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Re: Why humanity need redemption? #73377
04/30/06 05:10 AM
04/30/06 05:10 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:

To complete my understanding and knowledge of the topic above, could you please specify, what God had done for humanity through Christ death at the cross, a complete one.





Given that the cross will be the study of eternity, I don't think I can give a truly complete answer, but I will be happy to share a few thoughts.

To start off, I'd like to discuss a bit, what problem was it that needed to be solved for humanity. I'm going to quote some from Ty Gibson's book, "See God With New Eyes" as I think he expresses the ideas clearly and eloquently:

Quote:

Human perception of the divine character was first distorted in the hearts and minds of our original parents, Adam and Eve...Satan toald Adam and Eve a two-pronged lie about God's character.(1) God cannot be trusted (2) because He is totally self-serving and does not have your best interest at heart. Satan painted a new picture of God, and we became rebels by believing that dark portrait...We now imagine our Maker to be someone He is not, and that distorted picture has deeply wounded our capacity to relate to God with love and trust.




He summarizes the thought here:

Quote:

Sin itself, by virture of what it is, has hidden God's character from our hearts and minds. Because of sin, there are things we believe about God that are not true.




I believe this is humanity's basic problem. We do not know the truth about God. We have believed a lie. So if this is the problem, what is the solution?

The solution is for us to see the truth about God. God revealing Himself to humanity is the theme of Scripture. The truth about God was most eloquently portrayed by Jesus Christ.

Quote:

1In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 3The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. (Hebrews 1:1-3)




John, in particular, dwells on this theme:

Quote:

No one has ever seen God. The only Son, who is truly God and is closest to the Father, has shown us what God is like. (John 1:18)




The Gospel can be summed up in the words of Jesus Christ:

Quote:

He that hath seen me hath seen the Father. (John 14:9)




The wondrous truth that Jesus made clear is that God is just like Him. If we want to know what God is like, just look at Jesus.

The whole purpose of Christ's mission was to reveal God to us, to bring us to God.

Quote:

Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. (ST 1/20/90)




Regarding the cross, I believe it's a mistake to isolate the cross from Jesus' life, death and resurrection. All three should be considered together as a part of Christ's mission: to reveal God. We may consider the cross as the highest peak of that revelation, as it shows more clearly than anything else the truth about God. God is not in any way self-serving, but has our best interests so at heart that there is no end to the lengths He will go in giving of Himself in order to rescue us.

To the end of better understanding the significance of the cross, I would suggest a careful reading of the chapter "It Is Finished" of "The Desire of Ages." This chapter is the one following "Calvary" and was written for the purpose of explaining what Christ accomplished at the cross. Here are a few thoughts from that chapter:

Quote:

Not until the death of Christ was the character of Satan clearly revealed to the angels or to the unfallen worlds. The archapostate had so clothed himself with deception that even holy beings had not understood his principles. They had not clearly seen the nature of his rebellion.




The cross made clear the character of Satan.

Quote:

Satan saw that his disguise was torn away. His administration was laid open before the unfallen angels and before the heavenly universe. He had revealed himself as a murderer. By shedding the blood of the Son of God, he had uprooted himself from the sympathies of the heavenly beings. Henceforth his work was restricted. Whatever attitude he might assume, he could no longer await the angels as they came from the heavenly courts, and before them accuse Christ's brethren of being clothed with the garments of blackness and the defilement of sin. The last link of sympathy between Satan and the heavenly world was broken.




The cross won the Great Controversy as far as unfallen beings are concerned. Satan was cast down. His influence was curtailed.

Quote:

But even as a sinner, man was in a different position from that of Satan. Lucifer in heaven had sinned in the light of God's glory. To him as to no other created being was given a revelation of God's love. Understanding the character of God, knowing His goodness, Satan chose to follow his own selfish, independent will. This choice was final. There was no more that God could do to save him. But man was deceived; his mind was darkened by Satan's sophistry. The height and depth of the love of God he did not know. For him there was hope in a knowledge of God's love. By beholding His character he might be drawn back to God.




The cross reveals the height and depth of the love of God so that by beholding this love we might be brought back to God. Peter also talks about this:

Quote:

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God. (1 Pet. 3:18)




Some other points brought out are that Christ proved the law could be obeyed, that the law could not be set aside, and that Christ gives us His life and character as free gifts.

Finally she discusses how the cross made clear the dynamics of the destruction of the wicked:

Quote:

This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.

At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe.




The cross allows the truth to be seen that the inevitable results of sin is death and what that death looks like.

These are just a few ideas, James. It's an inexhaustible subject. I hope these thoughts are helpful.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why humanity need redemption? #73378
04/30/06 07:18 AM
04/30/06 07:18 AM
J
James Saptenno  Offline OP
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
Tom.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, I really appreciate it. It may expand my thoughts and views in studying the bible especially this topic, which according to me is very important. And I see that you are really consistent in your thoughts and ideas so far, but I agree with you in a whole except for some details.

Maybe others might help me to widen my perspective on this topic by sharing your ideas? I am sure that some of you have your ownc thoughts and ideas as according to your own study. Let’s hear of it!

In His love

James S.

Re: Why humanity need redemption? #73379
04/30/06 08:35 AM
04/30/06 08:35 AM
J
James Saptenno  Offline OP
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
Tom.

How about this idea, which is mine for a long time. Where does it lack of biblical support?

Humanity died because they inherit Adam’s dead body as they were all born in his image and his likeness. Adam died because he ate the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, in spite God had warned him. In this fruit God had created death, by eating it, Adam and Eve died.

Death exist even before there is a legal law, and without the existence of the legal Law, sin is not taken into account, so death as the wages of sin could not be applied to humanity.

Our 1st death is the result of Adam’s eating the fruit of “death.”
Our 2nd death is the wage of our sin that transgress the law of God, after the Law came into effect at Sinai.

Christ had saved humanity from the 1st death by giving his own life, and those who believe him, who is in him through faith, would inherit life eternal in the kingdom of God. Those who did not believe him would die the 2nd death.

Why Christ came and died to save us? Because God love us so much that he couldn’t standstill to see human destruction, born to die. Because men couldn’t save them selves and that because God couldn’t just forgives their sins and gave them a place in heaven with him, because by doing that he would stand against the integrity of his principle and his law and bring sin into heaven with the risk of it’s development.

By offering himself for the sake of humanity (to save them), God had unmasked the lies and evilness of the Devil, eventually proving himself the way he introduce himself towards men and his angels.

In His love

James S

Re: Why humanity need redemption? #73380
04/30/06 06:58 PM
04/30/06 06:58 PM
Darius  Offline
Dedicated Member
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
Quote:

Quote:

That's not quite true the way you want it to read. Knowing anything about an infinite being would include knowing that there is no way you could evey know everything about that Being. If you claim to know everything about that Being you are also saying that the Being is not infinite.




When Jesus said that to know God is eternal life, why would you understand that to mean He had in mind knowing everythiing about an infinite being? This seems to me to be a forced interpretation. Do you disagree?


Tom, I responded to your challenge after I said that anyone who claims to know God does not know God. Why would you now attribute to me this "forces interpretation?" Let's keep on track here. I have clearly stated the view that the unknown cannot be fully known, so I could not believe that is what Jesus meant. To do so I would have to believe that He was making life eternal an impossible goal.


Darius A. Lecointe, J.D., Ph.D.
No weapon formed against me shall prosper.
Re: Why humanity need redemption? #73381
04/30/06 11:49 PM
04/30/06 11:49 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Humanity died because they inherit Adam’s dead body as they were all born in his image and his likeness. Adam died because he ate the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, in spite God had warned him. In this fruit God had created death, by eating it, Adam and Eve died.

God did not created death; Satan did. Death is the inevitable result of sin.

Free will is very important to God, so God allowed Satan the opportunity to tempt Adam and Eve. This Satan did by misrepresenting God's character. Believing Satan's lies is what led to Adam and Eve's death.


Death exist even before there is a legal law, and without the existence of the legal Law, sin is not taken into account, so death as the wages of sin could not be applied to humanity.

The death that results from sin has nothing to do with legal law. The law makes evident what was always the case. It doesn't add anything new in terms of either creating righteousness or death where it did not exist. What the law does do is make evident what righteousness is, the purpose of which is to lead us to Christ.

Our 1st death is the result of Adam’s eating the fruit of “death.”
Our 2nd death is the wage of our sin that transgress the law of God, after the Law came into effect at Sinai.

It's true that our first death comes as a result of Adam's sin, but our second death has absolutely nothing to do with the law being proclaimed at Sinai.

Christ had saved humanity from the 1st death by giving his own life, and those who believe him, who is in him through faith, would inherit life eternal in the kingdom of God. Those who did not believe him would die the 2nd death.

Why Christ came and died to save us? Because God love us so much that he couldn’t standstill to see human destruction, born to die. Because men couldn’t save them selves and that because God couldn’t just forgives their sins and gave them a place in heaven with him, because by doing that he would stand against the integrity of his principle and his law and bring sin into heaven with the risk of it’s development.

By offering himself for the sake of humanity (to save them), God had unmasked the lies and evilness of the Devil, eventually proving himself the way he introduce himself towards men and his angels.

I like this last part. God had to make clear the differences between His character and the character of the enemy, and between the principles of His government and the alternative. This God made clear in Jesus Christ.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why humanity need redemption? #73382
04/30/06 11:58 PM
04/30/06 11:58 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Darius, it's not clear to me what you are saying. From what you wrote earlier, it seemed you were defining knowing God as knowing everything about an infinite being. From your most recent post, it appears you have some other definition in mind. What are you trying to say?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why humanity need redemption? #73383
05/02/06 02:22 PM
05/02/06 02:22 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
James, a long time ago the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit decided to create free moral agents, that is, beings capable of cultivating sinless traits of character. They knew in advance that one third of the angels would rebel and eventually die in the lake of fire. They also knew that the majority of the human race would refuse redemption and die in the lake of fire. But they choose to create angels and mankind anyhow.

Why do you think they chose to create angels and mankind?

DA 22
The plan for our redemption was not an afterthought, a plan formulated after the fall of Adam. It was a revelation of "the mystery which hath been kept in silence through times eternal." Rom. 16:25, R. V. It was an unfolding of the principles that from eternal ages have been the foundation of God's throne. From the beginning, God and Christ knew of the apostasy of Satan, and of the fall of man through the deceptive power of the apostate. God did not ordain that sin should exist, but He foresaw its existence, and made provision to meet the terrible emergency. So great was His love for the world, that He covenanted to give His only-begotten Son, "that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16. {DA 22.2}

TMK 18
The fall of man, with all its consequences, was not hidden from the Omnipotent. Redemption was not an afterthought, a plan formulated after the fall of Adam, but an eternal purpose, suffered to be wrought out for the blessing not only of this atom of a world, but for the good of all the worlds that God had created. {TMK 18.2}

AG 129
The purpose and plan of grace existed from all eternity. Before the foundation of the world it was according to the determinate counsel of God that man should be created, endowed with power to do the divine will. But the defection of man, with all its consequences, was not hidden from the Omnipotent, and yet it did not deter Him from carrying out His eternal purpose; for the Lord would establish His throne in righteousness. God knows the end from the beginning. {AG 129.2}

Re: Why humanity need redemption? #73384
05/02/06 02:42 PM
05/02/06 02:42 PM
Darius  Offline
Dedicated Member
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
Quote:

Darius, it's not clear to me what you are saying. From what you wrote earlier, it seemed you were defining knowing God as knowing everything about an infinite being. From your most recent post, it appears you have some other definition in mind. What are you trying to say?


Knowledge is restricted by the characteristics of the object being known. A finite being can potentially be completely known but that is not a possibility with an infinite being. Hence, to know an infinite being implies a perpetual search for that knowledge.


Darius A. Lecointe, J.D., Ph.D.
No weapon formed against me shall prosper.
Re: Why humanity need redemption? #73385
05/02/06 04:47 PM
05/02/06 04:47 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Sure, a perpetual search for knowledge is implied. Knowing God is an ongoing process; it's eternal life!


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why humanity need redemption? #73386
05/02/06 05:55 PM
05/02/06 05:55 PM
Darius  Offline
Dedicated Member
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
Quote:

Sure, a perpetual search for knowledge is implied. Knowing God is an ongoing process; it's eternal life!


So it is especially premature for any human or group of humans to proclaim that they have the truth about the Creator. One's views may be true but that does not mean it is the truth.


Darius A. Lecointe, J.D., Ph.D.
No weapon formed against me shall prosper.
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