Hi, nice to meet you zyph. That is an amazing story. Sad to say but it shows how our emotions can (and will) deceive us. Here is another post from the pre-trib believers. I almost hesitate to share this on an Adventist site, however most of the information that we have previously been taught in reference to what "they believe" is no longer pertinent. In order to know what they believe and therefore have an intelligent answer we should at least know what they believe.

Quote: by Thomas Ice

One of the most compelling, yet often misunderstood, arguments for
pretribulationism relates to the Holy Spirit's role to the church and the
tribulation period. Most holding to the pre-trib position believe that 2
Thessalonians 2:6-7 refers to the restraining ministry of the Holy Spirit
through the agency of the Church. Thus, when the church is raptured before
the tribulation, that ministry of the Holy Spirit will be removed as well.
If this interpretation is correct, then it is a strong argument for
pretribulationism.

I have been building a theological case for the pre-trib rapture. I
presented the four foundational issues: consistent literal interpretation,
premillennialism, futurism, and a distinction between God's plan for Israel
and the church. Next, I brought forth six reasons for pretribulationism:
contrasts between comings, an interval needed between comings, imminency,
nature of the tribulation, nature of the church, and finally the work of the
Holy Spirit in this article. In future installments I will present some
concluding arguments and show the practical implications that flow from
pretribulationism.

The Holy Spirit as Restrainer
Second Thessalonians 2:1-12 discusses a man of lawlessness being held back
until a later time. Interpreting the restrainer of evil (2:6) as the
indwelling ministry of the Holy Spirit at work through the body of Christ
during the current age, supports the pretribulational interpretation. Since
"the lawless one" (the beast or Antichrist) cannot be revealed until the
Restrainer (the Holy Spirit) is taken away (2:7-8), the tribulation cannot
occur until the church is removed. Of all the rapture positions, only the
pre-trib position can be harmonized when we understand that the Restrainer
is referring to the Holy Spirit.

I believe the correct interpretation of this passage understands the
restrainer to refer to the Holy Spirit as He functions during the present
church age through the baptism of the Holy Spirit and indwelling of
believers. This cryptic reference to the Holy Spirit's present work explains
the unusual grammar employed in the passage. In verse six "the restrainer"
is in the neuter gender (to katéchon) while in verse seven "the restrainer"
is masculine (o katechôn). The significance of this grammar and how it
relates to the Holy Spirit and the rapture is explained by Dr. Robert Thomas
below.

Key to the above scenario is whether the Holy Spirit is the restrainer.
After surveying various interpretations of the passage, Dr. Thomas
concludes:

To one familiar with the Lord Jesus' Upper Room Discourse, as Paul
undoubtedly was, fluctuation between neuter and masculine recalls how the
Holy Spirit is spoken of. Either gender is appropriate, depending on whether
the speaker (or writer) thinks of natural agreement (masc. because of the
Spirit's personality) or grammatical (neuter because of the noun pneuma; see
John 14:26; 15:26; 16:13, 14) . . . This identification of the restrainer
with deep roots in church history . . . is most appealing. The special
presence of the Spirit as the indweller of saints will terminate abruptly at
the parousia as it began abruptly at Pentecost. Once the body of Christ has
been caught away to heaven, the Spirit's ministry will revert back to what
he did for believers during the OT period . . . . His function of
restraining evil through the body of Christ (John 16:7-11; 1 John 4:4) will
cease similarly to the way he terminated his striving in the days of Noah
(Gen. 6:3). At that point the reins will be removed from lawlessness and the
Satanically inspired rebellion will begin. It appears that to katechon
("what is holding back") was well known at Thessalonica as a title for the
Holy Spirit on whom the readers had come to depend in their personal
attempts to combat lawlessness (1 Thess. 1:6; 4:8; 5:19; 2 Thess. 2:13).1

Dr. Gerald Stanton cites six reasons why this passage should be understood
to refer to the Holy Spirit's restraining ministry through the church.

(1) By mere elimination, the Holy Spirit must be the restrainer. All other
possibilities fall short of meeting the requirements of one who is to hold
in check the forces of evil until the manifestation of Antichrist. . . .

(2) The Wicked One is a personality and his operations include the realm of
the spiritual. The restrainer must likewise be a personality and of a
spiritual order, to resist the wiles of the Devil and to hold Antichrist in
check until the time of his revealing. . . .

(3) To achieve all that is to be accomplished, the restrainer must be a
member of the Godhead. He must be stronger than the Man of Sin, and stronger
than Satan. . . .

(4) This present age is in a particular sense the "dispensation of the
Spirit," for He works in a way uncommon to other ages as an abiding Presence
within the children of God. . . .

(5) The work of the Spirit since His advent has included the restraint of
evil. The Spirit is God's righteous Agent for the age, and there are many
reasons to be grateful for His restraining hand upon this world's iniquity.
None but the Lawful One could restrain this world's iniquity. . . .

(6) It is not difficult to establish that although the Spirit was not
resident on earth during Old Testament days, whatever restraint was exerted
was by the Spirit. . . . (Isa. 59:19) . . . The wickedness of Noah's day and
the fact that life went on as usual in blindness to impending destruction is
used of the Spirit in vivid portrayal of careless and wicked men upon whom
Tribulation judgment shall fall. . . .

In light of this Scriptural parallel, it is exceedingly significant that in
the days immediately preceding the destruction of the flood, the restraining
work of the Spirit is emphasized. . . .2

Present Work of the Holy Spirit in the Church
The church began on the Day of Pentecost with a visitation of the Holy
Spirit as recorded in Acts 2. The church ends at the rapture with the
translation of living saints and the resurrection of those who have died in
Christ (1 Thess. 4:13-18). Until the rapture God is gathering out from the
Gentiles a people for His name (Acts 15:14) and combining them with the
elect remnant of Israel (Rom. 11:5) into one new body called the church
(Eph. 2:11-3:13). This great task is accomplished by a unique ministry of
the Holy Spirit only during the church age called the baptism of the Holy
Spirit. Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 12:13, "For by one Spirit were we all
[Jewish and Gentile Believers] baptized into one body, whether Jews or
Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one
Spirit." This work of the Holy Spirit is only for the church. Therefore, it
is not surprising that since the tribulation cannot start until after the
church is completed and taken to heaven in the rapture that the man of
lawlessness is restrained through the presence of the Holy Spirit on earth
indwelling church age Believers. This current work of the Holy Spirit is
unique to the church. Dr. John Walvoord explains,

We search the prophetic Scriptures in vain for any reference to baptism of
the Spirit except in regard to the church, the body of Christ (1 Cor.
12:13). While, therefore, the Spirit continues a ministry in the world in
the tribulation, there is no longer a corporate body of believers knit into
one living organism. There is rather a return to national distinctions and
fulfillment of national promises in preparation for the millennium.3

The Work of the Holy Spirit in the Tribulation
Those who do not hold to pretribulationism often mischaracterize our view of
the Holy Spirit in the tribulation. They often say that we do not believe
that the Holy Spirit will be present during the tribulation. This is not
what we are saying. We do believe that the Holy Spirit will be present and
active during the tribulation. We do believe the Holy Spirit will not be
carrying out His present unique ministry related to the church since all
members of that body will be in heaven. Further, we are saying that the Holy
Spirit will be present in His transdispensational ministry of bringing the
elect of the tribulation to faith in Christ, even though they will not be
parto f the body of Christ-the church. The Holy Spirit will also aid
tribulation Believers as they live holy lives unto the Lord. The Holy Spirit
will also function to seal and protect the 144,000 Jewish witnesses for
their great evangelistic ministry as noted in Revelation 7 and 14 and the
two witnesses of Revelation 11.

Even though pretribulationists believe that many unique aspects of the
current work of the Holy Spirit will cease at the rapture, it is not correct
to say that we believe the Holy Spirit will not be present during the
tribulation. Just as the Holy Spirit will engage in some ministries during
the tribulation, relating to the 144,000 witnesses and the two witnesses,
that are not occurring during the current church age, so there will cease
certain ministries unique to the church which will enable the man of sin to
come onto the stage of history.

Endnotes
1 Robert L. Thomas, "2 Thessalonians," in The Expositor's Bible Commentary,
Vol. 11, ed. Frank E. Gaebelein (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1978), pp. 324-25.

2 Gerald B. Stanton, Kept From The Hour, 4th. ed., (Miami Springs, FL:
Schoettle Publishing Company, 1991), pp. 99-102.

3 John F. Walvoord, The Holy Spirit (Grand Rapids: Zondervan Publishing Co.,
1958), p. 231.

My observance, after a year of getting to know some of these people (online) is that what they say makes a lot of sense to them. For example. Eternal security. Many love John 3:16 to prove this... If we believe.. and receive "eternal" life there is no way that we could loose it if indeed it is "eternal" life. "Eternal" life is everlasting, and if you receive it... how could you loose it? In their view to question this only reveales our lack of faith.

Daryl Fawcett Wrote: There are many in more than one denomination that believe in the Secret Rapture.
Is the Secret Rapture fact or fiction, a true or a false doctrine?

Why is it that they believe in the Secret Rapture in the first place?

What texts do they use to promote such an idea?

They believe that Paul taught this doctrirne and that it consistent with all the scriptures, including Daniel, and going right on through to Revelation. They believe that Jesus Himself taught this doctrine. Mat. ch 13 + 24 etc. They use an amazing amount of texts now days to support different aspects of this idea. They also use a whole lot of supposition's to fill in the unanswered questions.

If there is a Bible truth, it is for sure that there will be at least one counterfit. Satan has had time to refine this one, and has been using it very effectively. God does have a Truth that will be proclaimed to the world, and it is a priveledge, and such a Blessing to be a part of that work.

Blessings.

Forever His

Hi Everyone,

A few years ago I listened to a cassette tape sermon by an Auatralian preacher about the real reason behind the rapture. But I dont have the tape anymore and dont remember who the preacher was or even how I could get the tape again. I also cant remember exactly what it said.

The thing I do remember however, was that he said it was a known fact that the Jesuits actually invented the rapture theory. The reason given was that the Catholic Church wanted to cover up the truth about that they are the beast of Revelation.

Somebody was asking me about the rapture the other day and I shared that with them but does anyone have any information on this? Has anyone else ever heard that idea about the Catholic Church and the rapture? Im not sure I understand how the rapture idea would cover up the fact that in Revelation the Catholic Church was the Beast. I cant remember.

Claudia

I've looked at the "Left Behind" forums, and man...a lot of different interpretations there, mostly based on personal opinions. Many people there use Scripture to back up their preconceived notions, it would appear; instead of letting Scripture interpret Scripture, and reading it for what it plainly says.

Pastor Steve Wohlberg has a good site on the subject, http://www.truthleftbehind.com/
He's been on 3ABN talking about this, and knows his stuff, especially on the subject of "who constitutes the Israel of God", a subject that confuses most evangelical Christians who think it still means the literal Jews 'after the flesh'. That belief leads rapture theorists to expect that a literal temple will be rebuilt in Jerusalem, coupled with their (mis)understanding of 2 Thessalonians 2:4.

Also there are some good pamphlet articles at the Amazing Facts site:

"The Secret Rapture", by Joe Crews -- http://www.amazingfacts.org/catalog/pb/bk-sr.html

"Rendezvous in Space", by Joe Crews -- http://www.amazingfacts.org/catalog/pb/bk-ris.html

"Anything But Secret", by Doug Batchelor -- http://www.amazingfacts.org/ourministry/news/anything_but_secret.html

And it's my understanding that the 'futurist' school of prophetic interpretation was thought up by the Jesuit Ribera during the "counter-Reformation", in an effort to counteract the Reformers' identification of the Little Horn of Daniel 7, and the Beast of Revelation 13, with the Papacy. Ribera said all those prophecies applied to some power that wouldn't appear until the very end of time, and so they couldn't possibly apply to the Papacy. And now most Protestants believe that!

The two-phase 'secret rapture' part of the equation came about as a result of a supposed prophecy given by a young lady in a Scottish church around 1830; this teaching went on to appear in the study notes of the Scofield Reference Bible, and it took off from there.

It's amazing how many Christians accept this teaching completely, unquestioningly. Before I was an Adventist, I went to the Methodist church, and had some Baptist friends who taught the 'rapture' theory. (One of them went on to become a Baptist preacher.) I argued with the Adventist pastor who came to town holding crusades, mainly over the 'rapture' theory and the state of the dead. The more I studied trying to prove him wrong, the more I saw that he was right, and that what I'd been taught had no support in the Bible. SDAs know the Scriptures better than anyone on earth, I believe; and thank the Lord for it!

Welcome, John, to Maritime SDA OnLine!

I also went to the Bible to prove how wrong the Seventh-day Adventists are and ended up becoming a Seventh-day Adventist instead.

Always interesting to read about those people coming to Adventism because they checked it out and found it air-tight! On lady was baptised and shortly later left the church, all I ever got out of her at college was that "she just couldn't believe certain things the church taught."

I'll tell you, I wish she were more open to conversation - I was burning to know what the problem was so I could talk more about it - that she was maybe missing a certain element or misunderstood something... I may never know. I just have to pray.

As far as Raptures go... it just seems that people love security. A Safety-net if you will. Who wouldn't like to know that if they miss the boat that leaves at an unknown time, there will be another boat some time very shortly after it.
All you really have to do is kick back and wait for people to get on the first boat - then you've got a 1-7 years to "get your act together" and be good and get on Jesus' Buddy List.

And therein lies the danger. It's an excuse for some to not want to be truly devoted. But that doesn't lump everyone in a nice, neat package. Like the driver falling out of her sunroof, some are people who DO love Jesus (or sure think they do!) Isn't it rather prideful to think that one denomination is above another and gets a "Get out of Tribulation Free!" Card while the others get to suffer it out. They get to live happily and bear lots of children while the rest of the world waits for Jesus' arrival? That Jesus would favour them other other people who love and serve Him?

I would think that Jesus, in ultimate fairness, gives everyone the same chance. One life to live. You choose your master. When He comes, you get to stay forever with your choice - except staying with satan means also sharing his fate. "Forever" in this case, means being reduced to ashes.....

I was all set to ramble on further. I think I'll just end here. Happy Sabbath everyone! God bless...

==========

Icon correction only.

[ May 31, 2002, 12:33 PM: Message edited by: Daryl Fawcett ]

We are beginning a Bible Study on this tonight at our weekly Prayer & Bible Study Meeting.

In order to recognize a counterfeit dollar bill, be it a $1.00 bill, or a $5.00 bill, or a $10.00 etc., we first need to know what the true dollar bill looks like. How can you tell a counterfeit, if you don't even know what the true one looks like?

Our focus will be to first study what the Bible truly has to say about the 490 day prophecy (70 week prophecy), and then to compare it to the counterfeit or false doctrine of this prophecy, particularly on the 70th week, the last 7 days of the 490 day prophecy.

Dedreic Grecian, a member of MSDAOL, (His wife Lorelei is also a member of MSDAOL), will be leading out in this study. I don't believe they presently have an internet connection, therefore, I plan to share here what goes on there.

Whenever time permits, I also plan to share from what we have already discussed on this thread. That may not happen until we get further on into the study.

We had an interesting study last evening.

We started with what was considered as the most important secret rapture text:

quote:

---

Matthew 24:40 Then two men will be in the field; one is taken and one is left.
41 Two women will be grinding at the mill; one is taken and one is left.

---

One is taken and the other is left behind.

Some reasons were given in which Jesus taught in Matthew 24:40,41 that do not teach of a "secret rapture."

quote:

---

Matthew 24:30 then will appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory;

---

Nothing secret about that for every eye will see Him.

quote:

---

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, every one who pierced him; and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.

---

Again, nothing secret about His 2nd Coming for every eye will see Him.

The Bible actually teaches the fate of those left behind.

quote:

---

Matthew 24:37 As were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of man.
38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark,
39 and they did not know until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of man.
40 Then two men will be in the field; one is taken and one is left.
41 Two women will be grinding at the mill; one is taken and one is left.

---

What was the fate of those who were left outside Noah's Ark? They were destroyed (drowned) by the Flood.

quote:

---

Luke 17:26 As it was in the days of Noah, so will it be in the days of the Son of man.
27 They ate, they drank, they married, they were given in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise as it was in the days of Lot--they ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built,
29 but on the day when Lot went out from Sodom fire and sulphur rained from heaven and destroyed them all.
30 so will it be on the day when the Son of man is revealed.

---

Therefore, the ones left behind are NOT left alive.

I will share more of what we studied last evening later on, as I first want your thoughts on what I shared so far.

[ August 15, 2002, 11:54 PM: Message edited by: Daryl Fawcett ]

Well, we are continuing this tomorrow evening, so I better post more here now.

Here are other most used texts to support the false doctrine of "the secret rapture."

quote:

---

1 Corinthians 15:51 Lo! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
53 For this perishable nature must put on the imperishable, and this mortal nature must put on immortality.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel's call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first;
17 then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

---

We were told that the words, "caught up", is referred to as rapturil in the Latin Bible only.

I do have the Latin (Vulgate) on my computer, so I decided to check it out for myself, and this is how it reads:

quote:

---

1 Thessalonians 4:16 quoniam ipse Dominus in iussu et in voce archangeli et in tuba Dei descendet de caelo et mortui qui in Christo sunt resurgent primi
17 deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper cum Domino erimus
18 itaque consolamini invicem in verbis istis

---

The only word that I can see that resembles that is "rapiemur" which seems to be close enough to me. Any Latin scholars out there?

Continuing on.

Here is the next text:

quote:

---

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

---

They focus on the words, "thief in the night", to back up their idea of a secret rapture in the sense that a thief in the night does his work quietly and secretly.

We covered a lot of territory last evening, so much that I have given up trying to keep caught up to our weekly study.

Let us now take a look at five very un-secret descriptions of how Jesus will return.

1 - Jesus will return with angels (Matthew 24:31; Matthew 28:2-4)

2 - Jesus will return with the trump of God (1 Thess. 4:16; Matthew 24:31; Exodus 19:16,18,19)

3 - Jesus will return with power and great glory. (Matthew 24:30)

4 - Jesus will return with lightning and fire. (Matthew 24:27; Psalm 50:3; 2 Peter 3:10)

5 - Jesus will return with an earthquake. (Rev. 16:18,20; Rev. 6:15-17)

Let us take an actual look at 2 Peter 3:10.

quote:

---

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

---

Definitely sounds like a "noisy thief in the night" to me. Definitely nothing secret about that!

Early on in this discussion someone asked about where all this can come from. After reading Hal Lindseys book "The Late Great Planet Earth" is discovered that they start the prophecy of Daniel 9 NOT with Ezra 7 but with Neh 2 or 3 thus pushing the date from 457 BC to a later date. THEN they have to do some heavy math gymnastics to get to the time period of Christ. They use instead of God announcing His arrival at His baptism they start with His entry into Jerusalem. From there the rest of the 70 weeks CAN'T fit so they then justifiy from here the rapture.