I think
Walter Veith & Martin Smith - 228 Who Is The King Of The South - Can We Overcome Sin
mostly do a good job explaining the king of the South and the King of the North.

If Veith's presentation encourages people to put their full faith in Christ to overcome sin and stand for truth, even when powers stand against them, that is great!!l.

However, I think there is more to Daniel 11.


When I've listened to Tim Rosenberg's thoughts on Daniel 11, I've sensed a "yes, finally someone is following consistent biblical methods of interpretation and making sense of Daniel 11." That sense has grown stronger in the last few months!

Pr. Tim Roosenberg Connects Daniel 11 to Today?s Middle East Crisis


Has the king of the North (Rev. 13 shows the union of the two beasts that work together as king of the north) come out like a whirl wind to "overflow" radical Islam. (subdue the radical side of the king of the South) which, by the way, does not believe in a sin pardoning, Savior.

Is the king of the north getting moderate Islam to align themselves with the king of the north (christian world)?
And lastly -- when those two steps are accomplished will the loud cry go forth with great power (especially in countries where it was forbidden previously) and during that short open window, many will accept Christ and yes, follow Him in obedience and truth, and escape (to Christ's side, which is neither king of north nor king of south) before the final fury when the king of the north goes out to destroy but comes to his end.
But listen to presentation - click the link just a paragraph above.

That one has me scratching my head a bit..

Ok, this one comes from a critique by a Adventist of Uriah Smith pointing to Turkey as the KON with a quote from 'Dr. Norman McNulty'...

"When writing about end time prophecy, Ellen White follows the same line of progression as the Bible that we mentioned earlier:

Babylon > Medo-Persia > Greece > Pagan Rome > Western Europe > Papal Rome

Let's briefly look at an example from Scripture:

"And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done." (Daniel 11:36.)


In commenting on this, Dr. Norman McNulty says this:

"Uriah Smith and other contemporaries placed the king of the north as France through verse 39, and Turkey as the king of the north from that point. However, based on Scripture and the flow of history in Daniel 11, it becomes clear that the king of the north remains papal Rome through the remainder of the chapter. The SDA Bible Commentary notes that ?king? is preceded by a definite article ?the? indicating that this king has already been referred to, likely in the preceding five verses. 177 Furthermore, when looking at the description of this ?king? in verse 36, it is helpful to see parallels from other parts of Daniel and the rest of Scripture to come to an understanding of who this ?king? is in verse 36.

By comparing Scripture, clearly the king of the north in Daniel 11:36 still refers to papal Rome. Claiming infallibility and attempting authoritatively to change Gods law are among the exalting, magnifying, and 'marvellous words' spoken against Him. Papal Rome had the longest prospering domination (1,260 years) out of all the kingdoms in Daniel.

As noted in Daniel 8:19, 'indignation' is Gods indignation against papal Romes sins of persecution, which continued until 1798. Daniel 8 reveals that the judgment for this indignation began in 1844 at the end of the 2,300-day prophecy." (McNulty, Norman. Daniel: Practical Living in the Judgment Hour, p. 264-265; Kindle Edition.)


What we have to remember is that while the pioneers were godly men and women, they weren't always right. In fact, in the early days, they were wrong on a lot of things. But, they didn't stay there. They grew in understanding the Bible, and as God revealed more and more Truth to His fledgling Remnant, they accepted it, and lived in obedience to this Truth.

So why would Ellen White recommend a book with errors? There are at least a couple of reasons, I believe.

First, she endorsed it for its overall value, not for any perfection or belief it was inspired. It wasn't inspired and certainly wasn't perfect. But it taught core Seventh-day Adventist doctrines, such as the 2,300 day/year prophecy, the Sabbath, the Investigative Judgment, etc..

Secondly, Smith's book helped fill a void in the modern Christian world. Remember, God raised up the Millerite movement, and later the SDA movement, at a time when God was bringing the attention of modern Christianity back to the Sanctuary Truth that the antichrist had cast down and trampled on. There was still so much to learn and teach, even fore the pioneers of this Remnant Movement.

What concerns me is how many within the Seventh-day Adventist movement almost worship the pioneers, treating them as if they are the Bible. We have to remember, while these were godly men and women, there were some cherished beliefs that they eventually had to give up, because they did not line up with Scripture. The belief in Turkey as the King of the North was one of them. Ellen White herself stated we have a lot to learn, and a lot to unlearn.

I'll leave you with this:

"We have many lessons to learn, and many, many to unlearn. God and heaven alone are infallible. Those who think that they will never have to give up a cherished view, never have occasion to change an opinion, will be disappointed. As long as we hold to our own ideas and opinions with determined persistency, we cannot have the unity for which Christ prayed." (Selected Messages, vol. 1, p. 37.)" https://www.theadventtruth.com/blog/egwandthekingofthenorth

Here is also a very good explanation on Daniel 11..
"The contents of Daniel form a prophetic pattern. The various prophecies start at the time, or near the time, when Daniel was living, and they proceed forward from that point until the second coming of Christ, with each subsequent prophecy giving greater detail about the future.

Daniel 2: the multi-metal man prophecy starts with Babylon and goes through Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, fractured Europe, and the coming of Christ.
Daniel 7: the four beasts prophecy starts with Babylon and goes through Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, fractured Europe, then papal Rome and the coming of Christ.
Daniel 8 & 9: the ram and the goat prophecy starts with Medo-Persia being overthrown by Greece, followed by the initial rise of pagan Rome and its eventual transformation into its papal form. But this prophecy gives more detail, specifying how long until the Messiah would come and revealing Satan's counterattack to infect the minds of people with a false understanding of God?s law and what Christ achieved, which is then followed by the end-time people of God being cleansed from sin and being made ready to meet Jesus and, finally, culminating in the second coming of Christ.
Then Daniel 11, our focus for this blog, is the last in this series of prophecies and begins again with events occurring in Persia at the time of Daniel.

Daniel 11:1-4: The vision is given during the third year of Cyrus's reign and references three more kings to arise, followed by a fourth king more powerful than the rest, but who would have his empire broken up and parceled out to the four winds ? i.e., four points of the compass. The three kings to follow Cyrus were Cambyses (530?522 B.C.); the False Smerdis (522 B.C.); and Darius I (522?486 B.C.). The fourth was Xerxes (486?465 B.C.), who stirred up the Greeks (vv. 2) and eventually, the empire was conquered by Alexander the Great (336?323 B.C.), who died at the height of his power and whose kingdom was broken into four regions (vv. 3, 4).
Daniel 11:5-14: Depicts the battles between the Hellenistic dynasties after the death of Alexander. There are various Bible commentaries that can give the specific historical events corresponding to these verses. The king of the North represents the portion of Persia corresponding to ancient Babylon, the Syrian portion, while the king of the South represents Egypt.
Daniel 11:16-28: In verse 16, we have the appearance of Rome, the kingdom that establishes itself in the ?Beautiful Land,? which refers to the place where God dwells with His people. In verse 22, this power kills the prince of the covenant, which is a reference to the crucifixion of Jesus, thus confirming this section refers to pagan Rome.
Daniel 11:29-39: These verses transition us from literal Israel to spiritual Israel, those who are like Abraham in character and faith, and from pagan Rome as the king of the North to Christian Rome as the king of the North.
The theme that emerges is that the two kings (North and South) represent two philosophies that carry down through time.

The North (Babylon/Persia/Rome) represents powers that claim to believe in God but that use the methods of this sinful world, specifically the imposition of law and the coercive force of the state. Nebuchadnezzar claimed to believe in Daniel's God yet used imposed law to enforce it (Daniel 3:28, 29); Darius claimed to believe in Daniel's God yet used imposed law to enforce it (Daniel 6:23?27); and eventually pagan Rome became papal Rome, which claims to represent God but infects all Christianity with the imposed-law lie that leads to legal religiosity in Christianity, thus mispresenting God (Daniel 7:20-25). So the king of the North is the system that merges a belief in God (church) with human imposed-law methods (state) forming religious imperialism.

The South (Egypt) signifies powers that deny God, as Pharaoh famously said, "who is God that I should obey him"? (Exodus 5:2). The king of the South began its final (end-time) assault on the king of the North with the French Revolution, which denied all gods and enthroned the goddess of reason, laying the foundation for the rise of atheism, humanism, and secularism in the Western world, which has been advancing against the king of the North ever since.

One of the founders of the Adventist church wrote in the book, The Great Controversy, the following:

'The great city' in whose streets the witnesses are slain, and where their dead bodies lie, is 'spiritually' Egypt. Of all nations presented in Bible history, Egypt most boldly denied the existence of the living God and resisted His commands. No monarch ever ventured upon more open and highhanded rebellion against the authority of Heaven than did the king of Egypt. When the message was brought him by Moses, in the name of the Lord, Pharaoh proudly answered: 'Who is Jehovah, that I should hearken unto His voice to let Israel go? I know not Jehovah, and moreover I will not let Israel go.' Exodus 5:2, A.R.V. This is atheism, and the nation represented by Egypt would give voice to a similar denial of the claims of the living God and would manifest a like spirit of unbelief and defiance. 'The great city' is also compared, 'spiritually,' to Sodom. The corruption of Sodom in breaking the law of God was especially manifested in licentiousness. And this sin was also to be a pre-eminent characteristic of the nation that should fulfill the specifications of this scripture (p. 269).

The writer then goes on to identify the French Revolution as fulfilling this description. France was the power that entered Rome and took the pope captive in 1798, ending the 1260-year reign of the church-state union and ushering in the rise of atheism, humanism, and secularism. The king of the South, which represents atheism, secular humanism, godless liberalism, and progressivism, began its final assault against the king of the North (church-state imperialism) with the French Revolution. Today, the king of the South is continuing its strong push against the king of the North, but things are about to change. Let's examine the final verses of chapter 11.

Daniel 11:40-45: These verses describe the events pertinent to our world today. There are a variety of interpretations and applications from various Bible scholars, which I reviewed in a previous Bible study.
Here, we will examine what I think is most likely depicted in these verses, yet I remain open to updating my views as history unfolds. I am not being dogmatic, but I?m putting these ideas out for study and consideration by others. So please, if you have insights to improve this explanation, please share them.

***

Verse 40: "At the time of the end the king of the South will engage him in battle, and the king of the North will storm out against him with chariots and cavalry and a great fleet of ships. He will invade many countries and sweep through them like a flood." (NIV84).

The time of the end refers to the period before the second coming of Christ. The king of the South (atheism, secular humanism, godless liberalism, progressivism) will attack the king of the North (Christianity and its various agencies that seek to promote their religion via coercive governments such as prohibition of alcohol in the early 20th century, laws restricting marriage to one man and one woman, laws against abortion, laws limiting homosexuals in the military, etc.).

Over the past two centuries, we have seen the king of the South (secular humanism) pushing hard against the king of the North (religious imperialism) and making major gains. Yet the prophecy doesn?t end there. It says that the king of the North will storm out against the king of the South. And if our understanding of this prophecy is correct, that means we are on the cusp of seeing a resurgence of religious conservatism gaining political power, which will aggressively overthrow and destroy the king of the South (secular humanism). A majority of people in America are going to get pushed too far by the extremism of the godless to the point that they aggressively react and storm out against it, ultimately taking control of the government to pass and enforce their religious laws.

Nationalism is conservatism (self-protective, in-group survival, strong boundaries, isolating, withdrawing), which is king of the North activity. As events occur that increase the sense of chaos, threat, insecurity (pestilence, food shortages, financial pressures, war, climate change, violence, riots, etc.), fear will drive people back toward conservative stances (king of the North). When times are good, such as periods of relative peace and prosperity, cultures tend to move toward progressive agendas. Thus, as the king of the South gains power and moves its agenda forward, society becomes more decadent, overextending until its economy falters, then, when this is combined with the biblical events of the last-day 'time of trouble' (increasing violence and natural disasters, pestilence, wars, terrorism), it will build support for a conservative agenda that empowers the forces of the king of the North to storm back.

***

Verse 41: "He will also invade the Beautiful Land. Many countries will fall, but Edom, Moab and the leaders of Ammon will be delivered from his hand" (NIV84).

The Beautiful Land refers to the place where God dwells with His people. The philosophy of the king of the North seeks to invade the hearts and minds of God's commandment-keeping people because they value conservative principles and a belief in God. If they are not careful, many of God's people will be caught up in the religious power-play that seeks to oppose the king of the South. People from around the world will fall for this approach and join in the Christian church-state resurgence.

Throughout Daniel 11, the kings of the North and the South fight one another, with the Beautiful Land (God's people) caught in the middle. God's people are not to be identified with either the king of the North (religious imperialism) or the king of the South (secular humanism) but are to be separate and distinct. It is one of Satan's traps to seduce people into one of these two philosophical and political camps.

Edom (descendants of Esau), Moab, and Ammon (descendants of Lot) were nomadic and represent people who did not join with fixed human nations or governments. Thus, those who retain their independence, liberty, and freedom, and therefore think for themselves, do not go along with the merging of church and state and will not come under the power of the king of the North.

***

Verses 42, 43: "He will extend his power over many countries; Egypt will not escape. He will gain control of the treasures of gold and silver and all the riches of Egypt, with the Libyans and Nubians in submission" (NIV84).

Egypt is synonymous with the king of the South and, thus, with atheism, secular humanism, godless liberalism, and progressivism and will not escape the counterattack of the king of the North (religious imperialism; church-state union). The king of the North will take control of the assets previously controlled by the king of the South ? media, commerce, and property. In the Bible, Libya and Nubia (or Ethiopia) represent Africa (excluding Egypt), which represents that various racial groups will submit to the authority of the king of the North. It may also mean that much of the support for this worldwide resurgence in religious imperialism will come from people of color. In fact, the nations today with the highest percentage of people that remain religiously conservative and are supportive of church imperialism are found in Africa and Latin America.

***

Verse 44: "But reports from the east and the north will alarm him, and he will set out in a great rage to destroy and annihilate many."

In Scripture, the east and the north are often associated with God:

"Now the LORD God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden" where God created humankind (Genesis 2:8 NIV84).
God's glory is described as coming from the east: "I saw the glory of the God of Israel coming from the east" (Ezekiel 43:2 NIV84).

God's glory is another way of saying God's character of love. Thus, the character of God, His true methods and principles, being proclaimed and revealed will alarm the king of the North.

Jesus describes His second coming as coming from the east: "For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man" (NIV84).

Revelation describes God's angels as having the seal of God and coming from the east to seal the people of God:
"Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: ?Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God" (7:2, 3 NIV84).

The king of the North is alarmed at the messengers from God who bring the truth that seals God?s saints.
Moses was instructed to place the table that contained the showbread and wine on the north side of the sanctuary:
"Place the table outside the curtain on the north side of the tabernacle and put the lampstand opposite it on the south side" (Exodus 26:35 NIV84).

The showbread and wine represent the body and blood of Jesus, our Savior.

Job tells us that God comes out of the north:
"Out of the north he comes in golden splendor; God comes in awesome majesty" (37:22 NIV84).

Isaiah describes that Lucifer wanted to ascend to God's throne, which is in the north:
"How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, you who weakened the nations! For you have said in your heart: ?I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation on the farthest sides of the north" (Isaiah 14:12, 13 NKJV).

As the king of the North (religious conservatism united with state powers, forming religious imperialism) assails the forces of the king of the South (secular humanism), the people of God are caught in the middle of these two forces. A message from God goes to the world revealing that He is not in either of these movements ? that His law is not like human law. It is a message that illuminates the truth about God as Creator, showing that His laws are design laws ? the protocols upon which life is built to operate. It is a message that gives glory to God because it reveals His true character of love. It is a message that exposes both the lies of godlessness and the lies of false Christianity. It exposes as false the Christianity that teaches that God's law functions like human law and, thus, worships a god who is the source of inflicted pain and suffering as punishment for sin.

The true people of God cannot align with either of these human movements and are called by God to come out of them ? to be separate (Revelation 18:4). This message of God's true character and His design law alarms the king of the North (religious imperialism) and threatens his power, so he seeks to use all the means at his disposal to silence and destroy the voices of heavenly truth.

***

Verse 45: "He will pitch his royal tents between the seas at the beautiful holy mountain. Yet he will come to his end, and no one will help him" (NIV84).

The tent here represents the king of the North's system of beliefs, ideas, concepts, protocols, and authority. The seas represent the sea of humanity, the peoples of the world. The beautiful holy mountain represents the place where God dwells, the source of godly truth, the gospel. The king of the North puts his power, claims, lies, distortions, demands, threats, imposed laws, false theologies between God and the people of the earth. Yet he will ultimately fail and be destroyed by the second coming of Christ.

Both the king of the North (religious imperialism) and king of the South (secular humanism) represent Satan's agencies, with God's people caught in the middle. Satan uses these two sides against each other as a trap to seduce or trick God's people into choosing one of the two sides, when both sides are actually his.

Are we as Christians able to recognize that participating with either the king of the North or the king of the South is a trap of Satan, in which he gets people to think they are fighting for what is right while, in reality, they are joining with him?" https://comeandreason.com/daniel-11-end-time-events/

The above is an interpretation favored by some. It sort takes the pioneer interpretation in many points concerning the king of the south, but rejects their assumption that the king of the north are Ottoman Turks, and goes back to the understanding the king of the north is Papal Rome.

Seeing Daniel 9 as a battle between secularism and enforced Christianity does fit much of the battles and tensions in the world (especially in western countries) that is plaguing society, today. People want more forceful Christianity to combat the rising immorality and lack of standards.
Andreason does bring in thoughts from EGW which he fits into the verses in Daniel 11.

It's very true that neither side he ascribes as King of North and South, has the road of truth, both are traps.
If the above interpretation keeps people out of those traps of secularism and enforced global false worship, it's good--
if people believe this is the way its to be interpreted -- that's OK.
The ultimate goal -- is to be among those delivered when Christ stands up!!!!


Yet, for some reason I have always questioned that interpretation. It just doesn't quite fit the flow of Daniel in my mind. It may seem right to the Adventist mind, but will it convince people in the general public or those more knowledgeable concerning history and events?

Here's just some observations:


The first verses usually come under no dispute -- they are interpreted that way in most all Commentaries. But one quickly notices they are completely literal battles. The precedent set in Daniel 11, is literal. A southern princess is sent to marry the Northern king, she is betrayed along with her companions. Her brother (Also from the southern kingdom) seeks revenge, and so the story goes. Literal battles as power groups seek dominion over the territory.

However, concerning the symbolic attachments some like to give even here, remember both the king of the north and the king of the south were Greek Hellenistic rulers? The Southern kingdom was actually ruled by the Ptolemian. They were Greeks.
The Ptolemaic Dynasty was a powerful Hellenistic state extending from southern Syria in the east, to Cyrene to the west, and south to the frontier with Nubia. Alexandria became the capital city and a very important center of Greek culture and trade.

On the one hand the Ptolemais kept themselves distinct from the native Egyptians, tending to marry only people of their own lineage. Yet to keep the Egyptians submissive, they named themselves as the successors to the pharaohs, took on many Egyptian traditions, had themselves portrayed on public monuments in Egyptian style and dress, and participated in Egyptian religious life combining a grand mixture of Egyptian customs and Greek culture.
It's a bit of a stretch to portray the north and south as opposites in their relationship to the God of truth. The Greeks had quite a panorama of mythical gods. They had no trouble adding a few more "regional gods," Most Greeks would regard the Israelite God, as just a regional God for the Jews, not as THE God.

One interesting point during the Hellenistic period, was the translation of the Torah into Greek in Ptolemaic Egypt. The Greeks, were interested in all manner of "philosophies" so they had some interest in the Jewish religion, as they wanted a copy of the Jewish scriptures for the library at Alexandria. 72 Rabbis were sent to Alexandria to translate. The Septuagint, as it is known today, is the result of this translation and has had a significant impact on Christianity as well.

I also have a hard time seeing France as the king of the South. I realize the French Revolution was a terrible assault on Christianity, but how does that make France (a northern European Country) "the king of the South". It's true that Napoleon tried to conquer Egypt for a spell, but that was after the French Revolution, 1798-1801, and it ended in defeat. Yes, he won some hard fought battles there, but the English totally destroyed his fleet of ships, leaving his army stranded in the middle east. He didn't win against the Ottomans either. He did march against them (and that's what some cling to as the fulfilment of 11:40) and the Ottomans came out and pushed him back, but the rest of the text doesn't fit, and I don't think Andreason identifies the king of the north as the Ottoman.

Well, three years later, Napoleon secretly and privately fled back to France with a couple companions. Those left behind tried to maintain what Napoleon had started, but again it was the British that helped end that. So why aren't the British the "king of the south"? They are the ones that helped get Napoleon out of Egypt. The British were also very instrumental in the 1840 agreements to break the power of the Ottoman, and make them answerable to England and allies. But neither France nor England are the king of the south.

There was one thing about Napoleon's efforts in Egypt that was important-- He had brought a lot of scientists with him, who quietly studied things in Egypt and left remarkable information about that ancient culture for future generations to study. Also the Rosetta stone was discovered. (But that important stone also ended up in England.)

Something else that's a bit strange.
In those last verses the king of the south and Egypt are not the same.
The king of the south push at him (the king of the north): and the king of the north shall come against him (against the king of the south) like a whirlwind, with chariots, he enters the "glorious land" and overthrows many countries, including Egypt which doesn't escape, and plunders their silver etc.
So Egypt is just one of the countries that gets overrun here, when named it's not called the king of the south.

Also troubling is the move into symbolic interpretations, to the point the literal is ignored as he progresses further into the prophecy. Is this a symbolic prophecy (most is not) what basis is there to start interpreting some things as symbolic.

For a different interpretation that' being discussed here see: Discussions on Roosenberg's view