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Re: What if Jesus had failed? [Re: crater] #87945
04/16/07 09:46 PM
04/16/07 09:46 PM
Darius  Offline
Dedicated Member
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
There was only one occasion on which Abraham had an only son. What was the boy's name?


Darius A. Lecointe, J.D., Ph.D.
No weapon formed against me shall prosper.
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Re: What if Jesus had failed? [Re: Darius] #87947
04/16/07 11:17 PM
04/16/07 11:17 PM
C
crater  Offline
Veteran Member
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 989
United States
 Originally Posted By: Darius
There was only one occasion on which Abraham had an only son. What was the boy's name?


Why don't you explain it to us simple folk.

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Re: What if Jesus had failed? [Re: crater] #87949
04/17/07 12:12 AM
04/17/07 12:12 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
After his first born son, Abraham had an only son, until his second son was born.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: What if Jesus had failed? [Re: Tom] #87950
04/17/07 12:22 AM
04/17/07 12:22 AM
Daryl  Offline

Site Administrator
23000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,118
Nova Scotia, Canada
Let the Scriptures answer what Darius posted here.

 Quote:

Gen. 22:1 And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.
2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

There it is clearly stated that Isaac was Abraham's only son, which settles it for me.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
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Re: What if Jesus had failed? [Re: Daryl] #87951
04/17/07 12:29 AM
04/17/07 12:29 AM
Daryl  Offline

Site Administrator
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,118
Nova Scotia, Canada
Adam Clarke's Bible Commentary makes an interesting comment on the only son part by saying "All that he had by Sarah his legal wife."

In relation to this the SDA Bible Commentary says that in calling Isaac, Abraham’s “only son,” God implied that he alone was considered a legitimate heir to the promise. This contrasts with the expression of ch. 21:12, 13, where God calls Ishmael “the son of the bondwoman.”


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
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Re: What if Jesus had failed? [Re: Rosangela] #87952
04/17/07 12:32 AM
04/17/07 12:32 AM
Daryl  Offline

Site Administrator
23000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,118
Nova Scotia, Canada
 Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Again, making a decision and implementing it are two different things.

Hadn't Christ already decided to die for man? Why then the struggle in Gethsemane?

About the "few hours of mental anguish", I would say that the great question involved was the separation between the members of the Godhead, which occurred for the first and only time in all eternity.


Excellent question, Rosangela!


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
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Re: What if Jesus had failed? [Re: Daryl] #87955
04/17/07 12:49 AM
04/17/07 12:49 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Daryl, it appears to me that this is a question *I* should be asking. I'm not understanding your enthusiasm here.

If the future is not set in stone, not like a T.V. rerun, then it makes sense that there would be real decisions for Christ to make, real struggles, and the existence of risk. However, if the future is set in stone, as you are suggesting, then there couldn't be a real struggle involving whether or not Christ would go through with His decision. How could there be? Christ would have simply done at that moment what He had known from all eternity He would do. It could be something difficult to do, like it's hard for us to take a bad-tasting medicine, but the issue of our salvation could not be in doubt.

 Quote:
The awful moment had come--that moment which was to decide the destiny of the world. The fate of humanity trembled in the balance. (DA 692)


Under the scenario you are suggesting, Daryl, how could it possible be said that the fate of humanity trembled in the balance? Something which "trembles in the balance" is something which uncertain, something to which doubt pertains, not something certain.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: What if Jesus had failed? [Re: Tom] #87964
04/17/07 01:00 PM
04/17/07 01:00 PM
Daryl  Offline

Site Administrator
23000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,118
Nova Scotia, Canada
If anybody knew the prophecies, Christ certainly did. Christ knew all the prophecies in the Scriptures pertaining to Himself in relation to His first coming. Christ also knew of the prophecies in relation to His second coming. I believe that, in His humanity, Christ completely trusted in the prophecies concerning Himself, and I do not see any hint of failure in any of those prophecies concerning Himself.

Even though Christ had complete trust in the prophecies concerning Himself, He struggled in Gethsemane in the same way we would struggle when being faced with such suffering and fate. Christ took upon Himself our struggle. Both in Gethsemane and Calvary, Christ took upon Himself what should have been our suffering and fate.

Of course, Christ could have decided not to go through with it, of course, Christ could have chosen to return to heaven, but what a cost it would have been not only for humanity, but for all His creation. If there was any risk, if there was any imperilment to heaven itself, it would have been only if Christ had decided not to go through with it.

Knowing what He would do and doing it were two different things, even for Christ in His humanity, thus the struggle aspect, however, as Christ knew the character of Peter to the point that He knew that Peter would deny Him three times, so I believe He knew His own character in that He wouldn't fail or choose otherwise, as Peter did.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
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Re: What if Jesus had failed? [Re: Daryl] #87967
04/17/07 01:24 PM
04/17/07 01:24 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
If there was any risk, if there was any imperilment to heaven itself, it would have been only if Christ had decided not to go through with it.


What if Christ had sinned? The "risk of failure and eternal loss" has to do with sin, doesn't it? How could Christ have been eternally lost without sinning?

Christ's faith was not in Himself, but in God. What He knew about Him own character wasn't important at all.

The logical problem I was pointing out, relating to the "struggle," is that if God knew from all eternity that Christ would succeed in Gethsemane (something Christ, being God, would also have known), there was no real chance that Christ would do anything different than what He did (which Christ would also have known). So, from a logical standpoint, there could have been no struggle as to whether Christ would actually do the thing or not, there would only have been a struggle in terms of doing something unpleasant that you'd rather not do.

However, the Spirit of Prophecy writes that, "the fate of humanity was in the balance." The viewpoint of the future you are suggesting does not allow for this. If the future is set in stone, humanity was in no danger whatsoever. It not only wasn't trembling in the balance, it wasn't trembling at all.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: What if Jesus had failed? [Re: Daryl] #87968
04/17/07 01:27 PM
04/17/07 01:27 PM
Darius  Offline
Dedicated Member
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
I wish you guys continued fruitful discussions. Fare thee well.


Darius A. Lecointe, J.D., Ph.D.
No weapon formed against me shall prosper.
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