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Re: What if Jesus had failed? [Re: Tom] #87890
04/15/07 11:04 AM
04/15/07 11:04 AM
Daryl  Offline

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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,118
Nova Scotia, Canada
Any EGW and/or Bible quotes relative to the discussion, those I have already posted, and those not yet posted.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
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Re: What if Jesus had failed? [Re: Daryl] #87901
04/15/07 03:35 PM
04/15/07 03:35 PM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
So you didn't have any particular quotes in mind. You're just making the observation that besides the quotes that have been posted we should keep in mind any other quotes in mind which bear on the subject.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: What if Jesus had failed? [Re: Tom] #87909
04/15/07 09:52 PM
04/15/07 09:52 PM
Daryl  Offline

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What I am saying is that we shouldn't focus only on the quotes that seemingly backs up what we tend to believe to the neglect or ignoring of other quotes that would bring any type of conflict on that belief.

What is being discussed here is a good example in which a person clings onto the "risk of failure" aspect to the neglect that it was seen that Christ wouldn't fail.

Here is the "risk of failure" EGW quote:

 Quote:

Satan in heaven had hated Christ for His position in the courts of God. He hated Him the more when he himself was dethroned. He hated Him who pledged Himself to redeem a race of sinners. Yet into the world where Satan claimed dominion God permitted His Son to come, a helpless babe, subject to the weakness of humanity. He permitted Him to meet life's peril in common with every human soul, to fight the battle as every child of humanity must fight it, at the risk of failure and eternal loss. {DA 49.1}


Here is a no risk of failure Bible quote:

 Quote:

Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

The Bible quote says that He shall...... It doesn't say He shall, if He is faithful.......

How does the risk in the EGW quote line up with the certainty in the Bible quote?

Now, as MM has said, if you can locate a Bible quote that implies the risk of failure factor, as you say exists in the EGW quote, then you will have my attention.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
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Re: What if Jesus had failed? [Re: Daryl] #87911
04/16/07 12:46 AM
04/16/07 12:46 AM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
I was a Calvinist before I was an Adventist. I'm very familiar with these Calvinistic arguments. I'm also familiar with Adventist history. I came to be convinced by the quotes I've been sharing *against* what had been my previous viewpoint, which was similar to yours (but even more deterministic).

Regarding Scripture which supports Ellen White's position, she wrote:

 Quote:
He took upon Himself human nature, and was tempted in all points as human nature is tempted. He could have sinned; He could have fallen ...


so she evidently had Hebrews 4:15 in mind. That is, Hebrews 4:15 supports her position.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: What if Jesus had failed? [Re: Tom] #87913
04/16/07 01:22 AM
04/16/07 01:22 AM
Daryl  Offline

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Posts: 25,118
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In that case, a proper online forum study would be to look for all the Bible and EGW quotes on the subject of could Jesus have sinned, could Jesus have failed versus all the Bible and EGW quotes in relation to the foreknowledge of God in whether or not God saw that Jesus would not sin and would not fail.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
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Re: What if Jesus had failed? [Re: Daryl] #87914
04/16/07 01:27 AM
04/16/07 01:27 AM
Daryl  Offline

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Nova Scotia, Canada
My belief is that Jesus could have sinned and could have failed, but that God saw that Jesus would not sin and would not fail.

A couple of thoughts/questions that struck me, which I am now posting before I forget them:

1 - Would the Father have sent the Son, if He foresaw that the Son would fail?

2 - Also, if the Father knew the Son so intimately, re His character and such, wouldn't the Father have known that, in spite of the risk and the possibility of failure, that the Son would not fail?


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
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Re: What if Jesus had failed? [Re: Daryl] #87916
04/16/07 02:07 AM
04/16/07 02:07 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
1 - Would the Father have sent the Son, if He foresaw that the Son would fail?

God foresaw that Christ *could* fall, and, incredibly He sent Him anyway! This the wonder of redeeming love!

If you're familiar with Early Writings, there's a seen there where Christ had to go in three times to convince the Father to send Him. The reason for God's reluctance is not that He loves us any less than Christ, but because He was aware of the risk.

The risk involved should call for the greatest response of wonder and praise from our lips. If you look at the statements from The Desire of Ages, both on page 49 and again on page 131, you will see that this is exactly what Ellen White says.


2 - Also, if the Father knew the Son so intimately, re His character and such, wouldn't the Father have known that, in spite of the risk and the possibility of failure, that the Son would not fail?

God had faith in His Son, based on His knowledge of His character. But God knew of the possibility of Christ's failure, as related to us by Ellen White, who describes it as "a more fearful risk" in the DA passage you cited.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: What if Jesus had failed? [Re: Tom] #87918
04/16/07 02:15 AM
04/16/07 02:15 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
In that case, a proper online forum study would be to look for all the Bible and EGW quotes on the subject of could Jesus have sinned, could Jesus have failed versus all the Bible and EGW quotes in relation to the foreknowledge of God in whether or not God saw that Jesus would not sin and would not fail.


The best known Scripture passage which relates to the possibility of Jesus Christ failing is Hebrews 4:15. The possibility of Christ's sinning has been argued in Christianity for a long time. The traditional SDA position has been that He could, as EGW's statements (such as "Christ could have sinned. He could have fallen ...) make clear.

Those who hold to the prelapsarian position (i.e., that Christ took the unfallen nature of Adam) argue that Christ could not have sinned. You can research the different arguments on the internet by googling something like "could Christ have sinned." Or you could google "the impeccability of Christ".

Once we establish the fact that it was possible for Christ to have sinned, it's clear that God could not have foreknown with 100% certainty that Christ would succeed, because that would be a logical contradiction. This is also born out by the Ellen White statements that:

a)God sent His Son at the risk of failure and eternal loss (a "more fearful risk," she writes, then earthly parents take when their children are born).
b)Heaven itself was imperiled for our redemption.

The statements from Scripture and Ellen White are in perfect agreement on this subject. What confuses us are preconceived ideas we have on the subject.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: What if Jesus had failed? [Re: Tom] #87919
04/16/07 02:56 AM
04/16/07 02:56 AM
Daryl  Offline

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23000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,118
Nova Scotia, Canada
 Originally Posted By: Tom Ewall

If you're familiar with Early Writings, there's a seen there where Christ had to go in three times to convince the Father to send Him. The reason for God's reluctance is not that He loves us any less than Christ, but because He was aware of the risk.

In response to this, I searched for the EGW quote to which you were referring, and came up with the following:

 Quote:

Sorrow filled heaven, as it was realized that man was lost, and that world which God had created was to be filled with mortals doomed to misery, sickness, and death, and there was no way of escape for the offender. The whole family of Adam must die. I saw the lovely Jesus and beheld an expression of sympathy and sorrow upon His countenance. Soon I saw Him approach the exceeding bright light which enshrouded the Father. Said my accompanying angel, He is in close converse with His Father. The anxiety of the angels seemed to be intense while Jesus was communing with His Father. Three times He was shut in by the glorious light about the Father, and the third time He came from the Father, His person could be seen. His countenance was calm, free from all perplexity and doubt, and shone with benevolence and loveliness, such as words cannot express. He then made known to the angelic host that a way of escape had been made for lost man. He told them that He had been pleading with His Father, and had offered to give His life a ransom, to take the sentence of death upon Himself, that through Him man might find pardon; that through the merits of His blood, and obedience to the law of God, they could have the favor of God, and be brought into the beautiful garden, and eat of the fruit of the tree of life. {EW 149.2}

At first the angels could not rejoice; for their Commander concealed nothing from them, but opened before them the plan of salvation. Jesus told them that He would stand between the wrath of His Father and guilty man, that He would bear iniquity and scorn, and but few would receive Him as the Son of God. Nearly all would hate and reject Him. He would leave all His glory in heaven, appear upon earth as a man, humble Himself as a man, become acquainted by His own experience with the various temptations with which man would be beset, that He might know how to succor those who should be tempted; and that finally, after His mission as a teacher would be accomplished, He would be delivered into the hands of men, and endure almost every cruelty and suffering that Satan and his angels could inspire wicked men to inflict; that He would die the cruelest of deaths, hung up between the heavens and the earth as a guilty sinner; that He would suffer dreadful hours of agony, which even angels could not look upon, but would veil their faces from the sight. Not merely agony of body would He suffer, but mental agony, that with which bodily suffering could in no wise be compared. The weight of the sins of the whole world would be upon Him. He told them He would die and rise again the third day, and would ascend to His Father to intercede for wayward, guilty man. {EW 149.3}

Do you see any hint of risk in the above EGW quote? It says that Christ held nothing back from the angels. If there were the type of risk of failure that you are referring to, then wouldn't Christ have held something back? This is one of the reasons why we need to look at the whole picture, rather than at a few pieces of the whole picture.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
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Re: What if Jesus had failed? [Re: Daryl] #87920
04/16/07 02:59 AM
04/16/07 02:59 AM
Daryl  Offline

Site Administrator
23000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,118
Nova Scotia, Canada
By the way, another thought hit me.

If the Father feared of such a risk of failure, then why did God translate Enoch, Elijah, and resurrect Moses? This kind of goes along with the "what if Jesus had failed" aspect of this topic.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
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