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Re: Does polygame violate the 7th commandment?
[Re: Tom]
#100229
06/26/08 05:01 AM
06/26/08 05:01 AM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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GC, here's an explanation of what "fundamentalist" means: Fundamentalist interpretation starts from the principle that the Bible, being the word of God, inspired and free from error, should be read and interpreted literally in all its details.(http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/PBCINTER.htm)
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Does polygame violate the 7th commandment?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#100232
06/26/08 05:28 AM
06/26/08 05:28 AM
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By GC: On the contrary, had Abraham NOT known Christ, he would never have passed the test. Clearly, it was a test. The New Testament which you seem to prefer over the Old, says God does not tempt. Therefore, God was NOT tempting Abraham...do we agree on that point? Once again, your New Testament says: "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?...Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God." Why do you think that I prefer the NT over the OT? Without the OT there is no objective prophetic evidence that Jesus is the Messiah. Without the OT Jesus would not have known His role to play in salvation. I’m saying exactly what Paul said in 2 Corinthians 3:12-16: 12Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold.
13We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at it while the radiance was fading away.
14But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away.
15Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts.
16But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. The NT is not inspiration to be added to the OT. It is a fulfillment of the OT, a new covenant, the message of the kingdom of God in the heart of the believer. The book of Hebrews makes this very clear showing Jesus as “better than” angels, Moses, Aaron, the earthly priesthood, the sacrifice, the author of a better covenant based on better promises. My question is why do you see them as equal when the NT claims to be the fulfillment of the Old Covenant that couldn’t be fully understood until Christ? Do you not believe the NT? scott
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Re: Does polygame violate the 7th commandment?
[Re: Tom]
#100233
06/26/08 05:39 AM
06/26/08 05:39 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2021
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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I recognize that we may be straying some from a direct conversation about polygamy, but I feel that we are getting deeper to the core of the issue, whereas polygamy is just a surface issue. Therefore, this discussion is getting the more interesting.
My point is that your interpretation of "moral" may be just your own opinion. My interpretation of "moral" is that morality is defined by the law of God (10 commandments, the moral law). I'm pretty sure this is not just my own opinion. And MountainMan brought us Ellen White's statements regarding the law of Moses being given to further clarify those 10 principles. Yet, somehow, you have tried to say that this additional light, given by God Himself to Moses, was essentially outdated, or turned into darkness, by the coming of Jesus. But the way I understand the scriptures, this can by no means be! Ellen White has given us counsel to beware of those who would thus try to turn light into darkness:
I want to tell you, brethren, there are debaters among us. I warned them in Minneapolis never to put a minister in a Conference by the side of a debater. For the last twenty years the light has shown upon me in regard to debaters. They will turn light into darkness. . . . {8MR 279.2}
These are serious times we live in now. I do not trust my own judgment to be sufficient. I hold up the scriptures here, in their entirety, as the only safe standard of truth. As the song says... "Give me that 'old time religion'...it's good enough for me!" The only scripture that Jesus used, quoted, and told us to study, is still the majority of our Bibles today. It was, is, and always will be the truth and a revelation of God's character to us. Christ's example in hiding it in His heart is ours to follow. Another interpretation of "moral" I would accept is that "moral" is how Christ lived. I'm also pretty sure this is not just my own opinion. When I think of what is moral and what isn't, I think in these terms. What does the moral law say? What did Christ say? How did Christ live? Was it immoral of David to kill Goliath? In other words, I don't believe that any of the those was immoral. If God commands, we must obey, and to obey is the ONLY morally-correct choice we can make, for God does not lie, nor deceive. This was Scott's point. God commanded Moses to allow Him to destroy Israel and make him (Moses) the leader of a new nation. But Moses disobeyed. Was Moses being immoral? It seems by what you're saying here, Moses acted immorally in persuading God not to destroy Israel. Yet it seems clear to me that Moses acted in harmony with how Christ would have acted. Did God truly "command" Moses thus? I beg to differ. You change the Word of God to suit your own purposes. As you have said to MountainMan, so say I to you now: Quote the scripture! Quote the scripture! Quote the scripture! When we do things FOR GOD'S HONOR, in obedience to His voice, we cannot go wrong, no matter what our fallible human reasoning may try to tell us. Sure we can go wrong. Catholics tortured and burned heretics for God's honor, and to save the souls of the one's they were torturing. They erred because they did not understand God's character nor His principles. You have here deliberately misrepresented my words. You ignored this portion of my statement, but it was important: "in obedience to His voice...." I do not accept that those you speak of here did so under Divine mandate. We can be thankful that Abraham did not spoil the lesson for future generations by reasoning that surely God did not mean what He said in telling him to kill his only son, the child of promise!
To answer an earlier question, yes, I believe God commanded genocide. This isn't really what I was asking. I asked if the things I cited were moral acts. To interpret any other way is rather difficult when the Bible expressly gives us this historical record. Again, the reason behind it is of paramount importance. God was merely using the children of Israel to execute judgment on those who had filled their cup with iniquities. How do you explain God acting so differently than Jesus Christ? Jesus Christ said we should love our enemies, but you see God as killing them instead. How do you see the destruction of Jerusalem? Did God use the Romans to execute judgment upon them because they had filled their cup with iniquities? Here is where you and I differ: I see God as being wiser than I. I see God as having the authority, the discretion, and the capacity to execute justice and judgment in whatever way He sees fit, without me judging God for the morality of His actions. Having said that, I see great wisdom in God's acts of justice. The flood was commissioned by God to cleanse the earth of its wickedness. Any judgment against sinners in the times following have been for the same reason. One's focus here might be placed upon God's great mercy, love, and care for the innocent, the oppressed, and the righteous, in removing from them the menace of the wicked. If God does not listen to the cries of His children, how "moral" or righteous would that seem? Tom, I understand that you believe God never destroys anyone. Not just me! God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself. Everyone who stifles the admonitions of conscience is sowing the seeds of unbelief, and these will produce a sure harvest.(COL 84) Satan is the destroyer; the Lord is the Restorer. (Christ Triumphant 239) You believe that they are destroyed by the devil, or that they have self-destructed by their own sins. You feel that God merely "allows" this. Your view of God may change one day, but whether or not it does, I cannot accept this view--for it is unbiblical. It depends upon how one interprets Scripture. According to Scripture, Jesus was the perfect manifestation of God's character. According to EGW, the whole purpose of Christ's mission was the revelation of God. If we accept these principles, it's not difficult to see how God's judgment operates. There are tons of examples of this principle in Scripture. I've already asked you about one, the destruction of Jerusalem. Another example would be when God sent fiery serpents upon the Israelites to destroy them. What happened here? Do you know who was the very first being to kill? Yes. Satan. And who/what did Satan kill first? Blessings, Green Cochoa
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Does polygame violate the 7th commandment?
[Re: Tom]
#100234
06/26/08 05:45 AM
06/26/08 05:45 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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GC, here's an explanation of what "fundamentalist" means: Fundamentalist interpretation starts from the principle that the Bible, being the word of God, inspired and free from error, should be read and interpreted literally in all its details.(http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/PBCINTER.htm) Thank you, Tom! I appreciate your helpfulness in clarifying that term. Now, if I may clarify my own position, based upon that definition, I'm quite far from being a fundamentalist! On the contrary, I see depth in the symbols of the Bible that would make the average Daniel & Revelation Seminar appear mild. I oppose the classic "exegetical" view that only those two books should be interpreted symbolically. I have found much symbolism in Genesis, the Levitical ordinances, Psalms, all of the major prophets, most of the minor prophets, and in anything spoken by Jesus. I daresay there's hardly a book in the Bible without some symbolic value which would be missed if a strictly literal approach to scripture were taken. Hmmm....was there some symbolic value to the polygamy?  Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Does polygame violate the 7th commandment?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#100235
06/26/08 05:45 AM
06/26/08 05:45 AM
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By GC: It matters not to me how you choose to label me. You label me as a "fundamentalist." I'm not sure even what is meant by this term, except that you imply that you have a superior perspective or position. I don't personally hold to any particular view of scriptures which you are likely to be able to put a label upon. My interpretations of scriptures are based only upon the scriptures themselves, and not upon traditional interpretations of them. I would go so far, in fact, as to decry the use of the term "exegesis," for I have found that this term is frequently used to limit one's view to an understanding of God's Word to a very narrow scope. God is not so easily reined in, and His Word is rich beyond our finite imaginations. It can speak simply, at a child's level; and it can speak deep, fathomless mysteries, which scholars may study for eternity. Actually I said you had a fundamentalist view of the scriptures. That might or might not make you a fundamentalist depending on how far you take it. No one likes to be labeled and I don’t mean to put you in a box. I’m sure you have your unique views that you consider your personal revelation. My observation is based on how you are unwilling to consider the scriptures as anything other than literal. Did you know that the Jews down through history didn’t believe in a personal fallen angel that is at war with God? They believed, and still do believe, that every event that takes place is mandated by God and that all the evil that befalls man is God’s doing according to his direct and commanded dictate. All angels that we think of that cause evil for mankind are doing it at God’s command to test us. This is the context that the OT was written in! The very first thing that Jesus established when His ministry began was to be driven into the wilderness to face the Adversary. Jesus gave us the Great Controversy understanding of Satan and the war going on between good and evil. scott
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Re: Does polygame violate the 7th commandment?
[Re: scott]
#100236
06/26/08 05:51 AM
06/26/08 05:51 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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My question is why do you see them as equal when the NT claims to be the fulfillment of the Old Covenant that couldn’t be fully understood until Christ? Do you not believe the NT?
scott
I simply do not believe your interpretation of that portion of Paul's writings which you have quoted. I interpret that differently, but it would be a lengthy discussion to explain it, for it enters the entire controversy of old versus new covenants. Many people misunderstand Paul. Of all the Bible authors, more questions and misunderstandings seem to come from his writings. I could point out to you that Paul was obviously not a perfectionist, and was somewhat careless in some of his writing. That said, I think it's a little unsound to focus inordinately on a particular word or phrase. With Paul, we must focus on the general thought or idea he is trying to express. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Does polygame violate the 7th commandment?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#100237
06/26/08 06:00 AM
06/26/08 06:00 AM
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GC, here's an explanation of what "fundamentalist" means: Fundamentalist interpretation starts from the principle that the Bible, being the word of God, inspired and free from error, should be read and interpreted literally in all its details.(http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/PBCINTER.htm) Thank you, Tom! I appreciate your helpfulness in clarifying that term. Now, if I may clarify my own position, based upon that definition, I'm quite far from being a fundamentalist! On the contrary, I see depth in the symbols of the Bible that would make the average Daniel & Revelation Seminar appear mild. I oppose the classic "exegetical" view that only those two books should be interpreted symbolically. I have found much symbolism in Genesis, the Levitical ordinances, Psalms, all of the major prophets, most of the minor prophets, and in anything spoken by Jesus. I daresay there's hardly a book in the Bible without some symbolic value which would be missed if a strictly literal approach to scripture were taken. Hmmm....was there some symbolic value to the polygamy? Blessings, Green Cochoa. Hi GC, A fundamentalist doesn’t have a problem with symbols. They know Jesus wasn't a real lamb and that the High Priest represented Jesus. A fundamentalist sees the bible as being funneled down directly from God, as being dictated by him, as not being affected by the human agent or possible even reflecting the human agents cultural and religious back ground. They believe that God is represented in every word and that every word is God's. scott
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Re: Does polygame violate the 7th commandment?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#100238
06/26/08 06:08 AM
06/26/08 06:08 AM
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My question is why do you see them as equal when the NT claims to be the fulfillment of the Old Covenant that couldn’t be fully understood until Christ? Do you not believe the NT?
scott
I simply do not believe your interpretation of that portion of Paul's writings which you have quoted. I interpret that differently, but it would be a lengthy discussion to explain it, for it enters the entire controversy of old versus new covenants. Many people misunderstand Paul. Of all the Bible authors, more questions and misunderstandings seem to come from his writings. I could point out to you that Paul was obviously not a perfectionist, and was somewhat careless in some of his writing. That said, I think it's a little unsound to focus inordinately on a particular word or phrase. With Paul, we must focus on the general thought or idea he is trying to express. Blessings, Green Cochoa. Ok then! Let's have at it. I have time! 2 Corinthians 3:
1 Do we begin again to commend ourselves? Or do we need, as some others, epistles of commendation to you or letters of commendation from you?
2 You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read by all men;
3 clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart.
4 And we have such trust through Christ toward God.
5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God,
6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,
8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?
9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory.
10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels.
11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.
12 Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech—
13 unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away.
14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ.
15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart.
16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord. Let's not focus on a word or a phrase, but on Paul's context. What is Paul saying to you! scott
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Re: Does polygame violate the 7th commandment?
[Re: scott]
#100239
06/26/08 06:20 AM
06/26/08 06:20 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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Scott has committed the logical fallacy of starting with a false premise. The false premise he has used is this: "God may command us to do something immoral." I would invite anyone here to show me from Scripture even one instance of God doing this.
And Abraham is in God's Hall of Fame...
Blessings,
Green Cochoa I always thought that morality was defined by the law? Does God position and power place Him outside the law or is the law a transcript of His character? Therefore when the law says "Thou shalt not murder it is a simply statement saying, "It isn't in God's character to murder! God doesn't murder!" Hi GC, I believe the false premise is yours. If God created you a free moral agent and tells you to jump off a cliff then the jumping is your fault, not His! Maybe He will suspend gravity or not, but that's up to Him. Coming to God is not a voluntary revocation of our freedom, but a restoration of our freedom. The best way for God to show us the deepest sin in our hearts is to give us permission to act immorally and believe that we are carrying out God's will while all the time acting according to our own desire. The truth is a two edged sword that exposes the sin in our lives. Don't you think that the safest place to live for eternity is with individuals who wouldn't sin against me even if God told them too? scott Scott, You have again started with a false premise. That word "if" presupposes a possibility. I don't believe in the possibility you postulate. Therefore, there is no "if" when it comes to God asking me to do something immoral. It will not, and cannot happen! The bolded sentence in that second paragraph is an eye-opener. Ouch! Read it again, and tell me that you really said that. God has NEVER given permission to act immorally! When God commands, we are always safe to obey. If obedience were ever unsafe, please tell me how you would be able to distinguish? The only way you could possibly answer this is to set your judgment above God's! As for jumping off a cliff, if I knew it was God telling me to do this, I would do it. Obeying God is safer than the alternative. This reminds me of...
The road seemed to ascend; on one side there was a deep precipice, and on the other, a high, smooth wall. As they journeyed, the road narrowed, causing them to leave their wagons and then their horses. As the perilous path narrowed, they took off their shoes. However, along the way they found ropes, representing faith, let down; these increased in size as they progressed. Finally they reached a chasm, beyond which was a beautiful field of green grass. To get there, they had to rely wholly upon the ropes; by these they could swing to the other side. In whispers the travelers inquired, "To what is the cord attached?" Hesitating and distressed, they heard the words "God holds the cords. We need not fear." James first swung across the abyss and Ellen followed, and they were safely on the other side, praising God and perfectly happy (2T, pp. 594-597).
Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Does polygame violate the 7th commandment?
[Re: scott]
#100240
06/26/08 06:37 AM
06/26/08 06:37 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2021
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Joined: Apr 2008
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The Orient
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Let's not focus on a word or a phrase, but on Paul's context. What is Paul saying to you!
scott
He's saying that people have not been open-minded enough to see the truths contained in the scriptures, including the books of Moses. He's saying that even after Jesus came to help them see more clearly, they still filter those timeless truths through the "veil" in front of their eyes. This prevents them from seeing the greater light that they might have recognized in those writings. Paul's words are still true today. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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