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Re: 7 - The Nature Of Man
[Re: Azenilto]
#104056
10/27/08 09:42 PM
10/27/08 09:42 PM
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Luke 23:43 ?Today I Tell You, or You Will Be With Me Today?
The problem of punctuation (or lack thereof) in the original
Introduction: Some people who believe in the immortality of the soul doctrine quote the text of Luke 23:43 as one of their best arguments to defend their ideas. They think that the wording in the text makes clear that the condemned man on the cross beside the cross upon which Christ died, who expressed repentance and faith in Him, was offered the assurance by the Savior that he would be with Him on that same day on Paradise.
However, there are important grammatical and other considerations to be weighed that show that things shouldn't be interpreted that way. Let's see:
1. Good Bible translations in different languages have the repenting condemned man asking Jesus to remember him "when you come in your kingdom". (vs. 42) That is how it appears in the Italian version of G. Deodatti, the Portuguese of Mattos Soares, the French published by the Alliance Biblique Universelle, as well as the highly reputed version of Louis Segond that reads-- Jesus: Souviens-toi de mois, quand tu VIENDRAS dans ton " [when you will COME. . .].
The King James version says "Remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom", not, "when you enter into thy kingdom". Since Jesus spoke often of the coming kingdom, and that clearly shows a rather distant future at that time ("When the Son of man shall come in his glory . . . then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory. . ."Matt. 25:31), he is asking to have secured a place in the kingdom at that occasion. Jesus assures him that "today", on that last of their lives, he would be in Paradise with Him. So, he didn't have to think of being remembered only on that far away time of His coming.
2. Certainly the repenting condemned man couldn't be with Jesus in Paradise on that day, because Jesus said He hadn't been there Himself on the third day after his death. He told Mary Madgalene at His appearance to her when he rose from the dead: "Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father." (John 20:17).
3. Also, a careful analysis of the text shows that the repenting condemned man didn't die on that same day because in John 19:31-33 it is said: "The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away. Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him. But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs."
Why break the legs of the condemned? Because a crucified man didn't die on the same day. Christ was an exceptional case and we know that He didn't die due to his wounds or hemorrhage, but from a broken heart. He died due to the moral pain of bearing the sins of the entire world. The others, however, didn't die immediately. There are some reports about a crucified man languishing for days.
J. B. Howell, for example, says:
“The crucified one remained hanging on the cross until, exhausted by pain, by weakening, by hunger and thirst, faced death. The suffering generally lasted three, sometimes even seven days”.
In this case, the Jews wouldn't permit that a criminal remained on the cross on the Sabbath day, for it was considered disrespectful of the sanctity of the rest day. "According to the costume, they broke the criminals" legs after having them removed from the cross, leaving them laying on the ground, until the Sabbath was over so that they won't escape. After the Sabbath was over, the two bodies were undoubtedly put back on their crosses until they died.
If it was necessary to break the legs of the two malefactors before sunset, it's because they hadn't died yet. They could even last in their struggle with life for one or two more days than the Master. So, it would be impossible that one of them be with Jesus in Paradise on the same day of the Savior's death.
4. There are authoritative Bible translations that has the Luke 23:43 reading harmonizing with the tenor of the Bible teaching regarding the reward of the saved ones, when Jesus comes. Let's see:
a) Trinitaria, in Portuguese, published in 1883 by the "Trinitarian Bible Society" of London, says: "Truly I tell you today, that you will be with Me in Paradise".
b) Emphasized New Testament, by Joseph B. Rotherham, printed in London in 1903, says: “Jesus! Remember me at the occasion that thou comest into thy kingdom. And He said unto him: Truly I tell unto thee this day: Thou shalt be with me in Paradise”.
c) The New Testament, by George M. Lamsa, according to the Eastern Text, translated from original Aramaic sources, has it this way: “Jesus told him: Truly I am telling you today, that you will be with Me in Paradise”
d) The Concordant Version, thus translates the text: “And Jesus said to him: ‘I am truly telling you today, you will be with me in Paradise”.
e) An important manuscript, the famous Curetonian Manuscript of the Syriac Version, that exists in the British Museum, thus translates the text: “Jesus said to him: Verily I tell you today, that you will be with Me in the Garden of Eden.”
And in a commentary of the Oxford Companion Bible, one finds this statement: “‘Today’ agrees with ‘I tell you’ to give emphasis to the solemnity of the occasion; it doesn’t agree with ‘you will be’.”
In the Appendix nb. 173 of the Oxford Companion Bible, it is clarified:
“The interpretation of this verse depends entirely on the punctuation, which is wholly based on human’s authority, for the Greek manuscripts had no punctuation up to the ninth century, and even at that time only a dot amidst the lines, separating each word. . . . The condemned man’s prayer referred also to that coming and that Kingdom, not to something happened on the day the words were uttered.”
And the commentary concludes, at the end of the same Appendix: “And Jesus said unto him: ‘Truly I tell you today’, or on that day when, soon to die, this man manifested such a great faith in the Messiah’s coming Kingdom, in which He will only be King when the resurrection occurs—now, under such solemn circumstances, I tell you: you will be with Me in Paradise.”
The expression “today”, related to the verb, is not redundant, but emphatic. It is found in other parts of the Bible. One can read, for example, Deut. 20:18; Zac. 9:12; Acts 20:26, and other texts. The fatal conclusion is that Luc. 23:43 is one more false pillar of dualism, a text taken out of its due context, which many take to defend a false doctrine, which stems from both Greek Platonist philosophy and heathenism in general.
Note: The different Bible version and other related commentaries above were not taken from their English original, but as quoted by Arnaldo B. Christianini’s book in Portuguese, Subtilezas do Erro [Subtleties of Error], and put back into English by me, which might not correspond exactly to the original wordings. The important feature certainly is their basic meaning.
A. G. Brito
Sola Scriptura Ministry
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Re: 7 - The Nature Of Man
[Re: Azenilto]
#104889
11/19/08 06:24 PM
11/19/08 06:24 PM
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In the edition of Proclamation! Magazine under consideration, dedicated to the subject of man's nature, there is no emphasis on man's destiny, which is regrettable, for it's so much important. If man's nature is immortal due to his possession of an immortal soul, that is a fact impossible to be detached from a study of man's destiny. And the Bible points to just TWO destinies either living forever in the presence of God and all the holy ones, or being separated forever from God.
Since the Bible presents two conditions at the end of man's journey to eternal salvation or eternal perdition. How does the understanding of man's nature related to the possession of an immortal soul is affect the fact that many will not be granted salvation, but will face perdition? What happens to his immortal soul or whole being under the circumstances of not being saved?
The popular notion is that they will be thrown into an eternally burning hell, an idea based on a few Bible texts that the Proclamation! folks decided not to deal with. But we will, since that is a very important subject, referred to in so many ways and so often in both Old and New Testaments.
Let's begin analyzing a text that I consider the real key to understand this subject of the eternal punishment of evildoers:* Mark 9:48: . . . where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.] This is a text that people mistake as to its meaning, thinking that it says that the soul never dies, and the hell fire is never extinguished.
But Christ is simply using a metaphor that had been employed by Isaiah long ago (cap. 66:24). There the Prophet speaks of the troops of the enemies of God, whose CADAVERS are left unburied, with worms consuming them. He uses that gory language to highlight the horror of the scene, but as the word cadaver is clearly mentioned, that is an indication of death, not of continuous existence of some immortal soul. Jesus speaks of "worms" that never die, and not "soul". The soul is soul, the worm is worm.
In Isaiah 34:9, 10 we find another example of hyperbolic language employed by John in the Revelation, as well as in Jeremiah 17:27 which speaks of a fire that burns the doors of Jerusalem being an "unquenchable ", however there is no fire burning the doors of Jerusalem these days.
Hyperbolic language is the use of words that "exaggerate" something they refer to in order to highlight its character. It's like in the Brazilian national anthem that, at a certain point, says, “Beloved and IDOLIZED motherland . . .. Actually, nobody idolizes literally the motherland. . .
In the New Testament the eternal judgment of Hebrew 6:2 doesn't refer to a process that has a beginning but not an end, rather is everlasting in its effects and consequences. And what about the eternal fire that burnt Sodom and Gomorrah, but is not burning these days any longer (see Jude 7)? After all, "the wages of sin is death" (Rom 6:23). In the Psalm 68:20 we read: "Our God is a God who saves; from the Sovereign LORD comes escape from death".
Conclusion: Clearly, the language that should PREVAIL in this paradox is that of the eternal death of these sinners, contrasted by Christ with life eternal of the redeemed: "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." (Mat. 25:46). Thus, the hyperbolical language utilized by Christ in Mark 9:48, about the worm that does not die, why use a worm to prove the immortality of the soul? It ends up revealing an excellent explanation of the eternal condition of the sinner's death, being, thus, another interpretative shot that backfires.
_______
Note: We have posted a series of articles that deal with the burning hell and final disposition of sin and sinners in another topic, for which we direct those who want to proceed examining this subject through didactic Bible studies, like “10 Reasons Why Revelation 20:10 Doesn't Prove the Theory of an Everlasting Burning Hell.
That is the link that leads directly to this series of studies:
http://www.maritime-sda-online.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=104887#Post104887
A. G. Brito
Sola Scriptura Ministry
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Re: 7 - The Nature Of Man
[Re: Azenilto]
#104892
11/19/08 06:28 PM
11/19/08 06:28 PM
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Just for a start, let's see one study regarding the subject that will be discussed in greater detail in the topic indicated:
10 REASONS WHY THERE WILL BE NO ETERNALLY BURNING HELLFIRE
1 -- Because everlasting life is a gift from God (Rom. 6:23) that the unsaved don't possess; on the contrary they "shall not see life". (John 3:36); "no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him". (1 John 3:15).
Note: Paul says in Romans 2:7 that those who will obtain life eternal are the ones who look for immortality. We don't go after something that we already possess.
2 -- Because the eternal torment would perpetuate and immortalize sin, suffering, pain, and that contradicts the divine revelation that those things will no more exist under the new conditions after Jesus' return (Rev. 2:14).
3 -- Because the universe would always keep a dark site, with billions of creatures living eternally in unending torments, with their existences thus preserved by God Himself, in Whom "we live, and move, and have our being." (Acts 17:28).
Note: The Bible informs that after God persecutes His enemies with "darkness", causing an "utter end" to those who are not His, "affliction shall not rise the second time." (Nahum 1:9).
4 -- Because the notion of an unquenchable fire, that burns eternally, is incompatible with the attribute of love and justice seen as characteristics of the divine character, and postulates the concept of an ire that is never consumed.
5 -- Because the Scriptures teach that the atoning work of Christ is to "put away sin", (Heb. 9:26), first of the individual, then, finally, of the entire universe. The plain result of Christ's sacrifice will be seen, not only in a redeemed people, but in this Earth totally renewed (Eph. 1:14).
6 -- Because the Bible indicates that only the saved ones will have incorruptible bodies (Fil. 3:20, 21 and 1 Cor. 15:35-55).
Note: The true believers in the thesis of an eternally burning hell face an immense difficulty to explain how the resurrected ungodly could be thrown into a fire that never consumes their non-incorruptible bodies.
7 -- Because Paul clearly speaks of eternal “destruction” of the sinners, who will be banished from God’s presence, and it is inconceivable an act of destruction that never completes itself, as if it were an eternal process (2 Thes. 1:7-10).
Note: Paul indicates that the "fires of vengeance" are still in the future and will be manifested at Christ's Second Advent, by which the notions of a hell already in operation become totally nonsense.
8 -- Because the same fire that causes the "perdition of ungodly men" operates the transformation of the planet, thus setting the stage for "new heavens and a New Earth, in which justice dwells." (2 Pet. 3:6-13).
9 -- Because the description of the punishment of the ungodly in Rev. 20:14, where the lake of fire is called "second death", confirms the many statements throughout the Scriptures, both in the Old and New Testaments, dealing with the final extinction of the sinners.
Note: Some of the texts that clearly describe that are: Psalm 37:9, 10, 20; 68:2; 92:7; Ezekiel 28:14-28; Zephaniah 1:14-18; Malachi 4:1-3; Matthew 10:28b; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10; 2 Peter 3:6-10; Revelation 21:8.
10 -- Because nothing else follows the description of the operation of the lake of fire, but for the detailing of the throwing into it of all the condemned beings, then occurring the description of new heavens and a New Earth . . . and there was no more sea [nor lake of fire] -- Rev. 21:1.
Note: Be it remembered that in the original Bible text there is no division of chapters and verses, thus in the description of the "destruction of the ungodly" there is a natural sequence, lacking the least information that the "lake of fire" jumps from the surface of the Earth, where it clearly occurs (see Rev. 20:7-10) to keep on burning in another location of the universe.
A. G. Brito
Sola Scriptura Ministry
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Re: 7 - The Nature Of Man
[Re: Azenilto]
#105045
11/23/08 03:48 PM
11/23/08 03:48 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Oh, my friend, I am sorry for having to go deep into all these different aspects of the discussion.
My suggestion is that you print everything and read it little by little as you commute in some train going/coming from work.
There will be more material coming, not condensed either. . . I would like to be able to give this to the pre-teens at church and trust that they can readily grasp the truth. What do you think?
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Re: 7 - The Nature Of Man
[Re: Mountain Man]
#105050
11/23/08 04:30 PM
11/23/08 04:30 PM
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As almost all these posts seem to be on topics other than this one, I will be separating these posts and making separate topics out of them. Depending on the topical nature of each post, these separate topics will be placed in more appropriate forums.
On second thought, as all these posts have something to do with the nature of man in various ways, that could still also be discussed as separate topics, as they were posted here as a part of this topic, I am leaving them here.
In His Love, Mercy & Grace, Daryl  John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
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Re: 7 - The Nature Of Man
[Re: Daryl]
#155118
08/16/13 09:34 PM
08/16/13 09:34 PM
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NON-SDA
Active Member 2019
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
Canada
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As almost all these posts seem to be on topics other than this one, I will be separating these posts and making separate topics out of them. Depending on the topical nature of each post, these separate topics will be placed in more appropriate forums.
On second thought, as all these posts have something to do with the nature of man in various ways, that could still also be discussed as separate topics, as they were posted here as a part of this topic, I am leaving them here. It's interesting that after more than a decade, the differences of opinions that fuelled this discussion have still not resolved themselves. Are people REALLY looking for the truth, or an opportunity to express themselves?
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Re: 7 - The Nature Of Man
[Re: Daryl]
#199702
07/10/26 04:33 AM
07/10/26 04:33 AM
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Global Moderator
Supporting Member 2024
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 7,420
Canada
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The doctrine concerning the state of the dead is foundational to understanding several other doctrines.
For example -- the doctrine of the sanctuary. If people go to heaven or hell when they die, the idea of an investigative judgment prior to the second coming no longer makes sense.
The resurrection -- why is it needed if people don't really die. If people are in heaven right after they die, then why have a resurrection? What's so special about the resurrection if they are already alive. Some say because they need their bodies. But why would anyone want the old, earthly body. The Bible promises life in glorious new spiritual bodies at the second coming.
Actually the whole second coming loses it's meaning and is presented in a very different way when people believe the dead aren't really dead.
Then of course there is spiritism and that whole deception.
When talking to people about some of our doctrines, it is often good to know their understanding of the state of the dead, as a lot of our beliefs just don't fit into their understanding of what happens to people after they die. To understand that people really die when then die, is an important subject which is often a prerequisite to understanding some our other doctrines.
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Re: 7 - The Nature Of Man
[Re: Daryl]
#199719
07/20/26 04:34 AM
07/20/26 04:34 AM
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Global Moderator
Supporting Member 2024
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 7,420
Canada
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The understanding of the State of the Dead
In light of the Cross
CHRIST IS THE LIFE
Without Him there is no life.
John 1:3-4 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life...
John 10:10 I (Jesus) am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life
CHOOSING THE WRONG LORD
By doubting their Creator and partaking of the tree of good and evil (the only place where Satan, Lucifer, could fill their minds with doubt about God, and tempt them to listen to him) humanity disconnected themselves from the One Who is Life.
Isaiah 14:12-14 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!...
For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation... I will be like the most High.
It was Satan's plan to get humanity on his side, against the Life Giver.
Satan can not give LIFE, he is the destroyer, the end of which is only and eternally death.
WHY DID ADAM AND EVE NOT DIE THE DAY THEY DISCONNECTED FROM LIFE?
They did begin to die.
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
But God...
Provided a substitute: Jesus!
The One Who is Life, would clothe Himself with Humanity, and die in their place.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
MANKIND HAS NO INNATE IMMORTALITY
Without Christ stepping in to die in our place, mankind would simply have perished. The end. No life. Eternal oblivion.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His One and only Son, that whosoever believes on Him, need not perish, but have eternal life.
1 Cor. 15:16,18,22 For if the dead rise not, (if there is no resurrection for the dead) then Christ was not resurrected :..Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. ... Since in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. (experience resurrection)
A "soul" is not something that is merely a part of the person. It's not something that can continue to live after the body dies. Rather, a soul, is the living, breathing, feeling, thinking person. The "soul" is not immortal, but dies when the body also dies.
Ez. 18:20 The soul that sins, it shall die
1 Peter 3:20 God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, resulting in a few, that is, eight souls who were saved by water .
THE HOPE FOR OUR LOVED ONES WHO REST (sleep) in the grave.
All will be raised:
Romans 5:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live
The next conscious moment for the deceased will occur at the resurrection.
All will experience a resurrection.
TWO RESURRECTIONS
Since Christ died for all, all will be raised. All are being called to come to Christ and receive His great gift of eternal life, but not all respond. Some turn their backs on their Redeemer, and their choice will be honored. Since they rejected LIFE, they die, not only the first but also the second death.
John 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Rev.22:17 Come and let him that hears say, Come. And.. whosoever will, let him take the water of LIFE freely,
Rev. 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that is part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power...
Rev. 22:4 And they shall see His face; and his name shall be in their foreheads ...the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
BUT
Rev. 20:15,14 And whosoever was not found written in the book of LIFE was cast into the lake of fire....This is the second death.
Last edited by dedication; 07/20/26 01:49 PM.
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