That's a good point as well Tom. Sometimes people can use "Amen" as a way to show appreciation for a musical performance as well. But the difference is this;

"Amen" has a biblical basis. It can be used for prayers, scripture reading, music and any form of communication coming from the pulpit. So it is less likely to be misconstrued as a form of applause than clapping, which can only be used appropriately in response to a musical performance or praise of human effort.

The reasons behind saying "Amen" can be found in the bible:

"And all the people shall answer and say, "Amen!'" Deut. 27:15-26

"Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from everlasting to everlasting! And all the people said, "Amen!" and praised the LORD." 1 Chron. 16:36

"And all the assembly said, "Amen!" and praised the LORD. Then the people did according to this promise." Neh. 5:13

"And Ezra blessed the LORD, the great God. Then all the people answered, "Amen, Amen!" while lifting up their hands. And they bowed their heads and worshiped the LORD with their faces to the ground." Neh. 8:6

"Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from everlasting to everlasting! Amen and Amen." Psalm 41:13

The instances of the use of "Amen" in the bible are too numerous to mention, while the only use of clapping is to gloat over the defeat of an enemy, whether it be good or bad.

My purpose is not necessarily to go on a crusade to end clapping in the church, but to educate anyone who may be interested, in the proper context of the use of biblical clapping, and to underscore the fact that it is NEVER used during worship in the bible. So don't fall for the excuses that are used to justify it and make it seem like it is somehow ordained by God.

Ya know, I have been having a struggle with that as well. What is really interesting is this. I am a white woman. I lived in Florida for about a month. The first week I went to a church that was mostly white people. It was nice, but the people ther only seemed to go through the motions of worship. They didn't even seem to notice that there were visitors. They seemed cold. They sat in silence throughout the service. The following week, my then-fiance and I went to a church that was predominantly African-American. They greeted us like long-lost friends. They hugged us. They talked to us. They included us. During the worship service, there were "AMENs!" shouted at the right times. I had never been to a church that was so alive! These people seemed to live what they believed. They accepted us where we were and loved us as we were. Now, which church do you think I went back to visit? I was used to the churches that had their own groups, left people out, etc. I was in those groups in my home church. Since that experience, I have tried to be as those in the second church I visited. I enjoyed the fellowship. I DIDN'T fall asleep!
As far as clapping is concerned.....I am still debating on that one.....

Stephanie

Hi Stephanie,

I have shared the same type of experience as well. Part of the reason this issue has interested me so much is because of the contrast I have seen between many of the complacent white churches, and some of the black churches which are located in poorer neighborhoods. It became glaringly obvious when a large apathetic white church began to advocate clapping as a means to liven up its members. It worked to a degree, but church seems more like a concert/meeting than a worship service.

I think that when a congregation is willing to vocalize their assent with a good hearty "Amen!" at appropriate times, they become more involved in what is happening and being said. But when we rely on applause, we relegate ourselves to being merely an observing "audience" instead of a participating "congregation."

[ July 22, 2004, 04:20 PM: Message edited by: Paul ]

Think of the Pharisees, the less real genuine religion they had, the more outward things they did to cover up the fact.

Really read and seriously ponder over the chapter in Great Controversy called "Modern Revivals". It talks of how in the last days many will do many outward excitement things because they dont have real religion.

The Roman Catholic Church with it's impressive displays, just there to cover up the lack of real religion.

The Great Controversy, page 566, paragraph 2
Chapter Title: Liberty of Conscience Threatened
"Many Protestants suppose that the Catholic religion is unattractive and that its worship is a dull, meaningless round of ceremony. Here they mistake. While Romanism is based upon deception, it is not a coarse and clumsy imposture. The religious service of the Roman Church is a most impressive ceremonial. Its gorgeous display and solemn rites fascinate the senses of the people and silence the voice of reason and of conscience. The eye is charmed. Magnificent churches, imposing processions, golden altars, jeweled shrines, choice paintings, and exquisite sculpture appeal to the love of beauty. The ear also is captivated. The music is unsurpassed. The rich notes of the deep-toned organ, blending with the melody of many voices as it swells through the lofty domes and pillared aisles of her grand cathedrals, cannot fail to impress the mind with awe and reverence.

This outward splendor, pomp, and ceremony, that only mocks the longings of the sin-sick soul, is an evidence of inward corruption. The religion of Christ needs not such attractions to recommend it. In the light shining from the cross, true Christianity appears so pure and lovely that no external decorations can enhance its true worth. It is the beauty of holiness, a meek and quiet spirit, which is of value with God."

The Great Controversy, page 248, paragraph 3
Chapter Title: Later English Reformers
"Now I would ask a strange question," said Latimer. "Who is the most diligent bishop and prelate in all England? . . . I see you listening and hearkening that I should name him. . . . I will tell you: it is the devil. . . . He is never out of his diocese; call for him when you will, he is ever at home; . . . he is ever at his plow. . . . Ye shall never find him idle, I warrant you. . . . Where the devil is resident, . . . there away with books, and up with candles; away with Bibles, and up with beads; away with the light of the gospel, and up with the light of candles, yea, at noondays; . . . down with Christ's cross, up with purgatory pickpurse; . . . away with clothing the naked, the poor, and impotent, up with decking of images and gay garnishing of stocks and stones; up with man's traditions and his laws, down with God's traditions and His most holy word. . . . O that our prelates would be as diligent to sow the corn of good doctrine, as Satan is to sow cockle and darnel!"-- Ibid., "Sermon of the Plough."

When a human being realizes he or she is spiritually empty, a person has to come up with all sorts of things to make up for the fact to make it appear they are holy. Whether it be clapping, swaying, shouting or whatever. Many long prayers, praying on the street corner, impressive displays, wedding rings, or whatever... Candles all over the church, crosses all over the church... Loud obnoxious singing... Jesus says in Revelation that He STANDS OUTSIDE THE DOOR AND KNOCKS... it is Jesus that is missing. We say unfortunately... "the church seems cold, let's liven it up" with all manner of outward display... instead of taking hold of the true remedy. "A form of godliness but denying the power thereof."

Claudia

Well Tom, I agree with you that it does not come naturally to many of us to express ourselves, especially in a place like church where we are surrounded by others. I also agree with you that there are other biblical ways of being involved in worship such as the ones you have described. But to say that we can't do something just because it does not come naturally, and that we need to substitute an audience entertainment response instead, is just plain defeatism.

I have been to many church services where an individual would try to get an "Amen," only to be answered with a mumble or two. But if the individual was motivated, they would not accept a lame response. They would say; "What? I can't hear you!" The "Amens" would get a little louder, but still not enough to show spirit. Then the individual would say something like; "Comon! I know your out there! What do you say?!!" And finally the whole congregation would come alive as if they had just been rescusitated. They would also usually remain alive for the rest of the service because they knew they had been demonstrated to be lathargic and comatose. They felt good when they finally broke out of their trance. So, I know that even though it does not come naturally, it can be done, and it is spirituall healthy when it is done. We just need motivation, and a realization of our spiritual condition. Jesus did not describe this period in church history as "Laodicea" for nothing. We are asleep. We are dead, and we are looking for a cosmetic cover up such as clapping, or humorous anecdotes to hide the fact that we are dead, just as Claudia has illustrated.

It seems strange to me that the pastors such as the one in my original post above, are willing to spend an entire sermon trying to encourage people to clap, using bible texts that are out of context to justify it. But they won't spend so much as a minute or two to encourage people to vocalize an occassional "Amen" which has true biblical support and a proper context.

Just an observation or two of my own....

In our church, we have a very diverse congregation and everyone expresses their worship in many ways. There are people who clap, there are people who say Amen, there are those who say nothing and those who are VERY outspoken....

The only time there is any real "applause" by a majority, is after a baptism. It has become a way to celebrate a persons decision to follow Christ in an audible and tangible way.

In viewing the diversity of our congregation, I have to agree with Tom that there may just be a lot of culture in the choice of expression of worship....

I also have to agree with Paul when he shows us from scripture that clapping is not a scripturally supported expression of worship. How many times have we repeatedly stated, at crusades & other times, that if it is not in the Bible, we do not believe it, and that you cannot base an entire belief on one single scripture...? I point out that Paul has said there may be nothing wrong with clapping only that it is wrong to try to scripturally prove that it is a Biblical method of worship!

One other point is that if God is accepting the worship - in whatever form it is offered, then we have no right to judge, as evidenced in the story of Micah & David (loincloth dancing in the streets by the king .... hmmmm....)

One final comment.... I'm a quiet person. I'm not comfortable with a loud amen, although I do say quiet amens when I am truly moved by something in the service. I am not uncomfortable when others express themselves in other, louder, ways.... However, there are times when amens can be completely unacceptable and not at all in accordance with true worship. I have seen a person disrupt a wedding and several meetings (including one where a black speaker used to such disruptions lost his concentration) by shouting out at completely inappropriate times....

Is worship not between a person & his God? Is there such thing as "corporate" worship? Or is all worship "personal"?

Sarah, you make a very good point. I have heard many prayers or sermons constantly interupted with loud and inappropriate "Amens," which can be very disconcerting. Sometimes it seems as if some people's egos just can't help but have the spotlight on them.

But thanks for recognizing the main thrust of my post, which is that we should not twist scripture to justify something.

I just signed in to become a member of this forum, partly because I think this is a relevent topic. I am a musician and when I play for church I would appreciate an "AMEN", because I consider that a Praise to God, I would hope no one claps for me. On the other hand if I play publicly for some Saturday night program or some such thing then Applause would be just fine. "AMEN", in my opinion, is praising the Lord, which is what I want to do with my music, Clapping is praising the performer.
Just an interesting note; at one vespers I attended, someone stood up and gave quite a performance singing some song, with a lot of motions and loud background music, and got a lot of applause, a few minutes later someone else got up and sang another song, and it was done with dignity and reverance, (my opinion) and they got a good AMEN, from the same audience. It seemed to me that one was praising the singer, the other was praising the Lord. Interesting the different reactions from the same audience.
I appreciate Pauls' post, especially part 2. I had done a study myself several years ago and came to a simular conclusion, that for the most part when the Bible mentions music and clapping and celebration it was usally at the dedication of a temple, or for some victory, or some such thing, and not as a part of regular worship.
Thanks,
David M.