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Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"? [Re: vastergotland] #94259
01/04/08 09:07 PM
01/04/08 09:07 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
I am trying to limit myself. Seems you are on me for it like a piece of old duct tape. :p


Actually, I just let it go by the first couple of times, but it was bothering me, so I thought I'd let you know.

In person, it's not so bad, since you can hear a person's tone of voice, but on-line it's not so pleasant.

Thanks!


 Quote:
Your quote suggested that Jesus did not use a whip to drive out the peddlers. Your second quote here below along with your comment on it suggests that Jesus only used the whip for the cattle. I would never have got any of those ideas from Johns account.


Probably from not being familiar with the actual situation. Many people conceive of the area involved as being a small area, so they picture in their minds that there was Jesus and the money changers in close proximity. But the actual area involved was huge!

Imagine a football stadium, with the football field covered with people, with money changers throughout the stadium. Imagine Jesus on the 50 yard line, flipping over a table with a cord in His hand. Why would someone hundreds of feet away flee in fear? EGW's account makes sense.

Also, in John's account, he notes that not everyone fled. Immediately after cleansing the temple, Christ ministered to the sick and to children. So not everyone was afraid. This also agrees with the idea that it wasn't physical coercion that was going on.

 Quote:
Yes, I think that is a safe bet. It all depends on wether you want to see the 144000 as some group in the very last hours of earths history who manage to achieve something that noone else in the history of our planet (including Jesus) have managed to do, or if you choose to view them as the invisible church through the ages, first the church militant in facing the battles of this controversy and later the church triumphant having seen the last enemy conquered and bowed before Jesus.


I've heard this idea before. For example, James Raferty, who works with Ty Gibson, has this idea (I don't know if Ty does). I haven't heard it fleshed out though.

 Quote:
They or we? Are we tainted with sin and does the question apply to you and me?


They, unless we are a part of the 144,000. Again, this is from EGW's view.

 Quote:
You could for instance have made comments that showed you understood what the point made was, or have said wether you had read the book or not. If you have read the book and maybe even have a copy within reach, you would have saved me lots of typing.


I went to the seminary, and have read quite a lot of books, perhaps that one (it's been some time now, and I honestly don't remember) and am very familiar with the concepts involved. However, I moved and can't find many of my books. I really appreciate your doing all that typing.

Even though I don't agree with the penal substitution idea, there were some real good observations made. For example, the dualistic idea regarding God is very good, as it gets into the fact that the Eastern conception of things is different than the Western idea. I was trying to get at this point in regards to justice.

The Western idea is that justice is retributive, and one thinks of vengeance, just desserts, debt repayment, and things like that. The Biblical idea is that justice is restorative and redemptive. Justice is feeding the hungry, caring for the widow and orphan, feeding the naked, and is manifest by acts of mercy and kindness.

For example:

 Quote:
“Thus says the LORD of hosts:

‘ Execute true justice,
Show mercy and compassion
Everyone to his brother.

(Zech 7:9)


 Quote:
So now you write that the holy angels knew God well and knew all about His love and character. Having said that, what did they learn from the cross?


Read the chapter "It Is Finished" from "The Desire of Ages" (which is on line, if you don't have the book. You can google "EGW wais" and get it quickly.

 Quote:
But we must maily relate to the controversy from the God-human relationship point of view, if for no other reason that we know next to nothing about any other points of view that exist.


The issue is bigger than just us, though, and an understanding of that helps to correctly understand things. This idea is in Scripture. For example, from Col. 1.:

 Quote:
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.


The things in heaven are not inanimate things, but heavenly beings. How can heavenly beings be reconciled? This is dealing with a finer appreciation of God's character and love, given though the cross. Paul's thought looks to be that the cross brought even heavenly angels closer to God.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"? [Re: Mountain Man] #94328
01/07/08 12:14 AM
01/07/08 12:14 AM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
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 Quote:
MM: Tom, if what you're saying is true, that God gives Satan permission to destroy sinners according to His will, aren't you in essence saying Satan does the very thing that is calculated to motivate people to love and obey God?

TE: This is another FOTAP question. I never said, "God gives Satan permission to destroy sinners according to His will".

MM: I assumed you agreed with Sister White. You often say, “I believe it is wise to apply the principle so well laid out by EGW.” Again, here is what she wrote about the will of God as it relates to God destroying sinners:

3SG 80
God controls all these elements; they are his instruments to do his will; he calls them into action to serve his purpose. These fiery issues have been, and will be his agents to blot out from the earth very wicked cities. Like Korah, Dathan and Abiram they go down alive into the pit. These are evidences of God's power.

 Quote:
MM: Tom, is it wise or right to assume everything God says He did literally means He either allowed sin or nature or Satan to do it?

TE: So, assuming by "everything" you mean the violent things God is portrayed as doing, I believe it is wise to apply the principle so well laid out by EGW in the first chapter of "The Great Controversy" to these episodes.

MM: Thank you for answering my question, Tom. From this, I understand you believe God has never directly killed a sinner. It is true, at least in the following case, that Jesus did not kill the man Himself. Instead, He commanded Moses and the congregation to do it. But I suspect this isn’t what you had in mind.

Numbers
15:35 And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
15:36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.

Tom, does this situation symbolize God giving sin or Satan or nature permission to kill sinners? I'm having a hard time understanding how stories like this one fit into the model you advocate.

 Quote:
TE: No, it's akin to calling evil evil. Violence is evil. God permits evil to happen, but He does not perform evil.

MM: Is the following case an example of evil violence or justice?

 Quote:
Acts
5:1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
5:2 And kept back [part] of the price, his wife also being privy [to it], and brought a certain part, and laid [it], at the apostles' feet.
5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back [part] of the price of the land?
5:4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
5:5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
5:6 And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried [him] out, and buried [him].
5:7 And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.
5:8 And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.
5:9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband [are] at the door, and shall carry thee out.
5:10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying [her] forth, buried [her] by her husband.
5:11 And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.
5:12 And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch.

Also, are we to assume that “by the hands of the apostles” means Ananias and Sapphira were killed by the apostles? If not, who or what killed them? And why? To what purpose were they killed? BTW, it doesn't say God took away the ghost; instead, it says they "gave up the ghost".

AA 74
Infinite Wisdom saw that this signal manifestation of the wrath of God was necessary to guard the young church from becoming demoralized. Their numbers were rapidly increasing. The church would have been endangered if, in the rapid increase of converts, men and women had been added who, while professing to serve God, were worshiping mammon. This judgment testified that men cannot deceive God, that He detects the hidden sin of the heart, and that He will not be mocked. It was designed as a warning to the church, to lead them to avoid pretense and hypocrisy, and to beware of robbing God. {AA 73.4}

Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"? [Re: Mountain Man] #94331
01/07/08 01:09 AM
01/07/08 01:09 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
MM: I assumed you agreed with Sister White. You often say, “I believe it is wise to apply the principle so well laid out by EGW.” Again, here is what she wrote about the will of God as it relates to God destroying sinners:

3SG 80
God controls all these elements; they are his instruments to do his will; he calls them into action to serve his purpose. These fiery issues have been, and will be his agents to blot out from the earth very wicked cities. Like Korah, Dathan and Abiram they go down alive into the pit. These are evidences of God's power.


One needs to consider all she wrote on a subject. For example, she wrote:

 Quote:
We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty.(GC 36)


Or, a much short one, "All that man needs to know, or can know, of God was revealed in the life and character of His Son."

We should be able to find, assuming this is true, our ideas regarding God revealed in the life and character of His Son, while here with us in the flesh.

 Quote:
It is true, at least in the following case, that Jesus did not kill the man Himself. Instead, He commanded Moses and the congregation to do it. But I suspect this isn’t what you had in mind.


"Jesus" was a human being, who did not exist until His incarnation. It was not "Jesus" who commanded Moses, but Yahweh. The purpose of Jesus was to explain Yahweh to man, as John points out:

 Quote:
No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,who is at the Father's side, has made him known. (John 1:18)


Paul point out the same thing (Heb. 1:1-3) and Ellen White (already quoted, plus DA 22, and many other places).

It's really a wrong technique you are applying in going to the Old Testament to understand what Jesus Christ was teaching in the New! This CANNOT HELP but lead to confusion. Even holy angels were confused, as DA 758 points out. MM is not going to avoid being confused by that which was unclear to angels.

OTOH, MM can be illuminated by Jesus Christ, as the holy angels were.

Ananias and Sophira were another example of the principle laid out in GC 35-37.

I didn't understand you point that is doesn't say God took away the ghost but they gave up the ghost.



 Quote:
Numbers
15:35 And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
15:36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.

Tom, does this situation symbolize God giving sin or Satan or nature permission to kill sinners? I'm having a hard time understanding how stories like this one fit into the model you advocate.


This is more difficult, as I explained to Arnold, I'll pass on discussing this.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"? [Re: Tom] #94345
01/07/08 04:23 PM
01/07/08 04:23 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
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TE: Or, a much short one, "All that man needs to know, or can know, of God was revealed in the life and character of His Son." We should be able to find, assuming this is true, our ideas regarding God revealed in the life and character of His Son, while here with us in the flesh.

MM: Did Jesus, while here in the flesh, command people to kill sinners?

Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"? [Re: Mountain Man] #94349
01/07/08 05:13 PM
01/07/08 05:13 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Oh dear. I answered this and I don't see it.

Oh well.

I guess second time around you'll get a much shorter answer! I would say that if we see God doing something in the Old Testament which is different, in principle, to what we see Jesus Christ doing in the Gospels, then we're missing something.

The starting point should be Christ in the Gospels. From that we learn what God is like. *Then* we can go to the Old, and try to determine how the different episodes in the Old correspond to what Jesus did in the Gospels.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"? [Re: Tom] #94360
01/08/08 01:24 AM
01/08/08 01:24 AM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
1. Jesus commanded people in the OT to kill people. See Numbers 15:35.

2. Jesus commanded people in the NT to kill people. See John 8:7.

PS - It was Jesus Christ who commanded the Jews in the OT.

1 Corinthians
10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"? [Re: Mountain Man] #94364
01/08/08 02:16 AM
01/08/08 02:16 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.

At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"

"No one, sir," she said.
"Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."


You read this as a command by Jesus Christ to kill people?

OK. Given this is how you interpret Scripture, there may not be much point in continuing this discussion. (Most people see this as a wonderful example of forgiveness, yet you view it as a command to kill.)


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"? [Re: Tom] #94371
01/08/08 04:41 PM
01/08/08 04:41 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
What did Jesus mean when He said, "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her."

What did Jesus mean when He said, "The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp."

Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"? [Re: Mountain Man] #94372
01/08/08 04:48 PM
01/08/08 04:48 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
DA 460, 461
Their pretended reverence veiled a deep-laid plot for His ruin. They had seized upon this opportunity to secure His condemnation, thinking that whatever decision He might make, they would find occasion to accuse Him. Should He acquit the woman, He might be charged with despising the law of Moses. Should He declare her worthy of death, He could be accused to the Romans as one who was assuming authority that belonged only to them. ... {DA 460}

With all their professions of reverence for the law, these rabbis, in bringing the charge against the woman, were disregarding its provisions. It was the husband's duty to take action against her, and the guilty parties were to be punished equally. The action of the accusers was wholly unauthorized. Jesus, however, met them on their own ground. The law specified that in punishment by stoning, the witnesses in the case should be the first to cast a stone. Now rising, and fixing His eyes upon the plotting elders, Jesus said, "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her." And stooping down, He continued writing on the ground. He had not set aside the law given through Moses, nor infringed upon the authority of Rome. {DA 461}

Re: What does it mean - The wrath and vengeance of "an offfended God"? [Re: Mountain Man] #94375
01/08/08 06:12 PM
01/08/08 06:12 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
In His act of pardoning this woman and encouraging her to live a better life, the character of Jesus shines forth in the beauty of perfect righteousness. While He does not palliate sin, nor lessen the sense of guilt, He seeks not to condemn, but to save. The world had for this erring woman only contempt and scorn; but Jesus speaks words of comfort and hope. The Sinless One pities the weakness of the sinner, and reaches to her a helping hand. While the hypocritical Pharisees denounce, Jesus bids her, "Go, and sin no more."

It is not Christ's follower that, with averted eyes, turns from the erring, leaving them unhindered to pursue their downward course. Those who are forward in accusing others, and zealous in bringing them to justice, are often in their own lives more guilty than they. Men hate the sinner, while they love the sin. Christ hates the sin, but loves the sinner. This will be the spirit of all who follow Him. Christian love is slow to censure, quick to discern penitence, ready to forgive, to encourage, to set the wanderer in the path of holiness, and to stay his feet therein. (DA 462)


Ok, how do you get out of this a command to kill?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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