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Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #195288
12/29/22 01:47 AM
12/29/22 01:47 AM
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As we approach verse 40 -- this is where it gets interesting, yet because it is future we need to tread carefully, and not get too narrow in our thinking.

s it still literal, or does the chapter now switch to spiritual?
One thing -- it needs to fit in with the rest of the prophecies in Daniel and Revelation.


11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.


Who are the players here?

First who is the "him" against which the king of the south pushes? We know that the focus has been on the papacy which has been using kings to enforce it's policies for most of the last half of Daniel 11.
But in 1798 the papal power was stripped of it's armies (the kings wouldn't fight and enforce his policies any longer} The beast has been wounded and stripped of it's armies. Also the kings themselves lost their kingly power as well about the same time.

Some suggest this verse (Daniel 11:40) is speaking of three powers,
1. the (him)
2. the king of the south and
3. the king of the north.

Comparing this with Rev. 17 it's very possible the "him" is the same power as the harlot in Rev. 17, basically the religious side of the papal power. In Rev. 17 the papal power is depicted in two symbols.
The kings, (the horns) which supported the papal power previous to the time of the end are seen without their crowns in the first part of Rev. 17.
In Rev. 17:8 the beast that was, then was not, but is again, reappears.

In verses Daniel 11:38-39 prior to the time of the end, the antecedent "he" is honoring the god of forces, (countries ruled by kings with strong armies) and offers them financial support and arranges things to increase their power. This he did prior to the time of the end.

So Daniel 11:40 the "him" who is most likely typified as the harlot in Rev. 17 is facing big problems from the king of the south, and is able to mount the beast. In Rev. 17, the harlot is sitting on the beast ( symbolic of the restored position of the king of the north) once again the power of the beast -- the king of the north is once again "healed" and ready for battle.

With "kings" (especially American and Europen rulers) once again lending their armies to enforce papal policies and mandates the "he" and the king of the north are again one and the same power. The king of the north is "healed" and we have the whirlwind with chariots (airplanes) and horsemen ( tanks etc) and many ships enforcing the papal solutions, with power, on the world.

That healing, by the way, is almost completed as we read.



Now we just need to locate the king of the south.

I

Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #195305
01/04/23 02:53 AM
01/04/23 02:53 AM
dedication  Online Content

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I'd like to go back to look again at verse 36 and onward.

Verses 31 to 35 of Daniel 11, definitely refer to the 1260 years of papal primacy, with very clear connections to Daniel 7 and 8's depiction of the same.. The attack was on God's covenant, God's sanctuary, and God's people..

Modern Adventist scholars tend to refer to vs. 36-39 as continuing to describe the papal power, suggesting these verse describe the attitude of the papal power, while the previous verses 31-35 describe the actions of the papal power.

But what if these verses are witnessing the papal's position to be the subject after 1798 .
In verse 11:35 We a have statement concerning time.
And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them and to purge them and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

We are living in the time of the end.

What happens in the "time of the end"?
Daniel 7:25 prophesied that:
He (the papal power) shall speak pompous word against the Most High, shall persecute the saints of the Most High, and shall intend to change times and law, then the saints shall be given into his hand for a time and times and half a time, (1260 day/years) BUT THE COURT SHALL BE SEATED, AND THEY SHALL TAKE AWAY HIS DOMINION.".

That dominion was taken away in 1798. The "beast" received a fatal wound, But it was the "beast" or political power of the papal church that was fatally wounded, the Catholic church continued, as a world wide church.
But even though the deadly wound was inflicted in 1798, even though the heavenly judgement began in 1844, "the time of the end" is not the end of time. We will see yet another Power arising; Revelation 11:7 says a "beast from the bottomless pit" arises after the two witnesses have prophesied for 1260 years. We also have the ultimate blasphemies proclaimed from papal chair.

n spite of the fact that papal primacy over all churches was taken away by Napoleon?s new laws, and the papacy's political influence was stripped away; the papacy made some of it's most blasphemies moves after 1798.

To counteract the terrible "wound" inflicted by the removal of their LEGAL AUTHORITY to control the masses of Europe, the papacy now seeks to regain authority by passing church dogmas proclaiming themselves equal to God Himself! Claiming the prerogatives of God, was nothing new for the papacy, but now it reached new heights. As papal power waned, papal pretensions increased.

Pope Pius IX's called for the convening of the First Vatican Council on December 8, 1869.
In July 18, 1870, the Council promulgated the dogma of Papal Infallibility.
The Council also asserted papal primacy. In July 1870, it issued the Dogmatic constitution Pastor aeternus, defining four doctrines of the Catholic faith: the apostolic primacy conferred on Peter, the perpetuity of this primacy in the Roman pontiffs, the meaning and power of the papal primacy, and Papal infallibility.

Obviously the government of Italy was not very impressed by this announcement for just two months later, on September 20, 1870, Victor Emmanuel II, King of Sardinia and later first King of a united Italy, captured Rome and took over the States of the Church, removing the last claims to political authority from the papacy.

To understand the background of this move here's a bit of history:
Napoleon had declared Italy a republic, and made himself the "king", the Church was stripped of its privileges, its property confiscated. And, even though it was propped up again by Napoleon, it was treated as just another church in his kingdom. With the collapse of the Napoleonic Empire in 1814, the states of the Italian peninsula were reconstituted under the domination of Austria. At the Congress of Vienna most of the papal states were given back to the papacy. The Austrians attempted to restore the old regime. Italy was divided into nine divisions, one of which was the Papal states. Pope Pius VII sought to re-establish the semi-feudal ecclesiastical rule the papacy had enjoyed prior to 1798, including the restoration of the Jesuits which had been suppressed in 1773.
Victor Emmanuel I of Piedmont (not the same as Victor Emmanuel II) returned in 1814 hoping to restore the old regime even to the return of exiled officials who were holding office before the upset in 1798. The Jesuits order was re-established in 1814, and was cordially welcomed as a means of getting people back under the authority of pope. Religious toleration was denied, secret police were used to squelch any "liberty, equality, fraternity" talk, and force was reasserted.

The result was A REVOLUTION-- the people had tasted freedom and they did not want the old regime back.

So yes, there was much unrest and fighting in the years that followed, as the pope and the Austrians tried to re-institute the old ways, and the people fought for their freedom. In 1832 Pope Pius IX wrote a scathing denunciation in which he denounced the separation of Church and state, denounced liberty of the press as abominable and detestable and demanded submission to the encyclical (Mirari Vos). He was fighting to regain his lost primacy! Put thankfully, the old ways did not succeed in re-establishing themselves. As we have seen, the very year the pope exalted himself, he lost the last vestige of temporal authority. The Italian troops marched into Rome in 1870 and the citizens voted, by a majority of 134,000 to 1500, for incorporation into the Italian Kingdom-- obviously the fear of excommunication no longer control the population.

Thus in spite of the papacy's blasphemous declarations of infallibility it was clearly confirmed that the LEGAL control of the papacy over the people was gone-- it had ended in 1798

Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #195306
01/04/23 04:51 PM
01/04/23 04:51 PM
Daryl  Offline

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Posts: 25,010
Nova Scotia, Canada
Thank you for that interesting piece of history.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #195307
01/05/23 03:18 AM
01/05/23 03:18 AM
dedication  Online Content

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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 5,821
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The thing that struck me while studying some of this is that the battle to re-establish the semi-feudal regime is not just history, it is coming back in full force. And with it the "wound" will be healed, control will be re-established.

The feudal system that brought the dark ages and held that darkness over the people for many centuries, was based on people existing in mainly three levels. Ecclesiastical, the Nobles, and the common peasants.
There were the warrior nobility who were given land when they fulfilled certain military obligations. There was also a whole network of dioceses ruled by arch bishops, bishops and abbots . Then there were the commoners who became the vassals, these were people who were given responsibility for a piece of land, under the control of the nobility or lord. The land was known as a fief. In exchange for the use of the fief and protection by the lord, the vassal would provide some sort of services to the lord. It was a system where the more elite nobility had considerable control over the lower classes, and often exploited them.

When the elite get the ownership of the land and all resources, the rest become servants and vassals, at the mercy of the controlling elite. It was part of the system during the middle ages, and many are the warnings that things are being contrived to move the population into that mode again.

The next verses in Daniel 11 show the king of the North fighting to establish control once again. The more I look into it, the broader this subject seems to be.

Daniel 11:39 Then shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain.

Honoring the god of forces (vs 38) he divides the land into hierarchical systems to bring many under the rule of a few. From each of these divisions, according to their size and productivity, flows the profits "gains" into the hands of the few.

In Revelation 18 Babylon the Great is described as a great commercial system seeking gain trafficking in the souls of men.

Re: The King of the North [Re: Rick H] #195404
01/30/23 05:44 PM
01/30/23 05:44 PM
dedication  Online Content

Global Moderator
5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 5,821
Canada
In spite of the papacy's blasphemous declarations of infallibility it was clearly confirmed that the LEGAL control of the papacy over the people was gone-- it had ended in 1798

But in verse 40 things have changed. The papacy finds new military support, especially from the most powerful nation on earth.
They will seek to control, and move into what will look like defensive action at first, but will progress into aggressive action that finally resorts to massive violence.
But they will NOT win!

Jesus, Michael the leader of the whole heavenly hosts will stand up and deliver His people.

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