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Re: God the Son #47635
12/31/05 02:07 AM
12/31/05 02:07 AM
Daryl  Offline

Site Administrator
23000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,118
Nova Scotia, Canada
Here is an EGW quote appropriate to this topic

quote:

Let People Know Our Position.--Our policy is, Do not make prominent the objectionable features of our faith, which strike most decidedly against the practices and customs of the people, until the Lord shall give the people a fair chance to know that we are believers in Christ, that we do believe in the divinity of Christ, and in His pre-existence.--Testimonies to Ministers, p. 253. (1895) {Ev 613.2}

EGW clearly believes in the divinity of Christ and in His pre-existence.

Re: God the Son #47636
12/31/05 02:13 AM
12/31/05 02:13 AM
Daryl  Offline

Site Administrator
23000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,118
Nova Scotia, Canada
Here is another interesting EGW quote:

[quote]
With the Father at Sinai.--When they [Israel] came to Sinai, He took occasion to refresh their minds in regard to His requirements. Christ and the Father, standing side by side upon the mount, with solemn majesty proclaimed the Ten Commandments.--Historical Sketches, p. 231. (1866) {Ev 616.3} p/quote]

Christ and the Father standing together side by side at Sinai. Sounds like two divine beings to me.

Re: God the Son #47637
12/31/05 02:36 AM
12/31/05 02:36 AM
D
Dr.Glenn  Offline
Full Member
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 104
Nevada
Quote: "For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life within himself". John 5:26.
If there were always two beings (Father and Son) and the Son was not literally born or begotten from the Father and each always had "life within himself", why did the Father give the Son "life within himself"?

Re: God the Son #47638
12/31/05 03:20 PM
12/31/05 03:20 PM
V
van  Offline
New Member (Starting to Post)
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 6
MF, OR
Is not the phrase "son of God" attributal to Adam and those from other worlds? (Job 1:6) In Job chapter 1 Satan comes representing the earth having wrested the lordship over it from Adam. Scroll down several centuries to the time of Christ. As "Son of God" He redeems that which Adam lost. Jesus became a Son like Adam in that he was made a human.

My point in all this is that Jesus voluntarily accepted to condescend to humanity through the "begotten" experience. Using the phrase "only begotten Son" or any thing similar is simply a way to express His condesension, the willingness to forsake the infinite for the finite, all the while not abandoning the divine. This is the mystery of God becoming man, something we marvel at now and see very dimly, but something we will study throurghout eternity.

Our use of "begotten Son of God" should be used in the same context as "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." Jesus has always been the Son of God because the plan of redemption has always been. It is simply human language attempting to describe the most amazing miracle that has ever occurred in the universe.

Re: God the Son #47639
01/01/06 04:39 AM
01/01/06 04:39 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Dr. Glen, if there was a time when Jesus did not exist there was a time, then, when our Saviour and salvation did not exist. Since our salvation is as eternal as the Godhead, since our salvation is in Jesus it stands to reason, therefore, that Jesus is eternal.

The insight that God gave Jesus life within Himself is a truth that must be understood in the context of Jesus' eternal pre-existence. Since it cannot be taken to mean that Jesus is not eternal it must, consequently, mean something else.

As Van pointed out (welcome to MSDAOL, Van), the title Son of God applies to Jesus because He became a human being. Whatever will be, in the case of the Godhead, is true from all eternity. As such, Jesus is the eternal Son of God, not because there was a time when He did not exist, which doesn't even make sense - but because He was born of Mary.

He is the eternal Son of God, the eternal Son of Man. He is these things because He is a member of the eternal Godhead. Yes, Jesus is the eternal Son of Man. For the same reasons He is the eternal Son of God, Jesus is also the eternal Son of Man. Jesus has been the Son of man from all eternity. Why? Because whatever will be is true of Jesus from all eternity. That's the nature of eternal Beings.

During the time Jesus was a human on earth He lived His life with sinful flesh nature. He set aside His own personal divinity, except in a few cases, and lived life as a born again believer. Nevertheless, God gave Jesus permission to have life within Himself, which He used to resurrect others and Himself.

This insight cannot be forced to mean Jesus isn't eternal or that His life was borrowed or begotten. Jesus' eternal pre-existence is established, therefore, this insight must be understood in the context of the truth. God allowing Jesus to have life within Himself simply means He had the authority to use His life to heal and resurrect others and Himself.

That is, He wasn't required to set aside His life and to use the life of His Father to do those particular things. But when it came to overcoming temptation, Jesus was required to trust in His Father's power in the same way we are. However, this insight does not suggest that Jesus was, prior to His incarnation, unable to overcome in His own strength.

Re: God the Son #47640
01/01/06 03:24 AM
01/01/06 03:24 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
quote:
Dr. Glen, if there was a time when Jesus did not exist there was a time, then, when our Saviour and salvation did not exist.
This is wierd reasoning. Let's continue on with it. Given there was always a Savior and salvation, it must follow that there wasn't a time when we didn't exist, since how could we be saved without existing? Therefore we have always existed, and are as eternal as Christ.

Not a very convincing argument.

quote:
Since our salvation is as eternal as the Godhead, since our salvation is in Jesus it stands to reason, therefore, that Jesus is eternal.
And by the same reasoning (or lack of reasoning) we are eternal too.

quote:
The insight that God gave Jesus life within Himself is a truth that must be understood in the context of Jesus' eternal pre-existence.
Why? You're just assuming your conclusion. You are postulating that something you believe to be true must be true. That's not how logic works. You don't assume your conclusion. You assume some hypothesis that whoever you are addressing will accept as true, and reason from there.

quote:
Since it cannot be taken to mean that Jesus is not eternal it must, consequently, mean something else.
Here again, you're just assuming your conclusion. "Since what I believe must be true, it must be true."

quote:
As Van pointed out (welcome to MSDAOL, Van), the title Son of God applies to Jesus because He became a human being.
How then does the Spirit of Prophecy refer to Him as the Son of God before He was incarnate? Also, I don't see how it makes any sense to think that Jesus became the Son of God when He was incarnate. If one becomes a son of God that way, then we are all sons of God (and indeed we are, but not the same way Jesus was).

quote:
Whatever will be, in the case of the Godhead, is true from all eternity. As such, Jesus is the eternal Son of God, not because there was a time when He did not exist, which doesn't even make sense - but because He was born of Mary.
This is self-contradictory it appears to me. You argue on the one hand that what is true for the Godhead must be true from all eternity, and then argue on the other that Jesus is the eternal Son of God because He was born of Mary. [Confused]

Being born of Mary is a temporal event, not something that happened from eternity.

quote:
He is the eternal Son of God, the eternal Son of Man. He is these things because He is a member of the eternal Godhead. Yes, Jesus is the eternal Son of Man.
He's the eternal Son of Man going forward, but not backwards. He didn't become a man until around 2,000 years ago. He has not been a man from all eternity.

quote:
For the same reasons He is the eternal Son of God, Jesus is also the eternal Son of Man.
No, there are two different reasons involved. The reason He is the eternal Son of God is because that's what He is by nature. The reason He is the Son of Man is because He became a man by being born into the race. There is nothing Christ could have done to not be the Son of God, but He could have avoided being the Son of Man. He could have chosen not to come to save us, and in this case He would not have been the Son of Man, but He would have been the Son of God.

quote:
Jesus has been the Son of man from all eternity. Why? Because whatever will be is true of Jesus from all eternity. That's the nature of eternal Beings.
This sounds like Greek philosophy, of the type Catholics use. For example, they use the exact reasoning you are suggesting to argue that Christ is eternally dying, and so they have crucifixes with Christ still on the cross. We, as Protestants, do not believe this.

quote:

During the time Jesus was a human on earth He lived His life with sinful flesh nature. He set aside His own personal divinity, except in a few cases, and lived life as a born again believer. Nevertheless, God gave Jesus permission to have life within Himself, which He used to resurrect others and Himself.

This insight cannot be forced to mean Jesus isn't eternal or that His life was borrowed or begotten. Jesus' eternal pre-existence is established, therefore, this insight must be understood in the context of the truth.

This is just circular reasoning once again. You are simply assuming your conclusion. WHY can't this insight be used to reason to the conclusion you disagree with? You can't just state it can't be the case because you disagree with the conclusion and assume it's true. That's not the way to construct an argument. You need to pick a hyposthesis that the one you are addressing (in this case, Dr. Glen) aggrees with, and argue from that premis to the conclusion you are trying to prove. Either that or start with a premis he is starting with, and reason from that the conclusion he arrives at does not logically follow from that conclusion. You are not doing that, or even attempting to do that. You are simply stating as fact that what you believe is true without adducing any evidence as to why.

quote:
God allowing Jesus to have life within Himself simply means He had the authority to use His life to heal and resurrect others and Himself.

That is, He wasn't required to set aside His life and to use the life of His Father to do those particular things. But when it came to overcoming temptation, Jesus was required to trust in His Father's power in the same way we are. However, this insight does not suggest that Jesus was, prior to His incarnation, unable to overcome in His own strength.

This is an interesting interpretation of the passage in John 5. I like it.

Re: God the Son #47641
01/01/06 03:29 AM
01/01/06 03:29 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
quote:
My point in all this is that Jesus voluntarily accepted to condescend to humanity through the "begotten" experience. Using the phrase "only begotten Son" or any thing similar is simply a way to express His condesension, the willingness to forsake the infinite for the finite, all the while not abandoning the divine.
Where is there any evidence, either from Scripture or the Spirit of Prophecy, that this is the case? That is, where does inspiration state that Jesus became the Son of God, or was begotten, when He became incarnate?

Several passages from the Spirit of Prophecy have been cited showing that Jesus was the Son of God before He was incarnate. What of these?

Consider John 3:16. God so loved the world He gave His Son. If Jesus became a Son only when He was incarnate, then God could not have given Him until that point. The verse would have to read something like "God so loved the world, He gave what would become His only begotten Son ..." In order for God to give Christ as His only begotten Son, He would have to have been such before He was given, or else God would be giving His only begotten Son, but rather something else.

Re: God the Son #47642
01/01/06 06:29 AM
01/01/06 06:29 AM
D
D R  Offline
Charter Member
SDA
Active Member 2020

Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 719
East Coast Canada
MM your reasoning is NOT contradictory to the beliefs of the SDA church (as far as my small brain understands) BUT Tom seams to be in contradiction to the word and the SDA teachings, so Tom are you saying that the SDA church is in error with its' understanding of the "Godhead"? Since we Baptize into Christ and the SDA Church in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost!

Re: God the Son #47643
01/01/06 08:11 AM
01/01/06 08:11 AM
D
Dr.Glenn  Offline
Full Member
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 104
Nevada
Dear Van and Mountain Man:
I never said that the only begotten Son of God is not eternal. I believe that he was begotten from the Father in ages past in time which is so far back that it cannot be calculated by man. The divine Son of God came out of the Father. The Father is eternal and what ever is begotten out of him is also eternal. To say that the only begotten Son is not eternal is to say that the Father is not eternal. The trinity doctrine says that He was not begotten until he was born of Mary and therefore not in the express image of the father's person until He was born in the manger here on earth.
Are you all confused about the different categories of the term "Son of God"?
E.G. White says: "A complete offering has been made: for "God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son." -- not a son by creation, as are the angels, nor a son by adoption, as is the forgiven sinner, but a Son begotten in the express image of the father's person, and in all the brightness of his majesty and glory, one equal with God in authority, dignity, and divine perfection. In him dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead bodily." ST May 30, 1895, par 3.

Re: God the Son #47644
01/01/06 02:29 PM
01/01/06 02:29 PM
V
van  Offline
New Member (Starting to Post)
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 6
MF, OR
Tom (and others),

Texts that I would draw upon are Psalm 2:7 (Acts 13:33), John 1:14, Hebrews 1:5, 6, Hebrews 5:5.

My reasoning goes like this:

1. Begotten means to bring into being. As divine, Christ's being is eternal having always been. On the other hand, Christ was begotten when He was brought into human being.

2. As Adam, and all the rest of us, were brought into human beings as God's sons and daughters so was Christ, as His only begotten, or first begotten.

3. As Micheal was the chief messenger to the angels of God's love, so Christ is the number one human to show God's love to humanity. Christ is the only begotten of the Father in that He is the "express image" of the Father's love.

Therefore, Christ's hmanity had a beginning. His divinity did not. It is eternal and equal to the member of the Godhead we indentify as Father. Through this great expression of the Father's love we can call Christ our brother.

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