Mike, I can't tell if you're continuing to be sarcastic, or are just being unperceptive. If you don't wish to continue our discussion that's fine, but please don't delude yourself into think you have understood what I believe if you can't state your understanding of my thoughts any better than this.

Tom, this is what I think you believe:

quote:

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If Jesus never did these things while on earth, and He is the same yesterday, today and forever, then He never did them any other time either. Also if all we can know about God was revealed in the life and character of Christ, we're making stuff up if we think we're seeing something which did not appear in the life and character of Christ.

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Since Jesus didn't cause a worldwide flood to kill millions of people when He walked the earth as a man, then, based on your theory, it is clear He didn't cause the Great Deluge.

And, since Jesus never commanded a holy angel to destroy anyone, He never has done before in the past. And, since He never withdrew His protection and allowed the forces of nature to kill people, then He never has. And, since He never gave Satan permission to kill people, He never has and never will. And, to borrow from Rosangela's insight, since Jesus never judged anyone or executed justice, He never has and never will.

Do these observations agree with your view? If not, then please explain why not. Better yet, just explain what you do believe. And, please, spare me the lessons on how to think and post if I somehow misunderstood and/or misapplied your view. Just set the record straight. Thank you.

Tom, this is what I think you believe:

If Jesus never did these things while on earth, and He is the same yesterday, today and forever, then He never did them any other time either. Also if all we can know about God was revealed in the life and character of Christ, we're making stuff up if we think we're seeing something which did not appear in the life and character of Christ.

Since Jesus didn't cause a worldwide flood to kill millions of people when He walked the earth as a man, then, based on your theory, it is clear He didn't cause the Great Deluge.

And, since Jesus never commanded a holy angel to destroy anyone, He never has done before in the past. And, since He never withdrew His protection and allowed the forces of nature to kill people, then He never has. And, since He never gave Satan permission to kill people, He never has and never will. And, to borrow from Rosangela's insight, since Jesus never judged anyone or executed justice, He never has and never will.

Do these observations agree with your view? If not, then please explain why not. Better yet, just explain what you do believe. And, please, spare me the lessons on how to think and post if I somehow misunderstood and/or misapplied your view. Just set the record straight. Thank you.

Perhaps you are unaware of how uncharitable your characterization of my position was. It's not pleasant to see one's thoughts being lampooned. I'm sure you wouldn't like it either. The goldren rule comes into play here: Post unto others as you would have them post unto you.

Thank you for quoting me. This helps in not misrepresenting a position (although it would have been helpful to have included a little more context, to see what "these things" are referring to.) Before responding to your specific questions (which are good ones) regarding Jesus withdrawing His protection and allowing the forces of nature to kill people, giving Satan permission to kill people, and judging or executing judgement, let me first ask if you find any fault with the logic of my statement. The logic is as follows:

Given that:
1)Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever
2)All that we can know about God was revealed in the life and character of His Son in His humanity

Then it follows that
3)Jesus did not act differently in the past, nor will He act differently in the future, then how He acted while on earth in the flesh. (and the same thing could be said about God the Father viz a viz how Christ acted while on earth in the flesh).

This seems like a perfectly sound argument to me. Do you disagree? I assume you must disagree, since you are suggesting examples to disprove the argument. But if the argument is not valid, then either the premises are not true, or the conclusion does not follow from the premise. The premises come directly from inspiration, and the conclusion looks to me to be a valid inference from the premise. So if you disagree that I have presented a valid argument, where is the invalidity?

Do you actually agree with my argument? Not just for the sake of discussion, but really? If not, then the argument is not sound, which would mean either a premise is false, or the conclusion does not follow from the premises.

If the argument is valid, then the questions you have asked (which are good ones) MUST have answers. I have ideas as to what the answers are, but before sharing these I would like to clarify that you agree that the argument is sound.

When you say "for the sake of discussion," this implies to me that you don't really believe the argument is sound, and if you don't, I would like to know why (i.e. either the premises are false, or the conclusion does not follow from the premises).

By the way, it's not really that difficult to answer your own questions. If you think about Christ's life, you can find the principles there. Given that ALL that man can know about God was revealed in the life and character of Christ, they principles MUST be found in His life and character. So seek and ye shall find.

Tom, in order for me to ascertain whether or not your formula is valid I need more information. Addressing the observations I posted above would go a long way in helping me. Since Jesus never did any of the things I listed while on earth as a human, it stands to reason then, based on your formula, that He never has and never will do them. Did I miss something?

You don't need any more information to ascertain if the argument is sound. The soundness of an argument depends upon two things, whether the premises are true, and if the conclusion logically follows from the premises.

The premises are:
a)Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever
b)All that we can know about God was revealed in the life and character of His Son in His humanity

The conclusion is:
c)Jesus Christ (and the same can be said of God the Father) did not act any differently in the past, nor will He act differently in the future, than how He acted on earth.

"Act differently" here is in the context of revealing character.

Regarding the questions you asked, either Christ did do the things you suggest, in principle, while on earth, in which case He could have done them before and afterwards as well, or He didn't do them, in which case He (and God the Father) did not do them in the past nor will He do them in the future either.

Regarding the last question (regarding judgment/justice), I have already commented in detail, several times, earlier in this post, so would invite you to read those comments. I will say in brief that Christ constantly executed justice while in the flesh, and so there's no difficulty understanding that He (or God) has done so in the past and will do so again in the future. Regarding Christ not judging (this would be in the sense of condemning, not in the sense of acting as a judge), this is something Christ did not do while on earth, which He affirmed many times, and is thus something He (nor God) did not do in the past nor will He do so in the future.

Tom, I simply trying to understand your position. It sounds like you are hesitant to answer the questions I posted above. That's cool.

I'm not hesitent. I've thought about your questions quite a bit, and am anxious to discuss the thoughts I've had. However, before doing that, I have the desire that the validity of the argument be recognized.

It's like the story that if you give a person a fish, that satisfies the hunger for a moment. But if you teach that person to fish, you satisfy their hunger forever.

As I mentioned, the questions you asked are not difficult to answer. You yourself should be able to find the answers. Just start with what we know: "All that man can know of God was revealed in the life and character of His Son" and then consider where you want to go -- e.g. some act of God or Christ which you find does not match what happened in Christ's life.

To give one example, you mentioned that Christ did not judge while on eathe, but will in the future. However, if the argument I presented in valid, then what you have stated is impossible. Either Christ did judge while on earth, or He will not in the future. Which is it?

As Jesus stated several times, He judges no man. This is in the sense of condemnation, and in this sense He will never judge, as He Himself pointed out "He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day."

If I just answer your questions one by one without your thinking them through for yourself, you'll just keep asking more questions. I'm more interested in your being able to answer your own questions, based on the principles involved. The principles are the important thing. Once you undestand the principles, you can answer the questions.

This is why I'm concentrating on the argument. If the argument is sound, then you can proceed on the basis of confidence, knowing that the question will have an answer. That is, if you understand that all that we can know of God was revealed in Christ, then you know that whatever it is you are trying to understand about God is revealed in Christ. You know right where to look. And as Christ said, "Seek and ye shall find." It might take some doing, but you will find the answer in the life of Christ.

Ok, back to the argument. The premises are:
1)Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever.
2)All that we can know of God was revealed in the life and character of His Son in His humanity.

The conclusion is:
3)God (whether the Father or the Son) acts no differently at any time than what we see revealed in Jesus Christ.

Do you agree with this argument? If not, do you take issue with the premises, or with the conclusion?

Tom, we both already know what I believe. But what do you believe? I believe the answers to the questions is Jesus did not behave like Almighty God when He walked the earth as a human. He did not do everything He did before His incarnation because His mission was different.