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Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets [Re: dedication] #199039
09/02/25 12:47 AM
09/02/25 12:47 AM
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Revelation 10 and the Adventist Message

Revelation 10 is situated between the sixth trumpet and the seventh trumpet.
It points to time when the sixth trumpet is ending and the seventh is about to begin.

A glorious heavenly Messenger is depicted;
10:2 And he had in his hand a little book open:

People may argue over what this little book represents, but back about 200 years ago there was quite a firm understanding that it was the book of "Daniel".

The French Revolution had happened, the papacy's political power had been hugely curtailed. People were studying the prophecies like they never remembered them being studied before.

Before the French Revolution took place, Protestant Bible students (most Protestants based their prophetic studies on the historicist method) suggested a range of possibilities as to about when the 1260 year period started and ended. But with the rise of Napoleon and his new code of laws, and the exile of the pope by French general Berthier, there was, for a brief moment, agreement among Protestant scholars, that the 1260 years had ended. In 1798.

All over we have reports of people opening their Bibles and studying the prophecies following 1798. The book of Daniel began to open up!

What was actually sealed up in the book of Daniel"
Interestingly, the Book of Daniel includes three texts where the sealing of at least a part of the book is mentioned, and each case the context refers to the end of time.

1. Daniel 12:4: ??Shut up the words, and seal the book, until the time of the end.??

2. Daniel 12:9: ??Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end.??

3. Daniel 8:26: ??Seal up the vision, for it pertains to many days hence.??


The time lines had been sealed -- until the time of the end.

William Miller believed the little book in the Heavenly Messengers hands was the book of Daniel. He eagerly studied it's messages.

Ellen White gave a clear --
Quote
The book that was sealed was not the book of Revelation, but that portion of the prophecy of Daniel which related to the last days. The Scripture says, "But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased" (Daniel 12:4). When the book was opened, the proclamation was made, "Time shall be no longer." (See Revelation 10:6.) The book of Daniel is now unsealed, {2 Selected Messages, page105}


James White fully agreed writing in his "Life Sketches" pp 210-211:
Quote
1. The angel, in a most solemn manner, swore that there should be time no longer. This does not mean.. the angel declared that, time as measured by days, months and years, would cease; for the next verse speaks of the "days" of the voice of the seventh angel.
2. The angel holds in his hand, as he swears upon the subject of time, a little book open. It may be inferred from this language, that this book was at some time closed up. This was true of the book of Daniel. "But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book, even to the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased." Dan. 12,4 It was to be sealed only to the time of the end, when it was to be opened, knowledge of the subject of which it treats should be increased, and many run to and fro in the Scriptures and obtain knowledge upon the subject. If this open book in the hand of the angel represents the unsealed book of Daniel, how forcible the application of his solemn oath to the manner in which the close of prophetic time was proclaimed in 1844.
"But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God shall be finished, as he had declared to his servants, the prophets." Verse 7.
Why introduce the sounding of the seventh angel thus, unless his sounding commenced with the termination of the prophetic time?


Revelation 10, verses 8 to 10, deals with the eating of the little book and its sweetness in the mouth and bitterness in the belly. Eating, in biblical symbolism, often represents internalizing as we see in John 6 in Jesus sermon on eating "Him"! Internalizing the gospel message, fully taking in God?s Word?making it a part of oneself.

Those Millerites did make it part of themselves -- they believed! Jesus was coming very soon. The message was sweet, soon all the problems of this world would cease and heaven would be their home, heaven with Jesus!
But bitterness followed. Not because Jesus isn't come soon -- He is coming soon! But there was still work to be done, both in heaven and on earth, just prior to that coming.

The third angel's message (Rev. 14) needed to go forth.

Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets [Re: dedication] #199094
09/21/25 01:49 PM
09/21/25 01:49 PM
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Revelation chapter 10 and 11 are situated in time between the ending of the sixth trumpet and beginning of the seventh trumpet. They describe events that took place in 1790's (French Revolution, end of papal and kingly power) to 1844 (beginning of seventh trumpet).
They mark the events that bring all the long timelines prophesized in Daniel to their end. (Rev. 10:6)
They announce the beginning of the "time of the end". (Rev. 10:7) The beginning of Christ's last work in the heavenly sanctuary(Rev. 11:15-19). The seventh Trumpet covers the "time of the end" the "judgment" and final restoration.
They announce that God's people will have thought they had preached their last message, but no, the seventh angel was to sound, and they had to prophesy again (Rev. 10:11) -- the time had come to proclaim the three angel's message to the world. (Rev. 14) The last urgent call to worship the Creator, for the hour of judgment was come, (Rev. 14:7)-- the heavenly court was seated, the books were opened and Jesus was brought to the Ancient of Days and now stands before that court (Dan. 7:10,13) naming the citizens of His soon to be established glorious kingdom, marking their permanent entry in the Book of Life, (Rev. 3:5)

During the seventh trumpet the truth of God's ark of the covenant in the Most Holy Place in heaven, is seen (Rev. 11:19) God's ten commandments are still under the mercy seat. The last battle against those who "keep God's commandments and have the testimony of Jesus" (Rev. 12:17) will rage.

But God delivers His people, the sky rolls back as a scroll (Rev. 6:14) and those commandments, now no longer under the mercy seat are revealed, and the blessing "Here is the patience of God's saints, here are they that keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus" is spoken. And all realize that indeed Jesus is KING of kings and Lord of lords.
A day of wonder and rejoicing for God's people, but a day of reckoning, desperation and eternal lose and death, for those who resisted and fought against God's longsuffering, saving, cleansing love.

Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets [Re: dedication] #199145
10/20/25 04:32 PM
10/20/25 04:32 PM
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I began reading Cliff Goldstein's autobiography "An Adventist Journey" . Just read the first few chapters so far. Yet one thing stood out for me, in regard to the value of the historicist understanding of prophecy.

Goldstein, in his youth, was a very secular (though Jewish) person, deeply interested in scientific information and atomic and subatomic, quantum fields, etc. etc. that defined his image of reality. Theology and stories about God and gods, all fell into an unrealistic heap of myths and legends not worthy of serious thought.

What really challenged His world view, was not theology (not at first) but historicist interpretation of Biblical prophecy. For someone whose worldview rested totally on provable information, it was the historicist interpretation of Biblical prophecy that pried open his mind to a reality that there was a "God" who knew the future. There was a powerful intelligence above and beyond the material available for scientific and philosophical study.

Just a short quote from pages 29-30.

Quote
Think about it: I, in total ignorance of Adventists (in fact they hadn't told me what religion they were)...all sat in the health food store for my first Bible study. Daniel 2. ...We went through the king's dream, the death decree, all that, coming to the statue and then to the interpretation: Babylon, Media-Persia, Greece, Rome. I will never forget what followed...the breakup of Rome into the nations of modern Europe, reading the texts, "And as the toes of the feet were partly of iron and partly of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly iron and partly fragile. As you saw iron mixed with ceramic clay, they will mingle with the seed of men, but they will not adhere to one another, just as iron does not mix with clay (Dan,. 2:42-43)
Having lived in Europe, having travelled in Europe, having studied European history, I was amazed at what I had just read. Some of these nations strong, some fragile? That's always been Europe. ..Mingle themselves with the seed of men? Europeans, from plebe to princes, have been intermarrying for centuries. And as far as not adhering to each other. Please!
Between 1648-1789 for example, the European powers fought about 48 wars. Two World Wars in the 20th century alone. The 60th anniversary in 2017 of the European Union was cause of great celebration because it was the longest time in 2000 years that the nations of Europe were not spearing, javeling, bombing or gassing and shooting each other in mass, with the exceptions of the Balkans and now the Ukraine....
I looked up, tears in my eyes, and said to those in the health food store, "It's all true! It's all true!" Here in my hands was logical, rational, empirical evidence of God's existence and for His foreknowledge and sovereignty.


And that is the beauty of the Historicist approach!
It lays a firm foundation that God is real. He knows! His Word is true.
The historicist interpretation takes us through events that have happened showing the battle between hosts of evil against the Host of the LORD.
The prophecies don't stop in past history, historicism is a continuing story -- it continues on to the end of war, taking us on into the future with its map showing the methods and development of forces of the past to help us understand how these forces will executed the events of the future.
Historicism verifies that God's prophesy is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets [Re: dedication] #199146
10/21/25 05:27 PM
10/21/25 05:27 PM
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Scholars like to point out chiastic structures in the prophecies.
Do Revelations "sevens" follow a chiastic structure?
Maybe?

CHURCHES
Deals with people's response to Christ.

A. Ephesus The first church embraces the full gospel message and with patience and perseverance labors for Christ. They began with fervent love in Christ, BUT they are loosing that love.

.....B. Smyrna The struggling church, faithfully clinging
.....to Christ, but facing sever opposition.

.........C. Pergamos The rise of the papacy, and the
.........call to hold fast and not deny Christ and His faith.

.............D. ThyatirTime of dominance of the papacy,
...............but her punishment is promised. Christ will win!
............... Hold fast.

.........C. Sardis The wounding of papacy.
.........Reformers enlightened concerning God's grace.
.........They work for Christ, but their work is not perfect.
.........Promise overcomers will receive white robes.

.....B. Philadelphia The struggling church that loves
.....the Lord, seeking truth, but facing opposition.

A. Laodicea The last church embraces message. It believes it has everything, but lacks fervent love in Christ and is urged to seek a relationship with Him. Those who open hearts door to Christ will have an everlasting close relationship with Him!!


THE SEALS
Spreading and accepting the gospel message

A. The first seal embraces the gospel message and with power and conviction goes forth to bring it to the world.

.....B. The second seal is a struggling church, facing opposition
.....The blood of the martyrs spreads the message.

.........C. The third seal, papacy arises. Truth is harder to
.........find, people need to weigh information to find truth.

.............D. The fourth seal, dominance of the papacy
...............Gospel message seems obliterated, dead, trampled.

.........C. The fifth seal. Papacy is challenged, loosing power, yet
.........fighting back. People receive gospel light of truth, and
.........millions loose their lives sharing it. Cry for God to judge.
.........Promise, He will judge, and give them white robes.

.....B. The sixth seal, the struggling church looking for Christ's
..... return amid mounting opposition, is promised that the
.....armies seeking their destruction will run in terror to the
..... mountains to get away from Christ.

A. The last seal is silence. The message has done its work. God's people are sealed.
The silence when He comes -- in which group will we find ourselves? Running away from Him, or rejoicing to meet Him in the air?

THE TRUMPETS
The results of turning against Christ
Trumpets are not about a single moment in time, but each cover a period of time.

A. The first trumpet concerns Jerusalem, a nation privileged above all nations. Holding the oracles of God, and having the Redeemer born into their race and dwelling physically among them. Their destruction an awful result of spurning His grace and seeking to destroy His messengers. It parallels with the last trumpet as the fall of Jerusalem is is an example of the fall of the whole world.

..... B. The second trumpet focuses on a "mountain" or
.....powerful empire which first sought to suppress Christianity,
.....then seemed to accept it, but persecution did not end,
.....by uniting church and state it actually increased it.
.....That empire, once the first republic, crashed into the sea
.....of humanity casing intense upheaval.

.........C. The third trumpet warns of a system arising
.........that would pollute the living water of the gospel.
.........Turn it into bitter wormwood.


..............D. The fourth trumpet, reveals the papal dominance
...............which brings darkness as the Gospel message
...............seems obliterated, eclipsed.

.........C. The fifth trumpet. Byzantine Empire separated from
.........the Papacy. Crusaders attacked and plundered them,
.........but Byzantine was restored to power, and given 150
......... years more of grace to separate fully from Papal error
.........and seek Christ and be a witness of God's water of life,
.........instead of the "wormwood". God could have saved them
......... from the Turks, had they turned to Him. But they didn't.
.........Thus, like Jerusalem, their capital city was destroyed and
.........they were scattered.

.....B. The sixth trumpet, is an explosion of information
..... world wide. The accumulated wisdom in the east released
.....The Turks aggressive expansion helps Protestantism.
.....Development of Colonialism, world travel. Much war. During
.....this time church and state was dismantled. The last day
.....powerful republic emerges. Power shifted from east to the west.

A. The last trumpet announces the endtime. God raises up a church giving it the sanctuary and endtime message, the gospel message -- an urgent message (the three angel's message) of repentance and turning back to the Creator in faith and obedience.
Truth will be revealed (though many reject it) the thunder and lightening will take place, final justice is executed and Christ will reign.






Re: Value of Revelation's Historicist Trumpets [Re: dedication] #199216
11/13/25 01:20 PM
11/13/25 01:20 PM
dedication  Online Content OP
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Seen in chiastic structures the seven churches, seals and trumpets all follow a similar pattern.
They begin with the bright glory of the first advent of Christ!
Then they descend into many centuries of gray darkness. The bright glory of the first advent being covered and reaching it's darkest (almost obliterated) at the mid point. This is followed by intense and troublous activity as the gospel reemerges and ends in final glorious victory!

Rev. 8:12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day had light only a third part of it,

The question: Why this emphases on the "darkness" which seemed to triumph at the midpoint of the history of Christianity? Is there something about it that we need to know?

These "middle" years known as the "dark ages" have an important message which, if dismissed as having nothing to do with the future, robs people of understanding much of the richness of the final triumph over darkness.

The emphases of the 1260 years in Daniel and Revelation (Daniel 7:23-25, 12:7, Revelation 11:2-3, 12:6, 12:14) alerts us this is important!
What, according to those prophetic words, do we find was happening during this period? It's a time when earthly dominion by a power that usurps God's authority and the rights of the individual wields control, a time of intolerance and persecution, a time when all that witnesses for God and the gospel is disregarded, people witness at peril of their very lives, a time when God's church, (the symbolic woman) is driven into the wilderness simply to survive.

Today the world fears of darkness coming by means of technological advanced weapons of destruction being unleashed, as a final world war leaves the world in rumbles, or a super covid bug wipes out humanity, or a total economic crash, as the great things to be feared. Yet those are not the primary concern of the prophecies. There's no doubt that terrible trouble is ahead, however, what do these prophecies emphasize as the greatest threat? The greatest thing to be "feared"?

What will bring a dark age back? What should be feared? It's political and religious dominance united in a rule by force, forced religious ritual, while the righteousness in Christ is ignored or belittled; personal conviction and private thinking stifled.

One lesson to learn from the "Dark Ages" is obvious, when church unites with the government in order to gain its end, replacing personal conviction with their version of piety, and the church calls on the government for aid to enforce their dogmas upon the people, civilization is not saved, it dies, true religion in obedience and trust to and in our Savior's leading is oppressed, while a form of devotion (with its adjusted commandments) is enforced.

This is why there is so much emphases in Revelation on what happened in the past, for that is the true danger that will force itself upon the world in the future.

Why is this greater to be feared than other disasters?

The greatest to be feared is that which tries to break our connection with our Savior.

The overcomers are they that resist the beast, his image and mark, and with patient endurance keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. Rev. 14:9.10,12

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

In the end, all tyranny shall end. They may fight against the Lamb, "but the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. Rev. 17:14
Revelation 21:6-7 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.



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