HOME CHAT ROOM #1 CHAT ROOM #2 Forum Topics Within The Last 7 Days REGISTER ENTER FORUMS BIBLE SCHOOL CONTACT US

Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine Christian Family Fellowship Forums
(formerly Maritime SDA OnLine)
Consisting mainly of both members and friends of the Seventh-day Adventist Church
Welcomes and invites other members and friends of the Seventh-day Adventist Church to join us!

Click Here To Read Legal Notice & Disclaimer
Suggested a One Time Yearly $20 or Higher Donation Accepted Here to Help Cover the Yearly Expenses of Operating & Upgrading. We need at least $20 X 10 yearly donations.
Donations accepted: Here
ShoutChat Box
Newest Members
Trainor, ekoorb1030, jibb555, MBloomfield, Dina
1324 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums118
Topics9,208
Posts195,773
Members1,324
Most Online5,850
Feb 29th, 2020
Seventh-day Adventist Church In Canada Links
Seventh-day Adventist Church in Canada

Newfoundland & Labrador Mission

Maritime Conference

Quebec Conference

Ontario Conference

Manitoba-Saskatchewan Conference

Alberta Conference

British Columbia Conference

7 Top Posters(30 Days)
Rick H 30
kland 9
Daryl 2
July
S M T W T F S
1 2 3 4 5 6
7 8 9 10 11 12 13
14 15 16 17 18 19 20
21 22 23 24 25 26 27
28 29 30 31
Member Spotlight
Rick H
Rick H
Florida, USA
Posts: 3,171
Joined: January 2008
Show All Member Profiles 
Today's Birthdays
No Birthdays
Live Space Station Tracking
Here is a link to show exactly where the Space Station is over earth right now: Click Here
Last 7 Pictures From Photo Gallery Forums
He hath set an harvest for thee
Rivers Of Living Water
He Leads Us To Green Pastures
Remember What God Has Done
Remember The Sabbath
"...whiter than snow..."
A Beautiful Spring Day
Who's Online
7 registered members (dedication, Karen Y, daylily, TheophilusOne, 3 invisible), 2,293 guests, and 4 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Page 9 of 10 1 2 7 8 9 10
Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: APL] #153642
06/26/13 01:46 AM
06/26/13 01:46 AM
Daryl  Offline
OP
Site Administrator
23000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,126
Nova Scotia, Canada
Let me answer your question with another question.

Was forbidding Adam & Eve to eat from the tree in the midst of the Garden of Eden arbitrary?


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: Daryl] #153645
06/26/13 02:12 AM
06/26/13 02:12 AM
APL  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: Daryl
Let me answer your question with another question.

Was forbidding Adam & Eve to eat from the tree in the midst of the Garden of Eden arbitrary?
Absolutely not.

Is the Sabbath arbitrary?


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: APL] #153656
06/26/13 12:28 PM
06/26/13 12:28 PM
Daryl  Offline
OP
Site Administrator
23000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,126
Nova Scotia, Canada
Define arbitrary.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: Daryl] #153658
06/26/13 01:35 PM
06/26/13 01:35 PM
APL  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Webster 1828 dictionary:
Arbitrary
ARBITRARY, a. [L. arbitrarious.]

1. Depending on will or discretion; not governed by any fixed rules; as, an arbitrary decision; an arbitrary punishment.

Arbitrary power is most easily established on the ruins of liberty abused to licentiousness.

2. Despotic; absolute in power; having no external control; as, an arbitrary prince or government.

Webster 2010
1. subject to individual will or judgment without restriction; contingent solely upon one's discretion: an arbitrary decision.
2. decided by a judge or arbiter rather than by a law or statute.
3. having unlimited power; uncontrolled or unrestricted by law; despotic: an arbitrary government.
4. capricious; unreasonable; unsupported: an arbitrary demand for payment.
5. Math. undetermined; not assigned a specific value: an arbitrary constant.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: Daryl] #153660
06/26/13 02:16 PM
06/26/13 02:16 PM
Johann  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2014

Retired Pastor
3000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
Iceland
In his monumental work on the Sabbath, Sigve Tonstad deals with "arbitrary" in connection with the Sabbath as well as all of the commandments. If you consider Sabbath keeping as arbitrary or "a stern commandment" it "calls God's character into question" and this seems to be Luther's view, with little difference to the Roman Catholic view and it "calls God's character into question".

It is remarkable that when referring to the 10 commandments in Scripture they are termed a covenant. Any covenant is based on religious liberty and is not arbitrary.


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: Johann] #153699
06/28/13 01:37 AM
06/28/13 01:37 AM
dedication  Online Content
Global Moderator
Supporting Member 2022

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,501
Canada
God instituted the seven day week at creation.

It is very plainly stated that in six days God created the heavens and the earth and rested the seventh day -- blessing and sanctifying it.

This had nothing to do with the moon -- the moon wasn't even created until the fourth day.

The seven day cycle was set in motion at creation by the work and blessing of God.
The world may have lost it in different places and times,
but it was given again at Sinai.
It is a memorial to creation. That is not "arbitrary" any more than your birthday is arbitrary, or your wedding anniversary.

Six days the manna fell, double on the sixth day, none on the seventh. I see absolutely nothing in scripture that speaks of an eight or nine day week at the end of every month.

Since 29.5 is not divisible by 7, it is impossible to have six days of work, followed by one day of rest in a consistent pattern.
So every fourth week the lunar calendar calls the 30th a "transition day" which somehow doesn't count as a week day, and the 1st is the "new moon day" which also somehow doesn't count.
But the reality is that from their Sabbath on the 29th till their next Sabbath on the 8th you do not have a seven day week.

Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: cephalopod] #153700
06/28/13 03:10 AM
06/28/13 03:10 AM
dedication  Online Content
Global Moderator
Supporting Member 2022

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,501
Canada
Since this is the most Biblical defense I could find on this thread I thought I would explore it and comment on it.

Originally Posted By: cephalopod
A)
"And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt saying, This month shall be unto you the beginning of months: it shall be the first month of the year to you". Exodus 12,1

B)
And Moses wrote their goings out according to their journeys by the commandment of the LORD: and these are their journeys according to their goings out. And they departed from Rameses in the first month, on the fifteenth day of the first month; on the morrow after the passover the children of Israel went out with an high hand in the sight of all the Egyptians.


So what we have thus far is the knowledge that Israel marked their year by monthly segments -- these months were calculated by the moon.

But already, I see a Biblical reason why I can't accept that the seventh day Sabbath is the same as the festival special days.
The 8th, the 15th, the 22nd and the 29th are supposedly Sabbaths on the lunar calendar. But on the 15th of the first month we see here that the children of Israel were collecting money and other valuables from their Egyptian neighbors, packing it, and all their other belongings and starting a long journey.

According to the book of Nehemiah this is NOT Sabbath activity.
So I really do not think the 15th was a seventh day Sabbath that month.

Originally Posted By: cephalopod
Counting from the "New Moon", Passover the 14th is ALWAYS on the 6th "day" of the week. In the above Scripture the Children of Israel left Eqypt "on the morrow" or the next day after Passover.
New Moon Day (1), day 2, day 3, day 4, day 5, day 6, day 7, day 8 ( Sabbath day ), day 9, day 10, day 11, day 12, day 13, day 14 ( 6th day of the week ), day 15 ( Sabbath day ).

Day 1 (New Moon) and Day 14 (Passover) have been identified. We know from Deut 16,1 that God brought the Children out of Egypt "by night" the day after the Passover. We know that the New Moon day is the first day of the first month of the first year because God commanded the Hebrews to keep the Passover Lamb up to the 14th day of the first month then to kill it.

If you go back and look at the "simple math" you will see that the 15th day, by default, is the Sabbath. Counting back 7 days identifies the 8th day as also a Sabbath. Day 1 can't be the Sabbath because it's the first day, of the first month of the first year and there is never a time where the New Moon day is the Sabbath, it's impossible. Counting forward from the 15th day we can identify the 22nd and 29th day as Sabbath days as well. This is the first Biblical month. The second month is laid out identical.

How many assumptions are made in the above quote?
1) The first assumption is that New Moon and Sabbath can NEVER happen together. Why not?
Where is there any Biblical proof for that assumption. Just because the gates were opened on New Moon and Sabbath days, does not at all prove this.
Since most of the time the new moon did not occur on the 7th day Sabbath, the comment is made that on New Moons the gates are also opened, but it doesn't mean the New Moon never fell on a Sabbath.

2) The second assumption is that the new week must begin on the day following the New Moon. Why?

3) The third assumption is that the festival special days are the same as the 7th day Sabbath.

One reason why I think they are NOT the same, is found in Lev. 23, and the feast of weeks. (The word weeks is actual sevens)

From the morning after the Sabbath they were to count 7 Sabbaths, unto the morning after the Seventh Sabbath which is day 50.
Yet, if the lunar calendar were followed,
1)22, 2)29 3)8th 4)15, 5)22, 6)29,7)8th (7+7+9+7+7+7+9) it would be the 53rd or 54th day. And not the day after seven sevens.




Quote:
On the 15th Day of the Second month of the Exodus from Egypt the Children complained to Moses. Notice what happens. God tells Moses on the 15th Day that He will rain bread from heaven and test the Children to see if they will walk in His law or not.

On Day 15 God instructs Moses what to instruct the Children.

Ex. 16:1 "and all the congregation of the children of Israel came unto the wilderness of Sin, which [is] between Elim and Sinai on the fifteenth day of the second month after their departing out of the land of Egypt."

So actually it says they ARRIVED in the desert of Sin, on the 15th day. Again this does not sound like it was the Sabbath. It doesn't say they arrived on the 14th and rested on the 15th -- now that would be evidence, yet the text simply says after a full month of travel they arrived in the desert.





Quote:
If you read Exodus 16 you will see on the evening of the "15th day of the month" God caused quail to blow into the camp of the Children of Israel and the next morning manna started to fall. Day 15 = The Sabbath, plus 16th day (1st day of manna), 17th day (2nd day of Manna), 18th day (3rd day of Manna), 19th day (4th day of Manna), 20th day (5th day of manna), 21st day (6th day of Manna) whereas the Children are to gather twice as much manna because on the 22 day there will be no manna because that day is the Sabbath day. The math works out the same way as it did from the Exodus of Egypt with the Sabbath being on the 8th, 15th, 22nd and 29th day from the New Moon.


Maybe it was still the 15th or maybe it was a little later, we can't be sure from the text.

Yet, the strange part about the manna -- there is absolutely NO instructions concerning the 4th lunar week in each month, in which they had extra days. Did they gather manna on "transition days" (30th) or on "New Moon Days" (1st). Or did they have to gather for four days on the 28th to make it through the 29th, 30th and 1st? And only then was this followed by six regular days before another Sabbath arrived.

The record simply gives the six days manna, seventh day no manna falls.
There is no evidence of a monthly recurring 8 or 9 day week.

To me this is strong evidence that the 7th day Sabbath is a continuous seven day cycle. Not one that is broken every fourth week.


Quote:
That's two months in a row wereas the Sabbaths were on the identical days of the same Lunar Calendar Impossible to duplicate on a Gregorian calendar. If the 22nd was the Sabbath OF that month simply subtract 7 days to see where the PREVIOUS sabbath fell - it fell on the 15th!

But it is an assumption. The only thing we know for sure is that Israel left Egypt on the 15th of the 1st month, and arrived in the desert of Sin, on the 15th of the second month. To me this shows the 15th as a major traveling day.



Quote:
We are not going to stop at two months, so let's continue to "the third month".

"In the third month, when the children of Israel were gone forth out of the land of Egypt, the same day came they into the wilderness of Sinai". Exodus 19,1


So again they ARRIVE at Sinai on the 15th. Again it was a traveling day. They should have arrived on the 14th and rested on the 15th if it really were a Sabbath.



Quote:
That's two months in a row and I've not been able to find anyone who can duplicate that on a Gregorian Calendar in ANY two back to back months in ANY YEAR.
Anyone is welcome to correct my math.


It's like saying -- The children of Israel left Egypt on April the 15th, they arrived in the desert of Sin a month later on May the 15th, and another month later they arrived at Sinai on June the 15th.

Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: dedication] #153705
06/28/13 12:19 PM
06/28/13 12:19 PM
H
Harold Fair  Offline
Active Member 2013
Full Member
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 215
Florida, USA
You are mixing Sabbaths. There are seven, 7, annual sabbaths connected with the sacrificial law that have nothing to do with the weekly Sabbath sistituted at Creation.


Harold T.
Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: Harold Fair] #153732
06/29/13 02:20 AM
06/29/13 02:20 AM
dedication  Online Content
Global Moderator
Supporting Member 2022

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,501
Canada
Originally Posted By: Harold Fair
You are mixing Sabbaths. There are seven, 7, annual sabbaths connected with the sacrificial law that have nothing to do with the weekly Sabbath sistituted at Creation.

Are you referring to me, or to the writer of the post I was answering. Because if you are referring to me I must have really been unclear in my answers, for you to come to the opposite conclusion as to what I was trying to say!

The lunar calendar looks to the festival special days as the same as the seventh day Sabbath.
My two posts tried to show why I don't see this as possible.

I agree -- the festival "Sabbaths" are NOT the same as the seventh-day Sabbath of creation.

Re: 19 - The Sabbath [Re: Daryl] #170956
12/29/14 03:35 PM
12/29/14 03:35 PM
K
kland  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

5500+ Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,445
Midland
It seems Pod has become quite busy and hasn't had a chance to respond yet.

It's interesting that he says he's certain it will be perfectly clear if only he can post pictures. He does. Unfortunately, I cannot determine how posting a moon phase chart and the times of rising and setting of the moon makes anything clear about how many days are in a week or if it should be restarted at times.
Too little delivered, too late.

I found some other posts by others on the internet of people promoting an idea, and being requested to support it Biblically. The others become frustrated because after 100s of pages, the promoter just urges acceptance with nothing more than they saying others will be eternally lost unless they blindly accept what's being promoted. I see a pattern.

Page 9 of 10 1 2 7 8 9 10

Sabbath School Lesson Study Material Link
Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
Most Recent Posts From Selected Public Forums
Third Quarter 2024 The Book of Mark
by dedication. 07/21/24 07:29 AM
The Gospel According To John
by dedication. 07/20/24 09:42 PM
Spiritual Evolution
by Rick H. 07/20/24 12:20 PM
"Justice" or torture?
by Rick H. 07/20/24 12:17 PM
The fragility of our cultural lifestyle
by dedication. 07/19/24 10:59 PM
Seven Trumpets reconsidered
by Karen Y. 07/18/24 11:17 AM
2nd Quarter 2024 The Great Controversy
by dedication. 07/17/24 01:42 PM
Looking to Escape the Heat
by kland. 07/15/24 06:44 PM
What is the Biblical Reckoning of a Day?
by Rick H. 07/13/24 01:18 PM
Global Warming Farce
by dedication. 07/07/24 05:32 PM
Looks like the debate was a disaster for Biden.
by dedication. 07/07/24 03:05 PM
A Review of U.S. Sunday Laws
by dedication. 07/07/24 12:38 AM
Most Recent Posts From Selected Private Forums of MSDAOL
Ecumenical Baptism
by Rick H. 07/20/24 06:20 PM
Has SDA prophetic understanding losts its way?
by Rick H. 07/20/24 06:12 PM
Will Trump Pass The Sunday Law?
by Rick H. 07/20/24 06:04 PM
Satan's Last Day Deception...
by Rick H. 07/20/24 06:00 PM
The most bitter of enemies.
by Rick H. 07/20/24 01:52 PM
Press Together! Press Together!
by Rick H. 07/20/24 01:30 PM
The Wound Is Healed! The Mark Is Forming!
by Rick H. 07/20/24 12:25 PM
LGBTQ+ Rainbow Decorates SDA Website
by kland. 07/19/24 06:45 PM
False Tongues In The Church!
by TheophilusOne. 07/13/24 12:24 AM
Who is the AntiChrist? (Identifying Him)
by dedication. 07/05/24 03:47 PM
Perils of the Emerging Church Movement
by Rick H. 07/05/24 08:24 AM
Forum Announcements
Visitors by Country Since February 11, 2013
Flag Counter
Google Maritime SDA OnLine Public Forums Site Search & Google Translation Service
Google
 
Web www.maritime-sda-online.com

Copyright 2000-Present
Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine (formerly Maritime SDA OnLine).

LEGAL NOTICE:
The views expressed in this forum are those of individuals
and do not necessarily represent those of Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine,
as well as the Seventh-day Adventist Church
from the local church level to the General Conference level.

Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine (formerly Maritime SDA OnLine) is also a self-supporting ministry
and is not part of, or affiliated with, or endorsed by
The General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists headquartered in Silver Spring, Maryland
or any of its subsidiaries.

"And He saith unto them, follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men." Matt. 4:19
MARITIME 2ND ADVENT BELIEVERS ONLINE (FORMERLY MARITIME SDA ONLINE) CONSISTING MAINLY OF BOTH MEMBERS & FRIENDS
OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH,
INVITES OTHER MEMBERS & FRIENDS OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD WHO WISHES TO JOIN US!
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1