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Re: To whom or what did Jesus "pay the price" for our redemption? [Re: Darius] #94660
01/15/08 03:41 PM
01/15/08 03:41 PM
Johann  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2014

Retired Pastor
3000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
Iceland
 Originally Posted By: Darius
How do we know that Satan is still alive? Where is the evidence? There is so much unwarranted speculation?

Darius


May I suggest you read Rev. 20 where it states clearly that the devil is finally placed in the lake of fire after the millennium. Does that make sense?


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: To whom or what did Jesus "pay the price" for our redemption? [Re: Tom] #94662
01/15/08 04:03 PM
01/15/08 04:03 PM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
 Originally Posted By: Tom Ewall
 Quote:
God's physical presence doesn't need to be everywhere. God is not physically present on this earth, and Satan would live comfortably here for ever. In fact, this was exactly his plan.


God does something artificial, one could say, to allow Satan to continue to live. If God had left Satan to reap the full consequences of his sin, he would have died long ago.
Does God do something more to keep satan alive than He does to keep anyone else alive? That including unfallen angels..
 Quote:

Back to the question of human beings being burned alive by fire as punishment for their sins, how do you see this working? It seems to me, given the description of the earth as a lake of fire, and the knowledge that beneath the earth's crust, which is much thinner than an egg shell comparatively (as the flood waters were underneath the earth's crust before the flood), that the fire being spoken of is molten lava. Molten lava, being composed of different material than water, is around 1200 degrees centigrade (as opposed to water, which is, of course, 100 degrees) or over 2100 degrees fahrenheit. The wicked are resurrected with the same bodies they had when they went to the grave, bodies which might exist for about 5 seconds or so in such temperatures.
There are many very good reasons why it would be impossible for such large amounts of water to coexist with molten rock enclosed by the earths crust for any time whatsoever without resulting in a catastrophe which would not only terminate all life on earth but also ensure that it would not possibly return for an unknowable amount of time. The crust of earth can't even keep the lava within without letting off preasure through volcanoes and earthquakes. Adding bilions of tons of superheated water would create a result simmilar to a death star attack from star wars.


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: To whom or what did Jesus "pay the price" for our redemption? [Re: vastergotland] #94664
01/15/08 04:45 PM
01/15/08 04:45 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
Does God do something more to keep satan alive than He does to keep anyone else alive? That including unfallen angels..


From DA 764 we read:

 Quote:
At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin.


The "this" in "understand this" is that the death of the wicked is not due to an arbitrary act of power on the part of God (previous paragraph).

In DA 107, we are told that the same thing, God's glory, both slays the wicked and gives life to the righteous. So God acts differently now towards the unfallen and fallen angels. To the unfallen angels, He reveals His glory. He can't do that to the fallen angels, or they would perish.

Regarding the flood waters being under the earth's crust, Scripture tells us that the waters burst forth from the great depths. The flood models I have seen designed by Creation scientists have the flood starting by waters erupting into the earth's atmosphere, and then descending as rain.

From EGW:

 Quote:
The men of Noah's time, in their philosophy and worldly wisdom, thought God could not destroy the world with a flood, for the waters of the ocean could not be sufficient for this. But God made the philosophy and science of men foolishness when the time had fully come to execute his word. The inspired pen describes the earth as standing out of the water and in the water. God had his weapons concealed in the bowels of the earth to compass her destruction. (ST 1/3/78)


I seem to remember a statement somewhere, similar to this, that talks about how there were those who argued that there was not enough water in the atmosphere to do the damage Noah was prophesying, but that they did not know about the waters beneath the earth's surface.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: To whom or what did Jesus "pay the price" for our redemption? [Re: Tom] #94667
01/15/08 05:33 PM
01/15/08 05:33 PM
Darius  Offline
Dedicated Member
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
Johann, is that the same being who was Satan in the beginning? The Pope is always the Pope but the individual in the office changes.


Darius A. Lecointe, J.D., Ph.D.
No weapon formed against me shall prosper.
Re: To whom or what did Jesus "pay the price" for our redemption? [Re: Tom] #94668
01/15/08 05:48 PM
01/15/08 05:48 PM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
 Originally Posted By: Tom Ewall

Regarding the flood waters being under the earth's crust, Scripture tells us that the waters burst forth from the great depths. The flood models I have seen designed by Creation scientists have the flood starting by waters erupting into the earth's atmosphere, and then descending as rain.

From EGW:

 Quote:
The men of Noah's time, in their philosophy and worldly wisdom, thought God could not destroy the world with a flood, for the waters of the ocean could not be sufficient for this. But God made the philosophy and science of men foolishness when the time had fully come to execute his word. The inspired pen describes the earth as standing out of the water and in the water. God had his weapons concealed in the bowels of the earth to compass her destruction. (ST 1/3/78)


I seem to remember a statement somewhere, similar to this, that talks about how there were those who argued that there was not enough water in the atmosphere to do the damage Noah was prophesying, but that they did not know about the waters beneath the earth's surface.
If God keept such huge amounts of water beneeth the earths crust, it is no less miraculous than had God created all the extra water specifically for the purpose of washing earth clean of life and then uncreated all the extra water again in order to give Noah and the animals land to live on.


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: To whom or what did Jesus "pay the price" for our redemption? [Re: vastergotland] #94672
01/15/08 07:15 PM
01/15/08 07:15 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
I'm not quite sure what you're saying.

Originally the earth did not have the vast oceans it has now. Much of these waters were under the earth's surface.

 Quote:
The whole earth was covered with the Flood waters, and the world that then existed was destroyed by the very waters out of which the earth had originally emerged at God's command (Genesis 1:9; 2 Peter 3:5,6). But where did those waters go after the flood?

There are a number of Scripture passages that identify the flood waters with the present-day seas (Amos 9:6 and Job 38:8-11 note “waves”). If the waters are still here, why are the highest mountains not still covered with water, as they were in Noah's day? Psalm 104 suggests an answer. After the waters covered the mountains (verse 6), God rebuked them and they fled (verse 7); the mountains rose, the valleys sank down (verse 8) and God set a boundary so that they will never again cover the earth (verse 9)[1]. They are the same waters!

Isaiah gives this same statement that the waters of Noah would never again cover the earth (Isaiah 54:9). Clearly, what the Bible is telling us is that God acted to alter the earth's topography. New continental landmasses bearing new mountain chains of folded rock strata were uplifted from below the globe-encircling waters that had eroded and leveled the pre-Flood topography, while large deep ocean basin were formed to receive and accommodate the Flood waters that then drained off the emerging continents.
Mountains & Water

That is why the oceans are so deep, and why there are folded mountain ranges. Indeed, if the entire earth's surface were leveled by smoothing out the topography of not only the land surface but also the rock surface on the ocean floor, the waters of the ocean would cover the earth's surface to a depth of 1.7 miles (2.7 kilometers). We need to remember that nearly 70 percent of the earth's surface is still covered by water. Quite clearly, then, the waters of Noah's Flood are in today's ocean basins.(http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-floodwater.html)


I also recall reading Sister White saying that after creation there were bodies of water, but not the vast oceans that we have now.

A final comment is that I'm sure the Lord did not create the waters underneath the earth's surface for the purpose of wiping man out. In the description of creation, we are told that the Spirit moved upon the face of the waters and cause dry land to be separated. We don't know the constitution of things before the flood, but evidently the water was there as an after-effect of creation.

When man sinned, the earth began to "wax old" as Romans puts it, and God has had to work to keep the earth in good condition. Many don't recognize this, but the earth is dependent upon God's active input for its well being.

 Quote:
God is constantly employed in upholding and using as His servants the things that He has made. He works through the laws of nature, using them as His instruments. They are not self-acting....

It is not by inherent power that year by year the earth yields its bounties and continues its march around the sun. The hand of the Infinite One is perpetually at work guiding this planet. It is God's power continually exercised that keeps the earth in position in its rotation. (MH 416)


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: To whom or what did Jesus "pay the price" for our redemption? [Re: Tom] #94676
01/15/08 08:09 PM
01/15/08 08:09 PM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
Just pointing out that these things do not answer to physical laws as we know them today. But maybe that is ok?


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: To whom or what did Jesus "pay the price" for our redemption? [Re: vastergotland] #94678
01/15/08 08:23 PM
01/15/08 08:23 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
I think they're in harmony with physical laws as we know them today. If you check out the web site I referenced, these are scientists (with no access to Ellen White's writings) who are trying to understand what happened in the flood, on the basis of physical laws as we know them today.

The earth may have been different, but it was operating under the same laws we know.


Tom


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: To whom or what did Jesus "pay the price" for our redemption? [Re: Tom] #94696
01/16/08 02:07 PM
01/16/08 02:07 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
 Quote:
The glory of God, which gives life to the righteous, slays the wicked. God's glory will be everywhere. As soon as God stops the intervention which allows Satan to continue living, he will die.

God could restrain His glory for ever, and could sustain Satan’s life for ever. The fact that He chooses not to do so shows that He takes the initiative to destroy sin. Sin will not destroy itself.

 Quote:
Back to the question of human beings being burned alive by fire as punishment for their sins, how do you see this working? It seems to me, given the description of the earth as a lake of fire, and the knowledge that beneath the earth's crust, which is much thinner than an egg shell comparatively (as the flood waters were underneath the earth's crust before the flood), that the fire being spoken of is molten lava. Molten lava, being composed of different material than water, is around 1200 degrees centigrade (as opposed to water, which is, of course, 100 degrees) or over 2100 degrees fahrenheit. The wicked are resurrected with the same bodies they had when they went to the grave, bodies which might exist for about 5 seconds or so in such temperatures.
So how do the wicked survive for 5 days? How does one here understand God's actions to be more like the actions of Jesus Christ then medieval torturers? If the wicked need to be punished to pay off some debt, then why not allow them to do so in a humane way? Like how Satan is tied to the earth for 1,000 years, with an opportunity to consider what he has done. That's humane. Why burn them alive for days upon end? How is this "justice"?

I don’t know how this works. We are just telling you what we read in the Bible and in Ellen White. Let’s suppose, however, that this fire refers first to the mental suffering the wicked will experience, and only afterwards, after they are dead, to the literal fire (as you seem to believe). You seem to consider that mental suffering hurts less than physical suffering. There is mental torture ("torture" in the sense I explained previously) in the lake of fire, and although it’s not inflicted, it’s permitted by God. We have evidence that the suffering involved in this mental torture is worse than in the physical torture (Ellen White says Christ’s agony was so great He barely felt the pain on the cross), or at least similar to it:

He (the sinner) will realize that because of transgression, his soul is cut off from God, and that God's wrath abides on him. This is a fire unquenchable, and by it every unrepentant sinner will be destroyed. {ST, April 14, 1898 par. 13}

Obviously this experience is very different from Satan’s reflection about his acts during the 1,000 years, which you consider a “humane punishment.” How do you see this?

Re: To whom or what did Jesus "pay the price" for our redemption? [Re: Rosangela] #94716
01/16/08 07:22 PM
01/16/08 07:22 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
 Quote:
God could restrain His glory for ever, and could sustain Satan’s life for ever. The fact that He chooses not to do so shows that He takes the initiative to destroy sin. Sin will not destroy itself.


Not and be consistent with His character, He couldn't. There's a reason that Satan still exists. He exists because there are still unresolved issues in regards to the Great Controversy. When the issues have been resolved in the minds of all of God's intelligent creatures, including Satan himself, then there will no longer be any point to artificially continuing to allow Satan to live, when by all rights he should be dead.

Satan does not have life in himself. God does not have to violently kill him in order for Satan to die.

The idea you seems reminiscent of Deism, where God winds up the universe like a clock, and just sits back and watches. But all things depend upon the active participation of God, even inanimate things.

 Quote:
God is constantly employed in upholding and using as His servants the things that He has made. He works through the laws of nature, using them as His instruments. They are not self-acting....

It is not by inherent power that year by year the earth yields its bounties and continues its march around the sun. The hand of the Infinite One is perpetually at work guiding this planet. It is God's power continually exercised that keeps the earth in position in its rotation....

The mechanism of the human body cannot be fully understood; it presents mysteries that baffle the most intelligent. It is not as the result of a mechanism, which, once set in motion, continues its work, that the pulse beats and breath follows breath. In God we live and move and have our being. The beating heart, the throbbing pulse, every nerve and muscle in the living organism, is kept in order and activity by the power of an ever-present God. (MH 416, 417)


Even the earth is dependent upon God in order to maintain its position. How much more are living beings dependent upon God in order to have life.

The assertion that sin will not destroy itself is contrary to logic. Sin is disobedience the law, contrary to the law of life for the universe:

 Quote:
But turning from all lesser representations, we behold God in Jesus. Looking unto Jesus we see that it is the glory of our God to give. "I do nothing of Myself," said Christ; "the living Father hath sent Me, and I live by the Father." "I seek not Mine own glory," but the glory of Him that sent Me. John 8:28; 6:57; 8:50; 7:18. In these words is set forth the great principle which is the law of life for the universe. (DA 21)


To act contrary to the principles of life, which is encapsulated in self-sacrificing love, is to die. The only reason we do not see more of the destructive power of sin is because of the grace of God.

 Quote:
We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. (GC 36)


When the angels of God stop holding back the winds of strife, we will see the destructive power of sin.

It is in mercy, as Ellen White points out, that the final destruction takes place quickly. If God acted as you suggested, continuing to artificially keep beings alive who should be dead, they would have to be kept in prison cells in order to keep from killing each other.

The fact that sin does not destroy itself is due to the grace of God, and not due to a lack of destructiveness that sin inherently has.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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