

Where does the thought come from that somehow getting rid of the day for a year principle is no longer dealing with prophecies time. All prophesied time predicted LITERAL TIME. The 1260 years were literal years. We won't find any verse or quote that says to now get rid of the day for year principle and make new time lines.

It seems to me to be a fanciful diversion from the real issues of today, predicting times is not part of the three angel's messages.


We need to have faith that Christ is finishing, wrapping up, all His work in completing the mystery of salvation and He will come, when He sees the time is right, not when we think it should happen. We need to be ready NOW.

We are at the very end. Why do people want to insert a bunch of timelines, between them and the coming?
That's like being on a road trip when a person is just a few more meters from the destination, having passed all the landmarks, and they, instead of eagerly expecting to see their destination any minute, get out the map, add up all the kilometers between the cities they have passed, then, change all the kilometers to meters and say that's how long it will still take????? Not really logical.

The truth is, we are very near the end, there are no more timelines. Are we ready NOW.

THE SIXTH TRUMPET

Christ's work	Text	Symbolism	History
Rev. 8:3-4 Jesus is still before the golden altar of incense in the Holy Place. The altar serves as a constant reminder of our need for a mediator between God and humanity. But at this point, when the 6th trumpet begins in history, His ministry has been largely hidden from the people on earth.	Rev. 9:13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,	Four horns symbolize the four corners of the earth. In Hebraic thought, the earth is likened to a large altar dedicated to God. The four horns may symbolize something going out to those four corners of earth. Horns also symbolize strength, or power. Duet. 33:17, 2 Sam. 22:3, Ps. 18:2 A VOICE Since Jesus is standing at the golden altar in Rev. 8:3, we may assume it is His voice that gives the command.	1454 the Byzantine Empire fell, Constantinople became Istanbul the Turk's Capital city. For over 1000 years Constantinople had stood as a barrier between east and west. It's fall would affect the whole world.
	Rev. 9:14 the great river Euphrates	Babylon, which anciently was located on the Euphrates River, is not literal Babylon in Revelation, but is symbolic of the Papal church and her ?daughters?. Euphrates must then also have a symbolic, not literal meaning. Rev. 17:1 Babylon is said to "sit on many waters", Rev. 17:15 identifies the waters as peoples, multitudes and nations.	The fall of of the Byzantine empire caused quite an extensive shift in regard to peoples, nations, multitudes and ethnic groups. The whole world would be affected.

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THE SIXTH TRUMPET IN REVELATION NINE.

Text	Christ's Work	Symbolism	History
9:14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet,	Christ in holy place mediating	Trumpet angel messenger announcing and warning that more knowledge will be misused	From 1449 to 1840
Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.	Opening up more knowledge so people may discover truth.	Four angels with with messages released	With the fall of Byzantine, Four major themes emerged and drifted out to Europe and from there on around the world.

1. Renaissance: While Europe experienced the Dark Age, the Arabs developed universities, large libraries, musical instruments, clocks, science, chemistry, medicine, navigation, philosophy and humanism.
When Constantinople fell in 1453, many scholars fled from the Turks, bringing scientific knowledge as well as Classical Greek and Roman books to Europe. The emphasis on rational thought and science provided a boost to humanism.

2. Reformation: When Constantinople fell in 1453. Hundreds of Greek manuscripts containing passages from the Bible were brought to Europe. The Gutenberg printing press was invented. Men like Erasmus collected Greek manuscripts and printed a Greek Bible in 1516, (Roman's Bible was the Latin Vulgate) Others like Tyndale translated the Bible in the tongue of the people. But the Reformation was followed by a Counter Reformation working to extinguish Protestantism.

3. The Turkish Muslims, actually opened up the flow of information. With Constantinople conquered, they moved their conquests west. Greatly antagonizing the eastern European countries. This was a big distraction to the Vatican's attempts which sought to adapt to increasing knowledge which was working to increase humans desires for "rights" and hindered their ability to curb the reformation. This distraction helped the Reformation to gain a sizable foothold in Europe.

4. The spirit of conquest of the whole world. With the fall of Constantinople it was more difficult for safe travel to India and China for trade. Europe wanted to find a new route to these countries. 1492 Columbus set sail westward to find this route, and found America. Some of the greatest "slaying" of the inhabitants of the earth followed. Whole empires in the Americas were wiped out, by war and disease. Colonization followed. The whole earth was being affected.
Were 1/3 of mankind slain? It was definitely a large amount:
1. Those slain in the Turkish wars
2. Those slain because they were protestant
3. Those slain in all those religious wars in Europe
4. Those slain due to European exploration and conquests.

From the three pieces of evidence: 1. Mrs. White's statement that trump after trump must sound plague after plague must fall; from Elder Strand's outstanding chiastic structure of Revelation; and that Miller had both the trumpets and plagues spread out over history, and that as a church we've compromised holding to Miller's view of trumpets but changing the plagues to Mrs. White's statement of the trumps and plagues: I understand ultamately that we will have to turn from Miller's views of the trumps and like we did with his view of the plagues, turn to Mrs. White's statement that places them in the future. From what Mrs. White said and what the chiasm indicates I understand the trumpets to be the little time of trouble that leads to both the latter rain and close of probation, and the plagues the great time of trouble after the close of probation.

Now, if you read Strand's book on the chiasm, or other Adventist books referring to his study, it sets up an artificial dividing line of all before the middle being historical and all after being prophetic. However, when we were presented with Strand's chiasm at Atlantic Union College, the professors did not mention the idea that the first half of Revelation was historic and the second half prophetic,. Of course my professors at AUC taught that the trumpets and plagues are both future and Strand's chiasm was a major argument for them. When I was as the seminary and found that "first half historic and last half prophetic" it does not feel right. Other Biblical chiasms don't work this way and it was all prophetic when John wrote Revelation, I made an appointment with Dr. Strand to ask him about it. He became guarded and said "I know what Mrs. White said, and I know what my study of a chiasm indicates, but those higher up [and pointed up] told me that if I did not do something to support the traditional view of the trumpets that I'd have to look for a new job..." and would not go further.

An additional thing that bothers me about the traditional understanding is that it comes quite strong on the Muslims. I believe that Islam is sadly going through their own version of the dark ages, but that Mohamad was impressed with the God of the Bible, but found Judaism incomplete without Jesus, but found the corruption in the church, and how many saints were treated as the pagans treated the different false gods, he was not comfortable becoming a Christian. He did not know how many of the church's errors got into the scripure, so he tried to worship the God of the Bible yet try to avoid the couruption of the church (Interestingly, as we look at the "Muslim crescent" it surrounded the corrupt church and began receding as Protestantism grew. ) While there could be things in their history that was not the best, I'm not comfortable making them too much the villian. (The 1844 message was not only in Christianity, but also pockets of Jews and Muslims).

Now that I've given my little temper tantrum, let me also say that before we can have a clearer understanding of prophecy we need to see how the Lord had lead his people in the past. A first and sadly overlooked, but most important step is to see what the original local events were happening that the prophecies are based on and how God wanted to end the work back then. The second step is to see how God's people have applied it over history; so in this case it means to have an awareness of the traditional view of the trumpets over history. What will happen with be a direct reflection over how it could have been fulfilled in John's day, but also the principles have been carried over in historism and help us see what is happening when it is time to know; it will build on what the Lord has already been leading us over historism, and our faithfulness to where the Lord has thus far lead us, but being aware that there are things we need to learn and unlearn, God will be able to lead us farther. If we completely reject the Mrs. Whtie quote and what the chiasm naturally indicates and want to hold dogmaticly to the traditional view God can't lead us any further. If we simply want to give it up and wait for something else, we will have nothing in our minds that God can work with, nothing that God can build upon.

There is a lot more to understanding the historicism view in prophecy than what people realize.




Let's look closer at the symbolism.

Text	Symbol with Explanation
sixth angel which had the trumpet,	Angel=messenger, trumpet= announcements and/or warnings
Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.	angels=messengers, four messages loose= means something was holding them back,	These are messages of information, which had concentrated in the east and which the fall of Constantinople released, which spread out and scattered throughout Europe, Russian and on into the the world, throughout the 391 years. They are not four generals that died shortly after 1449.
And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them	Horses = carriers of soldiers and messengers Them that sat on them = these people are not the same as the horses	It was Christ who authorized the release, He did it to further the promotion of truth and bring people to repentance, but the devil worked to turn it to his advantage to attempt the destruction of truth and life.
and them that sat on them, having breastplates,	THE breastplates = symbolizes both protection and integrity and moral character in spiritual warfare. (Eph. 6:14) Beastplate also symbolizes Judgment, both for and against, The high Priest wore breastplate with Urim and the Thummim in Ex. 39	The breastplate is sanctuary language, as the High Priest wore a breastplate with 12 precious gems. The sixth trumpet wasn't just a warning that turning against God brought disaster, it was also a call to repentance, and to look up to Christ mediating for them in the heavenly sanctuary.
breastplates of fire, and of jacinth	jacinth = a gem in the Bible, a precious stone, located in the third row of the priest's breastplate (Exodus 28:19) jacinth, the eleventh layer of gems in the foundation of the New Jerusalem (Rev. 21:20) Fire = can destroy, it can also cleanse.	Christ's purpose in authorizing the release of these movements was to bring truth into the foreground once again. It was preparation for the world which would soon face the seventh trumpet.
and the heads of the horses as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.	Heads of Lions. Christ is the Lion of Judah, He is the Word, the truth and the life, but there are other lions roaring as well -- Babylonian beast of Daniel 7 had a lion's head. The devil is like a roaring lion seeking whom he can devour. 1Peter 5:8	Releasing the spread for/of knowledge was meant to bring forth truth and ignite a deeper search for truth, especially Biblical truth, yet this spread of knowledge was seized by the devil to destroy truth and bring forth counterfeits to bury and hide the truth.
out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone...9:17 which issued out of their mouths...9:18 their power is in their mouth...9"19	Three times the focus is on mouth. Mouth represents TALK speaking and spreading of ideas.	These horses are arguing, fighting with words, against the things God wanted people to understand.
9:19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails [were] like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.	power in their tails Isaiah 9:15 the prophet that teaches lies, he is the tail. Those tails had heads, serpent heads, meaning they were speaking counterfeits inspired by the serpent.	What were these counterfeits that rose against the truth? Reinterpreting prophecy with futuristic and preterist interpretations taking focus off the central themes in prophecy. But especially replacing the Savior with man's achievement, wisdom and reasoning powers.
yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood:	Muslim, Catholic, pagan, eastern religions all depend on human achievement for salvation, while Christ, takes a secondary place, or is shut out completed.
The issues in Revelation, all through the ages revolve around the Great Controversy, will people come and worship and follow Christ in Whom is life and salvation, or will they follow the devil's deceptions thinking they can be or make their own god, which only ends in destruction.
Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.	There was a lot of physical destruction, and very hurtful actions taking place during that time, as conquest, force and coercion was continually applied.	Religious persecution, Religious wars, Political wars and conquests, destroy 1/3 of the world population. Even Rome's population dropped from 55,000 to 10,000 in 1527 AD.
an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year 391 years,	1449 -1840 From the fall of Byzantine empire to the Turks, to the passing of power from Turkish empire to the European powers	By 1840 the landscape of civilization had greatly changed. Protestantism principles and more representative government was the leading influence in most of the western world, the world was expecting a millennium of peace! In spite of the counterfeits that raged against them over those years, truth had also left its mark. Would the world move forward and accept the message of the seventh trumpet, or would they reject and fight against it, with all the counterfeits that were established in the past flaring to new heights of intensity to fight against truth.

Revelation 11 depicts an event, near the end of the sixth trumpet's 391 years, which resulted due to the misuse of the knowledge released in 1449. That event was French Revolution.

. The release of ancient wisdom which sparked the renaissance or rebirth of human desire for excellence and knowledge, had developed into the Age of Reason and humanism, as well as encouraging people to fight for liberty and equality. But, this shift away from a more tightly controlled society, led people to depend on self, and look to self, instead of seeking the wisdom of God and righteousness. The focus was to honor the power of reasoning abilities and achievements of mankind above the Creator God.

In France, especially, the truths gleaned from the rediscovered manuscripts and translations of God's Word which had been the foundation of the Reformation, had been countered by the Vatican's Counter Reformation. The Vatican sought to exterminate Protestantism. It was a time when the word of truth could only witness "in sackcloth" until finally in France, it was "killed" and human reason was exalted as the only rule and object to worship.

When God and His law is separated and rejected from mankind's reasoning and ambitions, evil triumphs. This was demonstrated in the reign of terror that raged in France, the depth of evil, when God and His law is cast out, is terrible.

What happened in France was not yet the final crises when the Holy Spirit departs from earth and Satan is allowed to fully demonstrate his evil, but it was frightening demonstration of what happens when God and His law is rejected.

In Revelation 11, it wasn't the whole world that rejected God and His Word, and the very horror of what happened in and around France, helped people realize how precious God's Word was, and the Bible gained popularity as never before. There was great revival of faith and a seeking for truth in many countries, especially those where Protestantism was alive. The years following 1798 and on to 1840 are known as a period of "spiritual awakening."

So what is the life saving message of these trumpets?

Is it all about catastrophe, wars, and armies?
Is it a sandbox where people can play with fanciful interpretations?

No -- it's about Christ and His Word, it's the battle between truth and error.

When we come to the end of the sixth trumpet we see this more clearly.

There we see --
two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. Rev. 11:4

Those candlesticks represented the word of God. The psalmist says, "Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto may path Ps 119:105 Those 391 years are about the struggle to bring the Bible back to the people. The sixth trumpet is nearing it's end, a terrible battle to get rid of the Bible erupts in France, 1793,, when for a short time one nation almost succeeded in doing so, but after that reign of terror, there was a virtual explosion of Bibles all over the world!

Did we see a battle against the Bible and the truth of Christ's salvation all through those trumpets?

1st Trumpet (27-70 AD)
Christ Who is the Word, Life and Truth walked among men revealing the Character of God and the truth of the kingdom of God and salvation.
Some believed, but the majority rejected Him, the author and creator of Life and Truth.

Matt. 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that kills the prophets, and stones them which are sent unto tyou , how often would I have gathered your children together, even as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
And the desolation came in 70 AD.

2nd Trumpet (70 - 476)
God's Word with the Gospel was taken to the Gentiles. Roman united with Christianity, the state uniting with the church, but it was not a matter of the heart, lives were not changed, instead paganism entered the church. The western Roman Empire fell like a great burning mountain into the sea of humanity. ( 476 AD)

3rd Trumpet (476 - 600)
The infusion of wormwood doctrines into the Christian church, made the "water of life" bitter. (Early papal years)

4th trumpet
God's Word hidden from the people, darkness -- the dark ages. (600 - 1200 AD)

5th trumpet (1229 -1499)
This was the Eastern Byzantine Empire's call to repentance as destruction was threatening . The Eastern Orthodox Church had greater resources of truth and ancient writings. It was always a few steps behind the Roman church's apostasy. Though they did eventually embrace most of the non Biblical beliefs and practices of the Roman church. In prophecy locusts become a symbol of divine intervention in human affairs. In Christ, protection is offered against scorpions (Luke 10:19) But here the scorpions are given power to cause distress. All through Biblical history we see God ?giving? his people who have turned from Him, into the hands of raiders and enemies, in the hopes they would repent and turn back to Him.
They were harassed 150 years. 1229-1449 by the Ottomans. Would they trust in God and turn to His Word or trust in their military might?
But they didn't repent.

6th Trumpet 1449 -1840
The fall of the Byzantine Empire 1449 - 1453 to the Ottomans, scattered the Orthodox believers into Russia and the west. They took with them many of the ancient writings including Greek manuscripts of the Bible. These manuscripts were collected, Erasmus produces a Greek Bible which reformers translated into local languages. Printing was invented. The Word of God was being made more available. The Reformation began with its call for solo Scripture. Yes, there were also many wars, persecution and destruction, but do we also see the role of scripture through these trumpets?

The sixth trumpet includes the war against the Bible itself during the French revolution. (11:7-9)
It also shows the two olive trees and the lampstand which signifies God pouring truth from the scripture for mankind to learn and taste.(11:3) It includes the resurrection of the two witnesses (the Bible) during the revolution,(11:11) and its elevation into popularity.(11:12)

The Bible gained ground during the Reformation, and the sixth trumpet shows the angel with an open book -- standing on land and sea. (10:2) That open book contains the Biblical books of prophecy (Daniel, Revelation) the people are urged to eat (read) it. The sixth trumpet is reaching it's end as prophecy is being opened up. And we see the development of the Millerite movement. By the end of the sixth trumpet the Bible is now the most sold book.

The Millerite Movement began in 1831, therefore, would that mean that the sixth trumpet also began in 1831?

No, the 6th trumpet covers 391 years, from 1449 to 1840.

It began with fall of the Byzantine Empire to the Ottomans, which, according to Revelation released four angels or messages.
Knowledge that had concentrated in the east.
This release of knowledge, included many Greek manuscripts.
When Constantinople fell in 1453. Hundreds of Greek manuscripts containing passages from the Bible were brought to Europe. The Gutenberg printing press was invented. Men like Erasmus collected Greek manuscripts and printed a Greek Bible in 1516, (Roman's Bible was the Latin Vulgate) but now people had access to manuscripts in the original language. Others like Tyndale translated the Bible in the tongue of the people. This sparked the reformation.
The Papal Church fought back, and there were many "religious" wars and much persecution.
The French Revolution also took place near the end of the 6th trumpet. Resulting in the end of the 1260 years of papal primacy.
The sixth trumpet covered quite a time of turbulence and change as the world emerged from under the papal primacy.
In the years following 1798 much of the western world experienced a "Great Awakening" in religious matters.

The Millerite movement took place as the 6th trumpet was ending in 1840, and led into the 7th trumpet which began in 1844.