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Re: The righteousness and majesty of the Mosaic Law [Re: Charity] #85741
02/24/07 10:50 PM
02/24/07 10:50 PM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
Mark,

There is a whole lot of context to that short sentence. I hope you consider the whole of it.

Remember prooftexting never did anyone any good.


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: The righteousness and majesty of the Mosaic Law [Re: vastergotland] #85747
02/25/07 07:42 AM
02/25/07 07:42 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
That quote summarizes my point. The law has no power to convert.


 Quote:
The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: (Ps. 19:7)


Just something which came to mind.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: The righteousness and majesty of the Mosaic Law [Re: Tom] #85749
02/25/07 03:08 PM
02/25/07 03:08 PM
Daryl  Offline

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23000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,118
Nova Scotia, Canada
Which goes to show, as Tom as provided, that the Bible says that the law has power to convert.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: The righteousness and majesty of the Mosaic Law [Re: Daryl] #85752
02/25/07 04:03 PM
02/25/07 04:03 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Active Member 2019

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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
MS: The law has no power to convert. But it does have power to convict.

DF: Which goes to show, as Tom as provided, that the Bible says that the law has power to convert.

MM: The power that causes a “radical change” within us is the Holy Spirit – NOT THE LAW. The law, by itself, is powerless. The law is one of many tools the Holy Spirit uses to inspire us to pursue conversion and salvation through Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour. When “the Spirit of God reveals to him the full meaning of the law, what a change takes place in his heart!” (RC 64) We “cannot possibly keep the commandments of God without the regenerating grace of Christ. Jesus alone can cleanse us from all sin.” (FW 95)

OHC 141
The law without faith in the gospel of Christ cannot save the transgressor of law. The gospel without the law is inefficient and powerless. The law and the gospel are a perfect whole. . . . The two blended--the gospel of Christ and the law of God--produce the love and faith unfeigned. {OHC 141.4}

6BC 1070
There are no saving properties in the law. It cannot pardon the transgressor. The penalty must be exacted. . . . The punishment has been endured by the sinner's substitute. . . . In the councils of heaven, before the world was created, the Father and the Son covenanted together that if man proved disloyal to God, Christ, one with the Father, would take the place of the transgressor, and suffer the penalty of justice that must fall upon him (MS 145, 1897). {6BC 1070.4}

GC 468
"The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul." Psalm 19:7. Without the law, men have no just conception of the purity and holiness of God or of their own guilt and uncleanness. They have no true conviction of sin and feel no need of repentance. Not seeing their lost condition as violators of God's law, they do not realize their need of the atoning blood of Christ. The hope of salvation is accepted without a radical change of heart or reformation of life. Thus superficial conversions abound, and multitudes are joined to the church who have never been united to Christ. {GC 468.2}

Re: The righteousness and majesty of the Mosaic Law [Re: Mountain Man] #85756
02/25/07 04:37 PM
02/25/07 04:37 PM
Daryl  Offline

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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,118
Nova Scotia, Canada
It's the last quote that MM provided that brings out the converting the soul aspect of Psalm 19:7

 Originally Posted By: Mountain Man

"The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul." Psalm 19:7. Without the law, men have no just conception of the purity and holiness of God or of their own guilt and uncleanness. They have no true conviction of sin and feel no need of repentance. Not seeing their lost condition as violators of God's law, they do not realize their need of the atoning blood of Christ. The hope of salvation is accepted without a radical change of heart or reformation of life. Thus superficial conversions abound, and multitudes are joined to the church who have never been united to Christ. {GC 468.2}

It says that without the law "they have no true conviction of sin and feel no need of repentance." This is what I see as the converting power of the law. Of course, it is the Holy Spirit who convicts as a result of what The Father did in sending His Son, and what the Son did by dying for us.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: The righteousness and majesty of the Mosaic Law [Re: Daryl] #85773
02/25/07 10:24 PM
02/25/07 10:24 PM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy victory? O death, where is thy sting?
1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the power of sin is the law:
1Co 15:57 but thanks be to God, who giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: The righteousness and majesty of the Mosaic Law [Re: vastergotland] #85781
02/26/07 02:05 AM
02/26/07 02:05 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
The law is a metaphor, isn't it, for that which is right? That is, when people are converted, they aren't literally converted by the literal law. I know when I was converted, I didn't even know what the Ten Commandments were. The elements of conversion are brought out here:

 Quote:
How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8. (DA 175, 176)


The Holy Spirit convicts us of sin (that's what "the law" is talking about, right?), while it is the love of God revealed from the cross which draws us to Himself, and motivates us to be united to Him.

"Conversion" really has to do with seeing things from a new perspective. We used to look at things one way, but now we look at them another way; we've been converted.

The love of Christ is what, more than any other thing, changes us.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: The righteousness and majesty of the Mosaic Law [Re: Tom] #85793
02/26/07 04:06 PM
02/26/07 04:06 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
TE: I know when I was converted, I didn't even know what the Ten Commandments were. The elements of conversion are brought out here:

EGW: How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29.

The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour.

Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself.

Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8.

MM: Tom, I do not understand, in light of the quote you posted, how you can say - "I know when I was converted, I didn't even know what the Ten Commandments were." Sister White wrote that the Holy Spirit writes the law of God in the mind and heart of those who have been saved. Your experience does not coincide with this description.

Paul confessed, "For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." He is saying that he was dead in sin before he understood the law of God. Paul id not experience true, genuine conversion and rebirth until after he understood the law of God.

In light of what Paul and Sister White wrote about the law of God and conversion and rebirth I do not understand how you can say you experienced conversion without knowledge of the law of God. How come Paul was unable to experience conversion without a saving knowledge of the law of God and you were?

Romans
7:7 What shall we say then? [is] the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin [was] dead.
7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
7:10 And the commandment, which [was ordained] to life, I found [to be] unto death.
7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew [me].

Re: The righteousness and majesty of the Mosaic Law [Re: Mountain Man] #85796
02/26/07 05:50 PM
02/26/07 05:50 PM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
 Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
MM: Paul confessed, "For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." He is saying that he was dead in sin before he understood the law of God. Paul id not experience true, genuine conversion and rebirth until after he understood the law of God.
How differently two people can read the same passage. I understand Paul to be saying that "he died in sin as he understood the law of God."
 Quote:

Romans
7:7 What shall we say then? [is] the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin [was] dead.
7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
7:10 And the commandment, which [was ordained] to life, I found [to be] unto death.
7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew [me].

O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if [it be] yet in vain.
He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, [doeth he it] by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree:
That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

For if the inheritance [be] of the law, [it is] no more of promise: but God gave [it] to Abraham by promise.
Wherefore then [serveth] the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; [and it was] ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
Now a mediator is not [a mediator] of one, but God is one.
[Is] the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: The righteousness and majesty of the Mosaic Law [Re: vastergotland] #85798
02/26/07 06:21 PM
02/26/07 06:21 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
Paul confessed, "For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." He is saying that he was dead in sin before he understood the law of God.


Paul says "when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." You write Paul says he was dead in sin before he understood the law of God. These seem like opposites.

As to my experience being different than Paul's, Paul was raised a Jew, and had an acquaintance of the law from birth. I wasn't. I was presented the Gospel by a girl I had met at school. She presented the Christ had died for me on the cross, that He would be my Savior if I asked Him to. The Holy Spirit bore witness of this truth. I realized I needed to make a decision, and, thankfully, I chose to respond to the Holy Spirit's appeal. I accepted Christ as my personal savior. From that point on my whole life changed. I had an interest in Scripture, and in telling others about Christ.

My experience is by no means unique, MM. Your comments make me curious as if you understand what conversion is really about. It's not about sinful habits. It's about Christ.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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