That's a nice expression, "empty cloud." If the theory had more merit to it, it could grow to the status of "cloud."

TE: I think what you really mean to say is that it would be out of harmony with the principles of His character, which are the principles espoused by the law, to forgive someone who was unrepentant.

MM: No. The law cannot pardon sinners; only God can. I this way, the law and God are unlike.

………………………….

TE: The devils weren't destroyed either, and there was no plan of salvation in place. No sinner has ever died the instant they sinned. This has never happened. It's odd to assert that God must do something He has never done.

MM: You are familiar with why Satan wasn’t destroyed the instant he sinned. Do you still agree with it?

………………………

MM: Before we are born again, all sins are considered cherished sins.

TE: That's stop here a second. Where do you get this from?

MM: Logic. Every sin a sinner commits is cherished. Otherwise, they wouldn’t do it. Only born again believers are empowered to resist sinning.

………………………..

TE: Adam is not lost. . . Adam proves my point, not yours. God is a God of forgiveness. He does not cast anyone aside for one sin, even at infinite cost to Himself.

MM: He was lost until he repented. If he had refused to repent he would have died lost. It takes only one sin to be lost.

……………………………

TE: If a born again person can't lose the Spirit of God without sinning, and can't sin without losing the Spirit of God, then no born again person can sin. But born again people have sinned, so this theory is false.

MM: They cannot sin until after they stop abiding in Jesus. Sinning is not what separates them. We are always free to stop abiding in Jesus. If we stop abiding in Jesus we lose the ability to choose not to sin.

……………………………..

TE: The "cannot sin" is present continuous. It means one cannot continue to sin, as several versions translate. It doesn't mean "commit a sin." John himself, earlier in the epistle, stated we are to go to Jesus Christ our advocate if we sin (he said, "if anyone sin") so he was certainly aware of the possibility of our sinning.

MM: Such translations imply that born again believers will continue to sin, that sinning is normal; nevertheless, they will not continue sinning once they realize they are sinning, that they will repent and stop sinning as soon they are aware of it.

But if we examine the broader context, it becomes obvious that’s not what John had in mind. The following is my verse by verse commentary.

3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

NOTE: John contrasts those who sin and those who do not sin. He doesn’t argue the difference is those who abide in Jesus will not continue sinning once they realize they are sinning.

3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

NOTE: John compares them to Jesus, not to people who continue sinning even after they realize they are sinning.

3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

NOTE: John says Jesus came to make us like Him, not less like the devil. People who sin are like the devil.

3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

NOTE: John explains that the reason they cannot sin while abiding in Jesus is because the seed of God remains in them. The seed of God is what makes it possible for them not to sin.

3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

NOTE: Again, John contrasts those who sin and those who do not sin. He does not argue the difference has to do with what one or the other does after they realize they are sinning.

5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

NOTE: Again, John explains that the reason they do not sin is because the devil cannot touch them while they are abiding in Jesus. He doesn’t say the devil cannot continue touching them after they realize they are sinning.

• “empty cloud” = no substance; or in other terms, a cloud that does not “deliver”.

The theoretical, legal concept of imputed righteousness is void of reality. Salvation is not a process of legislated righteousness, but rather the deliverance from legislated righteousness to the righteousness apart from the law.

The position that one can attain to righteousness much less perfection of character, by obeying rules (Ten Commandments) speaks of a real lack of experimental knowledge. This is not to say that anything is wrong with the law, but that it was never given for that purpose.

Have you ever tried to do this; to attain to righteousness by obeying the rules?

Does one attain to righteousness by “not killing”; not stealing; … not bowing down to idols; not using the Lord’s name in vain? Even if it were possible to not transgress in such a manner; is righteousness simply the absence of outward transgression? Even if one had never outwardly sinned, would that make him righteous?

What is righteousness?

Righteousness is made of such things of which there is no law or rules. What is that?

TE: I think what you really mean to say is that it would be out of harmony with the principles of His character, which are the principles espoused by the law, to forgive someone who was unrepentant.

MM: No. The law cannot pardon sinners; only God can. I this way, the law and God are unlike.

You chopped this out its context. I could go back and reestablish the context, but that should be your job! You're the one responding here. So if you wish for a comment, please provide more of the context here.
………………………….

TE: The devils weren't destroyed either, and there was no plan of salvation in place. No sinner has ever died the instant they sinned. This has never happened. It's odd to assert that God must do something He has never done.

MM: You are familiar with why Satan wasn’t destroyed the instant he sinned. Do you still agree with it?

My statement was made to show that your's was incorrect. Rather than admit your error, you've lopped my statement from it's context, and gone off on a tangent. Here's what I said:



You responded:



I pointed out that this statement is incorrect because the plan of salvation was not in place for the devils, and yet they didn't die. If the reason they didn't die was for any other reason other than the plan of salvation, then your statement is false (although I don't expect you to perceive this; nevertheless it is true)

………………………

MM: Before we are born again, all sins are considered cherished sins.

TE: That's stop here a second. Where do you get this from?

MM: Logic. Every sin a sinner commits is cherished. Otherwise, they wouldn’t do it.

Where do you get this from?

You've attempting to back up one statement that has no basis for being made with another. First of all, not every sin a sinner commits is cherished, not even close. I have doubts regarding your understanding of what "cherished sin" means, given that you would make such a statement. A cherished sin is something one knows to be wrong, yet knowing it to be wrong, chooses, in spite of this, to do it anyway. There's no way that more than a very small percentage of the sins unconverted people commit fall into this category. No way. Not even a decent percentage, let alone all. Think about it. What percentage of the sins unconverted people commit would fall into the category of something they know to be wrong, yet knowing it to be wrong, they choose to do anyway?

Only born again believers are empowered to resist sinning.

That's true in an absolute sense. That doesn't mean that an unbelieve can make a right choice, and choose good instead of evil in certain circumstances. Have you ever seen "It's a Wonderful Life?" If so, think of the choices the Jimmy Stewart character made, sacrificing himself for the good of others. These weren't sins. Nothing in inspiration teaches this.

………………………..

TE: Adam is not lost. . . Adam proves my point, not yours. God is a God of forgiveness. He does not cast anyone aside for one sin, even at infinite cost to Himself.

MM: He was lost until he repented. If he had refused to repent he would have died lost. It takes only one sin to be lost.

Here's what I wrote:



You never did consider Luther. Luther was a beer-loving anti-semite, sinning until the day he died, yet not lost. My statement, as written, is correct. It is not the occasional misdeed that determines the character. (i.e. cause you to be lost). If what you are asserting were true (that a single sin causes you to be lost) then Ellen White's statement could not be true.

……………………………

TE: If a born again person can't lose the Spirit of God without sinning, and can't sin without losing the Spirit of God, then no born again person can sin. But born again people have sinned, so this theory is false.

MM: They cannot sin until after they stop abiding in Jesus. Sinning is not what separates them. We are always free to stop abiding in Jesus. If we stop abiding in Jesus we lose the ability to choose not to sin.

This is an interesting statement. Sinning does not separate us from Jesus.

……………………………..

TE: The "cannot sin" is present continuous. It means one cannot continue to sin, as several versions translate. It doesn't mean "commit a sin." John himself, earlier in the epistle, stated we are to go to Jesus Christ our advocate if we sin (he said, "if anyone sin") so he was certainly aware of the possibility of our sinning.

MM: Such translations imply that born again believers will continue to sin, that sinning is normal; nevertheless, they will not continue sinning once they realize they are sinning, that they will repent and stop sinning as soon they are aware of it.

This is by no means true. Here's the NIV translation:



According to you, this translation implies that born again believers will continue to sin, yet the verse says exactly the opposite! You couldn't get any more wrong than this.

Very good!

MM: No. The law cannot pardon sinners; only God can. I this way, the law and God are unlike.

-Which we can read about in Pauls letter to Rome for instance.
………………………….

MM: Before we are born again, all sins are considered cherished sins.

TE: That's stop here a second. Where do you get this from?

MM: Logic. Every sin a sinner commits is cherished. Otherwise, they wouldn’t do it. Only born again believers are empowered to resist sinning.

-I am of the oppinion that at least as much sin is commited out of hate as is commited out of cherishing the sin. Such hate may very well include the sin itself but provides no power to resist it successfully. A cherished sin may transform over time and turn into a hated sin.
I also dont think it would be correct to say you cherish something you hate.
………………………..

TE: Adam is not lost. . . Adam proves my point, not yours. God is a God of forgiveness. He does not cast anyone aside for one sin, even at infinite cost to Himself.

MM: He was lost until he repented. If he had refused to repent he would have died lost. It takes only one sin to be lost.

-The only merit to this argument is that the opposite could be taken as an invitation to delay making things right with God.
……………………………

MM: Such translations imply that born again believers will continue to sin, that sinning is normal; nevertheless, they will not continue sinning once they realize they are sinning, that they will repent and stop sinning as soon they are aware of it.

But if we examine the broader context, it becomes obvious that’s not what John had in mind. The following is my verse by verse commentary.

-In my oppinion, broader context for Johns letter is the entire letter. And if you read all of it, it isnt quite as simple as when reading well choosen parts of it.

MM:
3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

NOTE: John contrasts those who sin and those who do not sin. He doesn’t argue the difference is those who abide in Jesus will not continue sinning once they realize they are sinning.

3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

NOTE: John compares them to Jesus, not to people who continue sinning even after they realize they are sinning.

3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

NOTE: John says Jesus came to make us like Him, not less like the devil. People who sin are like the devil.

3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

NOTE: John explains that the reason they cannot sin while abiding in Jesus is because the seed of God remains in them. The seed of God is what makes it possible for them not to sin.

3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

NOTE: Again, John contrasts those who sin and those who do not sin. He does not argue the difference has to do with what one or the other does after they realize they are sinning.

5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

NOTE: Again, John explains that the reason they do not sin is because the devil cannot touch them while they are abiding in Jesus. He doesn’t say the devil cannot continue touching them after they realize they are sinning.

TE: Adam is not lost. . . Adam proves my point, not yours. God is a God of forgiveness. He does not cast anyone aside for one sin, even at infinite cost to Himself.

MM: He was lost until he repented. If he had refused to repent he would have died lost. It takes only one sin to be lost.

-The only merit to this argument is that the opposite could be taken as an invitation to delay making things right with God.

You are suggesting that a person could say, "since I'm not lost by committing a single sin, I'll go ahead an committ this one sin" and use that an excuse? Well, this by itself would not cause harm, but repeating this argument again and again certainly would! (but then it wouldn't be a single sin).

The whole way of looking at things in terms of being lost because of committing a sin is wrong anyway. What causes one to be lost is to resist the Spirit of God who is constantly seeking to draw our attention to the love of God, especially as revealed at the cross. Committing a sin, or sins, is simply evidence of the condition of the heart. It's the other side of the coin that good works reveal the condition of the heart, but do not make us right with God.

TE: Adam is not lost. . . Adam proves my point, not yours. God is a God of forgiveness. He does not cast anyone aside for one sin, even at infinite cost to Himself.

MM: He was lost until he repented. If he had refused to repent he would have died lost. It takes only one sin to be lost.

-The only merit to this argument is that the opposite could be taken as an invitation to delay making things right with God.

You are suggesting that a person could say, "since I'm not lost by committing a single sin, I'll go ahead an committ this one sin" and use that an excuse? Well, this by itself would not cause harm, but repeating this argument again and again certainly would! (but then it wouldn't be a single sin).

The whole way of looking at things in terms of being lost because of committing a sin is wrong anyway. What causes one to be lost is to resist the Spirit of God who is constantly seeking to draw our attention to the love of God, especially as revealed at the cross. Committing a sin, or sins, is simply evidence of the condition of the heart. It's the other side of the coin that good works reveal the condition of the heart, but do not make us right with God.

-The tempter or his minions should be expected to be deceptive and try to sneak up on us when least expected, and use foul play doing so, as far as possible causing us to do all kinds of things. As we read that the law wich is good has been turned into a snare that kills us.

Thomas

This is true. What he's really trying to do is to get us to perceive God incorrectly. This is how he originally led men into sin, and how he continues to ensnare him. If our view of God is wrong, we can do everything "right" and be further away from Him then "common sinners." This is exactly what happened in Christ's time (and it continues to happen all the time).

John, our views on law and obedience and righteousness are vastly different. I see the law as a transcript of God's character. It defines and describes righteousness perfectly. It lacks nothing. To obey the law is to reproduce the character of God.

The law reveals to man his sins, but it provides no remedy. While it promises life to the obedient, it declares that death is the portion of the transgressor. The gospel of Christ alone can free him from the condemnation or the defilement of sin. He must exercise repentance toward God, whose law has been transgressed; and faith in Christ, his atoning sacrifice. Thus he obtains "remission of sins that are past" and becomes a partaker of the divine nature. He is a child of God, having received the spirit of adoption, whereby he cries: "Abba, Father!"

Is he now free to transgress God's law? Says Paul: "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law." "How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?" And John declares: "This is the love of God, that we keep His commandments: and His commandments are not grievous." Romans 3:31; 6:2; 1 John 5:3. In the new birth the heart is brought into harmony with God, as it is brought into accord with His law.

When this mighty change has taken place in the sinner, he has passed from death unto life, from sin unto holiness, from transgression and rebellion to obedience and loyalty. The old life of alienation from God has ended; the new life of reconciliation, of faith and love, has begun. Then "the righteousness of the law" will "be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Romans 8:4. And the language of the soul will be: "O how love I Thy law! it is my meditation all the day." Psalm 119:97.

"The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul." Psalm 19:7. Without the law, men have no just conception of the purity and holiness of God or of their own guilt and uncleanness. They have no true conviction of sin and feel no need of repentance. Not seeing their lost condition as violators of God's law, they do not realize their need of the atoning blood of Christ. The hope of salvation is accepted without a radical change of heart or reformation of life. Thus superficial conversions abound, and multitudes are joined to the church who have never been united to Christ.

True sanctification is a Bible doctrine. The apostle Paul, in his letter to the Thessalonian church, declares: "This is the will of God, even your sanctification." And he prays: "The very God of peace sanctify you wholly." 1 Thessalonians 4:3; 5:23. The Bible clearly teaches what sanctification is and how it is to be attained. The Saviour prayed for His disciples: "Sanctify them through Thy truth: Thy word is truth." John 17:17. And Paul teaches that believers are to be "sanctified by the Holy Ghost." Romans 15:16.

What is the work of the Holy Spirit? Jesus told His disciples: "When He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth." John 16:13. And the psalmist says: "Thy law is the truth." By the word and the Spirit of God are opened to men the great principles of righteousness embodied in His law. And since the law of God is "holy, and just, and good," a transcript of the divine perfection, it follows that a character formed by obedience to that law will be holy.

Christ is a perfect example of such a character. He says: "I have kept My Father's commandments." "I do always those things that please Him." John 15:10; 8:29. The followers of Christ are to become like Him - by the grace of God to form characters in harmony with the principles of His holy law. This is Bible sanctification.