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Re: Ty Gibson on the sin problem and the atonement #74831
06/09/06 03:20 PM
06/09/06 03:20 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Thank you, Tom. But you seem to be equating the benefits of Jesus' life and death with why they were necessary.

Why are you making a distinction here? Why do you insist that we cannot know why Jesus died for us when God has spent to much time and energy to tell us?

Do you agree that if Adam and Eve had successfully resisted Satan that the GC would have ended without us sinning and without the death of Jesus?

I agree it could have. It seems speculative to guess what might have happened had Adam and Eve not sinned. Maybe one of the other worlds would have sinned. Maybe God would have devised some other way of dealing with the Great Controversy.

Certainly the principle of the cross would have needed to have been understood, as it is only this principle which secures the universe, as the Spirit of Prophecy explained. However, it is possible God could have made this principle clear in some other way than Christ's actually dying had noone sinned other than the angels.

Remember, however, that the Great Controversy would still need to be resolved, even if man hadn't sinned, and man's not sinning would not resolve it. Man wasn't the issue -- God was. The cross resolved the issue by making clear God's character and the character of the adversary, as the Spirit of Prophecy points out.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Ty Gibson on the sin problem and the atonement #74832
06/09/06 03:30 PM
06/09/06 03:30 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Why? Why was the life and death of Jesus necessary to redeem us?

This is a wonderful question to ponder. From Scripture:

For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us[e] to God. (1 Pet. 3:18)

For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled. (Col. 1:19-21)


From the Spirit of Prophecy:

But even as a sinner, man was in a different position from that of Satan. Lucifer in heaven had sinned in the light of God's glory. To him as to no other created being was given a revelation of God's love. Understanding the character of God, knowing His goodness, Satan chose to follow his own selfish, independent will. This choice was final. There was no more that God could do to save him. But man was deceived; his mind was darkened by Satan's sophistry. The height and depth of the love of God he did not know. For him there was hope in a knowledge of God's love. By beholding His character he might be drawn back to God. (DA 762)

Jesus died in order that we might know the height and depth of the love of God, that we might receive hope in the knowledge of God, that by beholding His character we might be drawn back to God.

Note how similar the language of Paul, Peter and Ellen White: Paul "reconciled"; Peter "bring us to God."; Ellen White "drawn back to God."

There's much more involved in Jesus' death than this, as the whole Great Controversy is involved. A good place to study from the Spirit of Prophecy on this subject is "It is Finished" from the Desire of Ages.

A final point is that we have a tendency to separate Christ's death from His life, which isn't a good way of looking at it. A better way, IMO, is to think of it like Mt. Everest, with the cross being the peak. Christ's whole life was for the explicity purpose of revealing God. Everything He did was for that purpose. The culmination of that purpose was His death, but the purpose of His death was no different than the purpose of His life.


Why is it the only way Jesus can pardon and save us?

Because that's the only way we could see the truth.

Why would Adam and Eve's victory have secured the universe against future sinning without the earthly life and death of Jesus?

Where are you getting this from?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Ty Gibson on the sin problem and the atonement #74833
06/09/06 05:44 PM
06/09/06 05:44 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Tom, nowhere in the sacred writings is there an explanation of why Jesus’ life and death makes pardon and salvation possible, why it empowers sinners to resist sin and to imitate Jesus’ sinless example. Death meant more back then than it does now. We are severely desensitized to death and dying. It doesn’t impact us as much as it did Adam and Eve.

Knowing that Jesus would someday suffer for their sins and die their second death motivated Adam and Eve to cooperate with the plan of salvation in a way that gave them power and victory over sin, self, and Satan. Apparently this is the only thing that could successfully impress upon them the importance of obedience and the consequences of sinning.

But there is more to it than the moral influence that the sacrificial life and death of Jesus has upon fallen beings. That is, God insists upon punishing and destroying someone on account of the sins we commit. And not just because it motivates a few to repent and reform.

I can relate to the part of Jesus’ life and death on my behalf motivating me to seek salvation and eternal life through God’s appointed way. But there is the part about God requiring punishment and death for the sins we have committed. I cannot escape this reality. It is mysterious to me. By faith I believe it will one day, perhaps zillions of years into eternity, dawn upon me why God could not eliminate our sins without punishing Jesus on the cross and then placing our sins upon Satan in the lake of fire.

SR 24
If they endured the trial they were to be in perpetual favor with God and the heavenly angels. {SR 24.2}

SR 30, 31
If they remained steadfast against the first insinuations of Satan, they were as secure as the heavenly angels. {SR 30.2}

SR 41
They promised that they would in the future yield to God implicit obedience. They were informed that in their fall from innocence to guilt they gained no strength but great weakness. They had not preserved their integrity while they were in a state of holy, happy innocence, and they would have far less strength to remain true and loyal in a state of conscious guilt. They were filled with keenest anguish and remorse. They now realized that the penalty of sin was death. {SR 40.3}

SR 42, 43
He then made known to the angelic host that a way of escape had been made for lost man. He told them that He had been pleading with His Father, and had offered to give His life a ransom, to take the sentence of death upon Himself, that through Him man might find pardon; that through the merits of His blood, and obedience to the law of God, they could have the favor of God and be brought into the beautiful garden and eat of the fruit of the tree of life. {SR 42.2}

SR 45
Said the angel, "Think ye that the Father yielded up His dearly beloved Son without a struggle? No, no. It was even a struggle with the God of heaven, whether to let guilty man perish, or to give His beloved Son to die for him." Angels were so interested for man's salvation that there could be found among them those who would yield their glory and give their life for perishing man, "But," said my accompanying angel, "that would avail nothing. The transgression was so great that an angel's life would not pay the debt. Nothing but the death and intercessions of His Son would pay the debt and save lost man from hopeless sorrow and misery." {SR 45.1}

SR 46
They were then informed that the Son of God, who had conversed with them in Eden, had been moved with pity as He viewed their hopeless condition, and had volunteered to take upon Himself the punishment due to them, and die for them that man might yet live, through faith in the atonement Christ proposed to make for him. Through Christ a door of hope was opened, that man, notwithstanding his great sin, should not be under the absolute control of Satan. Faith in the merits of the Son of God would so elevate man that he could resist the devices of Satan. Probation would be granted him in which, through a life of repentance and faith in the atonement of the Son of God, he might be redeemed from his transgression of the Father's law, and thus be elevated to a position where his efforts to keep His law could be accepted. {SR 46.3}

SR 48
Adam was informed that an angel's life could not pay the debt. The law of Jehovah, the foundation of His government in heaven and upon earth, was as sacred as God Himself; and for this reason the life of an angel could not be accepted of God as a sacrifice for its transgression. His law is of more importance in His sight than the holy angels around His throne. The Father could not abolish or change one precept of His law to meet man in his fallen condition. But the Son of God, who had in unison with the Father created man, could make an atonement for man acceptable to God, by giving His life a sacrifice and bearing the wrath of His Father. Angels informed Adam that, as his transgression had brought death and wretchedness, life and immortality would be brought to light through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. {SR 48.1}

SR 50
This ceremonial offering, ordained of God, was to be a perpetual reminder to Adam of his guilt, and also a penitential acknowledgment of his sin. This act of taking life gave Adam a deeper and more perfect sense of his transgression, which nothing less than the death of God's dear Son could expiate. He marveled at the infinite goodness and matchless love which would give such a ransom to save the guilty. As Adam was slaying the innocent victim, it seemed to him that he was shedding the blood of the Son of God by his own hand. He knew that if he had remained steadfast to God, and true to His holy law, there would have been no death of beast nor of man. Yet in the sacrificial offerings, pointing to the great and perfect offering of God's dear Son, there appeared a star of hope to illuminate the dark and terrible future, and relieve it of its utter hopelessness and ruin. {SR 50.2}

SR 51
Without the atonement of the Son of God there could be no communication of blessing or salvation from God to man. God was jealous for the honor of His law. The transgression of that law caused a fearful separation between God and man. To Adam in his innocency was granted communion, direct, free, and happy, with his Maker. After his transgression God would communicate to man through Christ and angels. {SR 50.3}

Re: Ty Gibson on the sin problem and the atonement #74834
06/09/06 06:56 PM
06/09/06 06:56 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Tom, nowhere in the sacred writings is there an explanation of why Jesus’ life and death makes pardon and salvation possible, why it empowers sinners to resist sin and to imitate Jesus’ sinless example.

Rest assured, the Lord wants you to know the reason for Christ's life and death, and He will teach you if you want to know. I'm sorry you're having trouble seeing it.

Death meant more back then than it does now. We are severely desensitized to death and dying. It doesn’t impact us as much as it did Adam and Eve.

The impact of the death of Christ is not limited to physical death, which is what you are referring to. It is a spiritual matter, and spiritual things are spitually discerned. The cross is just as understandable now as in the past; more so, in fact, because we have more light about it.

Knowing that Jesus would someday suffer for their sins and die their second death motivated Adam and Eve to cooperate with the plan of salvation in a way that gave them power and victory over sin, self, and Satan. Apparently this is the only thing that could successfully impress upon them the importance of obedience and the consequences of sinning.

These weren't the primary issues. The primary issues had to do with God's character. As the Spirit of Prophecy points out, by a knowledge of God's character, man could be drawn back to God. The whole purpose of Christ's mission, as she says, was the revelation of God, in order to set man right with God. To know God is life eternal. A knowledge of God is the essential thing.

But there is more to it than the moral influence that the sacrificial life and death of Jesus has upon fallen beings.

Are you confusing what I've been quoting from Scripture and the Spirit of Prophecy with the moral influence theory? I'm guessing that because of your use of the phrase "moral influence." The moral influence theory is quite different from the ideas I've been quoting. I can go into detail about this if you are interested.

That is, God insists upon punishing and destroying someone on account of the sins we commit. And not just because it motivates a few to repent and reform.

God punishes sin by giving those who have given themselves over to is to the effects of their choice. The destruction of the wicked, to use Ellen White's words, is "not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God" but rather "the result of their own choice." She goes on to explain that the glory of God must consume sin, and if one refuses to be separated from it, one will be destroyed along with the sin. But this is not something arbitrary which God insists on doing. It's a matter of reality. To sin, wherever it is found, God is a consuming fire. This is something which is, not something God does arbitrarily.

I can relate to the part of Jesus’ life and death on my behalf motivating me to seek salvation and eternal life through God’s appointed way. But there is the part about God requiring punishment and death for the sins we have committed. I cannot escape this reality. It is mysterious to me. By faith I believe it will one day, perhaps zillions of years into eternity, dawn upon me why God could not eliminate our sins without punishing Jesus on the cross and then placing our sins upon Satan in the lake of fire.

I also hope someday you can understand the Plan of Salvation. I hope it doesn't take so long as you think it might.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Ty Gibson on the sin problem and the atonement #74835
06/09/06 08:59 PM
06/09/06 08:59 PM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
Once someone told me that he couldnt explain the trinity, yet he believed it is true. But others have atempted to explain it. Maybe it is the same with this question of atonement. Some can explain why Jesus had to die and for some it remains a mystery, but both groups believe it happened for the salvation of thier souls. And maybe that is ok, maybe a childs faith is all that is required, "God Father said it and thats good enough for me" faith.
Some need to know why and God will reveal for those who seek, some dont need to understand the detaljs, both groups live in faith and are counted righteous for it as Abraham.

/Thomas


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: Ty Gibson on the sin problem and the atonement #74836
06/09/06 09:14 PM
06/09/06 09:14 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Tom, our differences regarding sin and death and salvation is preventing us from going any further in this study. I believe you are overlooking or discounting or misinterpreting the punitive aspect of the cross and the plan of salvation. You seem to be saying that God simply allows us to reap what we have sown and that this is what constitutes the wrath of God.

But you also go on to say (somewhere on MSDAOL) that God is postponing the true results of sinning, namely, immediate death. Therefore, as I see it, what you call reaping what we sow is actually not the true results of sinning, but are in fact the results of God postponing the true results.

Nevertheless, none of these insights help me understand why Jesus’ life and death can legally or really atone for my sin and death. You haven’t addressed this aspect of the plan of salvation. I agree with you that Jesus’ life and death inspires me to appreciate the kingdom and character of God, but it doesn’t help me understand why His life and death can atone for my sin and death.

There is nothing right or fair about God allowing Jesus to pay my sin debt. I can see how an unbeliever might question the ethics and legitimacy of it. I can see how they might think if anything is arbitrary about the plan of salvation it is God allowing Jesus to pay my sin debt. So I'm asking you - Why isn't it arbitrary? What makes it right and fair?

Re: Ty Gibson on the sin problem and the atonement #74837
06/09/06 09:16 PM
06/09/06 09:16 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
These are two different things, Thomas. It is very important that we understand God's character. This is the essence of the Great Controversy.

Quote:

It is Satan's constant effort to misrepresent the character of God, the nature of sin, and the real issues at stake in the great controversy. (GC 569)




Satan seeks to misrepresent these things while God seeks to have us understand them.

The nature of God is something beyond our abilities to understand, and God has not revealed that much to us about it. The character of God, otoh, is something God is very interested that we know, and He has given us tremendous amounts of information so that we can know Him.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Ty Gibson on the sin problem and the atonement #74838
06/09/06 09:51 PM
06/09/06 09:51 PM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
Tom

Good point, will have to consider that more.

/Thomas


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: Ty Gibson on the sin problem and the atonement #74839
06/09/06 10:35 PM
06/09/06 10:35 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Tom, our differences regarding sin and death and salvation is preventing us from going any further in this study. I believe you are overlooking or discounting or misinterpreting the punitive aspect of the cross and the plan of salvation.

I don't think so. The punitive aspects of the plan of salvation is that sin results in death. This is exactly what we see in the cross. Christ was made to be sin for us, and He died. He died of mental agony, as He perceived the sinfulness of sin. This is well described in "Calvary" in "The Desire of Ages."

Christ did not die because God killed Him. Ellen White takes great pains to make sure this is understood.


You seem to be saying that God simply allows us to reap what we have sown and that this is what constitutes the wrath of God.

That's what I've been quoting, yes. DA 764, which I've quoted many times, says exactly this:

This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.

But you also go on to say (somewhere on MSDAOL) that God is postponing the true results of sinning, namely, immediate death. Therefore, as I see it, what you call reaping what we sow is actually not the true results of sinning, but are in fact the results of God postponing the true results.

This seems like a twisted way of looking at it. Let's take a look at a statement from the Spirit of Prophecy:

We should not try to lessen our guilt by excusing sin. We must accept God's estimate of sin, and that is heavy indeed. Calvary alone can reveal the terrible enormity of sin. If we had to bear our own guilt, it would crush us. But the sinless One has taken our place; though undeserving, He has borne our iniquity.(MB 116)

This is true of everyone, not just believers. If any person had to bear their own guilt, it would crush them (as it will in the end of time, when the wicked our destroyed). But Christ bears everyone's guilt, so that sin does not immediately kill them. This seems very clear to me. Is it not clear to you that if Christ were, even for a moment, to stop bearing our guilt that it would crush us?

So sin, through guilt, would crush us, but because of God's grace we are blithely ignornant of our guilt. However, at the judgment, the wicked will become aware of their guilt, and it will crush them.

To suggest that they die because of God's allowing them to bear their guilt seems to me to be a very strange way of looking at it. All a man's life God is pleading with him through His Spirit to be reconciled to Him, but the man says He wants nothing to do with God. Eventually God leaves Edom alone with his idols, and he dies. This is not God's fault.


Nevertheless, none of these insights help me understand why Jesus’ life and death can legally or really atone for my sin and death.

I think the difficult is because you are not focusing on the real issue. Please consider the following:

But even as a sinner, man was in a different position from that of Satan. Lucifer in heaven had sinned in the light of God's glory. To him as to no other created being was given a revelation of God's love. Understanding the character of God, knowing His goodness, Satan chose to follow his own selfish, independent will. This choice was final. There was no more that God could do to save him. But man was deceived; his mind was darkened by Satan's sophistry. The height and depth of the love of God he did not know. For him there was hope in a knowledge of God's love. By beholding His character he might be drawn back to God. (DA 762)

Do you see what this is saying, Mike? That there is hope for man in a knowledge of God's love? By beholding God's character, man can be reconciled to God? This is the Gospel. Christ's life and death makes it possible for man to behold God and live.

The very attributes that belonged to the character of Satan, the evil one represented as belonging to the character of God. Jesus came to teach men of the Father, to correctly represent him before the fallen children of earth. Angels could not fully portray the character of God, but Christ, who was a living impersonation of God, could not fail to accomplish the work. The only way in which he could set and keep men right was to make himself visible and familiar to their eyes. That men might have salvation he came directly to man, and became a partaker of his nature. (ST 1/20/90)

The problem of man is that he has not understood God's character. To make it plain, God became a man. He made Himself visible and familiar to our eyes, that we might have salvation, that we might be set right and kept right with Him. By beholding God as His is in Christ, we are drawn to Him. His goodness leads us to repentance. The light shining from the cross draws us to Him. It beckons us to unite ourselves to Him. By the revelation of truth, God wins us to Himself, if we do not resist Him.

You haven’t addressed this aspect of the plan of salvation.

There is no other aspect of the Plan of Salvation than what I have been presenting. *All* that is necessary is that we know God. To know God is life eternal. Please take note of the following quote, also from the ST article quoted above:

Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. In Christ was arrayed before men the paternal grace and the matchless perfections of the Father. In his prayer just before his crucifixion, he declared, "I have manifested thy name." "I have glorified thee on the earth; I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do." When the object of his mission was attained,--the revelation of God to the world,--the Son of God announced that his work was accomplished, and that the character of the Father was made manifest to men.

What was the object of Christ's mission? The revelation of God to the world. This is *all* that is necessary. Note she makes this point in two ways. First of all, she says it "Christ exalted the character of God,...the whole purpose of His own mission on earth, to set men right through the revelation of God." Please note this was the *whole* purpose. Secondly she states that when the object of His mission was accomplished, to reveal the character of God, that His work was accomplished.

This is not at all difficult to understand. A child can understand this. Where the difficult comes in is when we want to make things more complicated than this. Then there is difficult in understanding it, because it's not more complicated than this. There aren't other aspects of Christ's sacrifice that need to be taken into consideration, because to reveal God was the whole purpose of everything Christ did -- everything.

So if we try to understand the death of Christ, or any other aspect of His life, divorced from the purpose of His mission, to reveal God's character to us, then we are destined to be confused. It cannot be otherwise.


I agree with you that Jesus’ life and death inspires me to appreciate the kingdom and character of God, but it doesn’t help me understand why His life and death can atone for my sin and death.

I think you're scratching where it doesn't itch. You're trying to understand a problem which doesn't exist, and that's why you can't understand it.

There is nothing right or fair about God allowing Jesus to pay my sin debt.

I can see how an unbeliever might question the ethics and legitimacy of it. I can see how they might think if anything is arbitrary about the plan of salvation it is God allowing Jesus to pay my sin debt. So I'm asking you - Why isn't it arbitrary? What makes it right and fair?

I'd suggest re-reading the second Ty Gibson quote I presented, about the two party and three party way of looking at the atonement. I think you're trying to look at it as a three party system, which would be unfair, as you point out, and arbitrary, as Ty points out.

I think Ty does an excellent job laying out the issues and problems associated with the three party view.

I'll await your comments. I wish you well.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Ty Gibson on the sin problem and the atonement #74840
06/10/06 12:24 AM
06/10/06 12:24 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
TE: Christ did not die because God killed Him. Ellen White takes great pains to make sure this is understood.

MM: It has been pointed elsewhere that the scapegoat is the one who dies the second death in the lake of fire – not the Lord’s goat. That’s why Jesus didn’t die in a lake of fire.

TE: Is it not clear to you that if Christ were, even for a moment, to stop bearing our guilt that it would crush us?

MM: Yes, that’s my point. The long lingering death we suffer is not the real result of sinning because the real result is instant death – the second death. The reason we suffer and die gradually is because of the plan of salvation. I’m not blaming God for the way things are. But the way things are is not the real result of sinning. Again, the real result of sinning is instant death.

TE: However, at the judgment, the wicked will become aware of their guilt, and it will crush them. To suggest that they die because of God's allowing them to bear their guilt seems to me to be a very strange way of looking at it.

MM: Strange indeed. The truth is that the cause of suffering and death in the lake of fire are attributed to several things – 1) enduring their guilt without a mediator, 2) realizing that they have lost out on eternity in heaven, 3) realizing they were duped and deceived, and last, but not least, 4) slowly burning up according their sinfulness in a seething lake of fire.

TE: Do you see what this is saying, Mike? That there is hope for man in a knowledge of God's love? By beholding God's character, man can be reconciled to God? This is the Gospel. Christ's life and death makes it possible for man to behold God and live.

MM: Yes, I see it. I have said as much on several occasions.

TE: I think you're scratching where it doesn't itch. You're trying to understand a problem which doesn't exist, and that's why you can't understand it.

MM: I’m sorry you think so.

TE: I think Ty does an excellent job laying out the issues and problems associated with the three party view.

MM: The problem is I disagree with Ty’s view of the third party victim. He pretends to understand why the life and death of Jesus satisfies the just demands of God and His broken law, why His life and death makes pardon and salvation possible. Ty does not address the questions I’m asking:

I can see how an unbeliever might question the ethics and legitimacy of it. I can see how they might think if anything is arbitrary about the plan of salvation it is God allowing Jesus to pay my sin debt.

So I'm asking you - Why isn't it arbitrary? What makes it right and fair? How can God promise eternal death upon disobedience and then turn around and amend it by allowing Jesus to pay my sin debt? How is that not a contradiction, a compromise?

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