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James versus Paul. #7645
03/24/01 05:54 PM
03/24/01 05:54 PM
J
James Saptenno  Offline OP
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
James 4:17 “ Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.”

Paul in Romans 7:18,21-23 “For I know that in me (that is in my flesh) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.”

Do James agree with Paul or is it a contradiction?

In His love

James S.


Re: James versus Paul. #7646
03/30/01 12:32 PM
03/30/01 12:32 PM
Gerry Buck  Offline
Charter Member
Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,859
Benton Harbor, Mi.
No, they don't contradict.
James and Paul are talking about 2 different things.
On the one hand, you have James saying that if we know that to do something is right, and we don't do it, it is sin.

Paul, on the other hand, is stating that he knows what is right, but there isn't in him the ability to do it on his own, because the 'natural' man wants to do what is wrong.

He goes on to state that the indwelling Christ (via the Holy Spirit) gives him the will and the ability to do what is right.

He is saying we can't do it on our own.

But, 'I can do all things through Christ, who is my strength'.

[This message has been edited by Gerry Buck (edited March 30, 2001).]


Re: James versus Paul. #7647
04/01/01 04:35 AM
04/01/01 04:35 AM
J
James Saptenno  Offline OP
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
I think James and Paul did not contradict.

James said, that if some one knows to do good but do it not, that is a sin. According to Paul we know to do good (our inward man which delight in the law of God) but have no power to perform it. From our own we can do no good things, because all is contaminated with the love for self, all is based to satisfy the flesh. So we remain a sinner and continuously sinning, as we know to do good (what is good) but can’t perform the deeds.

Again, according to Paul, we can perform good deeds only if we let Christ through His Spirit does the willing and the doing in us. It is a life after the Spirit, and the performance is fruit of the Spirit. But if we, believers in Christ, choose to live for self by serving the flesh, we will die, because we grieved the Spirit till the end of God’s grace and mercy (closing of probation). So, it is in line with James too, them that know to do good (by living after the Spirit) but serve the flesh, it is a sin.

The question now is, when we start to do the first good deed and how it happen?

In His love

James S.


Re: James versus Paul. #7648
04/21/01 07:31 PM
04/21/01 07:31 PM
A
Andrew Marttinen  Offline
Pastor
Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,471
Carleton Place, Ontario, Canad...
Paul was pretty good at telling off those who came into conflict with him.

He never does this to James.

------------------
Be glad for all God is planning for you. Be patient in trouble, and always be prayerful. Rom. 12:12 NLT


Re: James versus Paul. #7649
07/21/01 07:28 AM
07/21/01 07:28 AM
M
Mogens H. Sorensen  Offline
Posting New Member
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 25
Fredericton, NB, Canada
I must admit this is a first for me to see these two passages of scriptures compared/contrasted.

First of all I believe James is speaking of the sin of omission whereas Paul is speaking of the internal struggle the converted believer has with the propensity to sin.

Secondly, I would like to deal with the usual "apparent" contradiction between Paul and James on the subject of faith and works. (Ephesians 2:8, 9; James 2:21-24 for example.) To me you have two individuals in the Bible who are dealing with two diametrically opposed problems. Paul is arguing with the legalist, those who abuse the intent of the law. James is arguing with those who abuse grace.

It could be compared to two friends who are standing back to back defending common ground. They are fighting against different enemies using different methods to defend the common ground. Then, while they are struggling with their respective problems, you turn them around to face each other and expect them to continue by fighting against each other.

Paul and James, I believe would agree with the following statement: "Faith will lead to action or it is not faith." Paul, the great champion of faith, acted upon his faith. His love for Christ compelled him into works of love for his saviour. He did not "act" in order to be saved but because he had been saved through his faith in the atoning work of Christ. The people James were arguing with would definitely not use Paul's life as an example to prove their point. However, I believe James could have used Paul as an example of the true faith experience.

Yours in the Blessed Hope,
MHS

[This message has been edited by Mogens H. Sorensen (edited July 26, 2001).]


Re: James versus Paul. #7650
11/11/01 09:00 AM
11/11/01 09:00 AM
J
James Saptenno  Offline OP
Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
Good post, brother Mogens.

Now back to my question, what is the first good deed we perform and how it happens?

I believe, the first good deed we perform is when we accept Christ by faith and believe Him as a Son of God, our Redeemer and Savior.

This might happen because of the work of the Spirit in us as “faith” is also fruit of the Spirit, after we learn about Christ and His gospel.

What is the next good deed?

It is “living by the Spirit”, because it is the Spirit that work in us “to will and to act according to His good purpose” – Philippians 2:13. Just then we can do the good deeds that we are unable to perform by our self. Thus, without faith, all what we do is based on self. “And everything that does not come from faith is SIN.” – Romans 14:23. As this SIN is in us and is our nature, our very being, all what is done by SELF is evil as SIN dominates us (Romans 7:7-25).

And to live by the Spirit needs faith! This is what the gospel of Christ all about: “For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The just shall live by faith.” – Romans 1:17.

We know that fruit of the Spirit is LOVE (Galatians 5:22), the character of God that was shed abroad in our heart by the indwelling Spirit to change our heart, to put death to SIN that dominate us.

And when LOVE ruled our heart, we will do good deeds to our fellowman.

At this point Paul and James were one in perception.

Paul is ruled by “faith that works by love” (Galatians 5:6), and James said “If you really keep the royal law found in the Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing right” – James 2:8.

So, “love” for both James and Paul is an expression of their faith. According to James “faith without deeds (love) is dead” – James 2:26, same as what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 13:1-3.

If they both have the same perception about faith and love as the fruit of faith, then they too must have the same perception about HOW they might perform this.

According to Paul, for to have LOVE in our heart we must live by the Spirit as LOVE is fruit of the Spirit that was shed abroad in our heart. We are not suppose to live by the law, because “the law is not based on faith” (Galatians 3:12), and “everything that does not come from faith is SIN” (Romans 14:23). That means keeping or observing the law is done by the principle of self, based on self-acts, performed by the SIN in us. The text might say: “Everything that does not come from faith is done by self (SIN).”

The law doesn’t require faith from his law keeper, on the contrary “the man who does these things (performance) will live by them.” – Galatians 3:12. All the law needs is performance or obedience. And since our performance is motivated by self or the SIN in us that dominates us, the result will only be acts of the flesh or keep on doing evil, breaking the law (Romans 7:7-25).

That’s why, the law is not for the righteous man (a believer in Christ) but for the “law-breakers (law keepers) and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, unholy and irreligious, murderers etc, as according to Timothy 1:8-11.

And James has the same perception.

James 1:25 “But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it – he will be blessed in what he does.”
James 2:8 “ If you really keep the royal law found in the Scripture, “Love your neighbor as your self,” you are doing right.”

James didn’t say that a believer must keep the 10 Commandments, what he said is that a believer must keep (or have) the royal law which is love. And since he knew that love is the fruit of faith (James 2:14-25), then he knew that a believer must live by faith and not by the law.

Love is the royal law, the perfect law that gives freedom, freedom from SIN and sins. But the law (10 Commandments) only put us into prison, Prisoner of SIN (Galatians 3:23). As in order to keep the law, we must perform obedience, and that is impossible, because SIN (our self who were dominated by SIN) could not perform anything good. And since “the law is not of faith,” but requires obedience that is performed by “self” or the SIN in us, then the law could not give us freedom from SIN and sins, as it keep provoking all covetous desire in us, locked us into prisoner of SIN and put us to death ((Romans 7:5,8-11). Only the Spirit (by living after the Spirit) can set us free from SIN and death (Romans 8:1-4,13).

Thus, it is important to know that what James mentioned in James 2:10,11 is not a sign that he promotes the law as an obligation to keep for Christ believers (if so is the case, he will put himself against Paul theology) but just a COMPARISON for when you said you have love but shows favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law (love) that you are a law breaker because this act shows you have no love (agape) but selfish love (V.9).

He compared with a law keeper that breaks any one of the 10 Commandments is a lawbreaker.

And James continued with an advice that we must speak and act as those who are going to be judge by the law that gives freedom. Surely he didn’t mean the 10 Commandments, as it only made us prisoner of SIN, but LOVE will be the measure of judgment. That means, the fruit of our faith (if we claim we are Christ believers) will be the judgment of faith as it is the proof of our faith, are we a true believer that lives by faith or are we a believer that lives by self.

The just shall live by faith, it is the standard of life for true believers in Christ. If some one or the church said that the law (10 Commandments) is the standard of Christian living, then “faith has no value.”

In His love
James S.


Re: James versus Paul. #7651
11/11/01 08:27 PM
11/11/01 08:27 PM
J
Jean Miller  Offline
Full Member
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 183
USA
Amen to the above. It's great to finally be on a forum where the correct balance between faith and works is presented. I've learned that when there are what "seems" to be a contradiction between the Bible and itself, between Ellen White and herself, or between Ellen White and the Bible, that there really isn't a contraction and truth is found when the apparent contradicting statements are harmonized. Faith vs Works is a good example. Some pull out Bible quotes on faith only and say all we have to do is believe to be saved, and others pull out Bible texts which give the impression that works saves us. However, the Bible gives us the balance on this one when it says "I will show you my faith by my works."

I read where Marvin Moore said that faith and works are the flip side of the same coin. I believe he is right. Without one you don't have the other.


Re: James versus Paul. #7652
02/12/02 04:39 AM
02/12/02 04:39 AM
G
Greg Goodchild  Offline
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 413
Placerville, CA
A different story to describe the concepts of Paul and James.

In the Garden of Eden Adam and Eve were placed, and maintained, in the Garden by obedience to a relationship with Jesus. If they obeyed the commandment, do not eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, they would live. Now the issue is how would they obey and live. The only way, as was soon pointed out, was trust that Jesus knew what He was talking about and do not eat by faith. Reasoning would not allow them to understand the need for the commandment and the need to obey it. They had only to obey because they trusted in Him.

An interesting factor in the Adam and Eve story is that their natures were in harmony with God so it was far easier to obey than to disobey. They had not natural bent to sin, and they did not think of reasons to disobey. Yet satan was able to present a thought to Eve that led her to ponder the idea of distrusting Jesus. Satan led her to believe that Jesus was holding out something good from her and that by her own strength and reasoning (already the sin of the knowledge of good and evil was producing its fruit in the spirit of Eve) she could rightly assess God. When she had finished with her assessment she was deceived into making the wrong choice. When she took the fruit to Adam he was not deceived and as the ruler of the earth he knowingly chose to eat the fruit to be with Eve rather than Jesus. He was willing to take the risk to break the commandment and to hold on to grace without law.

As soon as Adam ate the fruit the law went into effect, that he started to die physically and died spiritually. His character had been wounded, his nature bent, and his nature was now in harmony with satan and not God. He immediately began to practice the old covenant behavior patterns. He felt naked, and he decided to solve the problem. He made coverings to shelter him from the nature that God had created and to cover him from the view of God. He did not ask for guidance from God because his nature had been changed. He now thought as satan thought - God will destroy me. He thought the letter of the law without the translation of the Spirit. Again his logic took over since his heart was dead in trespasses and sins.

When Jesus came to seek Adam and Eve He found them afraid of His approach due to grief, guilt, and their changed perceptions of His love. He confronted them, promised them, and then covered them with garments that He had prepared for them.

The Genesis story is the simplest story of how much God loves us. He created man, gave man power to obey and live, and then gave him an environment to grow and develop in that was perfectly in harmony with what man must develop to fit into God's plans. When man rebelled against God's plans he rebelled against God, he broke the relationship, he depended upon his own reasoning and wisdom and thus broke the faith relationship with God, and then, in his diseased state he tried to save himself by efforts of his own.

God's plan is for us to accept that we can not save ourselves. That we must accept the provisions that God has made for us. When we are willing to do this then we have entered into a faith relationship with God that allows Him to live inside our minds. When God's mind and our minds are united we are naturally in harmony with His plans and His perceptions. When this unity is developed we will carry out God's plans for us for we are naturally in tune with Him and the flesh will not lead us into death and rebellion.


Re: James versus Paul. #7653
02/16/02 02:08 AM
02/16/02 02:08 AM
G
Garywk  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

Veteran Member
Joined: Jul 2023
Posts: 982
Colville, Wa
I'm curious.

How does a Holy Law, formulated by God Himself, make us prisoners of sin? Nowhere in the Bible do I see this taught.

Jesus came to save His people from their sins. So according to this philosophy Jesus came to save us from His own law. I find this to be rather strange indeed.


Re: James versus Paul. #7654
02/16/02 02:16 PM
02/16/02 02:16 PM
G
Garywk  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

Veteran Member
Joined: Jul 2023
Posts: 982
Colville, Wa
I have a couple of other things that I am really curious about here.

We know two things about the Law of God. 1. It is a transcript of the character of God, and 2. It is our schoolmaster that brings us to Christ.

Since the law is the transcript of God's character, and in being so becomes the antithesis of sin, please explain to me just how it is that sin makes me want to emulate God's character in my actions. This is not what my Bible tells me about sin.

And while we are at it, please also explain just how it is that something that is my schoolmaster bringing me to my recognition of my need of Jesus, who frees me from both the power and the guilt of sin, makes me a prisoner. Looks to me like the law actually helps to free me from sin. Without it I would not know I needed a Savior.

Again, I do not find this logic of the law making me the prisoner of sin taught anywhere in the Bible. Here is an analogy of this argument:

Every morning when I get up, totter into the bathroom and look into the mirror, I see a couple of things. 1. My hair looks like I've been sleeping all night and goes in all directions. 2. It also shows me that the oil from my skin has gotton onto my hair and I need to take a shower. 3. I see I need a shave. Since it is this mirror that shows me these things the mirror makes me a prisoner of messed up oily hair and stubble on my face in the mornings. Does anyone see the absurdity of this logic?

The logic found in the post above that has been commended as the correct balance between faith and works I find to be most contradictory and confusing indeed. I find it to be un-Biblical to tell the truth.


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